Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

xchrom

(108,903 posts)
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 07:13 AM Jul 2013

How Unchecked Capitalism Has Brought the World to the Brink of Apocalypse -- and What We Must Do Now

http://www.alternet.org/visions/how-unchecked-capitalism-has-brought-world-brink-apocalypse-and-what-we-must-do-now



July 9, 2013 |
The following is an excerpt from We Are All Apocalyptic Now: On the Responsibilities of Teaching, Preaching, Reporting, Writing, and Speaking Out , in print at Amazon.com and on Kindle (CreateSpace Independent Publishing Platform, 2013):

The first step in dealing with a difficult situation is to muster the courage to face it honestly, to assess the actual depth and severity of a problem and identify the systems from which the problem emerges. The existing social, economic, and political systems produce a distribution of wealth and well-being that is inconsistent with moral principles, as the ecological capital of the planet is drawn down faster than it can regenerate. The systems that structure almost all human societies produce profoundly unjust and fundamentally unsustainable results. We have both a moral obligation and practical reasons to work for justice and sustainability.

We need first to imagine, and then begin to create, alternative systems that will reduce inequality and slow, and we hope eventually reverse, the human assault on the ecosphere. To work toward those goals, individuals can (and should) make changes in their personal lives to consume less; corporations can (and should) be subject to greater regulation; and the most corrupt political leaders can (and should) be turned out of office. But those limited efforts, while noble and important in the short term, are inadequate to address the problems if no systemic and structural changes are made.

That sounds difficult because it will be, and glib slogans can’t change that fact. A longstanding cliché of progressive politics -- organizers’ task is to “make it easy for people to do the right thing” -- is inadequate in these circumstances. Given the depth of the dysfunction, it will not be easy to do the right thing. It will, in fact, be very hard, and there’s no sense pretending otherwise. At this point in history, anything that is easy and can be achieved quickly is almost certainly insufficient and likely irrelevant in the long run. Attempting to persuade people that large-scale social change will come easily is not only insulting to their intelligence but is guaranteed to fail. If organizers can persuade people to join a movement based on promises of victories that won’t disrupt privileged lives -- victories that cannot be achieved -- the backlash is likely worse than the status quo.

There’s one simple reason that serious change cannot be easy: We are the first species in the history of the planet that is going to have to will itself to practice restraint across the board, especially in our use of energy. Like other carbon-based creatures, we evolved to pursue energy-rich carbon, not constrain ourselves. Going against that basic fact of nature will not be easy.
112 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
How Unchecked Capitalism Has Brought the World to the Brink of Apocalypse -- and What We Must Do Now (Original Post) xchrom Jul 2013 OP
rec... n/t handmade34 Jul 2013 #1
Let's cut to the chase.... it's time to redistribute the wealth. reformist2 Jul 2013 #2
Through... geckosfeet Jul 2013 #3
Breaking up monopolies ctsnowman Jul 2013 #6
it would be better to get off that merry-go-round BOG PERSON Jul 2013 #84
Can you give an example of a monopoly other than Major League Baseball and Amtrak? (nt) Nye Bevan Jul 2013 #108
Based on the framing of your question ctsnowman Jul 2013 #111
worker self-directed enterprises antigop Jul 2013 #15
Limit CEO pay. Any CEO or Management that gets paid more than.... Bonhomme Richard Jul 2013 #18
Also.. Oakenshield Jul 2013 #19
The elimination of capitalism as an economic system. Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #26
Profit in itself is not evil. Business needs income that at least equals expenses. geckosfeet Jul 2013 #32
Yes, it is with economies of scale. Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #39
Increasing the inheritance tax to prevent the creation of an aristocracy of wealth. (For example, HardTimes99 Jul 2013 #40
^ This ^ is essential. Bringing the oceans of non-productive wealth back into the Egalitarian Thug Jul 2013 #47
Who gets to decide who loses and who wins? badtoworse Jul 2013 #4
Well, gee, IDK; maybe we can start with the BILLIONaires? Too radical for ya? WinkyDink Jul 2013 #5
It's only the 1% who have ALL the wealth. Fuddnik Jul 2013 #10
No way. It wouldn't just stay at the 1% level. badtoworse Jul 2013 #13
There is no other possible entity that could do it. gtar100 Jul 2013 #22
"greatest tool of government is the power of taxation" BOG PERSON Jul 2013 #80
No its the barrell of a gun as Mao pointed out Duckwraps Jul 2013 #96
Should a single family have more money than the government has? reusrename Jul 2013 #34
That's a slippery slope fallacy. Starry Messenger Jul 2013 #51
Umm, the wealthy people lose some of their wealth, and it goes to the poor and middle class? reformist2 Jul 2013 #12
Instead of taxing labor, tax wealth. reusrename Jul 2013 #14
So you'd give the government the power to take your assets. badtoworse Jul 2013 #16
Don't know about you, amigo, but the govt. has ALREADY taken MY assets Demeter Jul 2013 #28
Sorry you're down on your luck, but not everyone is. badtoworse Jul 2013 #30
Well, aren't you special! Invulnerable, even! Protected by your government? Demeter Jul 2013 #35
I was speaking for classes people, not just myself. badtoworse Jul 2013 #36
But a Fascist State suits you? Demeter Jul 2013 #61
Does a Marxist state suit you? badtoworse Jul 2013 #91
Well exactly. It will come down to a choice between fascism and .... socialist_n_TN Jul 2013 #101
This message was self-deleted by its author BOG PERSON Jul 2013 #105
there's no such thing as a marxist state BOG PERSON Jul 2013 #106
Why not? It sure beats letting the thieves steal our homes. reusrename Jul 2013 #33
Yep. A Legal distinction between Wages and Income. Volaris Jul 2013 #20
That sounds right to me. reusrename Jul 2013 #60
That too. I'm of the opinion it should be whover is CEO of that company... Volaris Jul 2013 #109
it's being Decided and Redistributed now. nt xchrom Jul 2013 #24
Income yes, but not wealth. badtoworse Jul 2013 #94
Someone else's wealth? Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #27
So investors don't get to make any returns? badtoworse Jul 2013 #93
Oh horse poop. Same old ideas of 100- 159 yrs ago. They have been tried a don't work. Duckwraps Jul 2013 #97
Your sentence doesn't make sense. nt Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #99
Here, let me say it more Duckwraps Jul 2013 #100
Other than Spain ... and other isolated areas (where outside forces smashed that kind of society) .. Fantastic Anarchist Jul 2013 #103
An Estate Tax. snort Jul 2013 #7
Lots and lots of problems with estate taxes. Duckwraps Jul 2013 #44
Yeah, they prevent inherited wealth and formation of an aristocracy Demeter Jul 2013 #64
And they really hurt small farmers and small business owners. Duckwraps Jul 2013 #65
That is a right-wing "fantasy" nightmare Demeter Jul 2013 #68
True but that will not happen in our present political situation zeemike Jul 2013 #25
Probably a very bad idea if you want to combat ecosystem collapse NickB79 Jul 2013 #48
Human civilization is the ultimate corporation The2ndWheel Jul 2013 #50
And this is the real challenge of the 21st Century "liberal" NoOneMan Jul 2013 #54
Disposable wealth? Demeter Jul 2013 #66
Ok, then don't call it disposable wealth if that makes you happy NickB79 Jul 2013 #110
NickB79 you are absolutely correct. undergroundpanther Jul 2013 #82
That's an interesting outlook ... oldhippie Jul 2013 #90
1) Thats not really the crux of the article, 2) That alone will only exacerbate our biggest threats NoOneMan Jul 2013 #53
"We need everyone to constrain themselves" The2ndWheel Jul 2013 #56
Then write our obituary already NoOneMan Jul 2013 #57
Fearing not I'd become my enemy / In the instant that I preached Electric Monk Jul 2013 #67
Use the wealth to solve the nation's problems and planet's ills. Octafish Jul 2013 #104
K & R ctsnowman Jul 2013 #8
k/r marmar Jul 2013 #9
Kr postulater Jul 2013 #11
Ain't it the truth! kentuck Jul 2013 #17
But "you can never be too rich or too thin." mountain grammy Jul 2013 #21
Yeah, but, Howard hughes! TheJames Jul 2013 #112
K&R abelenkpe Jul 2013 #23
This message was self-deleted by its author Crow73 Jul 2013 #29
Get Rid of Republicans and Religious Scumbags Stainless Jul 2013 #31
How? Duckwraps Jul 2013 #43
Reeducation camps, prisons, or coffins? FrodosPet Jul 2013 #75
I'll go out on a limb and guess .... oldhippie Jul 2013 #92
You are right. Duckwraps Jul 2013 #98
Looks interesting... truebrit71 Jul 2013 #37
Yeah, I have a very fatalistic mindset these days. ananda Jul 2013 #38
Flowery and long winded olddots Jul 2013 #41
What if people don't want to do what you are suggesting? Duckwraps Jul 2013 #42
Someone is always forcing someone else The2ndWheel Jul 2013 #46
Yes, kill them, put them in camps, etc. Too bad Pol Pot is gone, he was good at it. Duckwraps Jul 2013 #63
America's been better at it The2ndWheel Jul 2013 #73
Yes we have been darn good Duckwraps Jul 2013 #76
We have things called laws, we make them. Starry Messenger Jul 2013 #52
Yep Duckwraps Jul 2013 #58
Minimum wage laws get made and enforced even if employers don't want them. Starry Messenger Jul 2013 #62
Yes and we pass laws all the time Duckwraps Jul 2013 #69
And when they don't obey them and they get caught, what happens Duckie? Starry Messenger Jul 2013 #70
As I said originally, we kill them or put them in camps. Duckwraps Jul 2013 #71
So you've been killed and put in camps when you ran red lights? Starry Messenger Jul 2013 #72
As you well know many here are not talking about petty laws & misdomeaners, Duckwraps Jul 2013 #74
Those are the kinds of laws you listed...I'm just going by your argument. Starry Messenger Jul 2013 #77
I refuse to beleive Duckwraps Jul 2013 #78
weird BOG PERSON Jul 2013 #85
Wouldn't "special" Duckwraps Jul 2013 #95
So we'll put you down for hating redwood trees. Starry Messenger Jul 2013 #87
I've never been killed running a red light, but others have. FrodosPet Jul 2013 #83
Um, he's talking about being executed by capital punishment. Starry Messenger Jul 2013 #86
I don't think anyone is arguing for executing people who run red lights FrodosPet Jul 2013 #88
I think you need to start at the top of this subthread and read down. Starry Messenger Jul 2013 #89
Lobby to change the law. Bribery. Lawyer up. FrodosPet Jul 2013 #81
They don't NoOneMan Jul 2013 #55
Corporations, stock markets, moondust Jul 2013 #45
Corporations are legally created monsters, but they can be declawed and defanged. reformist2 Jul 2013 #59
k+r Saviolo Jul 2013 #49
What to do now? "Check" capitalism, throw criminals in jail. Corruption Inc Jul 2013 #79
K&R nt Zorra Jul 2013 #102
DU Rec Tuesday Afternoon Jul 2013 #107

geckosfeet

(9,644 posts)
3. Through...
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 07:55 AM
Jul 2013

  • Equitable taxation policy including some kind of progressive schedule for capital gains

  • Universally available health care, education and social security (disability and retirement pension)



Additional ideas welcome....

Bonhomme Richard

(9,001 posts)
18. Limit CEO pay. Any CEO or Management that gets paid more than....
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 09:14 AM
Jul 2013

80X (I am being generous since that is about twice what the ratio is in rest of the world) the lowest paid worker will be taxed a flat 80% on the difference.
If the lowest worker earns 16K/year then the CEO can legitimately make about 1.3 Million.

Oakenshield

(614 posts)
19. Also..
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 09:15 AM
Jul 2013

Nationalize the banks. Nationalize our natural resources like water and fossil fuels. So sick and tired of these crooks controlling our politics.

Fantastic Anarchist

(7,309 posts)
26. The elimination of capitalism as an economic system.
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 09:58 AM
Jul 2013

We really need to say what we mean and say it clearly. We need to eliminate a for-profit economic system. We need full democracy in both the economic and political spheres. I could go on and on, but that's just a start.

geckosfeet

(9,644 posts)
32. Profit in itself is not evil. Business needs income that at least equals expenses.
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 10:29 AM
Jul 2013

Part of the income over and above expenses goes to pay employees. The rest can be considered profit. Then the question becomes who decides who gets it or how it is used.

Fantastic Anarchist

(7,309 posts)
39. Yes, it is with economies of scale.
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 11:11 AM
Jul 2013

With economies of scale, the most ecologically and economically equitable solution are federated worker-owned enterprises based on free association. Now, with regard to small businesses, I have no problem with profits as long as they are in line with fair labor practices.

 

HardTimes99

(2,049 posts)
40. Increasing the inheritance tax to prevent the creation of an aristocracy of wealth. (For example,
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 11:12 AM
Jul 2013

the six heirs to the WalMart family fortune control as much wealth between them as the bottom 30 million Americans. I don't hear any Dems talking about that little fact currently.)

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
47. ^ This ^ is essential. Bringing the oceans of non-productive wealth back into the
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 12:24 PM
Jul 2013

overall economy will make the difference.

 

badtoworse

(5,957 posts)
4. Who gets to decide who loses and who wins?
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 08:17 AM
Jul 2013

How would you structure such a redistribution? This always sounds great as long as it's someone else's wealth that get's redistributed.

Fuddnik

(8,846 posts)
10. It's only the 1% who have ALL the wealth.
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 08:35 AM
Jul 2013

So, it's not that hard to figure out who has to pay. They're the only ones with any means to pay any more.

How about setting a maximum wage? Say a progressive tax code up to $5 or $10 million annually. More than enough to enjoy the fruits of creativity, leadership, and creativity. And enough for all the goodies you need for a lavish lifestyle.

Above that, a punitive tax rate close to 100%. And set a cumulative wealth tax. Say 5 times the annual maximum. You wouldn't see hundreds of millions or billions of dollars, owned by a couple of families, just sitting in offshore accounts gathering dust and interest, but actually moving through the economy, creating livable wage jobs, and more.

 

badtoworse

(5,957 posts)
13. No way. It wouldn't just stay at the 1% level.
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 08:48 AM
Jul 2013

When their wealth was gone, the target would become the 5%. Once, you've established that it's OK to set a limit on what you can earn and what you can own, where that limit is becomes arbitrary. There is no way I would trust government with that much power.

gtar100

(4,192 posts)
22. There is no other possible entity that could do it.
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 09:36 AM
Jul 2013

What other choice than government do we have? Corporations? Religions? Anarchy? "Government" is nothing more than our collective effort to organize a society. That the controls are misused and abused by some people does not change its basic mission. Our problem with government isn't its existence. Our problem is the abuse of it. So you're right to distrust it but that distrust could be better focused on the entities that corrupt it and turn a functioning democracy on its head. The Constitution of the US did a good job of curtailing the abuses of religion and aristocracies. But it does not protect us well from the abuses of the merchant classes... today simply referred to as business.

The greatest tool of government is the power of taxation. When that is weakened, we get the results we see today of businesses taking advantages not available 30 to 50 years ago. Our collective morality is codified in our tax laws. It's just a tool that can be used for good or ill, for greater prosperity overall or special interests only.

I like the idea of a progressive tax code that has an upper limit nearing 100% because it does produce a more level playing field. And if someone or some group wants to control larger sums than the top rate, well they can take advantage of deductible expenses such as research and development. As it stands now, our tax code does little to motivate wealthy people to circulate the money they control.

BOG PERSON

(2,916 posts)
80. "greatest tool of government is the power of taxation"
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 03:43 PM
Jul 2013

actually the greatest tool of government is the power BEHIND the power of taxation

 

reusrename

(1,716 posts)
34. Should a single family have more money than the government has?
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 10:39 AM
Jul 2013

I don't think it would make any sense to only tax the 1%.

What would be the point of that?

Everyone should either be taxed the same or there could be some progressive structure.

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
51. That's a slippery slope fallacy.
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 12:37 PM
Jul 2013

There are something like 14 people who control all of the top-end wealth in this country. What is the endgame for them, really? Trillions hoarded in a state of capital strike going on years now. They didn't "earn" that, it's money that was created by the work of all the people in their companies.

And your fears of a "Marxist" state are silly. Marx predicted what is going on *now* in this country, lol.

reformist2

(9,841 posts)
12. Umm, the wealthy people lose some of their wealth, and it goes to the poor and middle class?
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 08:46 AM
Jul 2013

This isn't rocket science. We already do this in a limited, sporadic way. All I'm suggesting is that we ramp up existing support programs (e.g., welfare, unemployment) and make them permanent. Basically, provide everyone with a minimum income, funded by a tax on wealth over a certain amount (e.g., $10 mil.)

 

reusrename

(1,716 posts)
14. Instead of taxing labor, tax wealth.
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 08:49 AM
Jul 2013

Seems simple enough.

Folks would self-report their assets.

Punitive rates on undeclared property that someone wants to transfer.

Not much to it.

 

badtoworse

(5,957 posts)
16. So you'd give the government the power to take your assets.
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 09:10 AM
Jul 2013

How would you control how much you're left with? See Post 13.

 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
28. Don't know about you, amigo, but the govt. has ALREADY taken MY assets
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 10:06 AM
Jul 2013

and I speak for at least 40% of the population in this country, alone.

No jobs, no income, houses foreclosed, IRAs destroyed by bad policy and worse fraud....

Small businesses failing right and left, and fraud fraud fraud...pensions and healthcare cancelled for retirees and job holders alike...

and now, civil rights are gone, too. Ain't nothing left to take from the 99%.

 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
35. Well, aren't you special! Invulnerable, even! Protected by your government?
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 10:49 AM
Jul 2013

“First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—
and there was no one left to speak out for me.”

― Martin Niemöller


I wouldn't bet on it, amigo. You are next.
 

badtoworse

(5,957 posts)
36. I was speaking for classes people, not just myself.
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 11:01 AM
Jul 2013

The ideas I see being tossed around could easily lead to Marxism. I don't want a Marxist state.

socialist_n_TN

(11,481 posts)
101. Well exactly. It will come down to a choice between fascism and ....
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 07:57 PM
Jul 2013

SOME form of Marxism (because Marx and Engels are the ones who have ALWAYS had a handle on capitalism-even the CAPITALISTS use Marxism, they just don't admit it). And everybody who studies history knows that some people will choose fascism over any form of socialism. Glad to know who's ultimately on the side of the fascists.

Response to badtoworse (Reply #91)

BOG PERSON

(2,916 posts)
106. there's no such thing as a marxist state
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 09:34 PM
Jul 2013

perhaps you have it confused with the democratic dictatorship of the proletariat?

 

reusrename

(1,716 posts)
33. Why not? It sure beats letting the thieves steal our homes.
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 10:35 AM
Jul 2013

What makes you believe it's ok to tax wages? Don't the same complaints remain true?

Volaris

(10,275 posts)
20. Yep. A Legal distinction between Wages and Income.
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 09:16 AM
Jul 2013

A Federal Mininum wage, a federal MAXIMUM WAGE, and a Tax CURVE instead of Tax BRACKETS. The whole damn Revenue Code for this Nation should fit on 3 pages, your 10-year old should be able prepare your taxes if you don't own a business, and any behavior that does NOT fall within those three pages is illegal, and you fucking go to prison. Simple.

 

reusrename

(1,716 posts)
60. That sounds right to me.
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 01:59 PM
Jul 2013

Regulate Wall Street like the FAA. Everyone working in the industry must be licensed and must certify every financial transaction. There needs to be a head on a plate when things go sideways.

Volaris

(10,275 posts)
109. That too. I'm of the opinion it should be whover is CEO of that company...
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 11:20 PM
Jul 2013

that person is, after all, the person who gets paid staggering sums of money because, ostensibly, they are the person who is supposed to know what the hell is going on, everywhere, at all times. I say, make them EARN IT.

Fantastic Anarchist

(7,309 posts)
27. Someone else's wealth?
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 10:01 AM
Jul 2013

Did they acquire that wealth entirely on their own? If not, it belongs to everyone who contributed to the infrastructure that made that wealth possible.

I'm sorry, but it's the capitalist that are the takers. Labor are the makers. You don't have wealth without Labor (yes, I capitalize it).

 

badtoworse

(5,957 posts)
93. So investors don't get to make any returns?
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 06:27 PM
Jul 2013

Does labor chip in to get the plant, store or other business infrastructure built? How much money does labor put at risk in developing a business? Without capital, labor wouldn't have jobs.

 

Duckwraps

(206 posts)
100. Here, let me say it more
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 07:36 PM
Jul 2013

succinctly. Those ideas are BS.

They have been tried and tried again. They have failed and failed again and only resulted in death and misery for millions and millions.

Fantastic Anarchist

(7,309 posts)
103. Other than Spain ... and other isolated areas (where outside forces smashed that kind of society) ..
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 08:10 PM
Jul 2013

... where and when have these ideas "failed and failed again" and "only resulted in death and misery for millions and millions?"

Also, the Paris Commune, Freetown Christiania, Free Territory in Ukraine, Revolutionary Catalonia, Anarchist Aragon, The Zapatistas? These have worked or continue to work to this day. The rest were smashed by outside forces (mostly Bolshevik and Fascist forces as with the case with Spain and Ukraine).

 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
64. Yeah, they prevent inherited wealth and formation of an aristocracy
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 02:02 PM
Jul 2013

and worked pretty well until recently, when they were canned by the bought-and-paid-for govt. of the 1%, by the 1%, for the 1%.

 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
68. That is a right-wing "fantasy" nightmare
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 02:14 PM
Jul 2013

and periodically debunked on this website and others. No, inheritance taxes do not affect small farmers and small business owners. Never have, never will.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
25. True but that will not happen in our present political situation
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 09:56 AM
Jul 2013

And I see no change in that coming soon...the PTB own the system and will never give it up willingly.
The answer is to build a new system from the ground up that replaces the old...a grass roots one...IMO.

NickB79

(19,277 posts)
48. Probably a very bad idea if you want to combat ecosystem collapse
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 12:27 PM
Jul 2013

Redistributing the wealth would be a HUMANITARIAN success, but what would the results of this be to the planet's ability to support life as we know it? Probably an increase in consumption as people find themselves with more disposable wealth. We're currently seeing what happens when wealth is redistributed from the US and Europe to Asia: the economies of China and India boom, millions are lifted from poverty to the middle class, and consumption explodes. More demand for electricity, more demand for cars, more meat, more housing, etc. The lives of the people improve; the pressures on the environment mount. And ever-increasing global levels of consumption are what drive the current destruction of the environment.

From a strictly environmental viewpoint, it might be best to simply destroy the wealth instead, and accept the consequences, as horrible as that sounds.

I know, this runs counter to the popular idea that we could create some type of perfect humanitarian/ecological Utopia if only we were more humane and intelligent about how we went about our lives. However, the horrors of uncontrolled climate change make this a scenario we must consider, no matter how repugnant it may be.

The2ndWheel

(7,947 posts)
50. Human civilization is the ultimate corporation
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 12:35 PM
Jul 2013

In terms of privatizing profits and socializing costs. It's a resource hoarding enterprise.

 

NoOneMan

(4,795 posts)
54. And this is the real challenge of the 21st Century "liberal"
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 01:15 PM
Jul 2013

How do you balance such egalitarian, progressive ideals against their environmentally devastating manifestations?

I personally feel progressiveness is only a reaction to the failures of a production-centered civilization that exploits everything from the environment to the people. Maybe it isn't so important to "tune" the status quo and make earth raping more friendly to us earth-rapers, but rather cease the earth raping in its entirety (but I cannot claim that alone will magically manifest into a "better" life for the people of the word). But we are in between a rock and a hard place here with extinction on the brink. Until we can figure out how to survive, why bother with the other platform planks of the last century?

Destroying wealth is something we have to most certainly think about. Or even, just redefining what we all consider wealth and how to create it. How many feel our healthy forests contribute to our wealth?

 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
66. Disposable wealth?
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 02:10 PM
Jul 2013

Surely you jest.

The only people with disposable wealth are starving and denying health care, houslng and jobs to the rest.

That is paper wealth, by the way....useless, unproductive piles of other people's money, stolen from them by the greedy Capitalists. Those piles of money are deflating at an enormous rate, as the rest of the world goes without, because when money piles up like that, the economy starves and so do the working class. Our robber government keeps trying to pump up paper assets, to keep the 1% happy. It isn't working, by the way. The assets don't stay pumped, and the greedy will NEVER be satisfied. So, let's take care of the working class, and let the rich worry about their own business without government support.

Money is like manure, it needs to be spread around to do anybody any good. Otherwise, it produces vermin and disease, stinks and pollutes.

NickB79

(19,277 posts)
110. Ok, then don't call it disposable wealth if that makes you happy
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 11:57 PM
Jul 2013

It doesn't change the cold facts of the matter.

The only people with disposable wealth are starving and denying health care, houslng and jobs to the rest.


And when the couple billion people on this planet who live in abject poverty are given money to buy more food, get health care and better housing, where do the resources to satisfy this demand come from? Like I said, we can watch this play out in places like China and India as we speak.

Like I said, redistributing the wealth would be a HUMANITARIAN success. It would probably be an ENVIRONMENTAL disaster unless we completely re-interpreted what it means to be successful and wealthy in our society. So long as we hold to the idea that wealth can be measured by material possessions, more land and resources, a flashy car, a big house, etc, we're screwed. And unfortunately, this seems to be an instinctual, possibly even genetic, predisposition for the vast majority of humanity regardless of race or culture.

undergroundpanther

(11,925 posts)
82. NickB79 you are absolutely correct.
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 03:48 PM
Jul 2013

But the problem is people do not want to be subjected by nature,for nature is cruel and hungry and bloody too.For me,I see no solution to escape the way this world is,the empire is cruel ,capitalism is cruel,nature is cruel,trauma is what life on earth seems be.
you get born,you eat life to live and die anyway.This world is a prison,and we are trapped here with sociopaths that hurt and exploit life on top of nature's way of hurting and exploiting life.
Same shit different mechanism. It's all painful.

 

oldhippie

(3,249 posts)
90. That's an interesting outlook ...
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 05:34 PM
Jul 2013
you get born,you eat life to live and die anyway.This world is a prison,and we are trapped here with sociopaths that hurt and exploit life on top of nature's way of hurting and exploiting life.
Same shit different mechanism. It's all painful.


I think I'll go have a drink.
 

NoOneMan

(4,795 posts)
53. 1) Thats not really the crux of the article, 2) That alone will only exacerbate our biggest threats
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 01:08 PM
Jul 2013

Equalizing the ability to command energy will lead another 7 billion people to command more energy and release more emissions, and thereby, accelerate the aggregate velocity of energy across the globe. No, we don't need everyone to be able to drive a nice car or have a Trump jet. We don't need everyone to have a 10000 SQFT mansion. We need everyone to constrain themselves to more moderate housing and a lower overall footprint.

Enhancing everyone's ability to command energy (and "wealth" is merely the ability to command energy) is not exactly what we need when facing the 6th extinction. We need to reorganize our entire civilization and rethink our economic model.

The2ndWheel

(7,947 posts)
56. "We need everyone to constrain themselves"
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 01:41 PM
Jul 2013
http://www.context.org/iclib/ic07/schmoklr/

"Imagine a group of tribes living within reach of one another. If all choose the way of peace, then all may live in peace. But what if all but one choose peace, and that one is ambitious for expansion and conquest? What can happen to the others when confronted by an ambitious and potent neighbor? Perhaps one tribe is attacked and defeated, its people destroyed and its lands seized for the use of the victors. Another is defeated, but this one is not exterminated; rather, it is subjugated and transformed to serve the conqueror. A third seeking to avoid such disaster flees from the area into some inaccessible (and undesirable) place, and its former homeland becomes part of the growing empire of the power-seeking tribe. Let us suppose that others observing these developments decide to defend themselves in order to preserve themselves and their autonomy. But the irony is that successful defense against a power-maximizing aggressor requires a society to become more like the society that threatens it. Power can be stopped only by power, and if the threatening society has discovered ways to magnify its power through innovations in organization or technology (or whatever), the defensive society will have to transform itself into something more like its foe in order to resist the external force."
 

NoOneMan

(4,795 posts)
57. Then write our obituary already
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 01:47 PM
Jul 2013

Unfortunately, apparently survival seems to demand that everyone agrees to work together to destroy anyone that consumes too much.

Hey, its either that or death for everyone. Take your pick.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
104. Use the wealth to solve the nation's problems and planet's ills.
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 08:12 PM
Jul 2013

There's plenty of money hidden offshore by the billionaire and multi-millionaires.



Tax Offshore Wealth Sitting In First World Banks

James S. Henry
07.01.10, 09:00 AM EDT
Forbes Magazine dated July 19, 2010

Let's tax offshore privstr wealth.

How can we get the world's wealthiest scoundrels--arms dealers, dictators, drug barons, tax evaders--to help us pay for the soaring costs of deficits, disaster relief, climate change and development? Simple: Levy a modest withholding tax on untaxed private offshore loot.

Many aboveground economies around the world are struggling, but the economic underground is booming. By my estimate, there is $15 trillion to $20 trillion in private wealth sitting offshore in bank accounts, brokerage accounts and hedge fund portfolios, completely untaxed.

Much offshore wealth derives from capital flight and the proceeds of past and present tax evasion. Another source is crime. At least a third comes from developing countries--more than their outstanding net foreign debt.

This wealth is concentrated. Nearly half of it is owned by 91,000 people--0.001% of the world's population. Ninety-five percent is owned by the planet's wealthiest 10 million people.

Let's tax it. The pile of offshore anonymous loot is now large enough so that even a very modest 0.5% wealth tax would yield at least $75 billion a year.

SNIP...

Is it feasible? Yes. The majority of offshore wealth is managed by 50 banks. As of September 2009 these banks accounted for $10.8 trillion of offshore assets--72% of the industry's total. The busiest 10 of them manage 40%.

CONTINUED....

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2010/0719/opinions-taxation-tax-havens-banking-on-my-mind.html



Either they cooperate or the proper, em, authorities take it all.

mountain grammy

(26,661 posts)
21. But "you can never be too rich or too thin."
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 09:31 AM
Jul 2013

We've had it pounded into our heads all our lives. Guess that was to get us ready for the times when just a few have everything and everyone else is starving..

Response to xchrom (Original post)

Stainless

(718 posts)
31. Get Rid of Republicans and Religious Scumbags
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 10:27 AM
Jul 2013

I could make a list of names, but we all know who they are.

FrodosPet

(5,169 posts)
75. Reeducation camps, prisons, or coffins?
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 02:58 PM
Jul 2013

Obviously coffins would seem to be the cheapest and quickest method, but you would need a large number of people willing to kill in cold blood. Since those tend to be RWers, that might backfire. Not to mention, I really don't think you are going to get many progressives supporting the idea that killing murderers is bad, but killing people for political ideas is OK.

Concentration camps and prisons are somewhat more humane, but then it is going to take a lot of resources to lock up even 10% of the Republicans and Religious Scumbags. It would put a lot of people to work. But it would be putting many of them to work as authoritarian asshole prison guards.

We could take all their stuff away and use it to lift people out of poverty, but then you would just be shifting the poverty to a new group of people. Or maybe not. The people being lifted out of poverty need to be taught how to utilize and maintain the resources given to them so they can prevent themselves from slipping back into it and the wealth going back to the people who originally had it.

So what are your ideas for getting rid of them in a humane, economically responsible way?

 

oldhippie

(3,249 posts)
92. I'll go out on a limb and guess ....
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 05:42 PM
Jul 2013

.... you won't get an answer to that question.

So what are your ideas for getting rid of them in a humane, economically responsible way?
 

Duckwraps

(206 posts)
98. You are right.
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 07:01 PM
Jul 2013

The benevolent fascist here just won't admitt their true intents and few are fooled by them. They simply want to engineer another dictatoral state in which they can rule the unwashed and uneducated. They will know what is best for us underlings.

ananda

(28,888 posts)
38. Yeah, I have a very fatalistic mindset these days.
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 11:09 AM
Jul 2013

What corporations are doing to this world and the life in it seems
so drastic, I sometimes think that humankind will go extinct long
before the sun runs out.

 

Duckwraps

(206 posts)
42. What if people don't want to do what you are suggesting?
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 11:57 AM
Jul 2013

Should we force them to do it and if so, how?

The2ndWheel

(7,947 posts)
46. Someone is always forcing someone else
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 12:13 PM
Jul 2013

Look through history. People haven't wanted to do what other people were suggesting all the time. They forced them to do it though, if they needed to. Usually by..force, of some kind.

The2ndWheel

(7,947 posts)
73. America's been better at it
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 02:45 PM
Jul 2013

There wouldn't be an America, or any long lasting power of some kind, without the killing.

 

Duckwraps

(206 posts)
76. Yes we have been darn good
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 02:59 PM
Jul 2013

at it, witness the Native Americams. That what scsres me. We need to tread lightly here.

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
62. Minimum wage laws get made and enforced even if employers don't want them.
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 02:01 PM
Jul 2013

It really is, just that simple. We can craft and pass laws making people do things they don't want to. Happens all the time. Sorry you somehow missed this in your world.

 

Duckwraps

(206 posts)
69. Yes and we pass laws all the time
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 02:21 PM
Jul 2013

that people don't obey, pot laws, murder, rape, speed limits, tax laws gun laws, etc

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
70. And when they don't obey them and they get caught, what happens Duckie?
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 02:24 PM
Jul 2013

What do you do when you are in a situation and you want to do something not allowed by law?

 

Duckwraps

(206 posts)
71. As I said originally, we kill them or put them in camps.
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 02:37 PM
Jul 2013

I would rebel against the tyranny I sense from some in this thread, Starry.

 

Duckwraps

(206 posts)
74. As you well know many here are not talking about petty laws & misdomeaners,
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 02:56 PM
Jul 2013

but a drastic and perhaps tyrannical change that would result in major dislocations. I do not think many would stand still for that.

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
77. Those are the kinds of laws you listed...I'm just going by your argument.
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 03:12 PM
Jul 2013

What exact proposal in the OP do you see as "tyrannical change"? Saving the redwoods that scary to you?

 

Duckwraps

(206 posts)
78. I refuse to beleive
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 03:36 PM
Jul 2013

that the mindset of some of the people posting in this thread would not result in a tyrannical government in order to insure their "benevolent," utopian ideas are carried out. That I will never tolerate so they will have to get rid of me and others like me. I don't think anyone can argue that it has not happened in the past.

Let me put it another way some of the people posting in this thread and their seemingly benevolent ideas scare the hell out of me. Like some folks seem to be scared of benevolent people carrying guns.

FrodosPet

(5,169 posts)
83. I've never been killed running a red light, but others have.
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 03:49 PM
Jul 2013

Personally, I try to avoid running red lights, because I don't want to get killed, or get someone else killed, in a T-bone crash. Avoiding tickets is also important, but secondary to safety. And sometimes you have an idiot in a hurry on your back bumper that to properly stop means a crash.

Seven Billion Shades of Gray.

FrodosPet

(5,169 posts)
88. I don't think anyone is arguing for executing people who run red lights
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 04:51 PM
Jul 2013

But some people seem to support execution or imprisonment for political views.

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
89. I think you need to start at the top of this subthread and read down.
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 04:56 PM
Jul 2013

I'm not the one with problematic views on this argument.

FrodosPet

(5,169 posts)
81. Lobby to change the law. Bribery. Lawyer up.
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 03:43 PM
Jul 2013

Go to jail, hope you are released early because of prison overcrowding. Same as it ever was.

 

NoOneMan

(4,795 posts)
55. They don't
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 01:22 PM
Jul 2013

And no one is going to force anyone to do anything. Those who can command the most energy are the ones who force, and they continualyl force the economy to grow and deliver more and more to them. So in that sense, its game over. Even if enough people knew what is at stake, we can't collectively do much about it before climate change starves off billions of us in the next 50 years.

moondust

(20,017 posts)
45. Corporations, stock markets,
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 12:10 PM
Jul 2013

depersonalized ownership, and limited liability are a problem. This scheme of things will naturally create a predator class of managers and investors that control capital with the sole aim of enriching themselves--often by screwing everybody else and the environment.

It's kind of hard to believe that governments ever allowed this undemocratic and socially unjust scheme to develop in the first place. They apparently lacked the vision to see the predation it would surely promote.

How to fix it? For one thing, I suppose you'd have to close down the stock markets, which would seem to remove the raison d'etre for the corporate model, but that seems unlikely to happen at this late stage. I think Occupy Wall Street had the right idea but was up against overwhelming odds.

reformist2

(9,841 posts)
59. Corporations are legally created monsters, but they can be declawed and defanged.
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 01:59 PM
Jul 2013

Corporations get much of their reputation as rapacious and exploitative monsters from individuals willing to do all manner of outrageous things in the name of the corporation because they have no fear of ever being held personally accountable. Take that protection away from the executives who run the corporation, and most of them will shape up pretty quickly, I would think.

Saviolo

(3,283 posts)
49. k+r
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 12:29 PM
Jul 2013


This is probably the biggest issue in the entire world right now. Huge multinational corporations and banks, oil companies and enormous organizations controlling massive reserves of money and moving them through channels that never even affect anyone below, but still make them immense, practically unimaginable profits.

It's too bad that LIBOR was too complex to get much traction on the news, because it was a huge scandal. Banks moving around hundreds of millions of dollars in order to make hundreds of millions of dollars more in profit. Unimaginably wealthy individuals that control immense reserves of cash in offshore accounts or investments that earn them interest and dividends that exceed the wages of hundreds of "regular people" put together.

And then, in the enormous shadow of that tiny percentage of humans are the masses who range from utter poverty to living comfortably. The average is somewhere around living paycheque to paycheque, praying that nothing goes wrong. No robberies, no illnesses, no layoffs, just surviving on the edge. The wealthy elite can't even picture this life. To them, if you're on the outs, just start your own business. Can't afford it? Just redeem some of your investments? No investments? Just borrow from your parents.

Something's going to give, and sadly, it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better.
 

Corruption Inc

(1,568 posts)
79. What to do now? "Check" capitalism, throw criminals in jail.
Wed Jul 10, 2013, 03:37 PM
Jul 2013

The social change is occurring anyway as people stop buying propaganda, poisonous foods, slave labor goods and start living their lives outside of the false D.C. left/right paradigm.

The only way any change will occur in politics is to treat politicians like the criminals they are.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»How Unchecked Capitalism ...