General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe Government and Businesses Have Files on Everyone!!!111!
The NSA metadata collection thing has alarmed many people, and many articles are discussing the government's collection of information about citizens of the US. Most people don't think about other ways the government keeps records on everyone, though, and they are extensive. Here's a partial list of government agencies who store and have access to huge amounts of information on everyone in the country:
Internal Revenue Service - This agency has a great deal of information, including your Social Security information, a record of every place you have ever lived, every place you have ever worked, and how much you were paid at every job you have had. These records are maintained with no limits on time and extend back as far as your first job, no matter how old you are. Old paper records have been converted to data.
Social Security Administration - Like the IRS, this agency has a complete record of your employment, throughout your life. It knows who you worked for, how much you earned, and almost certainly has a copy of your birth certificate if you've interacted with them anytime recently.
US Military - If you served in the US Military, complete records of your service are maintained forever. Those records include your Social Security information, and everything connected with your military service.
FBI - If you have ever had a security clearance or have been arrested for a misdemeanor or felony, the FBI has a file on you. There also may be a file if you have ever participated in political activism. How much is in that file depends on your life history. Your fingerprints are almost certainly on file with the FBI if you have ever been fingerprinted.
State Department - Have a passport? If so, you have a file with the US State Department. It contains information required for you to obtain a passport, including your birth certificate, SS#, and more. In addition, records are maintained of any international travel you have done.
Selective Service Administration - If you are a male and over the age of 18, you have a file with this agency.
State Income Tax Organization - If your state uses income taxes to collect revenue, the state has all of the information the IRS has for as long as you have been a resident.
State Driver's Licence Organization - If you have a driver's license or own an automobile, these agencies have records on file for you, including detailed vehicle information, any traffic violations you have had, and any other information related to vehicle ownership and driving record. Records include your Social Security number, photos of you at various ages, and biometric information.
State Fish & Game Organization - If you hunt or fish, these organizations in whatever state where you have done so maintain files on you. Those files now include your Social Security Number, Driver's License number and biometric information you have supplied.
County Clerks & Recorders - From birth certificates, marriage records, deeds, mortgages, legal judgments, and other information, the counties where you have lived during your life maintain a file. For identification, your Social Security number is used. This information is accessible by data miners, credit bureaus, and others on payment of a small fee.
Law Enforcement Agencies - All interactions with these organizations are included in the data they store about you. Have you reported criminal activity? There's a file. Traffic accidents, arrests, being fingerprinted for employment, and many other interactions will open a file that can be accessed. Criminal background checks include this information, and are available for a fee for those authorized to run that check.
Schools & Colleges - Public school systems maintain records of your attendance, grades, disciplinary actions, and more. Any colleges you attended also maintain files that include a great deal of information about you. Accessibility of these records varies.
Other Governmental Agencies - Any governmental agency you have had any interaction with maintains records of those interactions. The amount of data collected and stored varies.
Non-Government Organizations - Everyone keeps files on you if you have had any interactions with them. Banks, credit issuers and credit reporting companies store the most information, but every business, too, maintains as much data as they can collect on you. If you provide personal information on any website, that information is stored and often sold, traded, and made available to others by the owners of those websites. You have volunteered the information, and agreed to that website's terms of service and privacy policy statement, whether you read those or not.
Your medical information, too, has wide circulation. Every clinic you visit, every hospital you go to, and your health insurance provider have complete medical records on you, or can obtain them. You have signed papers allowing this, and the information is shared widely among health care organizations.
Do you participate in online polls? They exist to gather data on those who participate. Their business model is to sell that data to others. Google, Facebook, Yahoo, and every other search engine and social media company make their livings by providing your data to others. That data may include your internet use habits and much more. And each entity they provide data to also creates a file on you, including that personal data.
Bottom line: Every time you provide any information about yourself, it is stored as data connected to you, and can end up in the files of places you have never even heard of. Even they have your data.
There are literally thousands of files maintained containing your personal data. Thousands. Once they are created, they become permanent. It is impossible to remove your data from most of them, even if you know they exist. Most of the time, you won't even know they exist.
Pholus
(4,062 posts)Having concerns with the federation of disparate databases by a central authority combined with the automated tabulation of information about your comings and goings as well as your communications in order to determine (via automated "big data" inspired analyses) your general loyalty to the country in the absence of reasonable suspicion
is supposed to be taken as
a hatred of administrative record keeping in general.
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)I draw no real conclusion about this data collection and storage. It exists because we participate in a technological society that has the capability of collecting, storing, and accessing that data.
We agree to that collection and storage on a regular basis. Those are facts.
Pholus
(4,062 posts)MineralMan
(146,333 posts)it's important to know who is collecting what data and creating databases that can be searched.
The NSA is just one agency, and the data they're collecting on most people is actually pretty minimal, compared to what is already on file at all sorts of places.
Pholus
(4,062 posts)Because it sounds like we might have found a waste of taxpayer money in Utah if they don't actually need 100,000 square feet of server space.
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)metadata is all that is being collected. Further data collection requires additional court action. Data about who called whom is minimal information. In actual fact, most of it is ignored. Only when there are connections of interest does anything go further. That's my understanding of it. There's lots of speculation, but those are the facts from the actual documents released.
I can't really speak to the Utah data center issue. Handling enormous amounts of raw data, even if it's just who called whom takes a lot of storage and processing power. The NSA also deals with many other sources of raw data, internationally. Of that I'm certain, because of my own background. That's the agency's primary mission, and it's an extensive network of international data collection, probably beyond even what I can imagine.
For the individual, the real concern should be who has collected much more information that makes a person vulnerable. For that, business is more to worry about than the NSA, which is simply not interested in the day to day lives of people in the US. They're really not.
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)nt
Aerows
(39,961 posts)even if you are just in crisis and need someone to talk to. It's amazing how many people don't realize how intrusive this could be on your personal and medical history.
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)my doing so would be part of my credit card data. But I didn't. So, you don't know that I did, because I didn't.
Every transaction you make, basically, is recorded, logged, and is data about you. Is that a good thing? No. Awareness of it, however, is a very good thing.
The reality is that even if you don't pay to do something like view porn sites, your visit is noted and logged into a database somewhere. Google does it. Even if you're using Google Chrome's hidden mode, Google still tracks your web traffic. It just doesn't store it on your computer in your browser history. That you went someplace, though, is still part of Google's data.
The only way to keep data from being recorded about your internet activities is to not use the internet. Your IP address is logged everywhere, from DU to some porn site. Eventually, it gets connected to you directly. Even if you use a proxy host, your IP address is recorded at the proxy host.
Privacy is a myth, and it's not just the government. Everyone keeps data. It's a valuable commodity. That's why you don't pay money for all of those services. You pay with your data.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)You have been the victim of a sexual assault. You call a sexual assault hotline. Do you want everyone in the world to know that? Do you think your family wants that to come to light? Do you think that in a difficult time you deserve no privacy between you and a therapist, even if it is only that you called them?
Who has the right to that information?
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)Are they even interested? I maintain that the people who might possibly have access to that information have no interest whatever in your crisis. I don't remember hearing about any cases where such information has been made public by any government agency. Why would they? It's not their mission to do so, so they don't really give a crap.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Everyone in government has an interest in leverage. Don't even pretend that they don't.
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)I think this is straying from the point of this thread, so I'm not going to take it any further.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Because you realize that it is a huge intrusion on privacy. It really doesn't stray from the point of the thread, because it is *exactly* the point of the thread. You don't want people to know every time you go to the doctor, the attorney or the therapist - or hell, the mistress. Nobody does. That reveals too much personal information. We all have struggles and we all have sins.
Pholus
(4,062 posts)Nice to know since that seems at odds with the description of why he was considered brilliant for the "Real Time Regional Gateway." And it would seem strange that he'd be promoted to a position where he would be allowed less data to play with.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/for-nsa-chief-terrorist-threat-drives-passion-to-collect-it-all/2013/07/14/3d26ef80-ea49-11e2-a301-ea5a8116d211_story.html
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)all of these stories in depth. Truly they are not. In fact, most people are depending on third parties to analyze all the information and interpret it. Not all of those third parties, even, have actually understood the details. That's how it always is.
The publicly disclosed limitations on what the NSA can collect and what checks and balances are in place are generally not fully described in the interpreted news. You really have to dig. When you do, it's very interesting.
Metadata is only useful when it links to other data. For the overwhelming majority of people, no such links exist, and the NSA is simply not interested.
Pholus
(4,062 posts)Given my manual dexterity, if it is something that I could do with my own two hands, I do not consider it particularly good.
When it comes to analysis of data, if it is something that I can see how to do easily I consider it being already done.
If the NSA is NOT linking metadata I guess they should hire my services. I promise to charge only what Booz Allen does or maybe even a little less.
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)have no relevance to their mission. They do not have the resources needed to bother with anything that doesn't relate to their mission, and so that stuff is discarded. That's what I'd do, too.
I do understand data. That's one of the reasons for my lack of concern about this. Very few things are of any interest to the NSA. Very few, indeed.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)that was sexually assaulted and sought help over a hotline, would you want people to have records of that they can use against your child, you, or your family? There is a reason why rape crisis hotlines are anonymous, but someone is recording them because it is a 1-800 number on Verizon, therefore a business number.
There is probably everyone in the damn world recording words with attorneys of high profile clients. That doesn't even unsettle you a bit?
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)First, the hotline almost certainly has caller ID access. The crisis hotline where I used to volunteer had that, and it was used very occasionally when a suicide caller really needed emergency services. As for third parties obtaining information about the call, I'm not really sure who would be interested who might have access to that information. The NSA would not be interested, and would not even find the data about the call until long after it was made. But they wouldn't be interested in any case, since it has nothing whatsoever to do with that agency's mission.
Verizon is not interested in your daughter or son's call, either. They're interested in billing you for the call, and that's where their interest ends. They have a lot of safeguards built-in, too, to prevent employees from intercepting calls or call information. I'm not seeing how anyone who might be interested in such a hotline call would have access to it.
As for high-profile clients and their conversations with attorneys, both are very aware of the need for confidentiality, and use measures to prevent access to those conversations. If such access was easy, we'd be hearing about compromised cases from time to time. We're not hearing about that, though. Now, there is the phone tapping done by one British news agency, and that's a matter of real concern, but has nothing to do with government access and more to do with poor security on the part of those whose phones were tapped.
In fact, when some sort of communications interception actually takes place, we tend to hear about it, if it involves private organizations. If legal cases are compromised, we hear about it. If hackers steal confidential data, we hear about it, usually.
Cui Bono? Who benefits? The instance you bring up raises that question. Who might benefit from access to the information that your son or daughter calls a hotline? Does that person or do those persons have the capability? Ask those two questions and you'll have your answer. Those who have the capability do not have any interest and would not benefit. Those who might benefit do not have the capability.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)When there is a FISA court warrant to wholesale collect data on 12 million people. Fish enough, you will get a big tuna.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)And at the end, Cui Bono? You are not naive, and neither am I. It takes very little to connect the dots.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Is that what you are saying? Nuance is one thing, but flat out calling everyone that questions to security state is saying that we need not question anything. I disagree with that.
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)they use government data and their own data to make money. A lot of it is without consent.
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)If you actually read everything you signed, you'd know that you have provided consent to the original collector of data. The permission you signed allows the owner of the data to do with it whatever you agreed that they could do with it.
Go look at the privacy policies of the websites you frequent, along with their terms of service. You already agreed with those and probably even clicked a box that said that you read and understood those documents. In almost no case does anyone actually read and understand the policies they have agreed to.
The same applies to many places. At some point, you have given consent, even if you don't remember doing so. Credit cards, store loyalty programs, and many other things you accept have such statements that you agreed to.
Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)many people don't read the 'fine print'
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)Instead, the papers they sign say that they have read it. Same with web sites. The little box you check that says you agree to the terms of service for the web site always has a link to those terms of service. If people don't read, but sign anyhow, whose fault is that?
I don't read them all, because I've read some of them, and they all pretty much say the same thing. They're gathering your personal information and data of how you use the website and can and will share that information with others under circumstances they describe in their documentation. We agree to those uses because we want their services. If people don't bother to see how their data will be used, then shame on them.
Go read Google or Facebook's privacy policies and terms of service. They are the worst case scenario, really. Many people refuse to use those services because of how they use the data. If you don't know, you don't know. The information is available to you. In fact, whenever they make a change in it, you get a nice big box on your screen telling you so and asking if you want to read about it. Most people just click on.
By making the information freely available to users and getting users to check off a box saying that they agree, the companies have met their legal requirement to inform you about the contract you're signing. If you agree without reading, then you don't care. It's all there for you to see, but you do have to look.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)Whisp
(24,096 posts)That is where the real problem lies, the ability to hack into your finances, etc.,
Talk about scarey shit
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)So many places store your Social Security number, and that is the key to access to almost unlimited information and even criminal activity. It's not getting better, either.
reusrename
(1,716 posts)One is the privacy issue associated with listening to phone conversations/reading emails, along with all the questions of whether or not the laws are constitutional, or whether or not they are even being followed. This has always been the case with the 4th Amendment, ever since the country was founded.
The second concern is completely new, and it has to do with the use of metadata. Metadata is used to create the targets for a counterinsurgency operation. Sometimes (or according to research, in most cases) the most influential person in a social network (or insurgency) is not the most high profile or the most vocal individual in the group. With very large groups (OWS for example), this new technology identifies those individuals who's participation in the group is the most critical.
That, in a nutshell, is what the metadata is being collected and used for. It should be obvious how this information can be used/misused to affect our first amendment freedoms, specifically our right to peaceably assemble. There are a couple of stories floating around today about how the MIC is targeting opponents of the keystone pipeline. This counterinsurgeny technology and training is being used against law-abiding citizens right here in America.
Because the algorithms being used are easily handled by computers, and because no errors are introduced by trying to decode or translate any communication content, the system can create a very precise mapping of our social networks. Only actual metadata associated with each communication is logged into the software, and from that the algorithms sort out the social connections.
Almost everything about this particular type of surveillance is new. The science behind the algorithms that are used and the computers that store and sift the data are new. The idea behind controlling the pubic is not new, however. It has been done before, and very effectively, even without this new weapon.
This all fits into the bigger picture of the War on Terror. Remember that our country was founded by insurgents. Many, if not all of our heroes, would have been easily thwarted under this type of surveillance regime and folks have written about how Paul Revere could have been stopped.
For some basic info about how the science is implemented, google the keywords:
thesis+insurgent+social+network
This use of the metadata seems to be the more dangerous issue. This is the part where individuals are systematically and scientifically targeted. Once targets have been identified, the eavesdropping part can then be used to disrupt/detain/dissuade/discredit any target. But it's the scientific selection of targets is what thwarts our (the ones who are trying to change things) ability to properly organize any resistance. This is serious. Without organization we have no idea who to aim our pitchforks at.
Basically, we are racing toward future where you either support the 1% or else you are a terrorist. This path leads to the restoration of slavery. There is no doubt about it.
Robosigners
As for the content part of the question, basically the law requires someone to certify certain things. In the case of the mortgage thefts they robosigned all sorts of documents saying that they had reviewed the original paperwork on the transaction and stuff like that. They never even had the paperwork in most cases, but they hired people to swear that they did, and that they had reviewed it all.
In the spy analyst case it's sort of the same thing, only now it's official policy. An actual person has to certify (for instance) that if we don't listen to this specific call or read this specific email then we will all die at the hands of terrorists.
So what they've done is they have set up a system where (most likely, because I don't really know too many details of this software) when an analyst logs onto the system his authorization code (or electronic signature) is automatically attached to every transaction that he does. Hence the robosigning analogy.
In order to have this authority to robosign this stuff, he only has to be verbally authorized to do so by either the Attorney General or the Director of National Intelligence.
Apparently he has instant access, on his own authority, to pretty much the entire database.
The top box in the slide represents the form tool or template that the analyst must fill out. That form or template includes boxes for inputting all of the legal requirements that must be met for the analyst to take a peek at stuff. I imagine one of the requirement would be some sort of affidavit by the analyst (this is merely speculation on my part, the stuff about an affidavit) that gets tracked for later submission to the FISA court.
Then, immediately (or in a few milliseconds), the analyst request is approved by all of those other software function modules. There does not seem to be any other human input required. All of the automated FISA requests, together with all of the other record keeping functions, are automatically generated by the system software modules.
Snowden, by all accounts, was a damn good systems analyst and he also claims he had authority as an analyst to use this particular system. He would have been one of the many who would fill out the form or template to request email or voice content.
As for real evidence of the robosigning, it's all there in the information that has been released. The analysts simply fill out a form or template and they have immediate access to the contents of emails and phone calls.
The template or form drives all of the computer modules that compile all the information needed for requesting a warrant from the FISA court. This ensures that the requirements for the warrant are complied with.
Then, sometime during the following 72 hours, the warrant request is sent to the FISA court. It is automatically approved since all the "legal" requirements have been met when the analyst completes the form or template that starts the process. I imagine thousands of communications can be requested by a single warrant.
Any analyst is authorized to obtain the content of any voice or email record, on his own authority, if he has been verbally authorized to do so by either the Attorney General or the Director of National Intelligence.
It's all covered in the FISA law itself, and then made crystal clear by the document releases that Snowden made. The laws were already known, Snowden explains the policy used to implement the law, which I never heard anything about before his disclosures.
If you are familiar with how robosigners were used to flout legal hurdles in the home repossession scandals, then you have to understand that this system of having the analysts become robosigners is done for exactly the same purpose. The only difference being that in the NSA spying case the robosigning has been made the official policy, which I think makes it legal, even though it violates the spirit of the law.
The policy could be ruled illegal by the Supreme Court, but no one has been able to argue the case there because all Americans lack legal standing.
One of the documents that Snowden released was the Verizon warrant which should provide legal standing to Verizon customers since they can now prove to the court that they are being targeted. In the past the court denied standing to everyone because no one could really know whether or not they were on a list since it was all secret.
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think
(11,641 posts)If you protest illegal and immoral US wars there might be a special file for you
If you protest Wallstreet & big bank's corruption there might be a special file for you.
If you protest corporate pollution like that of Koch Industries as an environmentalist there might be a special file for you
If you are a union activist there may be a special file for you
If you are a church leader advocating civil rights there may be a special file for you....
In_The_Wind
(72,300 posts)MineralMan
(146,333 posts)use of personal data. It's news to many, I'm sure.
In_The_Wind
(72,300 posts)Years ago it became public knowledge that a bad credit score could keep one from getting a job.
Also banking debit card transactions where a person shops can show they may be having money problems making them a bad credit risk.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)MineralMan
(146,333 posts)I'm just providing descriptions. It's up to each person to decide whether such data collection and storage is right or wrong. Still, we've given permission for much of it.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)It was all shoved down my throat and I had no possible avenue of recourse for redress.
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)You signed forms at the bank, you clicked the agree box on the website, you signed what is euphemistically called a "Privacy agreement" at the doctors office. You sign things all the time that give up your rights of privacy. That you do not know that you signed those rights away does not mean that you did not do so. It just means that you didn't read what you signed, along with the supporting documents those papers refer to.
Believe me, you gave permission, even if you are unaware that you did. You just weren't paying attention when you did so.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)If I need to use critical services, I will be forced to sign documents I may not wish to sign, or I will be denied the service.
Either I acquiesce to the dictates of private commercial interests who monopolize necessary services/resources that I have no real alternative to obtain elsewhere, or I don't get the services that I need to exist in this system without extreme time consuming effort.
It was not always like this. And if you are almost 70 yrs. old, you damn well know that this is true.
Wealthy private interests control the government, and the government acts on behalf of these interests
I didn't ask for any of it. I did not give anyone permission to take my rights away, they just took them and told me it was too bad for me.
I lived outside the system for many years, and outside the country, with minimal interaction in the system. The wealthy private interests that control the government have deliberately made this virtually impossible to do nowadays. Heck, if you want to work, you are forced to submit to someone snooping through your piss if the employer wants you to.
I consider that a gross invasion of personal privacy.
The US is a quasi-police state that primarily protects and serves private economic interests that use the economic system to track and control the citizenry.
That's not by my permission.
It is extortion.
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)I don't know about that. Seems a stretch to me. I do read such things, especially for services I use frequently. I read contracts thoroughly, and things like real estate closings take a long time because of it.
I use Yahoo as my email source. I've read their entire terms of service and privacy statement. After doing so, I use their email in a way that works within that framework. Most of my email has to do with my web content services, along with personal email. Nothing in either is any cause of concern for me. I don't transmit any personal information that might be used by others, because I'm sending email to others, not because of Yahoo. So, I'm careful with my email, just as I used to be with other forms of communication.
I use DU. As I do, I'm aware that everything I write here is publicly visible and searchable. Same with Facebook. I don't put things online that I wish to keep private. Since I'm older, I remember doing the same with telephone calls and USPS mail. I'm thoughtful about my public statements, and always have been, and everything that leaves my home or office is something I consider to be public.
However, I read such disclosures, so I'll be aware of what I'm doing all the time. I use Yahoo's cloud storage, too, as a backup for my work product. I don't worry about security there, either, because my work product is of no use to anyone but me and my clients. I'm not a very interesting person on any sort of national level, so I'm not concerned about putting my thoughts out in public. However, I'm still thoughtful of what I write for public view.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)Not sure I get the gist of what you are trying to say here (we all know that there are records of interactions WITH them, we were worried about the ones they went and got from elsewhere).
I know some people loved when bush expanded spying to us and increased federal powers (not a lot of folks here I might add) and I know as well some have no issues at all with spending billions of our money to collate all the data you mentioned (and more) to keep on us lowly citizens (as we are all potential terrorists to them) - but I am not one of those people.
Amazing around here that some folks label themselves 'progressives' when they really are more regressive.
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)It's not OK, unless you agree to it. Bugs and cameras in homes? Who is doing that? I have cameras in my home. There's one on every computer I own. If I use them, I use them. If I'm not using them, they're off. On my desktop PCs, they're unplugged.
I am describing some of the places that keep data on people. I'm neither approving or disapproving. I'm describing. You're reading something into what I posted that is not in the post.
randome
(34,845 posts)They are watching our thoughts form as we type! Quick, everyone! Learn sign language!
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)sign language interpretation algorithms to read your mind.
AllINeedIsCoffee
(772 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)"President Obama's harshest liberal/progressive critics miss having someone like GWB in the White House to feed their persecution complex."
That betrays the thought that disagreeing with something under Bush, means that you have to agree with it under Obama, and then you have to agree with it again under a Republican president. Persecution, as a word choice, is a bit like using the word "whiner". Anyone that dissents is a whiner. Remember that when something happens that YOU don't like and is an injustice to you, personally, then you can tell yourself you are just a whiner. Even if it sends you to jail, the poorhouse or the chair.
Hyperbole? Sure. But so is accusing every single person that disagreed with surveillance under Bush as being Obama haters or "wanting to let the terrorists win."
PSPS
(13,615 posts)Apologists' Hit Parade:
1. This is nothing new
2. I have nothing to hide
3. What are you, a freeper?
4. But Obama is better than Christie/Romney/Bush/Hitler
5. Greenwald/Flaherty/Gillum/Apuzzo/Braun is a hack
6. We have red light cameras, so this is no big deal
7. Corporations have my data anyway
8. At least Obama is trying
9. This is just the media trying to take Obama down
10. It's a misunderstanding/you are confused
11. You're a racist
12. Nobody cares about this anyway / "unfounded fears"
13. I don't like Snowden, therefore we must disregard all of this
14. Other countries do it
Autumn
(45,120 posts)The government is collecting information on American citizens private communication with other citizens. There is a big fucking difference in what the agencies mentioned in this pathetic OP are doing and what the NSA is collecting.
randome
(34,845 posts)The man who said "I am not here to hide from justice"?
If the NSA is collecting information on all private communications, we need to see some evidence of that.
Then the number of DUers who discount it will drop somewhere into the neighborhood of zero.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]
Autumn
(45,120 posts)My word were "collecting information on American citizens private communication" information on our phone calls and e mails. If you don't get that well I don't give a shit. I get it. They are collecting the data and storing it.
randome
(34,845 posts)I don't know where you get the idea they collect our emails, too.
But again, show us some evidence of this. Not some claims from a man who sent information endangering people's lives to Der Spiegel.
Where is the evidence?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]
Autumn
(45,120 posts)I know better. I'm quite capable of understanding what I read and what the government has said. I'm not buying what you are trying to sell. Have a nice day.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)I'm high-profile. My daughter gets sexually assaulted. She calls a 1-800 number for sexual assault victims because she has no idea how to deal with it. Is it okay for the metadata to be stored, to know that someone from your house repeatedly called for support to a sexual assault hotline?
Hell, they might generate rumors that YOU did it, until you are forced to make your daughter out herself as a victim.
You think your wife is cheating on you. You are high-profile. You call an attorney for a divorce. People know this. Even threaten you that they will release the information that you are nothing but a cuckold.
These are very easy things to imagine happening. Destruction of families is nothing in the face of power to many. If you think that there aren't some that will go that far, I respectfully submit that you are naive as hell.
randome
(34,845 posts)Show some evidence that the NSA is doing this or plans to or even has the capability of doing so and a lot more people will be in agreement on this.
Carl Bernstein says from what we've learned, the safeguards and restrictions in place are pretty strong. His opinion is not sacrosanct but I agree with him.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Considering that we know that Verizon was served a warrant to surveillance the calls on Verizon Business networks. That includes people calling 1-800 numbers for support, like rape crisis or suicide prevention numbers. Do you believe that the NSA has the right to know that? I don't.
Don't even hash up facts, randome, that was explicitly what was released by the warrant, and it's not in the realm of guessing, it is in the realm of reality.
Would you want your son or daughter to have metadata recorded that they called a rape crisis hotline or a suicide prevention hotline? It might make you look bad, and someone might threaten you with it.
randome
(34,845 posts)So long as the safeguards and restrictions in place are strong.
And they are.
Even without that copy, any employee at Verizon could use the same data. But they don't because Verizon, too, has good safeguards and restrictions in place.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]
I guess you work for Verizon at the upper echelons of their data network. What is your title, if you don't mind me asking?
randome
(34,845 posts)Without evidence to show that responsibilities are being abused, I don't get all hot and bothered. Plenty of other things in this country to get hot and bothered about that we actually know about.
We shouldn't need to look for hidden bogeymen when we have actual monsters lurking among us.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)"Even without that copy, any employee at Verizon could use the same data. But they don't because Verizon, too, has good safeguards and restrictions in place. "
The reason they don't isn't strong protections (they are not) - the reason is they fear getting sued.
The government doesn't have that worry.
randome
(34,845 posts)But they can't because -again, presumably- the safeguards and restrictions in place are pretty strong.
And an NSA worker who goes rogue can, indeed, be brought to justice and face jail time, which is what Snowden is all about.
Until we see evidence that Verizon or the NSA is abusing their responsibilities, I'm not worried about it.
NSA is getting lots of lawsuits now. They have Snowden to 'thank' for that, although why he chose to do this in a way that ruins his life, that of his family and fiance and endangers people's lives is difficult to fathom.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)prepaid phone section, business analyst/programmer. Tons of employees access call records daily for a host of reasons. My own programs needed to access such data to test and ensure rates were being charged correctly (in my case as we migrated a network over from a merger).
What I couldn't do is map a call from your phone to someone elses and then see who they called (unless, of course, they were with verizon as well).
Working at winstar I had access to everyone's emails (and calls originating from our building) of often scanned them for key words (found some fun things about affairs and such).
Getting the information has been easy at any of the places I have worked. People don't use it though out of fear of lawsuits.
randome
(34,845 posts)Because while they have the metadata, an analyst needs 4 levels of approval before it can even be viewed.
If Verizon employees (or Winstar, if you meant a different employer than at Verizon) have such easy access to emails, that sounds like a more pressing problem. Why would you be allowed to scan emails? What keywords were you looking for?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]
Aerows
(39,961 posts)is a very apt avatar.
gulliver
(13,197 posts)Lots of people at Verizon could probably view your call metadata or even eavesdrop on your voice and text communications.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Collecting data on people that have never even been accused of a crime is still ... What is that? Collecting data on people that aren't accused of any crime whatsoever, but doing it for personal gain. What is the word I'm looking for ...
randome
(34,845 posts)It's the Information Age. Huge amounts of data are insanely easy to copy. Without the NSA having a copy of metadata, when a warrant was issued, it would need to be issued to every single telecom in the country.
A self-defeating process.
Again, restrictions and safeguards are what count same as they do for any Internet web site you visit.
Verizon employees cannot access this data because the company presumably has strong safeguards and restrictions in place, the same as the NSA does.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]
Aerows
(39,961 posts)then why do it? Surely you've heard of "follow the money". People don't just do things for kicks.
randome
(34,845 posts)It's much easier to search the data when they have a warrant.
Otherwise, they would need to approach every single telecom in the country, which would be a self-defeating process.
So long as the safeguards and restrictions in place are strong enough, I don't see any reason to denigrate the NSA any more than we denigrate the IRS because they store details of our finances.
Evidence counts.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]
Aerows
(39,961 posts)It doesn't matter if it infringes on privacy. Well, except yours.
randome
(34,845 posts)...between privacy and ease of access.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]
Aerows
(39,961 posts)That's my question.
And nice that you admit they are gathering it.
Rex
(65,616 posts)No doubt about it.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)wisk anyone off to a 3rd world country torture chamber. O yea ...Sprint does torture me with high phone bills.