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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsEU countries to Bolivia: We did not delay, deny, cancel your flight over our territories
** Getting tired repeating myself so here's the word from the EU mouths
** This was stated at a special session of the OAS today at the UN - Organization of American States
Representatives from Italy and Spain denied they closed their airspace and France called it a "technical" error based on false information and denied that it was a "political decision."
Sebastiano Fulci, a representative from Italy, said accusations against his country were unfair and false. He said the authorization to fly over Italian territory was canceled automatically under normal procedures after, not before, the president's plane was on the ground in Vienna.
"Italy had absolutely nothing to do with hindering the flight of President Evo Morales," Fulci said. "It never withdrew any authorization to fly over its territory."
Jorge Hevia, a representative from Spain, said his country did not delay, deny or cancel any authorization for Morales to fly over its territory on his way home from Moscow.
"Quite the opposite. At the request of Bolivia, the authorization was broadened and included authority for a stop at the Canary Islands," Hevia said in a reference to the Spanish archipelago. "At no time did we hinder the president's travel."
http://www.wral.com/bolivia-asks-oas-to-condemn-morales-plane-row/12642989/
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)answers. Unfortunately, I think there will be a lot of conflicting answers.
gee-whiz , your hero Evo is disclosed as a LIAR . but but but ...... To you , everyone else is lying , of course . Sometimes its hard to face the truth about a paper tiger , I know .
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)wanted to condition Morales' overflight and refueling stop in the Canary Islands on being allowed to search Morales' plane. That would have been a violation of diplomatic conventions that are very well established and have been for many, many years.
That was the problem. Morales did not want to allow a foreign country to search his plane. Morales is quite right on that issue. He enjoyed diplomatic immunity for his plane and its contents.
We would not want some country insisting on searching Obama's plane in exchange for permitting refueling or overflight.
This was a diplomatic insult to the country of Bolivia and not just to Morales as an individual.
The Interior Minister of Austria stated, according to Die Presse, a reputable Austrian newspaper, that Ambassador Eacho from the US told her that Snowden was aboard Morales' plane.
These stories are true. Morales would have nothing to gain by making the up. Another Austrian newspaper, Der Standard, printed a lot of pictures of Morales and his staff, etc. while waiting in the Austrian airport. Morales looked relaxed and cool. He always does, but his minister with him looked furious. This was a diplomatic scandal and rightfully so.
If our government is not doing anything wrong, why is it trying so hard to hide what it is doing?
flamingdem
(39,333 posts)This week simply due to the Bolivian plane incident two major meetings were called.
The OAS had to convoke a special emergency session with the US Canada and all EU countries involved participating
What's next!
Morales may get what he wants, a condemnation, but from here it's face saving.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)reusrename
(1,716 posts)They detained his flight because the devil made them, and Snowden is really Satan.
Isn't that what you're trying to say?
MADem
(135,425 posts)He lacks an essential sense of timing--this thing is pretty much played out, and he's beating a dead horse.
flamingdem
(39,333 posts)but boy he's making people jump on planes -- first to the UNASUR meeting and now the OAS special session.
For that reason I predict they will concoct a face saving resolution to end this tomorrow.
They won't make him look bad, but the Europeans won't give him apologies either.
I'm trying to think of the word that describes this en espanol
Porqueria isn't right.
Una locura maybe, but there are better words.
MADem
(135,425 posts)flamingdem
(39,333 posts)Just a bit, so much blah blah. En espanol which I get the impression you speak since you nailed the right term! He really did get support. I thought that there would be a vote but it was already decided that it would pass, the discussion was a formality.
MADem
(135,425 posts)I skipped through it and it's the same florid whining, over and over again. 25 minutes was more than enough! I couldn't take any more~!
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)were very angry. This was a terrible insult to all South American leaders.
We have given asylum to so many South Americans who were wanted, sometimes for killings, in their countries. We certainly should not be complaining if some other country wants to give asylum to someone that we want to arrest for a nonviolent crime.
This does not look good for the US. Makes us look like we think we have the moral high ground.
If there is any truth at all in what Snowden has said about our surveillance program, its breadth, its lack of focus, we have no moral high ground left at all.
This is a low point in our history. I thought we could not get any lower than Iraq.
People expect these kinds of violations of human rights in countries like Russia, Chechnya, Saudia Arabia and China, etc. But we are supposed to be better than this.
I am so disappointed in my country.
Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts)It seems to me he wants to appear on "Bolivians Have Talent", the new hit sensation sweeping the nation.
Maybe he'll do the "Gangnam-style" dance.
flamingdem
(39,333 posts)Bolivia does need it's moment in the sun.
This is better than inviting the nba.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Joining the great and vast lexicon of other narcissists who conveniently also don't agree with you.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Right?
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)... a story this big, this consequential, needs a dramatis personae of dramatic people. So lets offer Snowden a brief respite from the spotlight, pretend his motives are either pure or of little consequence, and instead turn our gaze toward those grandstanding politicians and activists demanding that our hero be left alone and all attention refocused on them.
After a few weeks of hypocritical outrage and bluster from Ecuador, Cuba, and every other recent recipient of Venezuelan largesse, the media gaggle has shifted to the blustering and outraged Bolivians. According to the Bolivian government, President Evo Moraless plane, traveling from Moscow to La Paz, was diverted to Austria after rumors percolated that Snowden was on board. He wasnt. Morales was said to have been humiliated by the unplanned stopover, the victim of yet another yanqui affront to Latin American sovereignty.
Indeed, the wonderful benefit of being a small, Hugo Chávezinfluenced Latin American country is that employing measured language of diplomacy pays fewer dividends than unrestrained populist rage, something that one doesnt frequently hear from the Obama administration. As Chávez well understoodhaving learned it from Fidel Castroblame for any problem or self-inflicted disaster is best transferred to the malevolent agents of Washington imperialism.
As the plane drama unfolded, Bolivian Vice President Álvaro García Linera bellowed that Morales had been kidnapped by imperialism in an act of imperial arrogance. Upon returning to a heros welcome in La Paz, Morales also blamed North American imperialism for the flight rerouting. Ecuadoran President Rafael Correa tweeted that either we graduated from being colonies, or we must claim our independence, sovereignty, and dignity. Argentinian President Cristina Kirchner blamed the vestiges of colonialism, and live-tweeted her attempt at diplomacy with Austria (no grandstanding in that). Not one to be outdone, Venezuelan Foreign Minister Elías Jaua called the incident totalitarian and fascist.
A bit disproportionate, sure, but a clever way of staying relevant for a group of nations suddenly bereft of their charismatic leaderand stuck with his incompetent, unpopular, and charisma-deprived successor, Nicolas Maduro. But was anyone in the media, those spouting off on Twitter, attempting to verify the Bolivian story? After hours of assured reporting on the subject, fed to the media by Moraless allies, the picture of imperialismo estadounidense became slightly cloudy. Much of the original narrative didnt make sense (The Atlantic parsed the available information, concluding that the tale of the re-routed Bolivian presidents plane is falling apart). The story was complicated by a few important details: Moraless plane didnt leave from the airport housing Snowden but one on the other side of Moscow. There is also the emergence of an audio recording of the Bolivian pilot telling an air-traffic controller that we need to land because we cannot get a correct indication of the fuel indicationwe need to land.
Don't cry for me, Bolivia...or Venezuela...or Argentina!
flamingdem
(39,333 posts)kidnapped by imperialism
There are lines in this that should go down in pop political history.
At the end of this we'll have a book!
okaawhatever
(9,469 posts)their sources aren't as credible.
flamingdem
(39,333 posts)issues. Everything about this story has many layers of intrique. We still don't know how it will turn out, but having the facts more or less make it even more interesting.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)- Pilot reports technical issues while plane is over Austria. Listen to the audio.
- Plane turns around and lands at the airport in Vienna. It did NOT circle Vienna. See the flight map.
- Austrian airport officials board plane which is standard procedure, especially when a plane makes an unscheduled stop DUE TO TECHNICAL ISSUES. They DID NOT conduct a full search of the plane.
- At no point were they looking for Snowden.
- Morales takes buddy buddy pictures with the Austrian President and they're smiling and laughing away. I got pics
- Plane leaves for Bolivia
It's utterly amazing how people bought the bullshit hook, line and sinker. My guess is that Western European countries just wanted to ignore it and hope it will go away, but leaders of certain South American countries were flogging it to death.
Morales invented this for domestic consumption and so did other leaders. Morales is the same guy who said the US poisoned Chavez. So many people got taken for a ride. It's hilarious!!!
flamingdem
(39,333 posts)But the USA and Canada said with objections. Morales had also asked for an apology, but no way Jose on that, the countries wouldn't do that except France as a formality.
There was an issue of a right wing Spanish ambassador in Vienna who showed up and tried to insert himself into the fray. That's where you have to wonder about the initial rumors that started this chaos.
Morales is now world famous however, we gotta give him mucho credito!
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)When he landed in Bolivia, they showered him with flowers.
This whole thing is just hilarious.
flamingdem
(39,333 posts)against the whole world basically.
adelante Evooooooo!
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Once again. Here goes what happened in Vienna from the mouth of the Interior Minister in Austria. She is a member of the OVP, the conservative party there and has no reason to lie or exaggerate.
The Falcon 900 should never have flown over Austria. But then the pilot supposedly reported problems with the gas gauge and requested permission to land in Vienna's Schwechat airport. On board the plane which was coming from Moskow and on which was written, "multinational state of Bolivia": President Evo Morales.
It landed around 11 P.M. Soon thereafter, the Vienna foreign ministry received an urgent call. On the other end of the line: US Ambassador William Eacho. As Die Presse discovered, he claimed with great certainty that Edward Snowden, the person sought by the US for having uncovered the most recent surveillance scandal was on board (the plane). Eacho referred to a diplomatic note in which the USA requested the extradition of Snowden.
Die Falcon 900 hätte Österreich nur überfliegen sollen. Doch dann meldeten die Piloten angeblich Probleme mit der Treibstoffanzeige und baten um Landeerlaubnis in Wien-Schwechat. An Bord der aus Moskau kommenden Maschine mit der Aufschrift "Estado plurinacional de Bolivia": Präsident Evo Morales.
Sie landete gegen 23 Uhr. Kurz danach ging im Wiener Außenamt ein dringlicher Anruf ein. Am anderen Ende der Leitung: US-Botschafter William Eacho. Wie "Die Presse" erfuhr, behauptete er mit großer Bestimmtheit, dass Edward Snowden an Bord sei, der von den USA gesuchte Aufdecker jüngster Abhörskandale. Eacho habe auf eine diplomatische Note verwiesen, in der die USA die Auslieferung Snowdens verlangten.
http://diepresse.com/home/politik/aussenpolitik/1426275/USA-verlangten-von-Wien-Snowdens-Auslieferung
Morales could not finish his trip with stopping to refuel. That is why the pilot changed the message. He needed to convey the urgency of landing to refuel.
Morales spent about 13 hours in the Vienna airport and insists that he did not permit anyone to search his plane.
Violet_Crumble
(35,980 posts)You and I have rarely disagreed on anything at DU, but on this we see eye-to-eye. Thanks for the information you've been posting
morningfog
(18,115 posts)MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)that had to be reversed by the President of the country? Transmitting on the wrong frequency?
flamingdem
(39,333 posts)That they didn't know who it was - remember it was a rented plane.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Does he have a background in aviation?
MADem
(135,425 posts)He wasn't even in France at the time--he was in Belgium.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)France's President apologized for delaying Morales until he personally decided to let him fly over, but that never happened - the most logical answer is that the President was just being nice by agreeing with Morales' lie, not that he and Morales are both telling the truth.
And as proof, Hollande was in Belgium at the time, and this couldn't be reached - perhaps they haven't invented telecommunications in Belgium.
Seems pretty airtight.
MADem
(135,425 posts)because his pilot said they needed fuel. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/07/03/evo-morales-controversial-flight-over-europe-minute-by-heavily-disputed-minute/
French narrative: They had permission, but maybe not at first
The European countries accused by Morales of diverting his flight and doing the United States bidding have not been particularly talkative. France has issued the most information but it has also been difficult to parse.
French government spokeswoman Najat Vallaud-Belkacem said, France ended up authorizing the flight over its airspace by Mr. Morales plane. But, according to the Associated Press, she would not say whether France had initially refused.
There was contradictory information about the identity of the passengers aboard one or two aircraft, because there was also a doubt about the number of planes that wanted to fly over France, French President Francois Hollande said in Germany, apparently allowing the possibility that the flight had been denied permission. As soon as I knew that it was the plane of Bolivias president, I immediately gave my authorization for the overflight.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)because the President apologized after Morales was on the ground?
MADem
(135,425 posts)They had conflicting information--they thought (and who would have told them? The Bolivian pilots? Could they have confused the varying flight plans that the Bolivians had filed over the previous several days, where they demanded to land in Lisbon, and Portugal said no, no, and no because there was a labor issue at the airport?) that there were TWO planes.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Whereas the truth is quite simple.
MADem
(135,425 posts)kenny blankenship
(15,689 posts)What rational adult doesn't believe in backsies?
France denied passage to the Bolivian President's plane initially, and then while the pilot was scrambling to find an alternate route to the Atlantic, Francy Holland muttered "Je le reprends" under his breath. A clear and indisputable Backsie. Ergo, it. never. happened.
Besides, how do you know M. le President Hollande didn't have his fingers crossed THE WHOLE TIME??? You don't know that. That would change everything.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)that Reuters article is bullshit as I pointed out.
It entirely hinges on one -latin- word he supposedly spoke and gives no context. (Inter alia)
While Spanish/Spanish speaking news has him saying the alert came from inside Europe. (Inter area)
Now if you or your clique can find the transcript or the footage of the press conference
and he does indeed say it came from the USA I will very happily concede the point.
I am not in a pissing match. I'm trying to find out WHAT WAS ACTUALLY SAID.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)And you are a better translator than theirs? Perhaps you should apply for a job...assuming you're a better translator than cartographer.
Caretha
(2,737 posts)Now that was funny.
Looking for a smilie, oh never mind, they all are looking a little over used lately.
flamingdem
(39,333 posts)bit however.
cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)It is of interest as a diplomatic story, but nobody actually believes there was no action/direction/interference.
And it is sort of creepy to see people claiming to believe things in which they cannot possibly, seemingly in hopes that their feigned belief will convince some dupe somewhere to believe it for real.
flamingdem
(39,333 posts)That should tell you something.
Not going to clean this up but you get the idea. Kangaroo court accusation.
USA & Canada at #OAS: it's inappropiate to draw conclusions when case is unclear. This issue only concerns #Bolivia & 4 European countries.
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5:49 PM - 9 Jul 13 (GMT-10:00) · Details
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Bricio Segovia ?@briciosegovia 2h
EEUU y Canadá en #OEA: es inapropiado hacer declaraciones sobre asuntos no esclarecidos. Esto incumbe sólo a #Bolivia y 4 países europeos.
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5:46 PM - 9 Jul 13 (GMT-10:00) · Details
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#Italy: "If the resolution urges us to apologize, it means the #OAS became a court that found us guilty beforehand.(...) Italy will respond"
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5:43 PM - 9 Jul 13 (GMT-10:00) · Details
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#Italia: Cuando en la resolución se nos pide que nos disculpemos,la #OEA se transforma en tribunal que nos considera culpables de antemano"
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Bricio Segovia ?@briciosegovia 2h
#Spain's representative at #OAS says the meeting was a mere act because the contents of the resolution was decided beforehand. #Bolivia
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Bricio Segovia ?@briciosegovia 2h
Representante de #España en #OEA califica la reunión de "teatro" e insinua que el contenido de la resolución estaba adoptada de antemano.
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Bricio Segovia ?@briciosegovia 2h
As usual, #OAS comes to a consensus & passes resolution of solidarity w #Bolivia's Prez Evo Morales. USA & Canada add a footnote (=disagree)
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)The KKK in Virginia is using Obamas presidency to recruit new members and they say its working brilliantly, more than doubling their membership to the largest the group has been in a century. Oh, and theyre not a hate group and how could you possibly think they are?
Since Obamas first term our numbers have doubled and now that were headed to a second term its going to triple, this is going to be the biggest resurgence of the Klan since 1915, said one of the Klansmen interviewed.
The Klansman have been handing out flyers in a Mechanicsville neighborhood, and neighbors who received them have contacted CBS 6.
Were not trying to target anybody or scare anybody with hate, were just using our freedom of speech to drop fliers, said one of the Klansmen interviewed.
Everyone thinks that were a hate group, were not a hate group, we dont hate anyone, and we want to see good things come to our race.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Whisp
(24,096 posts)Amonester
(11,541 posts)The KKK *not a hate group* !11!!!111
Yeah, rrrrrrrrrRRRRRRight...
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Especially when it is all willful ignorance at best, but turning quickly to lies.