ZIMMERMAN TRIAL - AFTERNOON: Day 11, Tuesday, July 9, 2013

[GreenStormCloud]

The morning thread got pretty long. Here is one for the afternoon edition.

Live stream, no commercials, no commenttors: http://www.mediaite.com/uncategorized/live-zimmerman-trial-jury-selection-day-6/

[uppityperson]

1. Putting PART 1 in titles, part 2 and editing the OP of the other with link to this one will help

[GreenStormCloud]

4. Yes, I made an error in the way I posted. N/T

[uppityperson]

20. Whatever. Just thought it'd make things clearer. Nt

[avebury]

2. I do think that the PA can ask about the lack

of Zimmerman's DNA on Martin in the cross even though it was not brought out on direct. All you have to do is link the line of questioning to the numerouse injuries that the Defense witness testified and wouldn't you expect to find some of Zimmerman's DNA on the victim (Martin)?

[customerserviceguy]

346. He answered that

Degradation of the evidence due to packing in plastic bags rather than paper bags. Is it proof positive? No, of course not. But it could be reasonable doubt. That's all the defense needs.

[uponit7771]

3. Thx! Zimmermans gun was on his butt cheek underneath his waste and shirt I find it hard to believe..

...someone was choking on blood, yelling for help and feeling someones hand go down their waste.

[avebury]

5. I really hope that the PA who handled the

Prosecutions rebuttal on the DA's to have a summary judgement of acquittal handles the cross. I really like that guy. He is very calm, thorough and phrases all of his questions so that he is easily understood and his line of reasoning followed.

[Jim__]

6. Is this him?

[avebury]

7. No. But this guy is off to a great start. NT

[premium]

8. No, this is De la Ronda. nt.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

35. IMHO, all three prosecutors come off more likeable than the two defense attorneys.

Of the three, the lead prosecutor De La Ronda is probably the weakest, but still has a fatherly type persona about him.

Mantai, who handled the rebuttal to the motion for directed verdict, is good at putting forward the legal argument.

And of course you have John Guy, aka Kevin Costner, who did the opening who is just dreamy, even for this heterosexual male. In all seriousness though, his opening was powerful.

On the defense side, O'Mara has a very nasally sounding voice and has a very condescending attitude about him. And there's Don West, aka Knock Knock, who just comes off as a bore.

This is actually the reverse from some of the other high profile trials, where the prosecutors came off as overly self-righteous and preachy and the defense attorneys were more engaging. Say what you want about his client, Johnnie Cochran was riveting and demanded your attention. And Jose Baez had a sort of teddy bear quality to him, whereas the prosecutor in the Casey Anthony case came off as extremely smug and arrogant.

[avebury]

38. No question what so ever, all 3 PAs

are far better then the DAs.

Omara comes across as whiny and Knock Knock as condenscending. Neither of the DAs has any idea of the concept that less is more and when they need to cut things off. They tend to drag on ad nauseum.

[uponit7771]

9. PA comes out firing both barrels, good question. Why only the re-enactment?!

[uponit7771]

10. PA, gets more in...the ME didn't take in all other accounts

[avebury]

11. Why wouldn't an ME want to know everything about

a case they are working? He has admitted to picking and choosing what he considers. Not good for the defense.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

12. depends on the case.

he keeps going back to that.

[uponit7771]

14. ...and then confirms that he only testified to the reenactment...ok

[Lurks Often]

15. Nonsense, they brought Dr. DiMaio

in for his expertise on gunshot wounds, autopsies and other forensic issues. The testimonies of the other witnesses aren't relevant to the physical evidence he is testifying on.

[uponit7771]

17. ...but he went off the reenactment though...isn't that what he said?

[Lurks Often]

29. I don't believe so, I believe he is going by the

physical evidence such as the clothing, ME report and photos

[bettyellen]

412. no he went by the edited materials the attorney gave him- same as the animator did.

nothing wrong with the jury finding out exactly how these hired guns work.

[Lurks Often]

413. "Hired Guns"

Dr Di Maio is an acknowledged world expert on forensics, he wrote the books other ME's use as a reference.

Are you unhappy with this "hired gun" because his testimony is in direct conflict with what you think happened or because the "hired guns" the State tried to use were denied because their "knowledge" was deemed to be unproven?

[bettyellen]

414. no, I'm very happy how he fell apart on cross. especially how he called some witnesses liars, LOL.

he looked incredibly nervous and unprofessional in the end, and that was pretty amusing. Now he may be further discredited for collaborating on the video- that kind of collusion between witnesses that are sequestered is extremely problematic. Hope the lawyers get the book thrown at them for pulling that shit. So many witnesses they tainted by trying to put on a fancy video instead of letting the defendant speak for themselves. What a big loss for them.

[Lurks Often]

415. Guess we saw different testimony then. n/t

[avebury]

13. Witness not looking or sounding quite so confident now. nt

[premium]

16. Prosecutors haven't refuted anything he's testified about yet. nt

[uponit7771]

18. ...other than the doc sayign he went off the reenacemnt only, if he was being objective he would've

...stayed away from all the other evidence no?

tia

[avebury]

19. The Jury may perceive that his review of the case

might be incomplete. This might be coorborated by his lacksidasical attitude.

[uponit7771]

21. "...I would say it..." to the question what if it were physically impossible to shoot TM

[avebury]

22. bob kealing ‏@bobkealing 7m BDLR so far emphasizing incompleteness

of information VDM reviewed rather than accuracy of his findings.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

23. shouldn't the prosecution be talking about the injuries and different ways to get them besides

coming from TM?

If Z has injuries and the ME is saying that these injuries are in like with Z's statement, the prosecution should be doing something.

[premium]

25. The prosecutor will get to that soon. nt.

[avaistheone1]

24. I agree. This expert witness testifies primarily in civil cases and not criminal cases.

That revelation answered some questions about his testimony for me.

Witness has lost some creds in my book.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

26. is the prosecution trying to say he was bought and paid for by asking how much he is getting paid

to be there??

[uponit7771]

27. ...no more than the PA's ME was bought and paid for via being nominated. Sounds like they both go

...through this for credibilities sake

[uponit7771]

28. Defense ME not looking good right now...

[HeroInAHalfShell]

30. on what points?

[uponit7771]

32. being sure about Zimmmermans knuckles and bruises on them. He shoudl've been more concreate

...and said NO but left it open that Zimmerman could have brusines for hitting TM

[HeroInAHalfShell]

36. it sounds like that's what YOU wanted him to say...

[uponit7771]

44. I'm pretty close...I'll add (mine) at end of statement

[uponit7771]

34. ...also, fire and rescue glasgow of 15

[avebury]

33. Is he implying that the EMT's are not

interested in making sure that a "seriously" injured Zimmerman receive hospital treatment to make sure that he survived his life threatening altercation?

He is so full of himself.

[Voice for Peace]

31. k&r

listening right now to cross exam of doctor
very good

[Duer 157099]

37. I haven't watched today. Can anybody tell me

if the expert witness said anything about the marks on GZ's head that I commented about in this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023153708

If he is saying that is evidence of an impact, I would pretty much disregard everything else he might say.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

41. are your credentials better than his? do you have any medical reasoning why he would be wrong?

what makes you think he is wrong?

[premium]

46. Because he's a witness for the defense, that seems to be the driving force here nt.

[Duer 157099]

49. If you answer my question, I'll answer yours n/t

[HeroInAHalfShell]

52. I think you are seeing what you want to see. How do you know that an injury CANT look like that?

what are your medical credentials??

[Duer 157099]

58. I am asking a specific question

Did the "expert" today testify specifically about the area on the head that I reference?

[HeroInAHalfShell]

60. yes. I thought that when he said there were red areas like that it meant the person was hitting not

a flat surface but a rigid one, like concrete.

Or was the ME talking about a different injury?

[Duer 157099]

65. I don't know, I am not watching the trial today

So that's why I'm asking those of you who are.

If you take that image I posted and crop it so that just the part of the head with those marks is shown, then you sit back, take a deep breath, and look at it again, my question would be: what is your first impression about what you are viewing?

Try that.

I did that and my response was: razor burn over either acne or ingrown hairs. The absence of marks (aside from the one birthmark/mole) far from the hairline makes me draw that conclusion.

No more, no less.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

70. I have been watching and the ME pretty much says you are wrong...

like I said before. I think you are coming to the conclusion that you want to come to.

When I look at it over and over, to me, it looks like someone was hit with something that wasn't a smooth surface.

[Duer 157099]

77. You are talking about the specific area on his head that I am?

The right temple?

Let me ask you this: are the red marks coincident with hair follicles? Yes/No

[HeroInAHalfShell]

84. umm yes. the same spot the ME talked about. In the trial you have not been watching..

so do you have another way to phrase it to make it seem like I don't know what I'm talking about?

let me ask you this: aren't there hair follicles all over our body except the bottom of our feet?


I would answer your question by saying that there are red spots on his head where there are hair follicles but there are not hair follicles themselves.

[Duer 157099]

88. By hair follicles I mean visible ones with black hairs growing out of them

Do the red marks colocalize to those, in the area of the right temple?

[HeroInAHalfShell]

97. Im not sure what colocalize means?

If it was razor burn like you stated earlier, would it still be around after the hair has grown back?

[Duer 157099]

100. Colocalize = two things located in same place

Not just razor burn, but underlying acne or ingrown hairs (both of which appear as small bumps, sometimes turning red/bleeding upon scraping as with a razor).

[HeroInAHalfShell]

103. so it has to be something besides being hit, right?

you will anyways have an answer for this, wont you?

[Duer 157099]

106. I will always have an answer for something I think I have an answer to, yes

I suppose that goes without saying though.

It does not *have* to be something besides being hit, but in this very specific situation, to wit, the right temple area of GZ's head, my observation based on experience and logic is that colocalization means something. Pavement doesn't know how to distinguish a hairline. Maybe "smart pavement" in the future will, but as far as I'm aware, we don't yet have that technology.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

118. so what about the red bumps under the hair? what is that from? the redness is in a circle,

not a straight line like a razor would cause?

when do you think Z used a razor to only shave part of his head?


haha omg smart pavement? you are really making me laugh!

[Tommy_Carcetti]

39. Prosector shows a picture of Zimmerman's bloody mouth

"I put my hand over it. What do you expect to be on it?"

"Blood."

[Voice for Peace]

367. I saw that.

powerful. I had to stop watching shortly thereafter
and am dying to know how the rest of the day went.

[uponit7771]

40. BAMB!!...PA "...I put my hand over that what do you expect to have on my hand..." answer BLOOD!

[uponit7771]

42. PA is on a roll...

[premium]

48. And yet,

he hasn't refuted anything yet, nor rattled him yet, and don't forget that the defense gets to question him again.

[uponit7771]

50. Doen't have to refute everything just lay another persepctive as the Defense has done multiple times

[premium]

55. Very true, but it would help if the state could refute

something the DR. testified to.
I'll give the state a few points, but in no way, IMO, have they begun to repair the damage done to their case by this witness.
I'm still convinced the Zimmerman is guilty of Manslaughter, but I'm of the opinion that the state hasn't proven its case beyond a reasonable doubt and the jury is going to acquit him.

We should know by probably next week, funny thing about juries, you just never know what they're going to do.

[uponit7771]

56. They got him to say that he didn't look at all the stories Z said and now is saying he'd have to loo

...llok at some of Z's statements...just some seconds ago.

[premium]

59. That's not refuting anything he testified to,

bottom line is that this witness was a very powerful witness, IMO, and it'll be interesting to see what impact it has on the juries decision, whatever it will be.

From the tweets I've read, from some of the commentators in the courtroom, the jury was riveted to his testimony, and that is usually not good for the other side.

[uponit7771]

66. ...and they don't HAVE to refute just give different perspectives.

[premium]

71. As I said, that's true,

but who do you think the jury is going to give more weight to? A renowned pathologist, or a prosecutor giving different perspectives?

[uponit7771]

76. The pathologist different perspectives he gave during PA's questioning

[naaman fletcher]

296. Of course

But remember which said has the burden of proof for Zim to get convicted.

[avebury]

43. Observation by Bob Kealing:

bob kealing ?@bobkealing 3m Woman in public seating uttered an audible "hmm" after BDLR put hand over bloody nose in GZ photo.

[friendlyFRIEND]

45. PA is absolutely desparate

working hard to get the smallest irrelevant concession.

[uponit7771]

47. unnn, he's working the defense PA pretty good...got a couple of notable points from him on clothing

[Jim__]

54. I expected the PA to ask whethr Travon's shirt could have been twisted in the fight.

That rebuts some of what the expert said about they couldn't have been face-on with Zimmerman grabbing the shirt.

[CatWoman]

51. lol

you sound foolish

[friendlyFRIEND]

57. class A insult there CatWoman

stay classy sweetheart.

[CatWoman]

61. stay simple friend

[HeroInAHalfShell]

63. this makes you look like a fool. n/t

[CatWoman]

74. let me guess

your momma don't dance and your daddy don't rock and roll

[HeroInAHalfShell]

78. lets get back on topic.

enough of this nonsense.

[CatWoman]

358. ...

[Voice for Peace]

368. ...

that

[polly7]

378. +1000 nt.

[CatWoman]

62. lol

look in the mirror much?

[friendlyFRIEND]

67. I don't understand

what are you trying to say hun?

[HeroInAHalfShell]

75. that they are better than you?

[uponit7771]

53. "...because witness's are wrong all the time..." WTF?!?! This is the defenses ME!!!

[pintobean]

64. Bernie often looks spring loaded

ready to pop out of his chair for an objection.

[uponit7771]

68. So basically if you're getting beat up to any level you can shoot someone because you don't know

....how bad you could be hurt?!

This is another reason why we need less guns

[HeroInAHalfShell]

72. because a knife would have been better?

both are killing machines.

[Hoyt]

309. Zimmerman would never have gotten out of his car with just a knife.

And, please don't post the BS about a knife massacre I'm China.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

335. wasn't even going to bring it up, but you decided too...

[Tommy_Carcetti]

69. Of course, Zimmerman didn't die or collapse later that day due to his head wounds.

The fact that didn't happen and that Zimmerman didn't himself ask to be taken to a hospital leads me to believe Zimmerman didn't think he was in a life threatening situation.

[uponit7771]

73. +1, also Zimmerman had a bloody head in the pic soon before the cop came. They keep concentrating

...on the nose as if it's the only place to get blood

[CatWoman]

79. my thoughts exactly

and when he visited his PA and she told him to go to the hospital, he STILL didn't go.

[GreenStormCloud]

188. You don't defend because of the wounds you have already taken.

That would be revenge and is illegal.

You defend to prevent taking any additional wounds which are likely to be serious or fatal. You don't even need to have any current wounds to be legally able to defend.

[customerserviceguy]

351. Good point

Did GZ have to be on death's door before he drew the gun and fired? I would imagine that under Florida law, he would not.

[Nine]

366. I am so sick of hearing this.

Why do Zimmerman defenders keep saying this over and over? No one ever said that Zimmerman had to be "at death's door" before he could defend himself. But where's the evidence that he was ever in ANY serious danger? His story is full of holes and is contradicted by other evidence.

Does a person have to be "at death's door" before he can invoke self defense? No.

Does this mean that any person who was not "at death's door" should be able to make a self-defense claim and we all have to accept it without question? Nope.

[GreenStormCloud]

370. Because you who want to lynch Z claim that his wounds weren't serious enough for self-defense.

The wounds on his head indicate that he was being injured. People like yourself want him to be more badly injured before he can defend himself.

Self-defense claims are never accepted without question. The person defended against has to have means, motive, opportunity and a demonstration of intent to seriously harm the defender before self-defense can be invoked. Only after those four have been met can you defend, but if those four are there then you don't need any injury to defend yourself with deadly force.

The law is very clear. You are not defending because you have been injured, you are defending because you are about to be injured. Obviously, you don't like the law. It isn't just FL. It is that way in all states and has nothing to do with SYG.

BTW - I believe that Z is guilty of manslaughter, but not of murder 2.

[Nine]

409. Complete strawman. It has to do with ZIMMERMAN'S claims. (And "lynch"? Really?)

Zimmerman is the one who claimed that he was in fear for his life BECAUSE Martin was attacking him - punching him in the face repeatedly and bashing his head against the sidewalk repeatedly. It's not "people like me" who are saying you can't make a self-defense claim unless you are being punched in the face and having your head slammed against a sidewalk repeatedly. It's Zimmerman who made those things part of his self defense claim. He should have come up with a better lie. Now his story is falling apart for many reasons, but particularly because of the physical evidence that doesn't support his claims. People aren't saying he wasn't injured enough to claim self defense. We're saying his whole story is bullshit.

And since you mentioned motive, what motive would Martin have ever had for attacking Zimmerman out of the blue in the way that Zimmerman describes? Why wouldn't Martin have just continued walking back to his house? Zimmerman suggests in one of his interviews that Martin was mad because Zimmerman called the police. But the police had not arrived yet and Zimmerman claims he was in the car when he was talking to police, so how would Martin have know Zimmerman called police? And, more importantly, why would Martin care that Zimmerman had called them since he was just a teenager with a fruit drink and a bag of skittles walking back to his own home at 7pm?

[customerserviceguy]

394. The question is

did he have cause as a "reasonable person" (whether he is one or not) to feel that his life was threatened at any point before the fatal shot? I fully expect O'Mara to make this point.

Why do you label me as a Zimmerman defender? All I've done is watch the trial unfold, and its been a very, very tough case for the prosecution. Why is pointing that out make me somehow on GZ's side?

In some states, you have to be within imminent death to defend yourself, in others, you are not held to such a strict standard. I happen to feel that Florida, a part of the Old Confederacy, is in the latter category, especially in the small towns like where this trial is being held.

[Nine]

410. See my response above.

I won't post in this thread anymore since a new day has started.

[Spazito]

80. This witness's testimony is rather vacuous and, in the end, is...

maybe, could be, beyond the scope of my experience, it could have been Trayvon defending himself or Zimmerman defending himself, can't really say.

It's a wash, imo. He hasn't done any damage to the State's case and really hasn't helped the defense either.

A total lack of 'bombshell' testimony that would be, to quote the hyperbolic media, a game changer, imo.

[CatWoman]

83. I don't know if it's his age, or what

but he is becoming increasingly befuddled.

[Spazito]

87. Yes, he is definitely becoming more befuddled, not sure it is age so much though...

it could be the questions being asked by the defense now are, in trying to elicit a certain response, more confusing to him. His credentials are impressive, his testimony not so much.

[Voice for Peace]

369. On cross, I was getting the sense there was a lot he didn't know

about this case -- as far as what Zimmerman
claimed happened vs what actually happened.

I thought I saw his conscience bothering him,
often, as he was blinking and twitching a great
deal under cross, and seemed to become puzzled.

[Spazito]

372. I agree, he did seem to become uncomfortable at what he didn't know...

regarding the shooting beyond what Zimmerman's taped interview and the defense lawyers told him. I can't feel too sorry for him, though, he should have known there was more and insisted on having more data before agreeing to testify, he obviously didn't do that and was quite happy to collect his fee without any questions.

[ceonupe]

295. wrong that hurts the cases 2nd degree charge

it creates reasonable doubt thus a problem for the states case.

[Spazito]

300. I disagree, his testimony didn't introduce reasonable doubt...

to the level needed in order to harm the State's case, imo. It was a wash, it neither helped nor hurt the defense and ditto for the State.

[uponit7771]

81. Wasn't raining hard enough to wash blood from back of Zimmermans head that night

[Ninga]

82. Spot on! nt

[bettyellen]

85. De Maio says Trayvon would not show bruises- so Zim could have beaten him up and we'd never know!

[CatWoman]

86. I don't understand

why wouldn't he show bruises??

[premium]

89. Once the blood stops flowing

bruises don't form.

[uponit7771]

92. Good point

[CatWoman]

93. yes

very good point

[hack89]

91. Can a dead person bruise? nt

[bettyellen]

96. this Doc is going to regret repeating that pity saying.

[bettyellen]

94. bruises take time and blood pressure to develop- he very quickly lost blood pressure and

the doc testified there is no way to know if his knuckles would have ended up bruised eventually- had Trayvon survived. I am sorry to tell him he opened a big door - Trayvon could have been pummeled.

[CatWoman]

99. didn't think about that

[Tommy_Carcetti]

105. I always wondered if they checked Trayvon's arms for bruises.

Say, for example, if Zimmerman had grabbed his arm to prevent him from leaving, I would have thought that might leave a bruise.

But if what you say is correct, I guess you couldn't tell?

[bettyellen]

331. he explained the only way to possibly see bruising damage was to cut in to the body- and they didn't

even take proper DNA samples from the poor kids nails. what a mess.

[Voice for Peace]

371. all his blood was flowing out of his heart, none left for bruising

[uponit7771]

121. +1

[JimDandy]

263. And conversely, could have pummeled Zimmerman.

Big wide door opened.

[premium]

273. There's enough reasonable doubt about the state's case

to fly a 747 through, even though, IMO, Zimmerman is guilty of Manslaughter, the state hasn't, again, IMO, proven their case beyond a reasonable doubt and Zimmerman is going to be acquitted.

[JimDandy]

287. We'll see. Zimmerman's story has holes in it,

his statements are inconsistent, the words he put in Trayvon's mouth sound made-up, the screams sound like a younger voice, and he has provably lied to this court on matters pertinent to this trial.

On the other hand the prosecution has been weak (mainly de Rionda) and didn't fill the holes when I think they could have. They have other good things, though including Jeantel's unshakable testimony that Trayvon said he was being followed and that he ran.

I think manslaughter is what they have, though. The jury instructions may be the deciding factor re the verdict...it was in the only jury I sat on. The one pertinent instruction to our jury was that we could find that, while the victim action's were absolutely legal, were they actions that a reasonable person would have done under the conditions.

Jury instructions can really throw a kink in a trial.

[customerserviceguy]

353. Zimmerman's not going to be on the stand

Therefore, the holes in his story will not be fresh in the minds of the jury members. In any case, O'Mara's quite aware of the whoppers his client told before he could tell him to keep his fat mouth shut, and is relying on testimony from those other than GZ to make his case.

In my opinion, he's done a heckuva job with what little he had to work with.

[JimDandy]

361. The prosecution's closing will freshen up

all those holes. And the prosecution gets in the very last word, as they can rebut the defense's closing but not vice-versa.

I have no doubt that liar will never take the stand. I was almost certain of that as soon as the defense started 'testifying' for him during their opening arguments, and was absolutely certain of it when they laid out their case in detail, for more than 4 hours, instead of giving a memorable and dynamic summary opening.

Attorneys only do that when they have already decided their client won't take the stand, and they therefore need to spend every second getting their client's version of the events out, including using every second of opening arguments to do so.

I also think part of the reason they won't allow Zimmerman to take the stand is they know his story is a lie and they can't suborn perjury.

ETA: I commend attorneys for taking on scum clients and putting on their best defense for them, and that is what I believe O'Mara is having to do with this client. He probably goes home every night and washes Zimmerman's slime off of him and still comes back in the morning to defend him.

[Duer 157099]

95. I'm guessing because it takes time for blood to pool in those areas

and if all the blood that your heart is pumping is going directly into your pleural cavity, not much available for distal wounds?

Just speculation of course.

[premium]

102. That's not spectulation, that's fact.

You got it correct.

[bettyellen]

113. the Doc said it himself. BDR- use better use it!!

[premium]

122. Even an EMT-B knows this. nt.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

90. I dont think "could have" goes a long way in the court room

a lot of things could have happened, but they didn't.

[bettyellen]

98. It's all Zimmerman has, forensically.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

101. how so?

[bettyellen]

111. his different stories are so unlikely- that "could be" is the best they can say about them.

and people touted Trayvons lack of injuries as significant- apparently it doesn't mean anything, because he died too fast to show bruises.

[dkf]

401. But that doesn't prove anything, much less beyond reasonable doubt.

The defense is ok with doubt, the prosecution wants beyond a reasonable doubt.

[bettyellen]

402. yes- it's going to rest on how much people can believe GZ's story- and they do not know his violent

history or all the lies he told the court at his bail hearing. So he's fortunate.
No way of knowing if they will find him credible that his fear was "reasonable" since it appears his suspicions were not at all.
Since his story has some wild variations, refusing to take the stand will probably hurt him, whether it is legally should or not.

[dkf]

403. But Z has the evidence of bruising and a broken nose.

TM doesn't. The ME really botched the autopsy.

[bettyellen]

405. TM could not bruise- as per Dr DiMaio- he died too quickly. Just as likely he had injuries as bad

as the scratches and bumps GZ sustained.
IMHO, it's just not reasonable to believe GZ's story- where he was punched 20 times, and head bashed against the concrete again and again. And where he never lifted a finger to defend himself, until he pulled the gun he had "forgotten about".
I can't say it's a remotely credible story. I do not buy it at all.
Perhaps if he had dialed it back a bit- but the obvious exaggerations shows to me he knew he was in the wrong.

[dkf]

407. DM said they could have cut deeper into tissue.

The bruising wouldn't be at the surface because not enough time and blood pressure but could be lower.

[bettyellen]

411. Exactly- for all we know Zimmeman beat Martin badly before murdering him! There's no way to prove he

did not.

[1StrongBlackMan]

129. And as technically "convincing" ...

his testimony was, I suspect the Prosecution will destroy it in closing ... How convincing would his testimony be when pointing out that he said Z is right handed (and presumably based his analysis on that assertion); when Z has spent the day writing with his Left hand, and I'm pretty certain that I'm not the only one that has noticed that.

Initially, I was puzzled as to why the Prosecutor asked the question; but didn't follow up to point out the forensic guy's error ... then my coffee kicked in ... once the forensic guy steps down, he can't go back and correct his statement. The Prosecution has the rest of the trial to call attention to Z's being left handed and, without Z taking the stand, there is no one to say "Yeah, Z writes Lefty; but shoots Righty." The jury is left with the question, "How can the forensic guy's testimony be accurate when his analysis was flawed from the start, i.e., bullet angle, distance from which the gun fired, and just about everything else regarding the shot, based on Z being right handed.

Brilliant! Well not brilliant; just well played.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

133. my father does everything left handed but he shoots right handed. feels more comfortable

to him.

[CatWoman]

135. you must be very proud

[HeroInAHalfShell]

139. your concern is noted. Im just trying to say just because you are left of right handed

doesn't mean you shoot with the same hand.

[JimDandy]

274. Weird, because all the lefties in my family

do everything with their left hands, even using their cell phones with left hand.

[Decoy of Fenris]

373. To the above poster's credit, my old man is the same way;

He's a leftie, but he bats, shoots, throws and eats with his right hand; seemingly the only thing he does with his left hand is write. I've always found it odd.

On the flip side, one of my leftie friends does everything left handed except for playing videogames. I guess it's a matter of degree.

[JimDandy]

381. With billions of humans, I suppose there is the possiblity

for that variation, so I'll accept his/your answer.

[GreenStormCloud]

385. How many shooters are in your family? N/T

[JimDandy]

387. 3 in mine and a slew of them on the "in-laws" side.

While I learned how to shoot in the military, I've never wanted to own a gun.

[GreenStormCloud]

391. Do they shoot right or left?

There are no left handed M-16s, or M-14s, or M-1s, depending on how old you are. Because there are no left-handed guns, most shooters end up learning to shoot right handed.

[JimDandy]

393. Hmm, I'll have to check on that. n/t

ETA: All righties in my family and 6 shooters in the inlaws, but all righties also. My d-i-l said "all the lefties are peace-loving".

My dear d-i-l and her sister were at Colmbine HS the day of the shooting and lost friends. Hence even the shooters in her family were for many of the gun safety laws just passed in CO.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

140. is this all you do? attack the poster?

seems like it.....

[1StrongBlackMan]

156. My sister and wife ...

are the same way ... well, not shoot; but they write Lefty and Bat, bowl, throw, righty.

But that argument hasn't been entered into evidence ... the FACT that the forensic guy based has professional opinion on the contention that Z is right handed, when the jury can plainly see that Z writes Lefty, has been. That's the beauty of the cross examination ... raised the doubt while limiting rebutting information.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

159. well true, it should have been talked about so it is known.

[1StrongBlackMan]

219. I suspect ...

that it'll be raised by the defense later at trial, probably at closing so that the defense can't find someone to say "he writes lefty but shoots righty ... honest ... I saw him and we talked about it everyday."

Further, butressing the Z is not lefty but shoots righty, is the defense did not re-direct to get the matter resolved ... they would know and want it clear, if it were true.

[GreenStormCloud]

321. It was noted on the first day that Z writes left, shoots right.

That is fairly common for lefties to shoot with the right hand. It is difficult and expensive to find a left-handed gun, so lefties learn to shoot right handed.

[1StrongBlackMan]

324. Okay ...

I missed that this was mentioned early that he rights lefty and shoots righty. It was also missed by one of the color commentary gals, who has been following the trial since day one.

[premium]

136. Not really,

I write right handed but do everything else left handed, throw, shoot, eat. That's not exactly earth shaking.

[1StrongBlackMan]

206. Yes ...

but would you say you are the rule or the exception?

Juries are supposed to base their judgment on what has been offered in evidence, not their imperfect experience ... and that will be in the jury instructions and no doubt emphasized by the defense.

The deliberation discussion will go something like this:

Juror #1: The forsensic guy really knew his stuff.

Juror #2: Yeah, but he based his opinion on Z being a righty ... I saw him writing Lefty.

Juror #1: Yeah, but I write right handed but do everything else left handed, throw, shoot, eat. That's not exactly earth shaking.

Juror #3: Good point. Does anyone know whether Z writes lefty but shoots righty?

Jurors 4-6: Gee ... I don't know.

Juror 2: Then we cannot assume that as fact; but we all saw Z writing lefty and we heard the forensic guy say Z was righty ... that's a basic earth-shaking error.

[premium]

218. Exception,

but this isn't as unusual as some might think. But you do make a good point.

[naaman fletcher]

302. Lots of lefties shoot right handed

Or else the shells eject across your field of vision

[1StrongBlackMan]

305. Is that so? ...

What do you think falls in the knowledge base of the typical person: that the forensic guy said Z was a rights and the jurors saw him writing lefty? Or, Lots of lefties shoot right handed Or else the shells eject across your field of vision?

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and pick the former.

[naaman fletcher]

307. I agree with you nt.

[GreenStormCloud]

376. The jury is not ignorant of guns.

Two report familiarity with guns, one once had a CCW. They will be aware that almost all gun are made for right-handed people. I am 67 and have never seen a lefty gun.

[GreenStormCloud]

322. First day of trial, established that Z writes left, shoots right.

Already in the record.

[Voice for Peace]

374. I noticed he asked at least one other witness the same question

didn't his shooting friend say Zimmerman was
ambidextrous?

[GreenStormCloud]

383. Try and find a left-handed gun.

All guns are made for right-handed use. Left-handed guns are specially made and extremely expensive. Two of the jurors claimed to be familiar with guns and one once had a CCW, so the jury will be aware of how guns work. So left handed people have to learn to shoot right handed.

Further, it was established on the first day that Z writes left and shoots right, so it is already on the trial record.

[1StrongBlackMan]

425. Okay ...

I (and the TV pundit that I watched yesterday) missed that.

[CatWoman]

104. City Manager up

already he seems to resent O'Mara.....

[bayareamike]

108. I had the same thought when he took the stand nt

[CatWoman]

110. I don't understand what O'Mara is getting at in regards to the tape

[chelsea0011]

109. What will be the point of his testimony? Why is he here?

[Stuckinthebush]

114. To show that the method of releasing the tape to the family

Could contaminate their views of the scream

[customerserviceguy]

354. Exactly

If there's a group expectation that it is better that it be TM screaming, then all in the room will come to that conclusion. I knew O'Mara was a crafty SOB, and he's proving me right.

[CatWoman]

115. LOL

From his demeanor, I'm thinking he was asking the same thing

[avebury]

107. The Defence ME is so full of sh*t.

I want to know who the rain could wash away the DNA from Martin but leave the blood on Zimmerman.

[Matt_in_STL]

117. I agree they are full of shit, but...

In this case, Zimmerman was supposedly bleeding actively from his wounds. So, even as blood may have been washed away, more was being deposited. Anything on Trayvon's hands could be washed away without being redeposited.

[avebury]

128. I think that, if Trayvon did everything that

Zimmerman accused him of, there would have been DNA evidence under his fingernails.

[GreenStormCloud]

173. Why under his fingernails?

Back when I was young and got into fights, I used my fist, fingernails folded into the palms, and hit with them. I didn't scratch the other guy. A fingernail scraping would have found only my own DNA. (Of course they didn't have such tests back then.) So a lack of DNA uner TM fingernails means nothing. Check TM's knuckles, or did they do that?

[NatBurner]

185. because according to GZ, TM grabbed his head and slammed it

thirty times into the concrete until it felt like it was gonna explode, and then TM, all hopped up on THC, told him to shut the fuck up as he covered his bleeding mouth and nose in an attempt to smother him

all that punching and slamming and smothering surely would leave some DNA evidence

[GreenStormCloud]

195. But not necessarily under his fingernails.

I would think in the creases of his knuckles. I am not happy with the level of investigation that the police did on this case. They did not do a complete professional job.

[katmondoo]

134. Good Point, very good point

[Tommy_Carcetti]

112. WTF was that all about?

With the City manager?

[CatWoman]

119. you too?

everyone is left scratching their heads from that one.

The City Manager really does not like O'Mara.

[Stuckinthebush]

123. It makes sense

Defense can use it to call into question the family's identification of the scream

[bayareamike]

127. It seems like the defense

Was trying to point out that the case might be politically motivated or something. I think he was trying to assert that it was unusual for the city manager and mayor to conduct/be a part of a criminal investigation.

[Stuckinthebush]

131. I don't think so

That might be a line of defense but would open up a can of worms. I think the simplest explanation is to show that no one thought it would be a bad idea to have the family listen to the tape together

[Lurks Often]

155. That conflicts with the former police chief's testimony

who told either the city manager or the mayor or both beforehand that allowing the family to listen to the 911 tape as a group would contaminate the evidence.

[Stuckinthebush]

169. Might make that testimony more powerful

CM was told not to do it
CM did it anyway
Family members all heard TMs scream

CM shouldn't have done that but did so defense can dismiss the family identification

[CatWoman]

171. yeah

that guy was just dripping with credibility.....

[Lurks Often]

304. I'm guessing you mean the former police chief

If the jury remembers the FBI expert's testimony about the possibility of bias when listening to the tape in a group setting, they may very well to decide to ignore ALL of the Martin family testimony of who was screaming that night. If they do, you can thank the city manager and mayor.

[customerserviceguy]

355. I expect O'Mara to find some way to make the point

that the prosecution, and certainly the 2nd degree murder charge, was something forced by political correctness. It's one of many weapons that he could indeed play.

[chelsea0011]

116. Next witness wants to appear in a unique way. Did I hear that right?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

120. It's George Zimmerman's best friend, Zeorge Gimmerman.

Zimmerman quickly pulls out a novelty pair of glasses and fake moustashe.

"Mr. Gimmerman, can you testify as to whose voice you heard on the 911 tape...."

[uponit7771]

125. lofl

[CatWoman]

126. On The Cycle, they are saying the defense now wants to drop testimony about Trayvon's toxicology

report -- scared it might open the door to questions about Zimmerman's use.

[Voice for Peace]

379. ahahahahaaa hahaaahahahahh

[Spazito]

142. Maybe Shellie Zimmerman?

The defense is in between a rock and a hard place, imo, when it comes to her testifying. If she doesn't, it would be glaring to the jury and if she does, the prosecution could have a heyday in cross. The defense wanted the Judge to rule against the State deposing her but the Judge allowed it seeing as she was on the witness list.

What to do, what to do.

[uponit7771]

124. Looked like some local politics going on with the city manager...

[CatWoman]

132. wasn't it the City Manager who forced the issue of letting the parents hear the tape?

or was it the mayor?

[HeroInAHalfShell]

130. so we can say that TM did hit Z, right? how else would he get those injuries on his face and head?

[uponit7771]

137. Hit himself with his own gun, gun had Z's blood on it not TM's hands. Also wounds marks the next

...day show 3 puncture wounds at the TIP of GZ's nose...There's no way 3 puncture wounds came from a teenagers fist.

I'm partial

Zimmerman trained MMA for almost a year 2-3 days a week 2-3 hours a day, was a grown 200lb man and had a gun....no way this guy was beat up by a 150ish lb skinny 10th grader...

[HeroInAHalfShell]

143. says you, ok. now I have your opinion.

[CatWoman]

147. is that all you do

attack the poster?

[HeroInAHalfShell]

150. learned from you, didn't I?

not really. The way they said it made it really seem like that is what they wish happened, not what really happened.

[CatWoman]

168. ironic, isn't it

you must be my biggest fan

[HeroInAHalfShell]

174. maybe, I didn't really say anything bad about the poster like you did..

except for the time I used what you said against you..

[CatWoman]

311. yeah

you only do that to people who disagree with you.

so it appears I'm emulating "you"

[HeroInAHalfShell]

338. hmm...

[Voice for Peace]

380. knock it off you guys

[CatWoman]

144. thank you

I was going to refer to the female pathologist's testimony, but you're on the ball (as usual)

[Ninga]

141. He fell, he rolled on the ground, he bumped into one of bushes Trayvon jumped out from.....

many choices, many ways, none of which were hits from Trayvon.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

145. so many things could have happened, but TM hitting him couldnt.

sounds like you have already made up your mind about what happened.

[CatWoman]

149. even if Trayvon did hit him

would it being justified be out of line?

[HeroInAHalfShell]

153. no, but it would give Z justification for what he did, no?

[CatWoman]

157. no

in my mind, anyway.

it is of my opinion that if someone comes out of nowhere and grabs me, I have the right to defend myself.

The Cult of Zimmerman goes thru great lengths to justify murder.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

160. If TM hit Z, would that not give Z the right to protect himself? or no?

[HeroInAHalfShell]

167. even if Z felt his life was in danger?

[yardwork]

164. No. Being hit doesn't justify killing a kid

Especially when Zimmerman initiated the problem in the first place.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

166. even if Z felt his life is in danger?

[yardwork]

172. We only have Z's word for that and he's a proven liar

It's bee proven that Z lied about having his head bashed on concrete 20 or 30 times. He lied to police about that. Z also lied to a judge about money and his passport. Why should we believe anything Zimmerman says?

[HeroInAHalfShell]

176. thats not what I asked. I asked if Z felt his life was in danger, is what he did justified?

I say yes.

[yardwork]

297. We only have Z's word that he thought his life was in danger.

I don't believe Zimmerman. I don't believe that he ever thought his life was in danger for any rational reason. Being racist isn't a good enough reason.

If I walk down the street and shoot the first black person I see, I can't say "I was afraid for my life" and get away with it. There has to be a rational reason for the fear.

[Voice for Peace]

384. "There has to be a rational reason for the fear."

I think you are exactly right, esp. when it comes to
defining "reasonable doubt."

[Avalux]

308. How do we know Z thought his life was in danger? He didn't take the stand.

He's guilty, he knows he's guilty, which is why he's taking the 5th in the courtroom.

[The Magistrate]

175. That Has To Meet A Standard Of Reasonable Belief, Sir

Zimmerman has not managed to demonstrate he had a reasonable belief he was in immediate peril of death or severe injury, such that only use of deadly force could save him.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

178. I would expect the defense to show that, right?

[The Magistrate]

191. What Does Not Exist, Sir, Cannot Be Shown....

Zimmerman's various stories are well known, and they fail to convince that he was in a position in which any reasonable person would have acted as he did.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

201. Didnt the ME state that the injuries did in fact match up with the story?

[The Magistrate]

221. Insignificant Injuries, Sir

Nothing to back up a claim only deadly force could have got him out of the situation intact. That is the question, not whether he got thumped a time or two.

[Bonx]

266. I think you're wrong. But we'll see how the jury decides. -nt

[HeroInAHalfShell]

271. we shall. n/t

[Voice for Peace]

382. how about.. saying "whoa brother, it's ok, I'm with the neighborhood watch"

"I don't want to fight you" and backing away,
like a reasonable grownup would have done.

Trayvon had the right to defend himself
from his stalker. I don't believe he made the
first bodily contact.

[uppityperson]

268. I don't get it. You asked "how else" then insult anyone who answers.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

270. because I can see they already feel Z is guilty and TM didn't do anything wrong.

[uppityperson]

278. Ah, you only want echoes of your own belief. Thanks for clarifying. IF YOU DISAGREE DON'T ANSWER

just making it clear so others won't be tempted to answer. You are welcome.

[Jim__]

138. Legal question: Zimmerman admits to shooting Trayvon.

Does the prosecution have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was not self-defense? Or, does the defense have to a least demonstrate through a preponderance of the evidence that it was.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

146. The defense does have to present affirmative evidence supporting self-defense.

It's not proof beyond a reasonable doubt, however, and the state still bears the ultimate burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

But no, the defense can't just sit back and say it was self-defense and not point to anything in evidence that could support it.

[Jim__]

151. Thanks. I wasn't sure.

[bayareamike]

152. +1 nt

[bayareamike]

148. He's been charged with second degree murder

The burden of proof is on the prosecution. They need to show, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Zimmerman demonstrated 'evil intent' in shooting TM.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

158. which I have not seen yet...

[bayareamike]

162. To be honest, nor have I. There is plenty of

doubt at this point in time. A lot of that is a result of the "he said she said" nature of this case.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

163. I agree..

[hedgehog]

306. I don't think he shot him to show what good friends they were!

Referring to a kid as a fucking punk, chasing him down and shooting him out of hand, if that's not evil, what it?

[Voice for Peace]

386. It's my understanding that there are many interpretations of what

constitutes grounds for second degree.

The prosecution cited some precedents the other
day. In one case, the ruling was that the very act
of pointing a gun and shooting someone was
considered depraved.

[Avalux]

154. The prosecution is tasked with proving reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did not act in self defense.

Zimmerman shot Martin, claiming self-defense; doesn't have to prove it. Unfortunately, the victim is not here to defend himself, to tell his side of the story. Makes the prosecution's job a lot more difficult.

[bayareamike]

165. They need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did not act in self defense nt

[Avalux]

170. Yes - thank you. I was in a hurry! n/t

[LittleBlue]

183. Once the defense presents a prima facie case

for self-defense, the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was not self-defense.

[avebury]

161. Can someone pleasea fill me in

on what happened with the City Manager?

[Spazito]

177. The intent of the defense calling him, imo, was a pathetic attempt to taint Trayvon's mother's...

testimony that it was her son screaming for help because the 911 call wasn't played to each person separately. It is a desperate ploy that will backfire given the reason for playing the tape for Trayvon's family was because it was going to be made public and simple courtesy, at the least, dictated the family hear it before it was blasted over the 'airwaves' by the media.

[Ruby the Liberal]

320. I just watched that testimony on YouTube. Holy cats!

O'Mara badgered dude about whether or not they made a purposeful decision to (i) include law enforcement or (ii) make recordings of the Martin family initial reactions (video/audio) and (iii) whether to make them listen separately so as to not affect their view (groupthink).

Oddly, they didn't ask that of Zippy's friends and family.

City Manager (CM) looked pissed and kept saying that they were going to release to the public that night, so allowed the family a private listen out of courtesy.

At one point, O'Mara referred to the family as "the witnesses" and CM responded "at this point they weren't witnesses, they were the victim's parents" and asked O'Mara to repeat the question. Dayum.

O'Mara didn't ask that the CM be treated as a hostile witness, but he did ask permission to ask "quasi-leading questions", but I doubt that mitigated anything.

If you want to watch, forward to the 1:30:00 mark in the video - testimony is under 4 minutes long.

&list=UUnN4ZxVAFoGrg-EhoRxhtTA

[bayareamike]

179. I thought BDLR's "what would you expect to be there?"

"Blood" moment was powerful for the prosecution. Just rewatched that exchange.

[Duer 157099]

180. WTF? On redirect, State let's West say TWICE that Good said he saw TM "striking" GZ!!

Didn't we already go through this several times when Good was on the stand???? His latest testimony was that all he saw was downward movement of TM's arms but could NOT verify that any actual striking went on. Yet a few minutes ago, Bernie was so busy with looking through his notes that West managed to get it in TWICE with absolutely no objection from State.

Slime ball

[HeroInAHalfShell]

182. TM's arms were going in a downward movement, but he wasn't hitting Z, what exactly was he doing?

he HAD to have been hitting Z, no?

[uponit7771]

184. ...could be, if there was blood on TM's hands it would be believable

[HeroInAHalfShell]

190. oh right, TM was just pulling weeds then, right?

what would someone be doing on top of someone moving their arms downward then?

what could he possibly have been doing?

[Ruby the Liberal]

323. Walking TF home from a convenience store run

to finish watching a basketball game? When he was accosted by an unknown redneck cop-wannabe and attempted to "Stand his ground" against an assault?

Let me know if I lost you anywhere in all of that.

Who kicked the anthill up in here?

[HeroInAHalfShell]

340. how does this relate to TM and his arms moving in a downward motion?

[Voice for Peace]

389. imagine this.. you are in a scuffle with somebody heavier and older

and you are scrabbling on the ground and he has
a gun in one hand, and you are on top of him
trying to restrain his hands so he can't use the
gun. Works for me..

[HeroInAHalfShell]

416. He might be heavier and older, but if I am taller and have longer arms...

[Voice for Peace]

418. mmm uh huh ok

[HeroInAHalfShell]

419. longer arms means easier to get from farther away.

[Voice for Peace]

420. may I ask you for an honest favor?

stop posting in defense of Zimmerman
(for the moment) and stop trying to see
the whole thing through Zimmerman's
story (for the moment),

try to consider the other side, and why
so many here believe Zimmerman was not
defending his life. Try to understand,
think about it. Think about a seventeen
year old boy you know, or you once were.

I don't care to read any more absurd
descriptions of the fight, which I have
already thoroughly considered, and have
discarded, because they make no sense
to me, and no matter how many times
you post about it, it still makes no sense.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

421. I will do whatever I please.

I have thought about it and I have determined Z was using self-defense.

[Voice for Peace]

422. ok but probably you aren't going to convert anyone's thinking.

At least not mine.

Don't forget about your human heart.
I mean, do whatever you want, but I
hope you won't forget you have a
feeling heart.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

423. I do have a feeling heart, and It sucks that this happened.

[Voice for Peace]

424. Do you believe Zimmerman's story in its entirety?

just clarifying.. or are there any parts of it that
don't make sense, or make you uncomfortable?

[madashelltoo]

187. No. He could have been struggling to

Keep the gun muzzle away from him. It would also explain why he did not respond when neighbor told them to stop.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

192. he COULD have been, but we do know TM's arms were going downward and we know what

Z has injuries on his face.

[uponit7771]

196. ...or it could be z's arms going downward and sense TM stopped blleeding no bruises showed

...that night

[HeroInAHalfShell]

204. so now Z was on top????

[madashelltoo]

212. Not from 25 to 30 blows.

Lots of things COULD have happened. That was my offering. Take it or leave it.

[GreenStormCloud]

329. That isn't the way you keep a gun muzzle away from you.

You don't pound with both hands to move a gun muzzle. You knock the gun muzzle away, grab the muzzle and use it as leverage against the fingers. The Kel-Tec PF9 has a short grip and is held by only 2 fingers, and the gun can be pried out of the hand. While TM may not have known the technique, he would not have been stupid enough to pound on a guy that was pointing a gun at him. He would know enough to at least grab the gun and wrestle for it.

Therefore the downward movements of TM's arms had nothing to do with the gun. Z hadn't pulled it yet.

[Voice for Peace]

390. you don't know he hadn't pulled the gun!

and it makes perfect sense if Trayvon was attempting
to restrain his arms so he couldn't use the gun
(or take it out, if it wasn't already out)

[GreenStormCloud]

392. Restraining somone doesn't involve rapid up & down arm movements.

John Good was an eyewitness. He saw TM's arms moving rapidly up & down. That is consistent only with hitting someone, not with restraining them. Dr. Di Maio pointed out that Z's head had been hit against something at least six times. That is consistent with TM beating up on Z.

[Duer 157099]

194. An emphatic "NO" if not "absofuckinglutely NO."

If I'm on top of someone that has a gun, my arms would be engaged full time in trying to hold that person's arms down or otherwise prevent either one of them from a) gaining access to the gun and/or b) pulling the trigger of said gun while it is pointed in my direction.

You? Is striking the ONLY thing you can think of doing with your arms under the circumstances? If so, I say you lack imagination and creativity.

[uponit7771]

200. good point

[CatWoman]

207. excellent points, to be honest

[HeroInAHalfShell]

209. would you not try to hit the person to get the gun away from them?

[Duer 157099]

214. Hell to the fucking no

My main preoccupation would be keeping that gun from pointing at me if it is already in the hand of the other person or keeping the other person from getting it into their hand.

PERIOD. Striking them would never even enter the equation for me. But that's me.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

217. right, you are you and TM is TM.

two different people who do different things..

[Duer 157099]

229. And since one of us is DEAD, I'm left with only my own supposition n/t

[HeroInAHalfShell]

238. and apparently didn't do what you needed to get the gun away.

[Duer 157099]

239. True dat

But not for lack of trying. IMHO.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

241. But not for lack of trying without hitting?

[Duer 157099]

242. OK. Since you want to pursue this.

Is there any evidence on Trayvon Martin's hands that would indicate that he struck George Zimmerman?

Yes/No

[HeroInAHalfShell]

245. as the ME stated, you could strike someone with no bruising on your hand.

[Duer 157099]

255. So you are saying: there is no evidence, but there doesn't have to be

Correct?

[uppityperson]

276. Can you hit a bloody face without getting blood on your hands?

[frylock]

251. so you knew TM personally?

[HeroInAHalfShell]

252. never said that I did... don't know where you are getting that from??

[frylock]

259. you appear to speak with some authority on the matter..

when in actuality your supposition doesn't carry any more weight than that of Duer 157099.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

261. my whole point is that everyone is different. TM is TM, Duer 157099 is Duer 157099

and that different people do different things in same situations.

[frylock]

282. yep, and in this instance i agree with Duer 157099..

I would be doing everything I could to get that muzzle away from me, and punching the person wielding the gun in the face would not be one of them.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

293. thats fine, but what you would do MIGHT be different than what TM would do, no?

[frylock]

294. or it MIGHT not, no?

[HeroInAHalfShell]

210. would you not try to hit the person to get the gun away from them?

[HeroInAHalfShell]

208. If I am on top and see a gun I am trying to hit it out of their hand or even hit them to stop them

from using the gun.

would you not hit a person who was doing this to you?

[Duer 157099]

223. JFC, I'll say it again: NO

The very last thing I'm going to do when a gun is pointed at me is to hit the person, knowing that the gun may discharge during that action.

No, what I'm doing is trying my damndest to get the gun to point in any direction but mine. That's my whole focus.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

231. JFC! I WOULD DO ANYTHING I CAN TO GET THE GUN OUT OF HIS HANDS!

ANYTHING!

[Duer 157099]

237. So would I, but getting the muzzle to point in another direction would be my priority

Striking someone is not an actioni that guarantees anything whatsoever.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

240. If I had the gun hand pushed aside, I am pissed off enough to punch the fuck out of whoever did that

to me.

[frylock]

254. two different people who do different things..

[HeroInAHalfShell]

257. that exactly my point... not everyone is the same, so when someone says..

That couldn't have happened because he didn't do this or that. well yes it can, everyone is different.

[Duer 157099]

260. In that scenario:

is the alleged punch self defense?

[HeroInAHalfShell]

267. yes. I am fearful for my life.

[CatWoman]

284. IMHO, It all boils down to

if you were so scared, wtf didn't you stay in the safety of your car and wait for police.

This isn't the Wild, Wild West.

[GreenStormCloud]

334. Absolutely, Z should have stayed in the car.

He went against Neighborhood Watch training and against CCW training. What he did was legal, but totally stupid.

[Duer 157099]

285. And well you should be

considering the actual outcome.

[uppityperson]

281. Let's try this. Is it ok for someone to do something different than you would do? 2nd question

is it ok for them to say they would do something different? 3rd and final question for this round. Does someone saying they would do something different mean you should cuss them out?

[avebury]

243. Excellent point. That supports my belief that

Zimmerman already had his gun out and that Trayvon would have been fighting him off to keep from getting shot. He was trying to keep Zimmerman from pointing the gun at him and shooting him.

[CatWoman]

262. I think Zimmerman had the gun already drawn as well

[avebury]

269. That is the only scenario that would make sense

if Trayvon got into an altercation with Zimmerman - to try to save his own life.

[Spazito]

279. I do as well, I think he had his gun drawn, came up behind Trayvon with the...

intent to hold him for the police, being the cop wannabe he was and his view that Trayvon was a "suspect". The cop wannabe was all about "suspects" and a need to be the 'hero' in something. Trayvon began screaming for help and Zimmerman panicked with the end result being Trayvon, an unarmed teenager, being shot.

[Voice for Peace]

388. he was probably trying to hold Zimmerman's arms so he couldn't point and shoot the gun.

[HeroInAHalfShell]

417. and possibly punch.

[displacedtexan]

181. I've got to stop following the live blog at wftv.com!

Their polling has GZ not guilty at 86%, and this comment was the last straw for me:


3:36
Comment From Slinky
You all need to leave the judge alone. Shes trying her best to do a mans job.

My only consolation at this point is that WFTV's polling had Casey Anthony guilty at 92%, and they were wrong.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

186. Nobody's opinion matters except 6. Not even mine or yours.

And not any of the so-called "legal experts."

Right now we have no idea what the jury is thinking. Nor should we.

[CatWoman]

189. who is this woman

and I hope they don't undergo another Skype barrage.....

[Shrek]

193. Apparently she lives nearby

and is testifying about the aftermath.

[CatWoman]

197. ah

someone else describing his "horrendous" injuries..........

[Shrek]

199. Yes, a "broken nose" witness n/t

[senseandsensibility]

203. What is going on with this woman in the hospital or in bed?

Did they explain who she was?

[Shrek]

211. Neighbor, apparently sick at home

So she's testifying remotely via FaceTime.

[Shrek]

216. I wonder if she'll say it was Zimmerman's scream

Since she isn't a family member they may think the jury will find her more credible.

[premium]

234. She just did say she believed it was Zimmerman's voice on the tape. nt.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

198. So Zimmerman had a bloody nose almost immediately after the shooting.

Again, where's the blood on Trayvon's hand if he was supposedly smothering him over the mouth?

[CatWoman]

205. exactly

it keeps coming back to that inconvenient fact.

[Stuckinthebush]

220. Well it goes to the self defense claim

A witness saw him immediately after with a severely disfigured nose.

She helps with the self defense claim

[Tommy_Carcetti]

224. There have already been pictures of the nose admitted into evidence.

Not sure what exactly is new with the witnesses' testimony.

[Stuckinthebush]

228. Nothing new

Just adding to evidence for closing

[Stuckinthebush]

233. Oops. More evidence about the scream

She adds to that as well

[kpete]

202. "after I didn't see George"

George?

[CatWoman]

213. oh get with the program

she"s black, his neighbor and friend and calls him George.

The defense just hit the trifecta!!

[Shrek]

222. If she's black and a friend

Does it undermine the perception that Zimmerman is racist?

[Stuckinthebush]

225. Yes but she doesn't claim friend status

Just neighbor

[chelsea0011]

226. I don't know about friend. She was asked if he was her friend and had trouble with

the question. She didn't say yes but instead said he lived next door and was a good neighbor.

[chelsea0011]

215. Interesting. This neighbor witness has seen Martin in the neighborhood before.

I think this is the first person to testify that Martin might have been known in the neighborhood. Am I right about that?

[kpete]

230. caught that too

[madashelltoo]

264. What are you saying?!

Zimmerman did NOT know every inhabitant of his complex? What's that you say? Trayvon was not the mystery stranger come to rob and steal, but actually spent enough time there to not be a phantom?

[Pennycat]

227. Anyone see that hottie in the front row?

She walked out with Di Mao. I should have gone to med skewl.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

232. Deep conversation you are bringing to the table today, Adric. nt

[Jim__]

236. Yes I noticed that. I wonder if that affected the jurors' opinion of Di Maio.

It looks like he travels in quite the "style" to these trials.

[Pennycat]

247. Elliot Spitzer style

[Tommy_Carcetti]

235. Weakest voice substantiation yet....

"Well, I've only heard George's voice before, so I'll just say it was him."

Paraphrasing, but pretty close.

[uponit7771]

244. ...I think they needed some racial negation with her vs a credible witness...

..she doesn't sound to sure about anything

[Shrek]

250. Never heard Martin's voice

Never heard Zimmerman scream or otherwise raise his voice.

Not sure she added much.

[Shrek]

246. What's the relevance of this?

Why does the location of the truck matter so much?

[HeroInAHalfShell]

248. how confident must the defense be if they are resting tomorrow?

[Stuckinthebush]

283. Pretty damn

I think Z walks. The defense did a hell of a job.

It saddens the hell out of me that Z will be back on the streets but damn it, why did the prosecution go for 2nd degree? Wouldn't manslaughter be an easier case for them? THat would be a max of 20 years behind bars.

[CatWoman]

298. manslaughter is on the table as well

[Stuckinthebush]

319. Good (nt)

[Spazito]

249. How was Trayvon, were one to believe Zimmerman's account (I don't) able to...

grip Zimmerman's head firm enough to slam his head into the concrete 20 - 30 times when it would have been wet from the rain, no hair to grab as Zimmerman's head was shaven and there was also blood mixed with the rain to make his head even more slippery?

If Trayvon was intent on killing Zimmerman which is what Zimmerman claims, would he not have dug his fingernails into the scalp in order to grip his head firmly enough to slam it multiple times as cited by Zimmerman. If so, why were there no fingernail marks and no Zimmerman DNA under Trayvon's fingernails?

[HeroInAHalfShell]

253. I would say no, you don't HAVE to dig your nails into someones scalp in order to grasp it firmly.

[Spazito]

256. A wet, slippery, bloody, shaven scalp?

Would it not have been slippery due to the rain and the blood? Would Trayvon's hands not also be slippery because they were wet from the rain?

[HeroInAHalfShell]

258. Its really hard to say yes or no without being there.

[Spazito]

265. The conditions, as I stated above, are known....

the rain, the blood, the shaven head and the lack of Zimmerman's DNA on Trayvon's hands or under his fingernails is known, one does not have to be there to consider the question, imo.

[GreenStormCloud]

290. You would not have to grab Z' head to hit it on the concrete.

Just hit him on the head and the head will hit what's under it. No grabbing needed. Best way to hit, in that situation, would be with the open hand, heel of the hand doing the hitting. Hitting a skull with your fist is a good way to break your own knuckles.

[Spazito]

292. Would that not leave DNA on Trayvon Martin as well, using the heel of his hand,

to hit him 20 to 30 times? The only way that could happen is if Zimmerman was laying meekly, doing nothing to protect himself, protect his head and does that seem plausible?

Edited to add: Would not numerous hits on his head by the heel of a hand leave bruises, 20 - 30 times according to Zimmerman yet he had no such bruises.

[korak]

314. At the beginning of the trial, photographs of Zimmerman's head were

displayed, taken from all sides and top by the forensic photographer lady after most of the blood seen in earlier photos was cleaned off. They can be seen at the HLN Channel website hln.com.

They show large swellings or welts on the back, top, front and both sides of his head, all accompanied by (some small) breaks in the skin. So, basically, he (Z) was struck in some manner by multiple blows all over his head.

[Spazito]

317. Here is a photo of Zimmerman from the front...

I see no marks that would indicate he had been hit anywhere other than his nose, no indications at all that he had been hit numerous times, or even a few, with the heel of a hand.

[GreenStormCloud]

315. I am not a medical examiner.

I tend to think that such hits would leave bruises and DNA transfer, both ways. But the Dr. DiMaio said not always. So I must bow to the expert, unless I can be shown better evidence.

[KurtNYC]

286. 20 to 30 times against concrete would produce injuries far worse than Zim's

1. Memory loss, especially of the events just prior to the head slam
2. Concussion
3. Inability to stand up for some period of time
4. 20 to 30 individual impact marks on the skull
5. Inability to scream for help repeatedly and with sustained volume

It just doesn't fit with the facts.

[Spazito]

289. Yep, totally agree n/t

[Honeycombe8]

377. I don't think he ever said 20 to 30 times. I can't find a source for that.

In watching the video, GZ says his head was hit once on the edge of where the sidewalk meets the grass. Then he was able to shimmy onto the grass, when TM hit his head on the ground again (but this time it's grass). Maybe he said TM kept hitting his head on the ground, but if he did, it was grass at that point.

I've asked a couple of posters, and they can't pinpoint at which statement GZ says 20 to 30 times. There's a taped statement, maybe two, at the police station, and a videotape at the site.

It does match the eyewitnesses' statement that the guy on top was doing something to the guy on bottom, with movements involving his arms coming up and going back down again repeatedly. Eyewitnesses thought he was pummeling the guy on the ground, on both sides of his head, but he didn't hear any whack sounds. He just saw that movement.

[nenagh]

272. Did Dr. Bao refer to time of death as related to brain function..

and today's ME IIRC, specified that he based time of death referring to cardiac function.

Am I remembering that correctly or incorrectly?

Thanks, not my field.

[justanaverageguy]

277. no you aren't

Dr. Bao used cardiac function for basis of time of death as well.

[nenagh]

280. thanks

[Tommy_Carcetti]

275. So I'm assuming they are now going to do more arguing over Zimmerman's cartoon? nt

[Tommy_Carcetti]

288. Mantai's a lawyer's lawyer.

Very good on the law.

[avebury]

310. Mantai is going a great job.

He is able to consistently get the witness to say that what he was using was based upon consultation with lawyers and not what has been testified to in court.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

291. No. Foundation.

Clearly this video is based on defense speculation. The guy can't point to any trial testimony on which to base his video.

[JimDandy]

299. Are they showing the actual animation?

No access to view trial today.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

301. Yeah.

Although I've mostly been going by audio right now. Work beckons.

[Ruby the Liberal]

326. Was the jury present for this cartoon?

[avebury]

303. Did they get teleported?

[Shrek]

312. I know this is serious, but I can't help chuckling over the judge

She is not taking any guff from these guys and she doesn't mind letting them see it.

[Spazito]

313. Whoa, the defense is in big trouble re Good consulting with the defense after...

the trial began and Good was still under subpoena and in sequestration. Wow....just wow.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

316. If it is as big a deal as it sounds, the prosecution could move to strike his testimony.

Which would be big, since the defense brings up Good's testimony as much as it can.

[Spazito]

318. Yeah, I am wondering how the Judge is going to handle this one...

it is a major breach by the defense, interference with a witness.

[Ruby the Liberal]

327. What?

Sorry - back at work this week and just catching up. Do you mind explaining?

[Spazito]

328. During the hearing going on now re admissibility of the animation...

it came out by the witness that he had met with Good with the knowledge of the defense, the witness who took the photos, etc., AFTER the trial had begun and while the witness was still under subpoena and, to quote the Judge, "in sequestration" where he is NOT to talk to ANYONE about the case, his testimony, etc.

The State made it clear when the Judge got the information from the witness re meeting with Good that they had NOT been informed of this at all.

[Ruby the Liberal]

330. Wow!

So the cartoon/animation was played, but not with the jury present?

Am listening to the videos - City Manager on, so will probably be clear shortly. From scanning the morning thread, looks like I didn't miss much other than they will wrap ~tomorrow.

[Spazito]

332. They are currently arguing, State and defense, on why or why not the animation...

should be allowed, the Judge has yet to rule on it's admissibility.

[Ruby the Liberal]

336. WTF? How to you cross-examine a cartoon??

[Spazito]

341. The whole hearing has been WTF? to me, lol...

it has been almost jaw-dropping in some places.

[Ruby the Liberal]

347. Before I left in June for vacay

my coworkers all knew I had pland for this repair and that painting project, and and and...

Monday 8a meeting - "so did you get 'this, that and the other' done"? "Well, no - I got sucked into the Zimmerman trial"

Jaw dropping doesn't even begin to describe it. I will go to my grave some day, shaking my head that a defense attorney tried to get the mother of a murder victim to agree with him that her son caused his own death by walking while black.

This white woman has nothing but SMDH.

[Spazito]

359. Yep, if anyone is looking for bruises they will find them on my chin from...

the numerous times my jaw dropped during this trial, usually by the actions of the defense. Their tone-deafness to both the Judge's tone and their treatment of both Trayvon's mother and Trayvon's friend during their testimony.


in repetition!

[stranger81]

343. They seem to have just glossed over this issue

and have now moved on to other items . . . . did I miss something? I can't believe the prosecution would just let that go.

[Spazito]

345. No, it is such a serious breach, it will be dealt with separate and apart from this hearing...

it is, by no means, being glossed over. The Judge's tone and the fact it was she who elicited the information from the witness re Good's 'consulting on the animation as well as the discussion between O'Mara, who acknowledged it happened, and the Judge assures it is going to be dealt with.

[stranger81]

397. Thank god.

Just finished watching the YouTube clips of the end of the admissibility hearing -- featuring a spectacular meltdown by Don West -- and just before she walked out while Team Zimmerman continued to try to argue, Judge Nelson said she'd address the sequestration violations tomorrow at 8 am sharp. She also said there were at least two different sequestration violations and suggested that defense counsel had already conceded that both occurred.

Getting a bowl of popcorn ready for breakfast in the morning . . . . .

[Spazito]

400. LOL, last night was something else...

It seems the Judge decided later to begin court at 9:00 am Florida time instead of 8:00, damn. I deliberately woke up early to watch and now have to wait but I have no doubt it will be worth it.

[Ruby the Liberal]

348. The Youtube stream I was following didn't cover this

Thanks for the heads-up though!

[Spazito]

349. You're welcome!

Believe it or not, they are still in court arguing another admissibility issue. This Judge is determined to keep the within the 4 week timeline for completion of the case, kudos to her.

[Nevernose]

325. So how did right handed TM hit GZ on the left side of his face?

It seems to me that the most logical explanation is that Trayvon was running, Zimmerman caught up to him, and Trayvon elbowed behind him. This would be the force a skinny kid would need to bust up a guy's nose like that. It also explains why there was none of Zimmerman's DNA on Trayvon.

It's totally my supposition and obviously not ever going to be mentioned in court, but I am now thoroughly convinced of this. In fact, my wife just demonstrated on me to prove her theory correct, and I still hurt

[Ruby the Liberal]

333. Nevernose = Woundednose?

Elbow, headbutt or even the gun recoiling into his face. Who knows. I will go to my grave not buying Zippy's version of events. I wouldn't trust a deathbed "confession" of soul-cleansing out of that guy.

[Nevernose]

337. I hadn't really thought of it that way

It's from one of my favorite Beatles songs, "Tomorrow Never Knows."

[Ruby the Liberal]

339. I was joking, but you bring up a good point

if Zippy is "left handed but shoots right handed" and the ME got caught flat-footed on claiming "the shooter was right handed" - could this be a precursor to Defense's inability to introduce the former concept as Trayvon being a rightie who "fights with his left"?

[Avalux]

342. Zimmerman's sat in that courtroom and hasn't said a word.

Didn't take the stand and won't because his story won't hold up. He stinks of guilt.

[CatWoman]

344. LOL

A hispanic Clarence Thomas

[Ruby the Liberal]

350. Interesting that jury selection voir dire never addressed

the fact of "non testimony is not an admission of guilt" (or similar).

I am not an attorney - but did see where a few who are brought this up as odd.

Never been on a jury myself - but if ever directly asked "would you consider someone guilty if they refused to testify at their own trial", my answer would be "hells yes, I would lean that way". I'd consider that for the best too - better they find someone unbiased as to someone like me that WOULD hold that against them.

Never thought about it before - but it is curious that Skeletor and O'Mara let that slide. They may think their case is beyond solid?

[Avalux]

352. Maybe they do and it hasn't concerned them in the slightest.

Or...more likely....Zimmerman is such a complete buffoon when he does open his trap, there was no way in hell they could let him get on the stand. So they took a chance, hoping the jury will be so sucked into their character assassination of Martin, they'll forget about the little beady eyed drab blob sitting in the corner.

[Ruby the Liberal]

356. Dollars to donutz they will insist on that

being included in the judge's instructions (if that isn't a default).

As a juror, my default nature would be to go to - what is he so afraid of (other than a kid minding his own business...)

[customerserviceguy]

360. He knows he's got holes in his story

and his lawyer knows that, too. That's why the defense team is relying so hard on witnesses that are NOT George Zimmerman.

My opinion, he embellished the hell out of things to get his ass off the hook with the cops, and then later even more so when he went on the Hannity show, hoping to raise dollars for defense from reich wingers. While it doesn't automatically make him guilty of second degree murder, it does make him a spectacularly weak witness. That's why O'Mara has to work so hard with witnesses that have not been (nor could be) so easily discreditable.

He wisely uses the truism that you don't put your defendant on the stand unless he/she is absolutely able to elicit sympathy from the jury.

[Nevernose]

364. The only tithe defense really has going for it is credibility

And George hasn't just embellished (which he did, and we're being generous with terminology), he demonstrably lied to the police. Honest people might make little mistakes; a reasonable person could conclude that he was having trouble keeping his story straight.

[Azathoth]

362. He won't take the stand because there's no need

He's told the jury his story numerous times thanks to his statements being played. There was already plenty of reasonable doubt after the State rested. Now that the defense is winding up, there are mountains of doubt. The only way he gets convicted of anything at this point is if the jury takes a personal disliking to him, and the only way that happens is if he takes the stand and lets Bernie throw darts at him for hours. So it ain't gonna happen.

[avebury]

357. How could the Judge allow the stuff on Trayvon's

cell phone and not allow the Prosecution to bring into court all of Zimmerman's past legal problems?

Talk about prejudicial! Zimmerman is the one on trial, not Martin.

[Lisa D]

363. It sounds like she's not going to allow stuff on Trayvon's

phone to come in based on authentication issues. She'll give her ruling in the morning.

[Marrah_G]

365. What bothers me the most in this trial is this:

Zimmerman has "testified" through 911 calls, friends telling his story, animations telling his story and yet with all his testimony, he can't be questioned. The jury hears his testimony and yet the prosecution has no way to question him on that testimony.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

375. That's the double edged sword of the 5th Amendment.

I too would love to hear Zimmerman try to explain away all the inconsistencies and logical flaws in his story. But that said, he has a constitutional right not to testify against himself at trial and I'm not going to advocate otherwise.

I just hope the state provides a good closing argument that ties together all the inconsistencies and problems in his various statements in a concise form.

[JimDandy]

398. The writers of the constitution

Last edited Wed Jul 10, 2013, 01:56 AM - Edit history (1)

never envisioned an environment where those who used that right would be able to deliberately record audio and video statements of their version of events in a crime, then use those recordings in lieu of actually testifying on the stand, thus avoiding the questioning that justice demands of their version of events.

This tactic has made a perversion of the fifth. The law needs to be clarified so that defendants who voluntarily record statements explaining their version of events, either can not have those statements admitted into evidence at trial, or, if they are admitted, the defendants are declared to have waived their 5th amendment rights and have opened themselves up to questioning. They should not be able to have it both ways. Justice can not be served, as we have just seen in this case, when the defendant can use artifice such as this and still be able to plead the fifth.

[hedgehog]

427. How many of the recordings would have been dismissed as hearsay if

someone had been on the stand and said "George told me that..."?

[bettyellen]

406. It's going to hurt him- but testifying would have hurt him much worse....

[hedgehog]

426. I can't recall who introduced the recordings - but I agree that once the defense

presents a recording, they've opened the door to having the defendant testify.

[Pennycat]

395. WTH is wrong with some of you people?

No one is happy about the death of TM, nor the slipshod police investigation. But referring to GM's lawyers as scum for doing their jobs? I'm not even going to get started on the cockamamie conspiracy theories I've seen on here, but 75% of you have not a clue as to how the legal system works in this country. That is very sad.

[stranger81]

396. They're not scum for doing their jobs.

They're scum for violating their ethical duties to the court and lying through their teeth about procedural issues, substantive law, and the content of testimony given in open court for everyone to hear.

You can be a defense attorney without resorting to outright falsehood. I do it every day, and so do hundreds of thousands of other lawyers across the country. These two, not so much.

Besides, isn't this what you came to DU for? Looks like you signed up in the last 48 hours solely to play devil's advocate on the Zimmerman trial threads.

[JimDandy]

399. Welcome to DU. Only 2 days here

and you feel justified in maligning "75%" (do much 'pulling numbers out of your ass'?) of all DU members?

While Zimmerman's attorneys are commendable for defending such scum, they don't need to violate their professional ethics and legal duties in order to do so. There is a line and it appears they may have crossed it. We'll find out tomorrow when Judge Nelson makes her ruling.

In the meantime, enjoy your stay and spread your wisdom around on hundreds of other topics covered here daily...just leave the whole "pulling numbers out of your ass" to the trolls.

[darkangel218]

404. Umm..no. What the hell is wrong with you?

[Marrah_G]

408. Usually one waits a little while before lashing out at posters on a new board

I can see you are a rebel though, throwing caution to the wind and all that.