I get that some of will never be the victim of a hate crime, neither will your friends or family

[La Lioness Priyanka]

so for you this killing of an innocent kid and the subsequent trial that freed his killer is not as important as whatever other issue you think is critically important, but for some of us hate crimes are a big deal. Either we could subject to them, or our friends/family could or we just care.

No one is forcing you to participate in this issue, but to dismiss it as non-important or as diarrhea, really lacks sensitivity. It also condones the bigotry and biases that lead up to these things.

So don't participate if you don't want to, but don't you dare tell me it's not a big deal. It's a huge fucking deal.

[sheshe2]

1. K&R! Thank you.

[maddezmom]

2. Well said

Most of us can care about a multitude of issues without being distracted from others.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

3. also this literally just happened. the fact that it happened should shock people out of their belief

that we live in some sort of post-racial utopia.

[hfojvt]

70. it happened over 15 months ago

and in that time perhaps 8,000 other young black people have been gunned down. Many of whom were probably not hitting the person who shot them.

A young black man was killed just a few days ago. 31 year old Raymon Thomas, listen to what his sister says http://www.kmbc.com/news/kansas-city/overland-park-police-investigate-driveby-shooting/-/11664182/20974284/-/foutev/-/index.html

Okay, his sister was not in that video, but the story that was done the next day.

But it doesn't matter since it wasn't a hate crime? The shooters were said to be "two heavyset black males". Will they ever be found and brought to justice?

No, the sad fact of America, is that NONE of us are perfectly safe from deadly violence. If one of my nieces gets raped and murdered like that girl (Kelsey Smith) who was shopping at Target in the KC metro did, then it will be very little consolation that her death was not caused by a hate crime, and her killer being quickly put behind bars does not bring her back.

And speaking of hate crimes. My brother related a story where he went shopping for cold medicine one night in a city he was visiting. Made the mistake of going to a store in an area of the city where white people were not welcome. Had to drive out of there in a hurry and was chased. Now my brother has been known to embellish a story, but it does seem plausible, and if he had been killed or beaten, would there be a national outcry? Most of the 150,000 homicides of the last decade have not caused a national outcry.

[Skidmore]

4. That it is...a huge deal.

And not all hate crimes are crimes of violence either. We also need to remember this.

[Hydra]

8. It is a huge deal

And it's a huge step back on the road to equality and justice. Just like the voting rights act being struck down.

2 huge steps back in a relatively short period.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

49. yeah i was just discussing this with someone: multiple things happened very close together

marissa alexander, trayvon martin and the VRA. it created a real concern about race relations

[HipChick]

5. and this is only one case...think about the thousands of cases that have had no national media

exposure..

[Orrex]

6. I've been listening to two average dumb white guys at work

The entire conversation is about reassuring each other that Trayvon's murder wasn't about race until the prosecution tried to make it about race.

and then each they went on at length about the time that some black person did something that they found objectionable.


To my disgust, most of the response I've heard IRL has been from people who are outraged that anyone is outraged at the verdict. The clear, underlying assumption is that Martin must have done something to deserve it.

I agree with you--it would be better if some people remained silent and were thought to be racist assholes instead of opening their big, dumb mouths and removing all doubt.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

9. any social scientist will tell you that multiple experiments show

1. we shoot at blacks more often whether unarmed or carrying innocuous objects 2. we give them less of the benefit of doubt that we do whites. Both these things contribute to shooting an unarmed teenager, in real life.

of course it is about race and specifically the narrative that black are somehow less than human

[Orrex]

10. Yes indeed

Even here on DU I've seen it asserted that Zimmerman's suspicion was justified because there had recently been break-ins and vandalism in the area. But they insist that it wasn't profiling, because Martin fit the description of the suspects. And not because he was black, of course, but because he was a teenager.

Bullshit.

of course it is about race and specifically the narrative that black are somehow less than human

Absolutely, along with the notion that black people are inherently more violent and dangerous, too.

I say categorically that anyone who denies this about Martin's murder is either wholly ignorant of the case or else is a complete idiot and probably racist.

[DeschutesRiver]

12. If trayvon had been a white child, zimmerman would become a hispanic in their eyes,probably illegal

Who should be getting the death penalty. And they'd be bitching about the illegal immigration that allowed this mexican to enter our land and try to pass for white in the first place.

Facts wouldn't matter, just that he was some sort of brown foreign kind of man who killed a white child.

And that juror B37 wouldn't be using his pet name of Georgie either, because if a white child was gunned down, then he would be one of "those people". You know...those boys of color.

And juror 37B did the same stunning analysis that your co workers did, in saying that race was not an issue for her, the other jurors and not at all for georgie. Then added that all past neighborhood crimes were done by black boys, of course. And on and on...

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

15. That's what I said! Exactly!! Zimmerman identifies as white, but rest

assured, had he killed an innocent white kid, white would treat him like a Hispanic for sure!!

[heaven05]

37. he,

zimpig NEVER would have bothered a white kid in the rain with the hoodie up. Moot.And yes, zimpig considers himself white. He's a racist with, in my book, no redeeming qualities.

[Orrex]

16. Great points

One of my esteemed coworkers actually made a statement along these line:
"It can't be about race, because Zimmerman isn't even white."

Nice to be living in post-racial America.

[PsychGrad]

34. I've heard that too...

"But, he's half Mexican!"... Um, Peruvian - but who cares, Hispanics are all the same, right? And, bc he made those comments about Mexicans on his MySpace, "but see! He is talking about his own race, that proves nothing!"...

The stupid has to hurt some days - it just has to.

[justiceischeap]

23. That's because they don't want to admit that they are racist

I think, to some degree, we all have bigotry within us. It's human nature to "fear" what we do not know. It may not be bigotry towards skin color, it could be sexuality or gender. Unfortunately, in the US, the message is given to all of us, whether it be through news or entertainment, that being different is wrong. That if you're black and walking in the rain, wearing a hoodie, you must be doing something wrong. If you're Matthew Shepard and you hit on a straight guy (or not), you deserve to be killed. When I watch a movie and I see a character that is of color, I know, most likely, that character isn't long for the movie (usually one of the first ones to be killed off). That is bigotry and it gets engrained in our psyche.

[Little Star]

7. k&r

[leftstreet]

11. DURec

[CakeGrrl]

13. Sometimes

people are interested in an issue to the degree it affects - or may affect - them personally.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

26. exactly my point.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

14. They want us to be sensitive to the needs of women, of the LGBT community,

of human rights, but when it comes to race, we should just get over it, right?

It's ridiculous!!!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

27. i am not sure who this they is, but i think its fair to say that all these oppressed groups deserve

justice, sensitivity and safety.

[lunasun]

17. Thank You !!!! Exactly

[dkf]

18. How can anyone assume they will never be the victim of a hate crime?

Apparently hate comes from all sides.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

25. there is no cultural hatred of whites and straight people

so if you happen to be both, you are unlikely to be a victim of a hate crime.

that's how.

[dkf]

28. Seems like it is escalating on all sides.

When that happens all bets are off.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

31. really? what does that mean? has there been a rise in hate crimes towards straight white men?

[heaven05]

39. try

Last edited Tue Jul 16, 2013, 02:45 PM - Edit history (1)

not to waste too much time with this poster, dkf. A zimpig supporter and RW agent provocateur. I agree with everything you've said.

[JustAnotherGen]

51. +1

Passive agressive works best with that poster.

[noiretextatique]

55. +2

yep

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

33. Why don't you show us some statistics of the escalating attacks on straight people by gays? nt

[PsychGrad]

38. Thing is -

even within the white community (which I belong to), there is a breakdown of hiearchy of "worthy" vs. "non-worthy". I am an Atheist and get SO much shit for that from my fellow white folks. I am also a very liberal liberal - get tons of shit for that too. Because, many of my fellow Caucasians feel like I'm a traitor to them, and to "our" race. I have experienced hate crimes based on religious beliefs (if that's a hate crime?) and based on my friendships and love for family members who are gay/lesbian/black/whatever. Especially in the white world - if you are not middle class, racist, christian, and conservative - well, you just don't belong.

Don't get me wrong, as a blonde hair blue eyed female, I KNOW I've got it pretty easy - on the outside, I "pass" - until they get to know my beliefs and such, I "pass". I can blend in when I need/want to, or stand out by opening my mouth - but in my day to day - I don't get harassed just for existing. But there always comes that moment - when it's all white folks - and someone assumes that we are all christian/racist/etc. and starts in on something - using the word "nigger" or bagging on the heathens that don't believe in god - that moment when it becomes VERY apparent to them that I am NOT one of them.

I have currently lost about 3 friends on FB due to this - and I'm okay with that (one family member too). I have decided that family or not, friend of 20 years or not - fuck them. This was WRONG, I know it to the core of my being. I will not be convinced otherwise, I will not be "open minded" about hatred/racism/stupidity or be loyal to others simply bc we share blood or skin color. I will go through the loss of friends/family again - bc right is right, and wrong is wrong.

I do often fear that I will be harasses or harmed (they carry a LOT of guns here) or my house or car will be vandalized - simply bc I voted for Obama (twice!), speak out, have friends of all ethnicities, colors, sexual orientations, beliefs, etc. We DO have hate crimes committed against us at times - it isn't as rampant, of course, but it does happen. Usually, it is probably just being ostracized, but to say it never happens, or "rarely" happens, is not quite accurate I don't think.

[heaven05]

40. you

have never been a victim of institutionalized racism. Prejudice, yes. Racism no. Moot.

[PsychGrad]

43. Agreed - not racism.

But aren't they kind of the same coin? I mean - granted, like I said, I don't "look" different than the majority - I was just pointing out that I DO know how it feels to be judged on something that is not my "choice". Trust me, I get it - I really do, and have had deep conversations about this with my black and mixed family members - I have a very good understanding of what they go through. And, I have been caught in the crossfire of racism towards THEM - bc I'm with them, love them, and such. I've seen it and felt it -

I wasn't trying to say it's the same thing -just pointing out that some of us DO know that feeling, and therefore can have empathy for it and understanding, and the realization that it can happen to anyone.

[heaven05]

45. thanks

keep up the good fight.

[jtuck004]

35. And one has to be concerned about snow in the Sahara too...

http://metro.co.uk/2012/02/10/europe-shivers-while-snow-hits-sahara-desert-for-first-time-in-30-years-314912/

Though, compared to the heat, it's a little one-sided.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

46. you win this thread

[dbackjon]

19. For me, the biggest issue was the way the Sanford police handled this from the get go

Proper police work, taking the crime seriously, may have allowed a successful prosecution.
That was a hate crime in and of itself.

[avebury]

20. Well said! nt

[dsc]

21. I don't think anyone is saying it is unimportant

and as to du, I don't ever comment on how its space is used, one way or the other. But I do think that last night MSNBC went overboard on the coverage. All In spent the entire hour on the Zimmerman case not a word about any other news story. Rachel spent close to half her time on it, Lawrence about 2/3 to 3/4. I think about half of each show would have been sufficient.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

24. would you have said this had this been a young gay boy being killed unnecessarily

and i heard rachel maddow, she covered abortion and the virginia governor scandal in great length too

[dsc]

36. yes

I think on an important news day there was too much coverage. BTW, my non confusing wording, mentioned Rachel spent about half her time on the case which I also said was sufficient. Your implication that I didn't give credit to Rachel for covering other news is pretty dishonest. I think half the news cast on each show would have been quite enough which is pretty much what Rachel did.

[heaven05]

41. I don't

think so in regard to gay or white boy of 17 gunned down by a black man wannabe cop,

[dsc]

50. I can't imagine, short of say a political assassination or the death of a current leader

thinking any one death would merit 2:15 minutes out of 3 hours on the nightly news round up.

[heaven05]

52. depends

on the circumstances. But that's just how I think. You're right emmitt till wouldn't have deserved even thirty seconds according to your criteria. Those three girls blown up in church in birminham, ala in 1963 would have deserved a 45 second spot on local news, nothing national. Am I understanding you correctly? So no one death/murder deserves much time in the public eye via news reports, right? Okay. If you say so. I totally disagree.

[dsc]

53. there is a whole bunch of difference between

45 seconds and 2 hours and 15 minutes. Two hours is 7200 seconds 15 minutes is 900 seconds to Trayvon got 8100 seconds of coverage out of a total time of 3 hours or 10800 seconds. Yes I think that was excessive. I think that giving him 5400 seconds would have been sufficient. (btw I said that in my post that you chose to dishonestly ignore). Now 5400 seconds is 120 times the 45 seconds you claimed in your dishonest post. This was in my first post on the subject I think about half of each show would have been sufficient.

[heaven05]

54. okay

you can think he got too much, but thank god he got it! That's all that matters to me here. also thinking about it more, you feel that black kid got too much coverage. So his death is not important enough to merit outrage, demonstrations, marches, anger. Just get on with it. All over, nothing to see here, right?

[noiretextatique]

56. 30 minutes...max

now on to more important, relevant news

[heaven05]

60. 10-4

on the relevant.

[Number23]

62. Kind of blows your mind, doesn't it?

[dsc]

65. yeah half the news show

I think that is sufficient.

[noiretextatique]

68. why don't you write them?

and suggest a more relevant story? i am sure they will listen.

[dsc]

69. I wouldn't necessarily call it more relevent

but on the very same day almost a thousand protesters were arrested in NC in an attempt to stop horrible changes to NC law, including but not limited to, a poll tax for students who vote, a voter ID bill that would be the strictest in the nation, ending Sunday voting, ending one stop voting. Not one word on All In about that. On the very same day the Senate was negotiating a deal that could have ended the filibuster on all executive branch nominees, instead it just got 7 confirimed not one word on All In. I could go on, and on if needed.

[dsc]

66. btw 5400 seconds isn't only 30 minuted

30 x 60 is 1800 seconds. If you don't know that get a calculator, if you do and you typed your post anyhow try not being dishonest.

[heaven05]

63. I

got the 411 on you. My instincts about YOU are correct. You have a wonderful life being you.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

48. i was not trying to be dishonest about Rachel, i just read your statement incorrectly. nt

[Spazito]

22. Well said!

It IS a huge fucking deal!

[OneGrassRoot]

29. Yes. K&R n/t

[Arkansas Granny]

30. I think it should be a big deal for all of us.

To think that an armed person can take it upon himself to stalk an unarmed person for no reason, provoke a confrontation for no reason and then kill the unarmed person because they were afraid of being hurt should cause everyone to discuss this issue. This is like giving someone license to kill.

It could happen to me, it could happen to you, it could happen to anyone.

[PsychGrad]

42. I think this is it...

Because a lot of white folks still feel safe - and they shouldn't. I have a cousin in that area of Florida and a friend - they both have sons - but they are all very white. They are sleeping BETTER at night since this whole thing, bc they have NO idea what they have just unleashed. Ignorance really can be bliss - it can even be reassuring.

I, on the other hand, immediately thought of the fact that now, everyone should be fearful. This is a simple human difference that I have noticed in my life. Some of us have empathy - some of us don't. Some of us can put ourselves into someone else's shoes and understand how they felt - some of us can't. Some of us don't even try to imagine how we would feel if the shoe was on the other foot - we just know that it wasn't us, or "ours", so we feel better, safer, and justified.

This has been a big hang up for me in life - trying to figure out those people that ONLY care about something if it directly affects them in a very substantial and tangible way. I have never understood it and I don't think I ever will. The only word I can come up to describe it is - selfish. And selfishness is ugly - no matter who wears it, imo. It's a base characteristic, primal and unevolved, and shallow and gross... and I find that I have zero respect with people that are selfish. It's like I can't see past it to see any good in them, even though I know that they MUST have some good, we are all a mixture. But, it's the ultimate dealbreaker for me with people - I just can't get past it. It turns my stomach.

And I'm seeing a LOT of it with this case. People that are just flippantly moving past it like it isn't a big deal that a CHILD was killed for no reason at all. That, the profiling of a minor black kid is justified and true and spot on. Ugh... I just can't get it. And there is no doubt in my mind that George Zimmerman would kill anyone of any color - go ahead, when he follows you, confront him and see what happens. But - he won't follow most of us bc we aren't young black men, so some people know that and rest easy - it's disgusting.

[Iggo]

32. Go LP.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. You know the trial entered the significant phase

For me at the verdict stage.

The instructions made it impossible to convict...(SYG) and we could even speak jury nullification.

It is open session on minorities due to it.

[Rex]

47. Some here have no empathy for anyone else.

They live a 'surface' life only. Sad really. And they are totally predictable - something ONLY becomes an issue IF it has happened to them directly. Otherwise, the potential or actual event doesn't exist.

I know people like that in real life, they are hard to handle and have no friends.

[lpbk2713]

57. That needed to be said.

And I'm glad you did. Thank you.

[nomorenomore08]

58. Great post. Totally spot on.

As others have said, it's plain and simply about empathy. Being able to show concern for others even when you're not directly affected by the same issues they are.

[ZombieHorde]

59. Thanks for the perspective. nt

[Starry Messenger]

64. k&r

[Nye Bevan]

67. Of the 8000 or so blacks murdered each year, 93% are murdered by other blacks.

So while the existence of hate crimes is a huge problem, it is not the biggest problem.