The irony, oh the irony.

[grahamhgreen]

[Electric Monk]

1. Why do you hate America?

[railsback]

2. LoL. Yeah, the IRONY of this thread.

[JaneyVee]

3. Instead we're all just sitting down tearing each other apart on DU.

The irony indeed.

[Skittles]

4. no, not all of us

some DUers are trying to discuss serious issues just as Obama advised but they are constantly interrupted by the equivalent of a group of 5 years olds screaming and stamping their feet

[JaneyVee]

5. I agree, it isn't all. Seems like they make the loudest noise. It's hard to even

Have any meaningful debate on this without hordes of speculation and hyperbole.

[Skittles]

6. LOL

yeah, er, OK

[JaneyVee]

7. Huh? Didn't think that called for an LOL moment followed by a smiley.

You ok? But thanks for proving my point about NOT being able to have a serious conversation about this. My serious conversations usually don't include an LOL or a rolling smiley, Skittles.

[1StrongBlackMan]

11. Didn't you know ...

tearing down other "Democrats" on DemocraticUnderground IS speaking up!

And the gop strategists wake up every morning grateful that they do not have to promote the gop platform, the gop's obstruction, or gop candidates.

[IrishAyes]

14. The trolls do the devil's work, know it, and are proud.

Weiner was right about one thing - it's past time real Democrats quit taking library books to a knife fight. The trolls in here are just GOP shills and nothing more. I can have a good heated debate with a sincere person, but only a fool wastes breath on tunnel rats. They stank up barackobama.com, too, until I felt like I had to dig through the lower reaches of an outhouse in search of one lost pearl.

Now they seem to have descended en masse on DU. I don't believe many of the snarling pack are Dems or progressives of any stripe or hue, just posers. In Ireland they'd be known as changelings.

[ReRe]

19. What was that word I heard earlier today here on DU... "Quizzlings"? n/t

[IrishAyes]

32. Very applicable.

We're tearing down our own house, too, when we invite them over with their demolition balls. I understand the natural Democrat or progressive desire for tolerance and inclusion - having lived happily in various widely differing cultures myself - but when I see a wrecking crew on the way with heavy equipment, I'm not dumb enough to throw the door open wide and yell, "Come on in, boys! Make yourselves to home!" Or watch them go about their work while I frown and wag my finger at them. When you admit to yourself the hard truth that other Americans can actually be domestic terrorists, it's easier to kick them to the curb. I don't mean physically harm them, despite my fondness for kneecap symbolism, but nullify their ability to destroy. What sane person or group clasps a known, self-declared rattlesnake to its bosom and then yelps in surprise when the bite starts to spread deadly poison?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

16. :\

[Le Taz Hot]

33. Speak for yourself.

You've no idea what DUers do when they're not posting here. Most of us understand the value of good, honest, INFORMED, LOGICAL debate. Unfortunately, too many want to make it personal and seem unwilling/unable to address an issue without demonizing the other side or assuming they know what people do when they're not posting on DU.

[L0oniX]

8. We stood up and screemed about gun control. Yea that worked dint it. pffft

[JaneyVee]

9. Yeah that was heartbreaking. A testament to our rabid extremist opposition.

[dflprincess]

15. And it was clear that the majority of people favored at least a public option

instead we got the Heritage Foundation insurance company profit protection plan.

Let's face it, combined the 99% doesn't have enough money to get them to listen to us.

[Maedhros]

21. More than a majority - 70+% according to most polls. [n/t]

[Martin Eden]

10. What was the MOMENT, and what did it DEMAND?

For clarification, jusk askin'

[grahamhgreen]

29. The moment when we lost our democracy and had our Constitution shredded, IMHO.

[Martin Eden]

31. That's what Obama was referring to in the quoted statement?

I would have thought the moment was his election, and the demand was to do what's necessary to fulfill the hope to achieve change.

[grahamhgreen]

42. No, that is THIS moment. Our moment. The moment.

[BornLooser]

12. To me, this moment means, with respect...

Quit killing the messenger, stop this super-secret tyranny, get the "Democrats" on the Hill on board with DEMOCRATIC ideals, abolish and abort the 11 freeper kangaroo killing klub appointed by Lord Roberts. We overturn CretinsUnited, and the Patriot "Act", along with the "actors" in the House in 2 years, so you can finish what you started, and above all else, end ALL theBFEE/Rove policies...Sir. Citizen BornLooser.

[MjolnirTime]

13. How is what Snowden did different than what the Rosenbergs or any spy has done?

They all believed their causes to be righteous.

How is Snowden above reproach?

He hasn't even been completely forthcoming.
He holds back the information he chooses and picks what fits his narrative.
Playing people and nations like puppets because they think his word is golden.

[grahamhgreen]

30. He revealed not just a crime, but a pattern and practice of criminality. Whistleblowing is not a

crime.

[Orsino]

40. Whether or not he is above reproach...

...we owe him this latest chance to debate the issue and to force some concessions. I suggest we not blow the opportunity in uninformed recrimination.

Whatever crimes he has committed may be insignificant next to his accomplishment. We may never see much evidence, but I suspect the the only things he has endangered are corporate and political power.

[Billy Pilgrim]

17. This might be a strategic move executed by those who own our government.

It results in partisan bickering. It distances goal posts. It nurtures empowerment. It builds public apathy.

First, some didn't like having their 2nd amendment rights violated, now some don't like having their 4th amendment rights violated. Many have lived a long time with their 5th amendment rights violated. As more rights are violated, and as more news cycles come and go, the more normal it becomes. The more normal it becomes the less the populace cares. The less the populace cares, the more opportunity there is to sieze power.

If this were a negotiation the same techniques would be employed.

[ReRe]

18. Not being snarky.... do you have a date when he spoke those words? ;-) n/t

[Tx4obama]

20. Obama did NOT say 'go out and commit felonies and then run off to China and Russia' n/t

[IrishAyes]

34. Agreed.

I'm reminded of what Lincoln said about one of his opponents; that the man could point to a horse chestnut and declare it to be a chestnut horse. On the subject of twisting words, which President Obama's blind-rage opponents do every time he opens his mouth. They don't want to admit that if they dropped their pick axes long enough, we would at least often be more willing to listen. But that's not their goal - it's only to destroy, and who engages a targeted group in honest dialog when they're marked for destruction anyway? The right wingers - and to me that includes libertarians! - are nihilists, plain and simple.

[Gore1FL]

22. Here is the quote (concerning climate change) in full context:

There is much more at the site, but I figure a full couple of paragraphs on both sides will suffice.

Our founders believed that those of us in positions of power are elected not just to serve as custodians of the present, but as caretakers of the future. And they charged us to make decisions with an eye on a longer horizon than the arc of our own political careers. That’s what the American people expect. That’s what they deserve.

And someday, our children, and our children’s children, will look at us in the eye and they'll ask us, did we do all that we could when we had the chance to deal with this problem and leave them a cleaner, safer, more stable world? And I want to be able to say, yes, we did. Don’t you want that? (Applause.)

Americans are not a people who look backwards; we're a people who look forward. We're not a people who fear what the future holds; we shape it. What we need in this fight are citizens who will stand up, and speak up, and compel us to do what this moment demands.

Understand this is not just a job for politicians. So I'm going to need all of you to educate your classmates, your colleagues, your parents, your friends. Tell them what’s at stake. Speak up at town halls, church groups, PTA meetings. Push back on misinformation. Speak up for the facts. Broaden the circle of those who are willing to stand up for our future. (Applause.)

Convince those in power to reduce our carbon pollution. Push your own communities to adopt smarter practices. Invest. Divest. (Applause.) Remind folks there's no contradiction between a sound environment and strong economic growth. And remind everyone who represents you at every level of government that sheltering future generations against the ravages of climate change is a prerequisite for your vote. Make yourself heard on this issue.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2013/06/25/remarks-president-climate-change

Odd picture they chose of the president. There are much better pictures of him here:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/photos-and-video/photogallery/july-2013-photo-day

[Luminous Animal]

23. Thank you for the context. From my point of view, it nails the OPs point.

And I like the picture. To me, it appears that he is looking resolutely into the future. (And very handsome while doing so, to boot!)

[IrishAyes]

35. Well, that's another crime he's committed, apparently!

How dare President Barack Hussein Obama show brilliant intellect, dedicated care for the less fortunate, often more appreciation from other countries than he gets at home, and then turn around and still LOOK GOOD! Why, the nerve of the man! What will he do next???

[Martin Eden]

37. Thank you for putting the quote in context

It puts the lie to the intent of the OP.

[LondonReign2]

38. It does?

Aren't there things about which we should also stand up, speak out, and compel our leaders to do the right thing besides just climate change?

[Martin Eden]

39. The OP was very misleading

Sure, we should stand up and speak out on every important issue. And we should also be truthful and not mislead by taking quotes out of context.

[grahamhgreen]

41. No, it's Obama who is misleading. Speaking out is what Snowden did. He should amplify

Snow dens voice, not crush it.

[Martin Eden]

43. Obama was not misleading in the OP quote, within the actual context.

Let's be fair, and let's be accurate. The OP was a clever but misleading attempt to demonize the president as a hypocrite.

Citizens standing up and speaking out is one thing, and breaking the law by leaking classified information is another. As Chief Executive responsible for national security the president could be in legal trouble himself if he instructed the Justice Department to ignore criminal conduct. At the very least it would create a shitstorm that would sidetrack everything else he's trying to accomplish. He'd gain support in some circles, but he'd be in big trouble in Washington.

That is a significant aspect of the reality of the situation. Now, you can argue that what he's trying to accomplish in other areas (economy, social justice, environmental protection) has fallen short of what you hoped or expected from this president, and that's a good (but different) debate. You could also argue the collection of meta data begun under the previous administration and continued under this one violates the US Constitution the president is sworn to uphold. Ultimately, that is a question for the SCOTUS.

Personally, I think what Snowden did needed to be done. Constitutionally legal or not, the gathering of meta data on American citizens should only be with the informed consent of the governed. Conducted secretly without consent it is ripe for abuse, and as the tentacles of the National Security State reach deeper into our private lives our civil rights & liberties can be threatened.

However, we don't really know what the president personally thinks about this and how much real freedom of action he has in challenging the institutions of the National Security State. I'm not in his shoes, and neither are you.

I try to be a realist in all things, without losing sight of my ideals. President Obama is far from perfect. I've been very disappointed more than once, and I think he has fallen far short of the kind of leadership I thought he would bring to the office. But let's not try to paint him as the devil when we discover he's not a saint.

The OP was IMO a cheap shot that hinders any realistic assessment of this president and of the issue at hand.

[wildbilln864]

24. k & r! nt

[Poll_Blind]

25. K&R- INDEED! nt

PB

[Egalitarian Thug]

26. K&R Nice. n/t

[Hydra]

27. Oh, that stings

Been happening a lot lately though.

[Rex]

28. I tried when BP destroyed the Gulf Coast.

They didn't seem very interested. I hope they don't decide to comeback and fuck up anything else. I'm sure BP paid everyone it owed. Right? Oh ya I said something when they went ahead with the TARP scam, hey saved a lot of bankers asses right!