Thomas Tamm: “I do think it was courageous” for Snowden to become a fellow NSA whistleblower"

[think]

Yet another whistleblower shows support for Snowden:

What happens to whistleblowers?
By DAVID NATHER | 6/13/13 2:33 PM EDT Updated: 6/14/13 10:33 AM EDT

Edward Snowden might want to talk to a slew of recent national security leakers who learned a lesson the hard way: whistleblowing comes at a price.

Thomas Tamm, the DOJ attorney who told the New York Times about the National Security Agency’s surveillance program in 2004, struggled to stay employed for the five years he was under federal investigation.

~Snip~

“I do think it was courageous” for Snowden to become a fellow NSA whistleblower, said Tamm. “Clearly, his intent was not to help any of our enemies” — just as Tamm is convinced he didn’t help the nation’s enemies by drawing attention to the surveillance troubles he saw.

And although critics have said Snowden should have turned to someone else first — like taking his concerns to Congress, rather than the media — Tamm says he tried that before approaching the Times, and it didn’t work.

“I certainly understand why he did it,” Tamm said.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/06/what-happens-to-whistleblowers-92744.html#ixzz2YrQU3yVP

[ProSense]

1. Tamm:

“He’s in for a pretty overwhelming investigation,” Tamm, now a criminal defense attorney in Rockville, Md., told POLITICO in an interview. “I think the government will use a lot of their resources to try to find him.”

But if Snowden is returned to the United States, Tamm said, “I think with the right representation, and with the right way of presenting what he did, I think he’ll be able to put his life back together.” Tamm says he’d even be willing to be part of the defense team.

Like I said, there have been several prominent whistleblowers over the last several years who did not flee the country.

William Binney, Thomas Drake, and Thomas Tamm are whistleblowers who stayed and faced the consequences of their actions. They were not persecuted, they faced prosecution. They are not in jail. In fact, Tamm was the one who exposed Bush's illegal eavesdropping on Americans.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023198589

[think]

3. Does Tamm support Snowden as a whistleblower or not?

[ProSense]

4. Sure, but

"Does Tamm support Snowden as a whistleblower or not?"

...I don't have to agree with him. These comments are from mid-June, and don't take into account revealing U.S. state secrets to other countries.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023231312

[think]

7. You don't agree with him yet you still use him as an example:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3032225

And you seem to ignore the repercussions Thomas Tamm mentions for staying within the system...

[ProSense]

15. Yes,

"You don't agree with him yet you still use him as an example:"

...he's an example of someone who leaked information on an illegal activity, didn't flee the country and isn't in jail.

[think]

18. He isn't in jail yet you ignore that Tamm's house was raided by the FBI

and was involved in a criminal investigation for his leaks for over 4 years...

Wikipedia: Thomas Tamm

Over a year later in 2007, his house was raided by the FBI agents [4] on suspicion of his involvement in leaking the details, but it wasn't until 2008 — online on the 13 December,[citation needed] and then in the December 22, 2008 issue of Newsweek [5] — that his role was confirmed and he began speaking out publicly.[6]

On April 26, 2011, after a lengthy criminal investigation, the Justice Department announced that it would be dropping its investigation of Tamm and would not file charges.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Tamm

He also struggled for 5 years to find employment after blowing the whistle

That's the reward for doing the right thing?

[randome]

23. The Bush Admin did that. The Obama Admin dropped the charges.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[think]

27. Yes. In 2011.... he was a whistle blower not a criminal....

[randome]

30. Agreed. That's what he was.

And Snowden is a pontificating buffoon who has no evidence to back up his outrageous claims.

Do you see the difference?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[think]

37. So you agree he's a whistleblower but disagree when Tamm calls Snowden a whistleblower?

[randome]

39. Obviously Tamm was a whistleblower.

But I don't have to agree with everything Tamm says and I don't have to agree with everything Snowden says. If Snowden was half as clever as he thinks he is, he would have stolen more pointed evidence than PowerPoint slides.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[think]

41. You don't have to agree with the other whistleblowers who support Snowden either

Tice, Binney, Drake, Wiebe, Edmonds, Ellsberg....

[randome]

56. Tice hasn't worked for the NSA since 2005.

And he's been making more and more ridiculous claims every year so I think something's a little 'off' with him. Binney agreed that Snowden 'may have' crossed the line into espionage. So does, I believe, Edmonds.

And Ellsberg is just plain wrong. He had proof, the Pentagon Papers. Snowden has PowerPoint slides.

I try to look at everyone's claims to see how authentic they sound. Snowden's claims do not at all sound authentic so I don't see where the 'courageous' part comes in.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[think]

57. You forgot to shoot down Thomas Drake & J. Kirk Wiebe

And we haven't scraped the mold off Tice's testimony yet so it may be unwise to passively dismiss it & him as ancient history since his newest claims are huge.

And Tice is willing to testify before congress but congress replied they didn't have high enough security clearance to hear his testimony.

Now that's just messed up....

[randome]

61. There is a lot that's messed up. About the NSA and the FISA system and the Patriot Act.

We need more transparency and less secrecy all around. Still doesn't mean I'm going to give credence to Snowden's claims without evidence.

FISA was begun in 1978 and the more recent changes to the Patriot Act took away the ability of the executive branch to engage in the abuses that Bush did.

That said, we can still make things better.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[think]

63. Agree. I would add limiting the role of private contractors in America's spy industry to that.

Booz Allen has already been given a pass for their involvement in the Snowden affair by the military.

Given the revolving door at Booz allen it does not surprise me the military moved quickly to absolve the private contractors of any wrong doings....

[DesMoinesDem]

68. Yea. Real whistleblowers provide NO documents.

Thousands of top secret documents aren't proof of anything! I only believe people that don't have any documents. That's real evidence.

[hootinholler]

29. ROFL in 2011!

What color is your sky?

[randome]

35. I have no idea why it took so long.

But I'm not sure any of us know how this case wound through the various departments. It's easy enough to imagine delays from both sides, maybe even the DOJ sitting on the case long enough so that the GOP could not make their usual 'weak on national security' claim.

Who knows? That's only conjecture on my part. But the result is that charges were dropped by this administration.

Tamm at least had truth and evidence. Snowden has nothing but a few PowerPoint slides and some outrageous claims.

There is a big difference between the two.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[hootinholler]

50. What both sides?

I wasn't aware there is a defense during an investigation at least in the sense that the defense can file motions that will obstruct or delay it.

I somehow doubt it simply sat on someones desk for a couple of years, but I suppose it is possible.

[randome]

54. I was guessing there may have been defense motions but if it never went to trial strike that.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[randome]

21. And the charges were dropped by the Obama administration.

How very 'authoritarian' of him.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[totodeinhere]

60. And Bradley Manning was an example of someone who was tortured according to the

UN.

[cali]

64. fairly stomach turning

it's just not an honest use of Tamm to make the argument that poster is pressing.

[magellan]

5. They didn't flee the country, and they're virtually unknown

As is the info they tried to expose.

[whatchamacallit]

6. I love how the same people who claim he has no reason to fear government reprisal

also make it clear they'd carry his head through the streets on a stake if he did come back.

[Progressive dog]

13. Thomas Tamm had no charges brought

against him, and you really expect government reprisal against Airport Eddie.

[whatchamacallit]

16. What, you don't?

Look at Manning for christ's sake.

[Progressive dog]

19. The post was about Tamm civilian, Snowden civilian, and you

added Manning military, for Christ's sake,

[whatchamacallit]

33. ...

[think]

42. Tamm had his house raided by the FBI and was under criminal investigation

for over four years...

Wikipedia: Thomas Tamm

Over a year later in 2007, his house was raided by the FBI agents [4] on suspicion of his involvement in leaking the details, but it wasn't until 2008 — online on the 13 December,[citation needed] and then in the December 22, 2008 issue of Newsweek [5] — that his role was confirmed and he began speaking out publicly.[6]

On April 26, 2011, after a lengthy criminal investigation, the Justice Department announced that it would be dropping its investigation of Tamm and would not file charges.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Tamm

[hootinholler]

25. "They were not persecuted" - Really?

What do you call a 5 year investigation that yields nothing?

[think]

48. well at least they weren't tortured

physically....

[JDPriestly]

53. I recall a discussion around the time that Homeland Security was created and the Patriot Act

was passed that suggested Congress was considering exempting certain security-related personnel from whistleblower protection. My recollection could be wrong. I was quite horrified at the time. Here is an article from 2003.

From the Spring 2003 issue of The News Media & The Law, page 14.



. . . .
Whistleblowers in the FBI and the Transportation Security Administration, a new agency formed after the terrorist attacks, which is now responsible for air safety, said they faced reprisals from their employers for pointing out security lapses.

. . . .

In 1989, Congress passed the Whistleblower Protection Act, which protected from retaliation federal employees who "reasonably believe" that their disclosure reveals gross mismanagement or a substantial and specific danger to public health or safety.

Since then, federal courts, along with federal agencies that have discretion over security clearances, have stripped away many of the protections that once buffered whistleblowers. This has made agencies such as the FBI and the TSA significantly less effective, according to whistleblower advocates and various U.S. senators, including Daniel Akaka (D-Hawaii) and Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa).

In addition, journalists who rely on whistleblowers to expose flaws within federal bureaucracies have been unable to cover important stories because sources are unwilling to speak for fear of reprisal.

http://www.rcfp.org/browse-media-law-resources/news-media-law/news-media-and-law-spring-2003/homeland-fails-protect-whis

And so this is an example of situations in which the lack of protection for whistleblowers and their potential criminal liability violates the freedom of the press. It limits journalists' freedom to interview sources and find information and our freedom to read a free press.

This program and the lack of whistleblower rights is incompatible with freedom.

The program needs a major, fundamental overhaul. It is way out of line with our Constitution.

[Cha]

67. Excellent points, ProSense..

Mahalo.

[MotherPetrie]

2. K&R

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Another "traitor" speaks

Thanks...how many of these until certain talking points, including treason, no longer resonate?

[think]

9. The credit goes to another DUer. Never heard of Thomas Tamm until mentioned here....

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. The war on whistleblowers is epic

[cali]

11. What Tam and Drake and other whistleblowers think of Snowden has much more

value and weight than what I or other DUers think of him.

[Catherina]

12. +1. Their endoresement, their solidarity speaks volumes n/t

[think]

17. Apparently whistleblowers are persona non grata to congress,the M$M, Booz Allen

etc etc.

Were things as they should be congress would be calling these people to testify secret law be damned...

Whistleblowers need a Bill Of Rights & and Obligations that allows them protection and gives them a clear understanding of their obligations. No more gag orders. No more harassment. No more indictments when following the proper channels.

Whistleblowers are heroes for the American people. Not people to vilify on behalf of "The Company"

JMO....

[cali]

44. the contempt and dismissiveness which they're greeted with here

disgusts me.

I agree with all that you said.

[think]

46. I must admit I never thought I'd see whistleblowers treated like this.

Especially ones that helped undo some of the evils perpetrated by the Bush administration.

[ProSense]

14. How the Snowden Affair Became a Freak Show

How the Snowden Affair Became a Freak Show
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023235597

[cali]

22. Oh my god. The irony of your saying this, is overwhelming.

You don't have a clue, do you. No, don't bother responding, that was wholly rhetorical.

[LondonReign2]

26. She does not understand the concept of irony

That was quite clear in this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023204132

[ProSense]

34. Actually,

"She does not understand the concept of irony"

...yes, I do: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023204132#post71

And stop projecting.

[LondonReign2]

40. Sorry, you remain wrong. It'd be OK to admit it, we won't think less highly of you.

[RC]

65. That is correct.

[cali]

43. could you look more desperate?

I hate to break this to you but posting that link won't make you look less so. And it just doesn't bother me, so you fail there. Oh, and no, that has nothing to do with irony.

[LondonReign2]

49. I think I can help

Perhaps it would be helpful to illustrate through examples:

Your statement: “Greenwald thinks Snowden should be pardoned, but thinks he won’t be because Greenwald believes Obama is vindictive” <--NOT IRONIC

Another example: “Bush should admit he started a war in Iraq based on lies, but he won’t because he is a dry drunk chickenhawk” <--NOT IRONIC

An example by way of contrast: “What Obama is doing is perfectly acceptable” – person who thought it was horrible when Bush was doing it. <--IRONIC

Hope this is a helpful guide

[hootinholler]

36. I thought she was quite good at irony in that thread. n/t

[LondonReign2]

38. By insisting a word means something it doesn't?

Ok then

[hootinholler]

45. No, by insisting on the knowledge of what irony means

and consistently getting it wrong. Rather, um, ironic.

[LondonReign2]

47. LOL!

[ProSense]

31. There's

"Oh my god. The irony of your saying this, is overwhelming.

You don't have a clue, do you. No, don't bother responding, that was wholly rhetorical."

..."irony" everywhere: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023230731

Here's one "clue" I do have: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=152034&sub=trans

It explains your response.

[woo me with science]

20. Our government is conducting a chilling campaign of intimidation

against protesters, whistleblowers, and journalists.

This is what nascent corporate fascism looks like.


What The Fuck... Have WE... Done To America - Remember when Ellsberg was released on bond?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3213577

President's 'rat out your co-worker' plan, unlikely to work experts say
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3214675

'Hactivist' who exposed government abuse faces 10 Years in Federal prison. Already in solitary for weeks at a time and denied access to family...PRIOR to conviction
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023220775#post19

Thomas Tamm: “I do think it was courageous” for Snowden to become a fellow NSA whistleblower"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023235376

[railsback]

52. Truly, America is dying a fast death

Look at Binney, Drake, and Tamm, sentenced to life of hard labor, breaking rocks, and solitary confinement.

[think]

55. And all were persecuted while still following the rules. Many indicted or

put under criminal investigation.

John Kiriakou is serving a 30 month sentence for providing the documents to prove the Bush administration was using torture.

Wikipedia: john Kiriakou

~Snip~

He is notable as the first official within the U.S. government to confirm the use of waterboarding of al-Qaeda prisoners as an interrogation technique, which he described as torture.[5][6]

On October 22, 2012, Kiriakou pled guilty to disclosing classified information about a fellow CIA officer that connected the covert operative to a specific operation. Kiriakou thus became the second C.I.A. officer convicted of violation of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act and the first for passing along classified information to a reporter, although the reporter did not publish the name of the operative.[7] He was sentenced to 30 months in prison on January 25, 2013,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kiriakou

These people are true heroes for the American people who risked it all to expose enormous crimes. Why on earth should these brave Americans be treated like this?

[railsback]

58. LoL. Kiriakou was writing a book to financially capitalize. Geezuz.

Those three are free men. They stood their ground and didn't run. Imagining what Snowden might have faced if he stayed, to legitimize his fleeing the country, doesn't mean a hill of beans.

[think]

59. Got a link for that? Not doubting you. Just have not seen....

[AllINeedIsCoffee]

24. I'm not impressed when people project. nt

[think]

28. ???

[Laelth]

32. k&r for exposure. n/t

-Laelth

[frylock]

51. knr

[DeSwiss]

62. K&R

- I'm just hanging around for the KARMA show. It should be a doozy!

[Octafish]

66. USA doesn't need a GULAG to destroy good people's lives.

"Thomas Tamm...struggled to stay employed for the five years he was under federal investigation."

Who knew telling the truth was un-American?