General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsItaly, Portugal apologize for air blockade. ‘Sorry is not enough’: Bolivia demands EU find culprits
Published: July 16, 2013 | 20:55 GMT Last Updated: July 16, 2013 | 20:56 GMT
Italy and Portugal have submitted explanatory notes to the government of Bolivia in response to the plane incident President Morales suffered in Europe, when several countries closed their airspace believing that he was traveling with Snowden.
"Not only has Spain has sent a verbal message, which offers apologies, but also Portugal and Italy (submitted) Explanatory Notes" Choquehuanca said in a press conference in La Paz. However, the official stressed that he apology "is not enough" since the four countries “must identify those responsible and punish them in an exemplary fashion so that such an incident does not happen again.”
...
http://actualidad.rt.com/actualidad/view/100235-italia-portugal-disculpas-avion-morales
Get short URL
Published time: July 17, 2013 11:29
...
He went on to say that the apologies will be analyzed by the Bolivian government, adding that the countries in question would have “to repair the damage that has been done to the president.”
http://rt.com/news/bolivia-eu-apologies-not-enough-202/
Caracas, July 17 ...
Jaua met today with ambassadors of Spain, France, Italy and Portugal here, to whom he presented the statement of the Southern Common Market (MERCOSUR) backing Morales, agreed on July 12 in Montevideo, Uruguay.
Jaua said the incident will only be considered overcome once the Government of Bolivia considers itself satisfied.
Venezuela's top diplomat said he will meet tomorrow with Venezuelan diplomatic representatives in Spain, Italy, France and Portugal to assess the response given so far by the governments of those countries about the issue.
Besides, likely measures to be implemented by Venezuela will be studied, in case the European governments fail to meet Bolivia's request.
The clarifications made so far by the representatives of the states involved have not been enough for Bolivian authorities, added Jaua.
sgl/rma/acl/mem
Modificado el ( miércoles, 17 de julio de 2013 )
http://www.plenglish.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1678851&Itemid=1
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Laelth
(32,017 posts)-Laelth
allin99
(894 posts)that is hardly asking a lot. "Que paso". and take your "misunderstanding" mierda and shove it up your culo.
idwiyo
(5,113 posts)
Catherina
(35,568 posts)but it's day time.
idwiyo
(5,113 posts)
byeya
(2,842 posts)knowledge about the way the world works.
They will apologize if Obama tells them to.
(It's too much to ask to think for oneself for this crew)
I am laughing at all the incredibly gullible folks who would believe a little tin pot wannabe that he is important enough to have his plane forced down by the "evil" USA . The fact is this plane had to land because the pilot had not checked that he had an adequate fuel supply to reach his destination . Check the Pilot-Control tower conversation , please . But that , of course , would undo you eternal "bad USA" mantra .
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)
idwiyo
(5,113 posts)DemocratForJustice
(78 posts)but was diverted and prevented from doing so.
It makes sense - the Canary Islands are roughly half way between Moscow and Bolivia.
flamingdem
(39,328 posts)Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)the whole thing was a RW plot to make Obama look bad and give South America a chance for the anti-Yankee propaganda that they are famous for bringing out with no justification.
OK Apologists, why is Europe apologizing for something that you've told us time and time again, never happened.
idwiyo
(5,113 posts)
bvar22
(39,909 posts)Indeed.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)
Dr. Strange
(25,925 posts)
See?
Catherina
(35,568 posts)
chimpymustgo
(12,774 posts)A racist, colonialist, imperialist mindset seems to be the prevailing 'Murican POV - regardless of political affiliation.
allin99
(894 posts)then the U.S. acts like it's no fucking big deal. I'm so disgusted by this.
Even if you love obama you should be disgusted by this act. Heck, ESPECIALLY if you love obama, since the reason people loved him was because he was ABOUT progress, and anti imperialism and racism.
That being said, the whole thing is fucking outrageous.
flamingdem
(39,328 posts)AllINeedIsCoffee
(772 posts)idwiyo
(5,113 posts)Iggo
(47,568 posts)
byeya
(2,842 posts)is all it's xenophobic purity.
robbob
(3,538 posts)...except it hasn't been funny in a long, long time...
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)You might want to stick with "ignorant."
muriel_volestrangler
(101,367 posts)Too many rude, ignorant (of ethics), egotistical people like you, who dismiss a fairly-elected head of state, because you think that you, as an American, are better than him.
Your post pollutes DU.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)datasuspect
(26,591 posts)it's idiocracy.
think
(11,641 posts)
kardonb
(777 posts)my dear Chimpy , follow your own advice and GO PLEASE , preferably to friend Evo's country .
Catherina
(35,568 posts)and no one else matters. A racist, colonialist, imperialist mindset that Latin America, the Middle East and Asia reject.
byeya
(2,842 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)I hope the countries involved so reveal who started it all. The CTs will have too much egg on their face to eat all the crow.
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)flamingdem
(39,328 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)Hanging on, I see. Too funny.
Let's see. France, Spain, Portugal and Italy have all apologized now. They have admitted, to varying degrees that access was restricted, that they were told Snowden was on board and that Spain insisted on searching the plane in Austria.
I do appreciate you acknowledging you are one of the conspiracy theorists.
flamingdem
(39,328 posts)Find the notes if you want to be convincing, otherwise you're believing propaganda
morningfog
(18,115 posts)
99Forever
(14,524 posts)Still thinks Denial is a river in Egypt.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)byeya
(2,842 posts)OnyxCollie
(9,958 posts)
intaglio
(8,170 posts)Or are you just going on Bolivian sources?
At present what is known is that clearance was given for overflight of all countries prior to take off (except perhaps for Italy) and only the confirmations of these clearances was delayed. Delayed confirmations of clearance are not unusual.
Now the actual fact is that, whilst still in Austrian airspace, the Bolivian plane developed a fault with one fuel gauge, this was not a declared emergency. They reported this and requested clearance to proceed and land, without prior clearance, at airfields in France or Spain or Portugal or Italy. Instead European ATC directed the Bolivian plane to land in Austria as although not an emergency such a fault should be checked ASAP.
If this had all been part of some grand conspiracy what the F**k was the point? You are not allowed to hold a diplomatic flight except for reasons of safety. You cannot search it except with permission because it is diplomatic territory and, as long as it stays on the tarmac for its servicing, it remains outside the borders of the country where the airport is located geographically. If the aircraft is unservicable the occupants are allowed to migrate to another aircraft on the tarmac without being subject to search or seizure.
The only people making a noise about this are the Bolivians and small minded conspiracy theorists on sites like this
muriel_volestrangler
(101,367 posts)The fact is, all these countries denied their airspace to the president of Bolivia, at one time or another. You cannot seriously believe that the Bolivians decided to land because of a fuel gauge problem, and that by a complete coincidence, 4 countries had decided to ban the plane from their airspace at the same time (which we know because they've apologised, and because the president of France confirmed it for his country), but hadn't actually told the Bolivians, and then the Bolivians just decided to accuse the 4 countries after all?
Yours is the idiotic conspiracy theory.
Source?
"If they had not had any clearances the plane would not have taken off." - who are you quoting here? And in "This is normal procedure and results in a delay to the flight and a load of self-serving poppycock from the Bolivians", for that matter?
Again, what is your source? What we know is that, after Vienna had said they could land, they asked if the plane needed any assistance, and the plane replied "no, but we're unsure about our fuel reading, so we do need to land promptly".
Again, your source?
No, we know, from the apologies, that all 4 refused airspace at some point.
To stop Snowden getting to Bolivia. Derrr. The CIA, MI6 or someone screwed up, thought Snowden could be on the plane, and set in motion pressure on the 4 countries to block the plane. We need to know if the State department or other people who are supposed to have the fuck of an idea how diplomatic relations with heads of state are handled were involved. Or if spies are pressuring other countries without the say-so of the US (probably them - the UK wouldn't have the clout, I think) government.
Which is why this is an international diplomatic incident, however much you try to play it down. You are blindly saying "this would have been wrong, and I cannot believe the US government would do something wrong, so it can't have happened". Wake up.
That's a crappy little ad hominem insult that shows you are fucking desperate. Get your tongue out of the government arse.
struggle4progress
(118,352 posts)asked to land in Austria soon after take-off because of fuel shortages ...
Bolivia says European nations ‘kidnapped’ Evo Morales in hunt for NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden
Charlotte McDonald-Gibson
Brussels
Thursday 04 July 2013
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/bolivia-says-european-nations-kidnapped-evo-morales-in-hunt-for-nsa-whistleblower-edward-snowden-8686124.html
... The incident led the plane to make an emergency landing in Vienna after a fuel gauge stopped working correctly, Morales said ...
Bolivia Threatens U.S. Embassy Closing After Snowden Search
By Nathan Gill
July 05, 2013
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2013-07-05/bolivia-threatens-u-dot-s-dot-embassy-closure-after-search-for-snowden
... Many hours before takeoff <from Moscow> the Government of Portugal notified the flight crew we could not land in Lisbon due to technical problems. So Spanish government authorization was obtained to stop in the Canary Islands ... At that time our use of airspace was not restricted. What we could not do was land ... The pilot himself had apparently heard a rumor that Mr Snowden was on-board ... We requested the emergency landing <in Vienna> as a precaution against a possible lack of fuel ... The President meanwhile telephoned the vice president and the chancellor to inform them what was happening ... They asked for our passports; we had no problem displaying them; ... they reviewed them quickly and returned ... After landing, the crew received notification of Portugal and Italy that they had canceled the overflight and landing permits in their territories ... The ambassador did not specifically mention Snowden. Our president said "Look, sir, we are not carrying anybody, not even Mr. Snowden". That unnerved the Spanish diplomat ... His response was confused ... The ambassador returned at 9:30 <AM>; President Morales told him it was all sorted out and thanked him ...
Rubén Saavedra Soto: “Nadie requisó el avión FAB 001”
El ministro de Defensa relata lo ocurrido en la nave presidencial cuando le bloquearon el vuelo en cuatro países de Europa. Cuenta los detalles de esos momentos tensos en Viena.
http://www.eldeber.com.bo/ruben-saavedra-soto-nadie-requiso-el-avion-fab-001/130706215201
... After taking off from Moscow, Mr. Morales’s plane sought permission to land in France to refuel ... But France refused and denied the plane permission to enter French airspace, Bolivian officials said. Portugal had previously refused to let the plane land for refueling in Lisbon ...
Barring of Bolivian Plane Infuriates Latin America as Snowden Case Widens
By WILLIAM NEUMAN and ALISON SMALE
Published: July 3, 2013
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/world/snowden.html?_r=0
... “There was contradictory information about the identity of the passengers aboard one or two aircraft, because there was also a doubt about the number of planes that wanted to fly over France,” French President Francois Hollande said in Germany, apparently allowing the possibility that the flight had been denied permission. “As soon as I knew that it was the plane of Bolivia’s president, I immediately gave my authorization for the overflight” ...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/07/03/evo-morales-controversial-flight-over-europe-minute-by-heavily-disputed-minute/
intaglio
(8,170 posts)The only new information here are reports from Bolivia that 3 further governments have given apologies but no real details about what those apologies are. As a result I refer you to my post of last week.
Fuel gauge problem - a recording you admitted hearing. Safety issues allow the pilot to make a mid-air request for a change of flight plan and it is open to the ATC system of each country affected to approve this new flight plan. Unless an emergency if the proposed plan does not fit with the current air traffic load then they can refuse this in-flight amendment and ask that the aircraft either continue with the original plan or to land at the nearest available airstrip and submit a new plan.
Source for the original clearances given - the aircraft took off. Without those clearances the aircraft would not have been allowed to take off because the airspace would not have been available for it to fly into. Flight plans are made in advance and approvals are passed to the various ATC systems. Without clearance on it's entire route between origin and destination the aircraft has to file an amended flight plan before take off. FFS do you think that flying in the hugely crowded European airspace with an airliner is like driving down to the 7-11 for a box of cookies and a carton of milk?
As I pointed out the French apology was no more than a pre-emptive cringe costing them nothing and gaining them some brownie points. The actual refusal was a refusal to confirm that a mid-air amendment to the flight plan was approved, as I later found out. Because there was no emergency they had every right refuse that amendment. I suspect that the Portuguese, Spanish and Italian "refusals" were cut from the same cloth.
As to "stopping Snowden getting to Bolivia" how would refusing a diplomatic flight airspace work that? Why? because, under international law you may not impede a diplomatic flight nor may you remove a passenger on such a flight without the approval of the host country, in this case, Bolivia.
As to "small minded conspiracy theorists", how else may you be described? What you are expecting people to swallow is that the Bolivians and the Russians and the Ukrainians and the Slovaks and the Czech and the Austrians had no idea that flight could not move on until after the fuel problem was reported. You are asking that we believe established ATC procedures were entirely subverted without the prior knowledge of the pilots or the larger European ATC centres. You are asking that we accept your view that the aircraft would be forced to land and no protest would be made by the notoriously publicity hungry Bolivian President. You are asking that, assuming that Mr Snowden was given asylum by the Bolivians, that he could be removed from sovereign Bolivian territory (the aircraft). What if there had been no fuel gauge problem? Do you expect us to believe that once over France the aircraft would have been forced to land? Are you truly of the opinion that the French are so beholden to the USA that they would give in to US blackmail on this matter?
muriel_volestrangler
(101,367 posts)Yes. The French are close allies of the USA, believe it or not. It would hardly be 'blackmail', though; just acceding a strong request that they stop Morales' plane, because it will be so much easier to piss off a South American country and its allies than piss off the much more powerful USA.
We know, with the apologies coming in, that this was not just about a fuel gauge. If it was, they wouldn't be apologising. And they would have let him land at the nearest and most convenient airport, rather than the plane having to turn around.
It is quite possible that there was an agreed flightplan before take-off; but you assert that there was, when we know that Portugal was fucking around with him before takeoff 'for technical reasons', which is a pisspoor excuse to give. A common jet cannot refuel at a major airport 'for technical reasons', and they won't get more specific than that? It doesn't wash. So I wanted to know where your assertion came from. It seems it's your personal opinion and nothing more. Whether they started fucking with him before or during the flight, they're still guilty, but it would be good to know the order of events.
"The actual refusal was a refusal to confirm that a mid-air amendment to the flight plan was approved, as I later found out." Where have you found this out? The anti-Snowden brigade here has not posted this, which seems pretty incredible, given their desperation in all other things.
"Why? because, under international law you may not impede a dplomatic flight nor may you remove a passenger on such a flight without the approval of the host country, in this case, Bolivia. " And this is why Bolivia is pissed off. Remember, the permissions to continue only came after they stated Snowden was not on board.
He also confirmed the account of Bolivian Foreign Minister David Choquehuanca, who said on Sunday that Garcia-Margallo had asked Bolivia for a written assurance that Snowden was not on the plane before opening its airspace.
"Spain ... granted airspace permission on the basis of the word of the Bolivian foreign minister," Garcia-Margallo said. "We believe the word of our allies and friends ...
http://news.yahoo.com/spain-could-apologize-bolivia-snowden-misunderstanding-150829125.html
That was July 9th; on July 5th, he said Spain had been told Snowden was on board, but he wouldn't say who had told Spain:
The minister did not say who supplied the information and declined to say whether he had been in contact with the United States. But he said European countries' reactions were based on this information.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/05/us-spain-bolivia-idUSBRE96405820130705
No-one thinks this was about a fuel gauge. Except the DU dead-enders.
flamingdem
(39,328 posts)because they are not an apology but an explanation, as in, sorry but it wasn't what you accuse us of and this is what happened, so let's move on.
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)can you not even correctly quote from your own linked material?
struggle4progress
(118,352 posts)It was originally thought that Italy had not granted permission, but Foreign Minister Emma Bonino clarified the country's position in a hearing before committees of the House and Senate ... "Italy did not have to do anything," said the minister,. "Around 11 PM last Tuesday <July 2nd> the operations room of the air operations command was informed by the service of coordination and control that the aircraft had been denied French, Spanish and Portuguese airspace. At 11:17 PM, the service staff at the terminals noted that the aircraft had reversed course, heading to Vienna, where he landed half an hour later. When the aircraft landed at another airport, the request, that Italy had received on 28 June and had granted on the 29th, lapsed. When the French authorities granted permission again, we immediately granted diplomatic overflight permission"
http://www.ilvelino.it/it/article/bolivia-dalla-spagna-scuse-ufficiali-per-il-caso-morales/5c7dc17f-6360-46ab-a012-e60d29cfb787/
flamingdem
(39,328 posts)I read that a while ago, it included the request to Bolivia to refuel elsewhere 24 hours before they left Moscow due to technical difficulties. That is, before this supposed phone call from a supposed cia guy.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)flamingdem
(39,328 posts)and when that's the case, propaganda wins.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)flamingdem
(39,328 posts)shows it is not an apology.
Do the work, figure it out
morningfog
(18,115 posts)More details will come out. Will you eat crow when proven wrong?
flamingdem
(39,328 posts)and neither did Italy except in accord with the normal scheduling, explained in their note
morningfog
(18,115 posts)France blocked airspace. Spain tried to board and search the plane. All facts.
They were all told Snowden was on board.
flamingdem
(39,328 posts)Bolivia ignored it, they were told to go to Las Palmas and were allowed but concerned about the amount of fuel. Thus that's on tape when they're landing in Austria.
A right wing Spanish ambassador tried to intervene, we've never heard the source of the supposed CIA guy call, that well might be a hoax, and with all the fuss made no one of the four countries will say a name? That's because it's bs, in my opinion, it was a hoax or a suggestion around the extradiction notes that were sent then, it was an assumption, clearly not all countries blocked based on it.
Spain did not apologize for blocking airspace, only the wacked ambassador who was meaningless in the equation. France said they thought there were 2 planes that was never clear, they were confused. Italy and Portugal did not apologize but gave notes.
Nothing is new.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)It was all to search for Snowden.
If you believe it was all coicidence and a set up, you are engaging it silly conspiracy theories. More will come out, don't worry. It is still drip, drip, driping. It is going to be hard for you conspiracists moving forward. Hang on! LOL>
flamingdem
(39,328 posts)You're not bothering to read what happened
The Spanish guy didn't do anything and is irrelevant to whether Spain blocked airspace, they did not
morningfog
(18,115 posts)I never claimed Spain blocked airspace, they didn't. They insisted on searching the plane after it was on the ground in Austria.
Italy is a minor player, and I didn't even mention them, did I?
Here are the points for you to pay attention to:
1. Portugal blocked landing, this is not in dispute.
2. France blocked airspace, this is not in dispute.
3. Spain tried to board and search the plane, this is not in dispute.
4. They all thought Snowden was on board. This has been admitted as well.
What remains is who told them all that Snowden was on board. Spain has said they were told it with certainty and to act straight away. Now, who started it and made the orders/strong suggestions? At least one name has been given, Eacho, the US ambassador to Austria. If you have another name, cool. If you think this is all just a big coincidence, you are daft or lying.
allin99
(894 posts)“Vienna foreign department received a phone call.” The caller was the US ambassador to Austria, William Eacho.
According to Die Presse, Eacho “claimed with great certainty that Edward Snowden was onboard.” He also made reference to a “diplomatic note requesting Snowden’s extradition.”
And where did he get that, did he just think of it all by himself and took the liberty to make those calls? hmmmm. Don't think so.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)struggle4progress
(118,352 posts)would not be possible due to technical issues at the airport. The Portuguese have reported they went several rounds with the Bolivians on this, before Bolivia eventually submitted a modified flight plan that indicated refueling in Las Palmas in the Canary Islands (instead of in Lisbon and later in Guyana). As the plane began its traverse of the Alps, it requested an opportunity to land in France to refuel. The French were confused by this request, not being sure exactly what plane intended to land in France, since this was not the approved Bolivian flight plan, denied landing permission, and withheld overflight permission on what seemed to them might be a second Bolivian plane, until they understood that this was the same plane they had originally granted overflight permission, at which point they granted the permission. The pilot then requested an emergency landing at Vienna for low fuel indications. Meanwhile, Morales was on the phone with other Bolivian officials.
Italy, Portugal, and Spain all deny having ever denied airspace
A natural guess about what happened is this: the Bolivians didn't take adequate fuel in Moscow to reach the Canary Islands, because they simply assumed the President could land in Lisbon or somewhere else despite the flight plan. France, not party to their thinking, said no, so it's likely the flight crew then started searching for a Spanish landing -- and was told "You're cleared to the Canary Islands! Proceed as planned!" The plane then requested an emergency landing ion Vienna, and the royally irritated Morales got on the phone with his government to cuss out the Spanish, who heard from the Bolivians and told their ambassador in Vienna to hightail it to the airport and sort everything out. This would have been around midnight in Vienna. According to Saavedra, the Spanish ambassador showed up at the airport, and never mentioned Snowden but apologetically told the Bolivian President he was exhausted and wondered if he could chat with Morales over a cup of coffee on the plane; Saavedra says Morales took this offer badly and reacted as if the ambassador were accusing him of lying, which (Saavedra says) stunned the ambassador who wasn't sure how to react and who finally left, promising to return first thing in the morning.
flamingdem
(39,328 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,367 posts)http://www.ilvelino.it/it/article/datagate-bonino-italia-non-coinvolta-in-vicenda-aereo-morales/2b290dfe-d70c-4fa7-9dc9-af37e83a9cf8/
You can tell from the way that the day of the incident is referred to as 'last Tuesday'.
flamingdem
(39,328 posts)and in more reliable news sources this is consistent.
Their explanation is above in Struggle's post.
allin99
(894 posts)i look forward to seeing what it says. 
flamingdem
(39,328 posts)allin99
(894 posts)never seen anything yet that shows italy was a part of the incedent. but since the other countries involved have shown they were a part, not sure why the posts saying morales made everything up and it's about a fuel gauge. italy, sure, agree, never seen anything concrete, so to me, unless they start with the "misunderstandings", then it is only spain, france, the u.s. (which still needs to answer for who told Eacho snowden was on board for him to pass that information on. i mean, unless you think he just went out on a limb and did so himself).
Do you not feel that a clear explanation should be given to the head of state? lets say italy is not a part, i can say there is nothing that shows that they were, so leaving them out, should the countries involved, who were obviously spoken to by the u.s., not a clear explanation be given. just curious.
flamingdem
(39,328 posts)They told them ahead to refile their flight plan that they couldn't accomodate them
Bolivia did not. But they have proof they told them to do so. They said it was "technical reasons"
but nothing to do with Snowden. This ended up being strikes that Struggle4progress researched and they were going on then.
So that was sensitive enough that they didn't put that in their explanation. So the Bolivians seemed to see everything as a conspiracy, even though it was not.
To me this is important because we're seeing some over the top propaganda by Morales, can't blame him for using this to his benefit but they're not being truthful.
Then when OAS had a meeting with all parties the resolution was agreed on already. All bs, all politics, so that when the countries said no we didn't deny, we will not apologize that was ignored for the larger narrative.
I'm not sure if Catherina realizes all of this. Plenty of people do but they push the story of the abuse of Morales for what it can bring to Latin American unity.
Same it has to be based on bs
allin99
(894 posts)misunderstanding and technical difficulties, followed by apologies, u.s. admitting it said snowden was on the flight...and it's just a coincedence. that's weird.
i left portugal out of it cuz i don't know what's up with them.
we'll agree to disagree on whether all this was all a random coincedence.
flamingdem
(39,328 posts)The idea could have been floated by someone, but that person could have represented themselves, not the US govt.
The coincidence, my guess, is that the extradition notices went out at the same time. Bolivia got one then as well. So the confusion could have been at that point.
But clearly the explanations are being drowned out by people who want a certain narrative.
Those countries did not apologize but you'll see it presented this way. Like here in this OP
allin99
(894 posts)and you're telling me he took it upon himself to contact a country that morales would be flying over or landing in to inform them that snowden was on that plane and he just got the idea from some random person, and made that choice to make those calls. that is wild man. lolol.
again, we will disagree.
i saw the apologies, and i disagree that their statments of "miscommunication"s, etc, were all a coincedence.
struggle4progress
(118,352 posts)allin99
(894 posts)"According to Die Presse, Eacho “claimed with great certainty that Edward Snowden was onboard.” He also made reference to a “diplomatic note requesting Snowden’s extradition.”"
http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-ambassador-to-austria-responsible-for-false-claim-snowden-was-on-bolivian-leaders-plane-report/5342027
and i wonder who told spain? random person? they believed a random person that they won't reveal?
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/spain-says-it-was-told-snowden-bolivia-plane
José Manuel García-Margallo, said on Spanish National Television on Friday that “they told us that the information was clear, that he was inside”.
The minister did not say who supplied the information and declined to say whether he had been in contact with the United States. But he said European countries’ reactions were based on this information.
struggle4progress
(118,352 posts)Austria's foreign office late on 2 July, for a conversation that mentioned Snowden, since Vienna had summoned him on 1 July to demand a explanation from the US regarding Snowden's allegations of US spying on the EU, and (unfortunately) Die Presse merely makes a completely unsourced claim regarding the alleged conversation: "Die Presse" learned he <Eacho> claimed with great certainty that Edward Snowden was on board
Austria summons US ambassador over spy scandal
Agence France-Presse
7:27 am | Tuesday, July 2nd, 2013
VIENNA—Austria summoned the US ambassador on Monday to explain reports that Washington had bugged European offices and embassies amid a growing diplomatic row ... http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/436737/austria-summons-us-ambassador-over-spy-scandal
USA verlangten von Wien Snowdens Auslieferung
03.07.2013 | 21:28 | HELMAR DUMBS UND CHRISTIAN ULTSCH (Die Presse)
... Wie "Die Presse" erfuhr, behauptete er mit großer Bestimmtheit, dass Edward Snowden an Bord sei ... http://diepresse.com/home/politik/aussenpolitik/1426275/USA-verlangten-von-Wien-Snowdens-Auslieferung
allin99
(894 posts)re: pretty thin,
okay, diepress is making it up lets say, or heard it through the grapevine and is printing it. we could say that...
and Reuters is also perhaps spreading rumors:
Spanish Foreign Minister Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo was asked by reporters whether the alert had come from the United States. He replied: "Inter alia (among other things)."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/09/us-usa-security-latinamerica-spain-idUSBRE9680OB20130709
struggle4progress
(118,352 posts)Try this interview with the Bolivian Minister of Defense
Rubén Saavedra Soto: “Nadie requisó el avión FAB 001”
El ministro de Defensa relata lo ocurrido en la nave presidencial cuando le bloquearon el vuelo en cuatro países de Europa. Cuenta los detalles de esos momentos tensos en Viena.
http://www.eldeber.com.bo/ruben-saavedra-soto-nadie-requiso-el-avion-fab-001/130706215201
allin99
(894 posts)espanol. since there are so many coincidences, and so many things they won't say, like who told them, and they're resorting being as vague as possible, (except a newspapers put the "among others" in answer to whether it was u.s.) maybe they should answer the question, (they refuse to excude the u.s.) i wonder why they won't. I mean, someone tells you snowden's on a plane, you give an apology like this:
"We recognize publicly that perhaps the procedures used in the Vienna airport by our representative were not the most effective," Spain's ambassador to Bolivia, Angel Vázquez, told journalists after dropping the letter off at Bolivia's Foreign Ministry. We regret this fact ... the procedure was not appropriate and bothered the president (Morales), putting him in a difficult situation," Vázquez said
clearly snowden's being on that plane was quite important for them to behave inappropriately to a president and asking if snowden is on the plane, etc.
So now we're ignoring completely the "among others", which entity can we not name, that they must be cryptic as hell about, gives a shit so much that snowden's on a plane? Someone not from the u.s. calls spain, why does Spain even give a shit that snowden's on a plane? They care that much for themselves about his being on the plane? Some person other than the u.s. calls them and they're all concerned.
i mean my god.
struggle4progress
(118,352 posts)... Many hours before takeoff <from Moscow> the Government of Portugal notified the flight crew we could not land in Lisbon due to technical problems. So Spanish government authorization was obtained to stop in the Canary Islands ... At that time our use of airspace was not restricted. What we could not do was land ... The pilot himself had apparently heard a rumor that Mr Snowden was on-board ... We requested the emergency landing <in Vienna> as a precaution against a possible lack of fuel ... The President meanwhile telephoned the vice president and the chancellor to inform them what was happening ... They asked for our passports; we had no problem displaying them; ... they reviewed them quickly and returned ... After landing, the crew received notification of Portugal and Italy that they had canceled the overflight and landing permits in their territories ... The ambassador did not specifically mention Snowden. Our president said "Look, sir, we are not carrying anybody, not even Mr. Snowden". That unnerved the Spanish diplomat ... His response was confused ... The ambassador returned at 9:30 <AM>; President Morales told him it was all sorted out and thanked him ...
allin99
(894 posts)what does the fm of spain mean we took his word? what word? what's the question? there must be a question to which he is giving his word.
cuz what is their inappropriate behavior. surely spain would not say their was inappropriate behavior unbecoming to a head of state, for no reason.
what conflicting information is france receiving that they mention in their apology? where from?
struggle4progress
(118,352 posts)allin99
(894 posts)Last edited Wed Jul 17, 2013, 09:37 PM - Edit history (3)
and tell me i have to translate it, with an interview from a guy who said the u.s. was behind it, so if i should take his word, then it's def. the u.s.'s fault, in that article he mentions the ambassador from spain " was sure that the U.S. was on the plane", we should ignore france not describing who was giving them conflicting information about morales' plane, we're ignoring spain apologizing for their bad behavior, we're ignoring spain saying they were told very clearly snowden was on board, and they won't say and it's probably not the person who wants snowden the most,...i just can't ignore things like that. so we'll agree to disagree that those are thin, or mean nothing.
struggle4progress
(118,352 posts)Catherina
(35,568 posts)as they have repeatedly demonstrated.
Emma Bonino and the poor apology for the Morales incident
After Ecuador and Bolivia made clear their determination to recall their ambassadors from our country, the Foreign Ministry has apologized for participating in the hijacking of Evo Morales' plane.
...
WE Apologize - Today the Bolivian Chancellor David Choquehuanca confirmed that he received an apology and explanation from the 4 countries involved, against which the leaders of the South American countries last week made outraged accusations of illegal behavior and arrogant, offensive actions that offended the moral dignity of South American countries. And that in addition to their messages, they had decided the recall their ambassadors from these countries, news mostly ignored in our country, as the major newspapers have been completely (white)washing the news.
...
ENOUGH farces - Snowden was not there and the whole South America is furious with our country, and all that Bonino was able to say was that Italy did not do anything, but then ran to present our apologies trying to smooth over the story. While we hope that the apology is decent and does not offend President Morales and his colleagues further, there remains an urgent need to clarify the issues just mentioned, which Bonino can not hope to escape with the two sentences now devoid of any foundation that she spread days ago .
http://www.giornalettismo.com/archives/1034053/emma-bonino-e-la-figuraccia-delle-scuse-per-il-caso-morales/
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Thanks struggle4progress and flamingdem.
Duppers
(28,127 posts)The Guardian and BBC good enough for you?
Judi Lynn
(160,630 posts)Spain apologises to Bolivia for blocking president’s plane
DPA
La Paz, July 16:
Spain has apologised to Bolivia for refusing to allow President Evo Morales’ plane to cross its airspace this month, an incident that became an international diplomatic scandal.
Spanish Ambassador Angel Vazquez delivered the official apology to the Bolivian Foreign Ministry in La Paz on Monday.
Vazquez also made a brief public statement acknowledging an “apology for the obstacle and the hardships caused to the president” on July 2-3 as Morales was returning from a conference in Russia.
Bolivia had denounced the governments of Spain, France, Italy and Portugal for restricting their airspace, which forced Morales’ plane to detour to Vienna and re-route the flight during a 13-hour delay.
The Foreign Ministry accused the Europeans of bowing to US pressure to block the plane over unfounded suspicions that intelligence whistleblower Edward Snowden might be aboard.
More:
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/news/international/spain-apologises-to-bolivia-for-blocking-presidents-plane/article4920468.ece
DemocratForJustice
(78 posts)There will be blowback
America does not have a lot of friends left in South America after the latest spying fiasco's.
Basically treating the President of Bolivia as a criminal, mass surveillance of Brazilians etc.
Uruguay is now considering offering asylum to Snowden.
Chile has already signed non USD trade deals with China.
Brazil is part of the BRICS who are discussing replacing the USD as the world's reserve currency and replacing the Federal Reserve private bank as the major influencer on global monetary policy.
Basically America only has Colombia left as an ally in South America - due to America propping up it's current regime.
Europe is angry at America over the mass surveillance of their citizens, diplomats and officials.
Europe is slowly waking up to what Obama is really like.
On his recent visit to Berlin, basically 4,000 supporters had to be bussed in.
In 2008 he got 200,000 who voluntarily wanted to see him.
America didn't have many friends in Africa and Obama has recently made it a heck of a lot worse, by :-
The Egyptian debacle
The war in Mali
The drone base in Niger
The moving of US troops into 35 more African countries.
Meanwhile China is successfully wooing Africa with things like :-
Including infrastructure improvement in natural resource deals - rail/road/communications etc.
Building a huge factory complex in Ethiopia which will employ 10,000 Ethiopians and export $4bn worth of cheap shoes a year. A few more factories like that and Ethiopians will be able to afford to but shoes themselves.
Offering 12,000 scholarships a year for free study at Chinese Universities - Africans will be able to take more of the higher paying jobs in the future, instead of Chinese engineers and managers.
China is offering jobs, the extraction of wealth from the ground and improved education.
America is offering bullying, bombs, bullets, conflict and war.
Australia and Japan are moving away from America and towards China, by signing non USD trade deals etc.
Japan says it is going to change it's military to be more reliant on itself instead of America.
The rest of SE Asia is moving more into the sphere and influence of China and away from America.
They can see which way the wind is blowing.
Pretty soon the only friends that America will have left are Israel and the UK.
And what the hell use are they going to be against the rest of the world?
Obama's Foreign Policy has made around 200 million more enemies just in the Muslim world.
So there is no respite there either.
It is a great pity that America's leaders are acting directly against the sage advice of the Founders :-
"Trade and friendly relations with all nations, entangling alliances with none."
"Trade makes nations wealthy, war and excessive military spending makes nations poor."
America is now spending 8% of GDP on the military - $1,219bn in 2012.
No nation can survive that for a prolonged period.
That's how the USSR finally went bust.
Neither can any nation withstand the stealing of over 15% of GDP from it's ordinary citizens and giving it to Oligarchs. (Corporate Welfare in America is now over $2.5tn a year.)
The USSR was also an oligarchy - they were called senior party officials.
Meanwhile China is only spending 2% of GDP on it's military and is making new and better and closer friends across the entire globe.
Anyone with half a brain can see which way this is heading.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)Watching Greenwald live on Democracy Now! right now. It's very interesting http://www.democracynow.org/
DemocratForJustice
(78 posts)Lower Corporate profits, less jobs, higher unemployment and more poverty in America
As hundreds of millions of more people around the world get to hear about what the American government has been doing with the NSA spying, there will be a backlash.
Only a very small percentage of people know very much so far - many more people will learn a lot more over the coming weeks.
There has already been a backlash in some very tiny ways.
Companies are now reconsidering any plans to use cloud computing - they now know it's not safe.
Google search traffic has gone down slightly.
A large proportion of large American Corporate profits are made in Europe.
Wait until the real backlash starts hitting :-
Less tourism to the US, Disney etc. will suffer
Less Christmas shopping trips to New York etc.
Boycotts of McDonalds or similar in Europe
Backlash against Google, Microsoft, Yahoo and other tech companies.
Backlash against American banks - particularly in places like South America, where American banks have a large share of the market.
We are already seeing a transfer away from London to Paris from rich Chinese tourists, because the UK is America's poodle.
We will see the same thing from just about everywhere in the world against America itself.
All sorts of things are going to start happening to America and American businesses because of the spying scandal and criminal behavior of the American government.
And none of them will be good.
The trade negotiations between the EU and US which are supposed to be happening are already being threatened.
The UK and Sweden have managed to limit the scope of the EU questioning of the American spying - but questions are still going to get asked.
Angela Merkel is East German - she knows all about a Stasi surveillance state.
The UK and Sweden are trying to cover up their role in spying for the NSA as much as possible.
The UK and GCHQ are collecting large amounts of data for the NSA.
Sweden has been spying on the Russians for the NSA.
The large Corporations may have the US mainstream media locked down.
That's not the case so much in the rest of the world.
There is already sizeable amounts of anger in Europe.
A large proportion of large American company's profits are made in Europe.
When the backlash from the criminal behavior of the NSA and the US government starts hitting American companies profits - then we will start to see some pushback.
Unfortunately that is unlikely to be before it has caused significantly higher unemployment in America.
Unlike Americans, most other country's have a healthy disregard and suspicion of their own governments.
They have seen what out of control governments can do, e.g. Germany from 1933.
The worst of the criminal behavior of the American government and the NSA has yet to hit the mainstream.
When it does we can expect some much larger repercussions.
DemocratForJustice
(78 posts)and how US tech companies are mandated by law to facilitate it.
The "backdoors" that Cisco and other networking companies implement in their routers and switches for lawful intercept are front and center again at this week's Black Hat security conference. A few years ago, they were cause celebre in some VoIP wiretapping arguments and court rulings.
This time, an IBM researcher told Black Hat conference attendees that these openings can still expose information about us to hackers and allow them to "watch" our Internet activity. Backdoors are implemented in routers and switches so law enforcement officials can track the Internet communications and activity of an individual or individuals under surveillance.They are required by law to be incorporated in devices manufactured by networking companies and sold to ISPs.
In this report from Forbes, IBM Internet Security Systems researcher Tom Cross demonstrated how easily the backdoor in Cisco IOS can be exploited by hackers. When they gain access to a Cisco router, they are not blocked after multiple failed access attempts nor is an alert sent to an administrator. Any data collected through the backdoor can be sent to anywhere -- not just merely to an authorized user, Forbes reports.
What's more, an ISP is not able to perform an audit trail on whoever tried to gain access to a router through the backdoor - that nuance was intended to keep ISP employees from detecting the intercept and inadvertently tipping off the individual under surveillance. But according to IBM's Cross, any authorized employee can use it for unauthorized surveillance of users and those privacy violations cannot be tracked by the ISP.
Read more at :-
https://www.networkworld.com/community/node/57070
Companies should be aware that almost all tech equipment and services supplied by a US tech company isn't safe from secret NSA spying. Most companies aren't.
Or companies are blase about it and don't believe the NSA / CIA would ever spy on THEM.
However one of the CIA's specialities is INDUSTRIAL espionage on behalf of a paying US "client".
Industrial Espionage: The CIA's New Frontier | LA Times (from 1993 - should be well developed by now)
http://articles.latimes.com/1993-07-18/opinion/op-14369_1_industrial-espionage
N.B. ex CIA Director James Woolsey, mentioned in the article above, is now an executive with Booz Allen Hamilton - a major private contractor for the NSA and Edward Snowden's previous employer.
NSA / CIA industrial espionage
http://www.securityfocus.com/news/6
Hewlett Packard admits to backdoors in storage products
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/07/11/hp_prepping_fix_for_latest_storage_vuln/
It should do wonders for US tech company share prices when word on what the NSA and CIA actually do around the world gets out.
N.B. I shouldn't think any Chinese supplied network equipment is any safer.
The Chinese illegally stole Cisco's designs when they started up.
They are almost bound to have a back door for Chinese government spies.
There seems to be a gap in the market to supply SECURE network and other computer equipment.
A US company couldn't do it - they would be breaking current US law!
If there is no accountability to uphold the basic Rule of Law there is no limit to the potential abuses.
As we have seen and are seeing with the scandal over the NSA Mass Surveillance programs that have zero tangible oversight by Congress.
Advertising LIE of the century:
"Your privacy is our priority" Microsoft
Installed a back door for NSA spying in Windows in 1999.
One the first (first?) to sign up for Prism Mass data collection.
Handed the NSA access to encrypted messages, before the product was even launched - outlook.com
Catherina
(35,568 posts)Welcome to DU 
DemocratForJustice
(78 posts) 