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I've said before, and I'll say again - the Jury System needs to go... (Original Post) OmahaBlueDog Jul 2013 OP
Florida needs to go. nt valerief Jul 2013 #1
I lived in Florida for almost 20 years OmahaBlueDog Jul 2013 #2
Florida will go Jawja Jul 2013 #80
I'm not going there. Who is to decide? Gov't goons? But a 12 person Jury should be law. eom Purveyor Jul 2013 #3
I'd favor professional jurors OmahaBlueDog Jul 2013 #5
"Selected" by whom? eom Purveyor Jul 2013 #8
They could be appointed positions, hired by the chief judge, or competitive application positions. OmahaBlueDog Jul 2013 #12
"competitive application positions." Purveyor Jul 2013 #21
And be checked for ability to think rationally, show intellignce, have strong ethical beliefs, lumpy Jul 2013 #26
That'd be ideal. I'd settle for an IQ higher than that of broccoli OmahaBlueDog Jul 2013 #28
Those are called "judges" n/t backscatter712 Jul 2013 #18
But actual judges have the added burden of managing the proceedings OmahaBlueDog Jul 2013 #23
Just saying that one of the prime duties of judges is deciding verdicts. backscatter712 Jul 2013 #24
Fair enough OmahaBlueDog Jul 2013 #27
Then they wouldn't be our peers. X_Digger Jul 2013 #70
Theoretically, anyone in America is your peer OmahaBlueDog Jul 2013 #74
What you're proposing is an institutional class system of jurors. X_Digger Jul 2013 #75
As I replied to NYC Liberal downthread, the system won't change OmahaBlueDog Jul 2013 #79
Yeah, it's kind of like that quote.. X_Digger Jul 2013 #81
Horrible idea. I'd rather a few guilty walk than morningfog Jul 2013 #4
In the 90s, I was on a jury for a murder trial OmahaBlueDog Jul 2013 #7
Jurors shouldn't be picked so randomly. Not enough time goes into Jury selection. Some people lumpy Jul 2013 #35
Same on DU DainBramaged Jul 2013 #6
Agree. DU jurys are not following DU rules in many cases. L0oniX Jul 2013 #9
Aye lumpy Jul 2013 #36
So take power away from the people, is what you are saying? davidn3600 Jul 2013 #10
I'm saying you need to be a doctor or nurse to be in the medical system OmahaBlueDog Jul 2013 #13
It's the way they select them marions ghost Jul 2013 #22
The input on DU proves your point. And about lawyers, so many are unethical and downright lumpy Jul 2013 #41
Agree --many lawyers are unethical marions ghost Jul 2013 #54
and their popularity in public opinion polls RegexReader Jul 2013 #66
I think it's the same prosecutor who investigated Casey Anthony NightWatcher Jul 2013 #11
That would stand to reason OmahaBlueDog Jul 2013 #14
Not yet. I'm in north Florida and haven't had the chance yet NightWatcher Jul 2013 #16
I'd like to go. It's supposed to be lovely. OmahaBlueDog Jul 2013 #19
I'm with you on that marions ghost Jul 2013 #15
"The first potential jurors to go in the selection process will be the smart looking ones..." OmahaBlueDog Jul 2013 #17
Thanks for corroborating marions ghost Jul 2013 #25
No thanks. NaturalHigh Jul 2013 #20
And you can say a third time, and I'll continue disagreeing with you. closeupready Jul 2013 #29
But that's what makes DU great OmahaBlueDog Jul 2013 #31
Oh, absolutely, my friend. :-) closeupready Jul 2013 #32
If only we had a king. n/t Skip Intro Jul 2013 #30
The Lady of the Lake OmahaBlueDog Jul 2013 #33
Listen. FarCenter Jul 2013 #34
BE QUIET! OmahaBlueDog Jul 2013 #38
You can't expect to wield supreme power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you! FarCenter Jul 2013 #39
SHUT UP! WILL YOU SHUT UP ?!?! OmahaBlueDog Jul 2013 #42
I mean, if I went around saying, FarCenter Jul 2013 #44
Shut up! OmahaBlueDog Jul 2013 #48
Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system. FarCenter Jul 2013 #52
SHUT UP! OmahaBlueDog Jul 2013 #53
Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! HELP! HELP! I'm being repressed! FarCenter Jul 2013 #55
BLOODY PEASANT! OmahaBlueDog Jul 2013 #57
Oh, what a give away. Did you hear that, did you here that, eh? FarCenter Jul 2013 #58
LOL OmahaBlueDog Jul 2013 #59
This message was self-deleted by its author LuvNewcastle Jul 2013 #49
Love it.... lumpy Jul 2013 #45
Maybe. It would have to be at least 3 though... There are corrupt ecstatic Jul 2013 #37
That's a whole 'nother very scary story OmahaBlueDog Jul 2013 #40
I miss unrec. JVS Jul 2013 #43
I never saw the point of unrec OmahaBlueDog Jul 2013 #46
Casey Anthony deserved to be acquitted. There was no evidence of murder. duffyduff Jul 2013 #47
Robert Blake OmahaBlueDog Jul 2013 #50
The problem is not so much the jurors as the process and the lawyers. FarCenter Jul 2013 #51
no. nt Demo_Chris Jul 2013 #56
A jury by your peers is a crap shoot. Rex Jul 2013 #60
Three cases out of how many thousands? NYC Liberal Jul 2013 #61
You think these are the only cases juries have screwed up? OmahaBlueDog Jul 2013 #64
Good luck amending the constitution, which guarantees jury trials in no less than three different NYC Liberal Jul 2013 #68
As I said to Nye Bevan, I agree with you more often than not OmahaBlueDog Jul 2013 #76
Pretty cavalier to throw out a system that dates back to Magna Carta in 1215, Nye Bevan Jul 2013 #62
Nye, I agree with you far more often than not OmahaBlueDog Jul 2013 #65
No, thanks. Anyone here who wants one can get a non-jury trial. n/t pnwmom Jul 2013 #63
No thanks. It is a cultural treasure, bequeathed to us through the old English law struggle4progress Jul 2013 #67
Not many people are angrier than I am Nevernose Jul 2013 #69
I won't speak to Casey Anthony dsc Jul 2013 #71
Ridiculous LittleBlue Jul 2013 #72
the jury system is just fine, thank you very much. HiPointDem Jul 2013 #73
I'm more inclined to blame lawmakers. TroglodyteScholar Jul 2013 #77
Probably correct in this instance OmahaBlueDog Jul 2013 #83
We should all just defer to our educated "betters" right? Pelican Jul 2013 #78
You're wrong. We need an INFORMED and ETHICAL populace. Avalux Jul 2013 #82

OmahaBlueDog

(10,000 posts)
2. I lived in Florida for almost 20 years
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:23 PM
Jul 2013

Lot's of good, decent folks live there.

That said, I now live in Nebraska.

Jawja

(3,233 posts)
80. Florida will go
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 12:02 PM
Jul 2013

When Global Warming influences the sea levels. Florida is eventually toast; and good riddance.

OmahaBlueDog

(10,000 posts)
5. I'd favor professional jurors
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:24 PM
Jul 2013

A pool of individuals who've at least received the equivalent of Para-Legal training, and who will make some effort to follow the law.

OmahaBlueDog

(10,000 posts)
12. They could be appointed positions, hired by the chief judge, or competitive application positions.
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:29 PM
Jul 2013

In terms of trial assignment, they'd be randomly assigned, with the caveat that they'd recuse for individuals they know, etc.

 

Purveyor

(29,876 posts)
21. "competitive application positions."
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:35 PM
Jul 2013

They could be appointed positions, hired by the chief judge, or competitive application positions.

LOL.

lumpy

(13,704 posts)
26. And be checked for ability to think rationally, show intellignce, have strong ethical beliefs,
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:44 PM
Jul 2013

and have been educated in all areas, especially other cultures.

OmahaBlueDog

(10,000 posts)
28. That'd be ideal. I'd settle for an IQ higher than that of broccoli
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:46 PM
Jul 2013

Note: I do not mean to insult broccoli.

OmahaBlueDog

(10,000 posts)
23. But actual judges have the added burden of managing the proceedings
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:36 PM
Jul 2013

...acting on objections, deciding what's admissible, etc. Professional jurors wouldn't have that burden.

backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
24. Just saying that one of the prime duties of judges is deciding verdicts.
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:39 PM
Jul 2013

But I do like your idea of separating the jobs - you have jurors, who are essentially judges, who are trained as lawyers like today's judges are, and who have one job: decide the verdict as fairly as possible. Then you have a new role, that of moderator, who manages the courtroom and facilitates the trial.

OmahaBlueDog

(10,000 posts)
27. Fair enough
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:44 PM
Jul 2013

My argument is not really with you, and my anger is not directed at you or the others in this thread.

OmahaBlueDog

(10,000 posts)
74. Theoretically, anyone in America is your peer
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 11:56 AM
Jul 2013

We don't have titles of nobility or an institutionalized class system.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
75. What you're proposing is an institutional class system of jurors.
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 11:57 AM
Jul 2013

I.. errm.. If you can't see the irony of your post in light of what you proposed..

*shakes my head*

OmahaBlueDog

(10,000 posts)
79. As I replied to NYC Liberal downthread, the system won't change
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 12:02 PM
Jul 2013

My dislike of the jury system will be largely limited to useless ranting.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
81. Yeah, it's kind of like that quote..
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 12:03 PM
Jul 2013

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

Sir Winston Churchill British politician (1874 - 1965)

 

morningfog

(18,115 posts)
4. Horrible idea. I'd rather a few guilty walk than
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:24 PM
Jul 2013

Lose the jury system. If you look at the stats, acquittals are more common with juries than judges. That means more wrongfully accused are incarcerated by judges. It is better for a few guilty to walk than for an innocent person to be locked up. juries are imperfect, but so are judges.

OmahaBlueDog

(10,000 posts)
7. In the 90s, I was on a jury for a murder trial
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:27 PM
Jul 2013

I was voir dire'd for another murder trial on another occasion, and voir dire'd for a civil suit and a robbery on still another occasion. I had a friend do time for something that to this day I'm convinved was a wwrongful conviction. I see nothing good about the jury system. Sorry.

lumpy

(13,704 posts)
35. Jurors shouldn't be picked so randomly. Not enough time goes into Jury selection. Some people
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:58 PM
Jul 2013

should never be on a jury; having known of a few definately unqualified to decide results of any case. More time and effort should be given in jury selection; a six person jury is too small for a high profile trial.

OmahaBlueDog

(10,000 posts)
13. I'm saying you need to be a doctor or nurse to be in the medical system
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:30 PM
Jul 2013

..you should have to have some training to participate in the legal system. Lives are at stake there as well.

marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
22. It's the way they select them
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:35 PM
Jul 2013

crafty lawyers will pack juries with the lowest info jurors they can get. They can tell, too.

If lawyers did not select juries, but they were randomly selected--it would be far better. Much more fair. Otherwise just go to judges. This isn't really a good example of people power. The people are easily manipulated.

lumpy

(13,704 posts)
41. The input on DU proves your point. And about lawyers, so many are unethical and downright
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 11:07 PM
Jul 2013

corrupt. This is a profession that should be held to the highest standards; it can be a matter of life or death or justice.

marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
54. Agree --many lawyers are unethical
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 11:20 PM
Jul 2013

I have had occasion to observe and I see it. The way it works now gives them too many opportunities to game the system. People would be appalled if they really knew how vulnerable we all are to corrupt lawyers and miscarriages of justice. We are all vulnerable.

I so wish it had turned out differently in this case, but maybe it will wake people up to the problems.

OmahaBlueDog

(10,000 posts)
14. That would stand to reason
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:31 PM
Jul 2013

On an unrelated note - I see the Marlins logo -- have you been to the new stadium?

marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
15. I'm with you on that
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:32 PM
Jul 2013

and one of the main reasons is the way they can pack juries. "Jury selection" is not random. It's really amazing to watch in action--how a lawyer can win mainly by profiling the jurors and selecting for those who will win his/her case. The first potential jurors to go in the selection process will be the smart looking ones, the professionals, the nurses, doctors, academics etc.

They look for the gullible, the lo-info, the easily manipulated.

I would be fine with 3-judge tribunals for criminal & big money cases, with Judge Judy for all the small stuff.

OmahaBlueDog

(10,000 posts)
17. "The first potential jurors to go in the selection process will be the smart looking ones..."
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:33 PM
Jul 2013

Exactly right!

marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
25. Thanks for corroborating
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:40 PM
Jul 2013

--people don't always believe me when I say that, and they cling to a system that really is not working very well. Either we need to have a different selection system or go to judges.

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
29. And you can say a third time, and I'll continue disagreeing with you.
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:46 PM
Jul 2013

The jury system gets some verdicts wrong. EOS.

OmahaBlueDog

(10,000 posts)
31. But that's what makes DU great
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:48 PM
Jul 2013

There are still issues upon which we can disagree while, at our core, supporting the goals of the Democratic party.

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
32. Oh, absolutely, my friend. :-)
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:51 PM
Jul 2013

Not saying that to cut you off or to stop the discussion; just putting my own feeling about it out there.

And I DO understand why some people are sick of the jury system.

There are lots of things about our judicial system that I think most fair people are uneasy about.

OmahaBlueDog

(10,000 posts)
33. The Lady of the Lake
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:51 PM
Jul 2013

The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by devine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur.

That is why I'm your king.


(even in moments of despair, I attempt to find humor)

 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
34. Listen.
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 10:57 PM
Jul 2013

Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
44. I mean, if I went around saying,
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 11:09 PM
Jul 2013

"I was an emperor just because some moistened bink had lobbed a scimitar at me" they'd put me away!

 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
58. Oh, what a give away. Did you hear that, did you here that, eh?
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 11:23 PM
Jul 2013

That's what I'm on about -- did you see him repressing me, you saw it didn't you?


The scene ends as OmahaBlueDog rides off in disgust.

Response to FarCenter (Reply #34)

ecstatic

(32,705 posts)
37. Maybe. It would have to be at least 3 though... There are corrupt
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 11:00 PM
Jul 2013

judges who work in cooperation with private prisons and get kickbacks for each person they lock up.

OmahaBlueDog

(10,000 posts)
40. That's a whole 'nother very scary story
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 11:06 PM
Jul 2013

For those who don't know....

http://www.ibtimes.com/kids-cash-trial-ciavarella-found-guilty-racketeering-tax-fraud-cleared-extortion-bribery-charges


The trial of Mark Ciavarella, a former Pennsylvania judge who has been charged with racketeering, fraud, money laundering, extortion, bribery and federal tax violations, drew to a close on Friday with the jury returning a guilty verdict.

Ciavarella was found guilty, Friday, of 12 of 39 counts of corruption filed against him, including racketeering and fraud charges.

The jury at the federal courthouse in Scranton returned to U.S. District Judge for the Middle District of Pennsylvania Edwin M. Kosik’s courtroom with the finding that Ciavarella was guilty of racketeering, racketeering conspiracy, honest services mail fraud, money laundering conspiracy and a host of tax fraud charges. The former judge was, however, cleared of extortion, bribery and honest services wire fraud charges.

The former judge faces a maximum sentence of 157 years in prison.

OmahaBlueDog

(10,000 posts)
46. I never saw the point of unrec
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 11:10 PM
Jul 2013

If one doesn't like a thread, disagree with it or start one's own.

 

duffyduff

(3,251 posts)
47. Casey Anthony deserved to be acquitted. There was no evidence of murder.
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 11:10 PM
Jul 2013

Jodi Arias should have been acquitted, but that jury was not sequestered and Maricopa County is one hell of a corrupt place.

The jury screwed up with O.J., also with Robert Blake.

It sure as hell screwed up with Zimmerman.

 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
51. The problem is not so much the jurors as the process and the lawyers.
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 11:15 PM
Jul 2013

The lawyers (and the judge?) get to dismiss a lot of candidate jurors and lots of jurors take themselves off the panel.

The jurors are only allowed to consider the evidence presented by the lawyers. Generally they can't ask questions or follow up on loose ends in the lawyers presentations or witnesses testimony.

Lawyers usually spend more time playing to emotions that presenting facts and making logical arguments.

I've served on a jury in a trial where the both lawyers seemed incapable of a coherent thought.

I also know a person serving time who was incompetently represented by a lawyer who was a friend of a family member, and not really a criminal defense lawyer.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
60. A jury by your peers is a crap shoot.
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 11:25 PM
Jul 2013

IMO. I let my bias of it being an all female jury would minimum have a manslaughter charge against him. I was wrong.

NYC Liberal

(20,136 posts)
61. Three cases out of how many thousands?
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 11:29 PM
Jul 2013

Speaking of judges and tribunals -- what's the Supreme Court's record look like the past 10-20 years?

OmahaBlueDog

(10,000 posts)
64. You think these are the only cases juries have screwed up?
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 11:39 PM
Jul 2013

Someone (I can't remember who) said about the jury system that you're being tried by "..the only people who were too stupid to get out of jury duty."

NYC Liberal

(20,136 posts)
68. Good luck amending the constitution, which guarantees jury trials in no less than three different
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 01:05 AM
Jul 2013

places.

What is the ratio of cases that juries have screwed up to the cases they've gotten right?

And why do you think judges are so much better? Ever hear of "Kids for Cash"?

OmahaBlueDog

(10,000 posts)
76. As I said to Nye Bevan, I agree with you more often than not
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 11:59 AM
Jul 2013

..so we'll just disagree here.

What is the ratio of cases that juries have screwed up to the cases they've gotten right? Honestly, I have no statistics. I wouldn't know where to go. I would hope that the ratio is higher than the ratio of judges sending children into virtual slavery, or we're all in trouble.

As you say, the constitution would never be amended, so the discussion is moot.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
62. Pretty cavalier to throw out a system that dates back to Magna Carta in 1215,
Sat Jul 13, 2013, 11:34 PM
Jul 2013

on the basis of three cases whose outcomes you disliked.

Personally I like the jury system.

Nevernose

(13,081 posts)
69. Not many people are angrier than I am
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 01:08 AM
Jul 2013

But it's better if juries get it wrong now and then than to give up that right.

It would be better of Florida did something about sleazy defense lawyers playing a smoke and mirrors game, disregarding the facts, and helping killers walk free.

dsc

(52,162 posts)
71. I won't speak to Casey Anthony
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 01:22 AM
Jul 2013

but in this case it is the law that is the problem, not the jury. The jury correctly applied a badly written law. Any law which treats the affirmative defense of self defense as something that needs disproven beyond reasonable doubt is gong to lead to a lot of acquitals of guilty people.

 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
72. Ridiculous
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 01:23 AM
Jul 2013

Strongly disagree. You can't do away with the jury system due to a few outcomes in high-profile cases.

TroglodyteScholar

(5,477 posts)
77. I'm more inclined to blame lawmakers.
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 12:01 PM
Jul 2013

If the laws weren't so fucked up in the first place, I think the jury system would work just fine.

OmahaBlueDog

(10,000 posts)
83. Probably correct in this instance
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 12:06 PM
Jul 2013
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/07/law-and-justice-and-george-zimmerman/277772/

In the next few hours and days you'll likely be inundated with analysis and commentary and solemn expressions of outrage or joy about what the acquittal of George Zimmerman means -- to the nation, to its rule of law, to its politics, to its racial divide, to its deadly obsession with guns, to Florida's ALEC-infused justice system, and to probably 100 other things I can't list off the top of my head. This is what happens when a verdict comes down in a high-profile criminal trial -- when life or liberty are on the line and the country is split, and angrily so, upon the wisdom and the justice of the outcome.

To me, on its most basic level, the startling Zimmerman verdict -- and the case and trial that preceded it -- is above all a blunt reminder of the limitations of our justice system. Criminal trials are not searches for the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. They never have been. Our rules of evidence and the Bill of Rights preclude it. Our trials are instead tests of only that limited evidence a judge declares fit to be shared with jurors, who in turn are then admonished daily, hourly even, not to look beyond the corners of what they've seen or heard in court.

Trials like the one we've all just witnessed in Florida can therefore never fully answer the larger societal questions they pose. They can never act as moral surrogates to resolve the national debates they trigger. In the end, they teach only what each of us as students are predisposed to learn. They provide no closure, not to the families or anyone else, even as they represent the close of one phase of the rest of the lives of the people involved. They are tiny slivers of the truth of the matter, the perspective as narrow as if you were staring at the horizon with blinders on, capable only of seeing what was not intentionally blocked from view.

Avalux

(35,015 posts)
82. You're wrong. We need an INFORMED and ETHICAL populace.
Sun Jul 14, 2013, 12:04 PM
Jul 2013

If "we the people" are uneducated and biased by religion/race/gender/class conditioning, that conditioning takes precedence and the jury system, which in theory is fair, will fail.

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