Does Snowden know Venezuela records and broadcasts activists' phone calls?

[uhnope]

http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworld/2015952367_apltvenezuelawiretapping.html

President Hugo Chavez's political rivals are on notice that anything they say over the phone might be not only recorded by eavesdroppers but also played and flaunted on national television.

http://boingboing.net/2013/07/08/snowden-and-venezuela-my-biza.html

Edward Snowden is heading to Venezuela? Seriously?

The Venezuelan government's offer of "humanitarian asylum" to Edward Snowden rang hollow to most Venezuelans, who are by now used to the government spying on opposition leaders, journalists and even their own loyalists. Not only does the government routinely record their phone conversations, it broadcasts them on government-owned TV channels.

[MjolnirTime]

1. Snowden will only have one phone call where he's going.

[Romulus Quirinus]

16. Somehow, I suspect that you have MSNBC on all weekend. nt

[MjolnirTime]

22. It will be on all the stations when Snowden is taken into custody.

Don't you think?

[Cleita]

2. He probably is going to learn that he gave up a lot of his freedom.

He will be free to live his life without being imprisoned or tortured. However, he will be closely monitored. It's better than what will happen to him here under espionage charges.

[CakeGrrl]

4. "However, he will be closely monitored"

Is this not what he supposedly stole data to warn the American people about?

This will be high karmic irony indeed.

[Cali_Democrat]

6. No kidding!

[Cleita]

9. Oh, no doubt.

I have said I don't approve of what he did, but I don't want him to face the consequences we will hand to him. We have become a totalitarian nation in how we deal with those who fall afoul of our laws or perceived laws. We have become a police state that tortures and abuses prisoners for profit and that conducts surveillance of all kinds for profit.

[uhnope]

11. Great post. The prison industrial complex is a real issue here, nt

[CakeGrrl]

13. Snowden's a civilian. He could have lawyered up to the max

And surrounded himself with enough publicity to keep a light on him if torture is what he feared.

But there's no basis for the torture assumption other than his speculation.

He ran because he didn't want to face consequences, and now his "reward" could be living under TRUE surveillance.

[Cleita]

14. That's not going to happen and you know it. There are going to be no

Johnny Cochrans or other famous defense lawyers lining up to defend him.

[CakeGrrl]

17. If NO ONE was interested, it would mean that

his wrongdoing was so toxic that no one wants the case. But lawyers defend accused murderers, so I'm skeptical that some opportunistic attorneys out there wouldn't want to step up to the challenge.

That's why this situation is so sketchy to me - all based on what MIGHT happen, what COULD happen.

I just wonder how long it will take him to do a cost/benefit analysis of facing what he did and doing time in the U.S. compared to living in exile, under surveillance, with DOJ charges forever hanging over him?

[Cleita]

18. No, it just means that his posse doesn't have the big bucks to afford them. n/t

[KharmaTrain]

38. Here's One All Set To Go...On Daddy's Dime...

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/edward-snowdens-fathers-lawyer-lays-out-conditions-for-nsa-leakers-return-to-u-s-on-fox/

Fox’s Eric Bolling was the first to speak exclusively to Lonnie Snowden after his son, NSA leaker Edward Snowden, fled the country to Hong Kong. This morning on Fox & Friends, Bolling heard from Lonnie Snowden’s lawyer, Bruce Fein, who laid out the family’s demands for the Justice Department in an attempt to make a deal for Snowden to turn himself in.

Fein said he was attempting to work “with the Department of Justice of creating information directly to Mr. Edward Snowden that would enable him to make an intelligent decision of what’s available back in the United States with regard to due process.” The conditions that Fein laid out in a letter to Attorney General Eric Holder include that Snowden won’t be detained before trial, that he wouldn’t be subject to a gag order and that the trial would occur in a venue of Snowden’s choice. Fein said he had not yet heard back from the Justice Department but stressed that these are not “ultimatums” but rather “conditions” that Lonnie Snowden believes will encourage his son to return to the U.S.

Sure sounds like Snowden's got some pretty solid representation already at work...

[Cleita]

41. Bruce Fein, who the hell is he, and why would Lonnie Snowden be giving Eric Bolling

the time of day? If I were Eddie, I would be smelling a trap. As far as the "conditions" I can see Eric Holder laughing his ass off.

[KharmaTrain]

42. A Constitutional Lawyer...And Daddy's Hired Gun...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Fein

When I googled to get info on Fein I came up with a ton of links to Paulbot sites...so you decide from there.

Fein is well-known inside the beltway and here's some goodies from his wiki:

The George W. Bush administration's terrorist surveillance program which intercepted some communications without a warrant from the FISA court incensed him enough to propose censure or even impeachment of Bush.[7] He ridiculed Harriett Miers's Supreme Court nomination,[8] and was sharply criticical of then-U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales.[9][10][11]

In March 2007,he founded the American Freedom Agenda with Bob Barr, David Keene and Richard Viguerie.[11][12] Notable published writings by Fein include articles advocating the impeachment of former U.S. presidents Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, and former U.S. Vice-President Dick Cheney.

On September 2, 2008, Fein addressed Ron Paul's "Rally For The Republic" in Minneapolis, offering a critique of the Bush administration's interventionist policy and advocating a more non-interventionist foreign policy. Fein also harshly criticized the anti-terror policies of the Bush White House, including wiretapping and detention of terror suspects. In April 2009, Fein criticized President Barack Obama for declining to prosecute Bush administration officials for composing CIA memos justifying torture during interrogations.[13]
In 2011, Fein proposed impeaching President Barack Obama in connection with the 2011 military intervention in Libya.[14][15]

Sure sounds like he's trying to work a deal with Holder to make sure Edward is treated very fairly...sorry no Gitmo...and would spearhead a defense that I'm sure would be used to expose the excesses of the NSA, Booz-Allen and abuses of the FISA laws. I see Holder trying to work a deal here to bring young Snowden to justice...and then let a jury of peers decide if he's a "whistleblower" or "traitor"...

[treestar]

66. There are lawyers who love attention

That will be national news. Of course there will be Cochran-like types lining up to be Saviors of the Constitution.

[Cleita]

68. I hope so. He will need them to get a fair trial n/t

[Life Long Dem]

25. I don't think it will be all that bad

Kenneth Wayne Ford Jr. was indicted under the Espionage Act 18 U.S.C. § 793(e) for allegedly having a box of documents in his house after he left NSA employment around 2004. He was sentenced to six years in prison in 2006.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espionage_Act_of_1917

Unless they want to make an example of him. But he does have support, so I figure it will be routine.

[morningfog]

30. He's facing 30 years with just the current charges. The charges will be piled on. In reality,

he faces life. Or worse.

[Luminous Animal]

7. From his first interview, he was already aware of that.

[Cleita]

10. Yes, I did see that. Others apparently haven't. n/t

[randome]

28. I'm sure that's true.

Any fugitive is 'better off' not being in prison for their crimes.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[treestar]

65. He would be free to live in Venezuela so long as they don't decide to imprison him

He better check to see if their criminal procedure laws are up to par.

[Cleita]

67. I don't think they would imprison him, but someone as high profile as he is

will no doubt be handed some protocols as to what he can and can't do. Also, now that he is famous, he will have the normal lack of privacy famous people are subjected to until the world moves on to the next shiny object.

[Raine1967]

69. As an aside, Russia said he could stay with conditions on what he could and couldn't do.

This was after he allegedly asked Russia for asylum. I wonder if Snowden would accept any protocols.

(I say allegedly because I don't trust Russia's communications at all about this story. Snowden hasn't been seen or heard from for weeks.)

[Cleita]

72. Suspicious isn't it? I just read an article that the press that were at

the Moscow airport have left. A father told his son he would give him some money if he got a photo of him. If he were there, even if locked in security in the transit area wouldn't someone, a hotel maid maybe have tried to smuggle out a photo of him?

[MADem]

78. He'd be free to live in VZ so long as Maduro is in charge.

Assuming he doesn't commit any crimes while in VZ.

It would not surprise me if, assuming an eventual change in leadership, someone from the opposition handed the guy over....and it would also not surprise me if someone from Maduro's own party, say, someone from the ARMY, who was once close to Hugo, made a move, shoved Maduro aside, and worked a deal to trade Snowden for a dial-down of the war of words and maybe a bit of basic financial aid to mitigate the problem they are having with basic foodstuffs and essential shortages.

[Number23]

3. K&R The ignorance, shrieking and uninformed hypocracy about all of this has been mortifyiing

[CakeGrrl]

5. Unbelievably ironic.

"Just get AWAY from the evil Obama empire!!!"

...and be eavesdropped on for REAL.

In a country whose politics you despise.



When is his flight?

[Number23]

15. "When is his flight?"

LOL!! I said the same thing when folks were wetting their pants with glee when Venezuela offered him asylum.

My exact words were "see ya Eddie! I know you'll be in good company soon!" but I edited out the second bit because it was one of those really special threads full of lots of really special people.

I lost all interest in this topic on DU when the same people so up in arms over this wept when he fled to China, then Russia. Then when he was was offered asylum by Venezuela and those same people screamed in glee all I could do was laugh my ass off.

[flamingdem]

8. I think he knows because Wikileaks is aware of the bad optics in Venezuela

The same person who tweeted that Boingboing article works with Greenwald, Ellsberg at their press freedom foundation.

Took them a while to point it out, they knew if they didn't it would backfire on them big time.

[apples and oranges]

12. This is a guy who went on and on about the wonderful freedoms of China

Need anyone say more?

[rhett o rick]

19. It's "Guess the Point" again. Because Venezuela is an authoritarian state you

are implying that Snowden is no better off there than in the USofA. Tell me if I guessed wrong on your elusive point.

I might point out that however bad Venezuela is, they probably wont torture him. To your disappointment I am sure.

Authoritarians must have whistle-blowers punished severely.

I choose democracy. What system do you choose?

[CakeGrrl]

21. The US won't torture him either, in my opinion.

You choose to believe it's a foregone conclusion, but that is also an opinion.

[rhett o rick]

23. And the USofA wont torture the prisoners in Gitmo either I bet. Except most of the

free world believes what we are doing is torture. Force feeding is torture.

Also, Manning was tortured. Hello. Yes the USofA tortured Manning.

But I am guessing that you want to define torture as something else, to rationalize that our country would never do such a thing.

[Katashi_itto]

27. Agree, I would want to stay out of a country that has it's media complex

sit there and as an example, try to argue that Waterboarding is not torture.

[randome]

29. Then you would want to stay out of Venezuela, too.

http://www.eluniversal.com/2011/06/25/in-venezuela-torture-is-not-at-all-a-matter-of-the-past.shtml

Snowden is an American citizen accused of espionage. He doesn't face anything more complicated than a trial.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Katashi_itto]

32. Yes, your stating "He doesn't face anything more complicated than a trial"

really makes it all fine. Obviously he now has nothing to fear.

[woo me with science]

31. How pathetic and telling that even *you* are not certain that he won't be tortured

in the United States of America.

[morningfog]

34. Life in a US prison, especially as a high profile inmate would very probably

rise to torture. He would likely be in solitary much of his life.

[rhett o rick]

35. For his own good of course. nm

[kenny blankenship]

75. If taken alive, Snowden would probably wind up in ADX Florence, the federal Supermax prison

he would never come out again. The US attys would see to it that he was charged with as many counts of espionage as the documents proved to be in his possession.
from wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADX_Florence

"A former ADX warden described the place as "a cleaner version of Hell."
Death is preferable by far.

[treestar]

70. This ^^^^^^

That claim is just ridiculous - they keep thinking repetition of it will make it true or likely.

[frylock]

91. in your opinion

[woo me with science]

33. Good post.

Thank you.

[uhnope]

59. you choose democracy? Snowden doesn't.

He chooses China, Russia and now Venezuela.

The point you find so difficult to find concerns irony/hypocrisy of a supposedly freedom-loving whistleblower getting asylum and support from a country that is much worse in exactly the kinds of undemocratic surveillance that Snowden is complaining about. Was that so hard?

Or are you just a troll.

[rhett o rick]

61. I dont like being called a troll by anyone, esp someone new here. Plez dont bother to respond to me

again.

[uhnope]

62. yeah, get huffy and personal if you can't address the points,,,nt

[rhett o rick]

73. Did I get personal? You called me a troll and forfeit further discussion. Go back to Free Republic

where you belong.

[uhnope]

79. funny lame tribalism. And you still haven't addressed any actual points.

[rhett o rick]

80. Snowden chose democracy for America. Those that live in denial will not understand

that. Just because you get to choose between two candidates chosen by the Oligarch Cabal, doesnt mean you live in a democracy.

[uhnope]

81. in Snowden's "democracy" he's above the law and pursued by triads

trying to kill him. You do know that he actually said the US might send Chinese triad assassins to get him, don't you? You do know that most of his supposed revelations have been baloney, don't you?

If he was what he claimed to be, he would have released the docs and face the consequences, as in civil disobedience. Instead he fled like a crook to the world's largest police state.

[rhett o rick]

86. He broke the law as those at the Boston Tea Party broke the law. The laws are written to protect

the Oligarchs and you side with the Oligarchs. You look the other way when they break the law. But if someone dares expose their law breaking, you want them silenced. And I dont give a crap about anything he says or has said at this point. He is one of many now that have opened the door on the authoritarian spy state.

By the way "the world's largest police state. " is the USofA.

[uhnope]

87. The USA is a worse police state than China? Your irrational hatred of the USA is showing.

And your ignorance. Go learn just a little about life in China, life in a place which uses the death penalty at the drop of a hat, life in a true surveillance state, life in a place where the government has murdered tens of thousands for practicing an unapproved religion: http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/china/report-2008
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_gong#Suppression
But thanks for showing the character of at least some knee-jerk Snowden supporters

[rhett o rick]

88. China is worse but we rank high. But I bet you love the security of the stong, dominant

authoritarian state.

If you are going to call me ignorant then obviously you dont want a decent discussion. Goodbye.

[uhnope]

89. Goodbye. Go learn something re dictatorships & police states and wallowing

in juvenile persecution complexes.

[baldguy]

20. .

[BenzoDia]

26. hehe yup.

[rhett o rick]

37. Do you have a point?

He isnt obligated to prove anything. If I called the police and told them that I thought my neighbors house was being robbed and they came out and investigated. Except for possibly testifying, my job is done. It's up to the police and prosecutor to gather evidence and prove the perps guilty or not.

Seems some dont want to know the truth. Assassinating the character of the messenger to detract from the main issue is not a character of an open-minded Democrat.

[randome]

39. And if it was determined you made a false report, you would be prosecuted for that.

In this case, it's up to S&G to show evidence to support their claims. They have not.

They are obligated to do more than talk.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[rhett o rick]

44. If I report a crime the police will investigate to see if I am lying. We need to investigate to

see if Snowden is lying, not assume it. Dare to be open-minded. Your government may not be as sweet as you desire.

[randome]

46. I never said the government was 'sweet'.

But there is a bureaucratic maze of safeguards and restrictions in place at the NSA.

S&G never mention those because they want to present only one side of the story.

Carl Bernstein said it sounds to him from what's been released that those safeguards and restrictions are good. I agree with him.

That has nothing to do with pressing for more transparency and less secrecy at the NSA.

But when some yahoo makes claims without evidence then runs off to Hong Kong and gives away national security data, I can understand the government wanting to stop that guy first.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[rhett o rick]

50. "But there is a bureaucratic maze of safeguards and restrictions in place at the NSA."

That's a load of crap and I think you know it. We've gone thru how lax these "safeguards" are. In any case we need to evaluate those safeguards. Dont you agree?

Where did you get the information that Snowden gave away USofA secrets?

[randome]

53. The safeguards showing four levels of approvals are pretty good.

And you know the Hong Kong journalists said they were shown IP addresses and hacking methods.

If I wasn't busy donating platelets right now, I'd look up that reference again.

But I guess you can't believe everything you read, right? Neither can you believe everything Snowden says.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font]
[hr]

[morningfog]

48. Why must you insist on ignoring the documents? Why?

[randome]

55. What documents?

The ones showing that data is obtained by the FBI and then transferred to the NSA upon receipt of a legal warrant?

The ones showing 4 levels of approval before anything can be done?

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font]
[hr]

[baldguy]

56. The ones Snowden says he has, but hasn't released yet.

The ones he has released but which don't say what he thought they said.

[randome]

57. Oh. Those documents.

Show us some evidence, people, and I'll believe just about anything.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font]
[hr]

[CakeGrrl]

60. Exactly. Are people actually READING what has been released?

It doesn't seem so.

[baldguy]

43. Deliberatly lying to the police is a crime.

That's why you can be arrested for filing a false police report, making false accusations, and perjury.

So far, everyone's been running around hysterically screaming "NSA! SPYING! NSA! SPYING! NSA! SPYING! NSA! SPYING! NSA! SPYING!" merely because of Snowden's accusations, when the NSA was doing nothing of the sort. The only "proof" Snowden has offered to support his accusations shows the NSA was NOT spying, and was in fact following the law. I think the fact that he has fled from the US to some of the most repressive countries existing today is indicative of his character & his values.

How is promoting the lies of Snowden to the exclusion of the truth a Democratic value? How is ignoring his character a Democratic value? How is attacking anyone who raises questions about him a Democratic value?

Isn't this the type of shit the Republicans & Tea Baggers have been doing? Andrew Breitbart? James O'Keefe? Glenn Beck? Have you ever heard of those people?

[rhett o rick]

45. Bullcrap. Grayson, Wilson, Wyden, Udall, Plame, Ellsberg, 26 Senators, are not screaming, but

asking for investigations. If someone reports that a bank has been robbed and then leaves town, your side would spend your energy hunting down the "someone" and ignoring the bank. Go figure out if the bank has really been robbed. The door is open, the safe is open, sure looks like something is wrong. But you want to hunt down the citizen and punish them severely to frighten others from similar actions. Big Brother must love you.

[uhnope]

64. Exactly right. nt

[treestar]

71. Well Stated

Sums it up quite well.

[kenny blankenship]

82. Lying to Congress is a crime - specifically the crime of perjury

James Clapper did it 14 times.

Let's see if the government takes all serious crime seriously. I'm sure Holder knows where to find Director Clapper.

[Cha]

24. I love it when more facts come out. Could this

be why Ed hasn't called Venezuela back? Or has he? .. I've been away from Snowbird most of the day so anything could have happened.

thanks uhnope

[allin99]

36. I'm going with: Better than prison.

[DCBob]

54. maybe.. maybe not.

if he does anything similar in VZ that he did here.. he's probably summarily executed.

[ProSense]

40. Consider this

if Snowden, as his supporters believe, did the country a great service, he would have had a much stronger case by staying and facing the consequences. The debate would have remained focused on the NSA's domestic program.

William Binney, Thomas Drake, and Thomas Tamm are whistleblowers who stayed and faced the consequences of their actions. They were not persecuted, they faced prosecution. They are not in jail. In fact, Tamm was the one who exposed Bush's illegal eavesdropping on Americans.

Remember whistleblower Thomas Tamm?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023032225

Even in a worse-case scenario, Snowden would likely have been released on bail:

WASHINGTON — A federal grand jury in Washington has indicted a State Department analyst suspected of disclosing top-secret information about North Korea to Fox News, the third time the Obama administration has filed criminal charges accusing people of leaks to the news media.

The indictment, dated Aug. 19 and unsealed on Friday, named Stephen Jin-Woo Kim, 43, of McLean, Va., a specialist in nuclear proliferation who worked as a contractor for the State Department. Mr. Kim, who has worked as a high-level foreign affairs analyst for a decade for various federal agencies, is accused of disclosing the information in June 2009 and of lying to the F.B.I. in September 2009.

Mr. Kim, an American citizen, pleaded not guilty on Friday in Federal District Court before Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly and was released on $100,000 bond.

- more -

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/28/world/americas/28leak.html

[UTUSN]

47. R#16 & K n/t

[DCBob]

49. I suspect they will take away his computers upon entry...

so he doenst hack into their secret network and spill the beans on who knows whats going on there.

[NoOneMan]

51. Probably, which doesn't speak volumes about what he might know about the USA

If this is his lesser of all evils, the alternative could be far worse than has yet been described

[morningfog]

52. He knows he faces life in prison in the US.

[Cali_Democrat]

58. kick

[Scurrilous]

63. Boink.

[kenny blankenship]

74. Whatever crap he has to endure in Venezuela it will still be better than this

And of course he also knows that in Venezuela, his communications will also be scooped up by the US, along with those of everyone else.

[dkf]

76. Well if its only activists phone calls that's so much more limited than here!!!

[CakeGrrl]

83. Srsly? So it's OK if Venezuela is the "lesser of two evils" in this regard?

Situational outrage over that concept, it appears.

[dkf]

85. I find it ironic.

[MADem]

77. Hilarity will ensue...! nt

[arely staircase]

84. maybe Snowden will hack their system and embarras them somehow. nt

[frylock]

90. oh look, a penny

[Luminous Animal]

92. Matt Bors has something to day about that...

[backscatter712]

93. SQUIRREL! n/t