Trayvon Martin HAD JUST TURNED 17 and was STILL A MINOR! When he was fighting zim-zim the giggling

[Ecumenist]

murderer, HE WAS DOING HIS JOB!! I've been watching the Trayvon Martin MURDER Trial while listening to and reading the comments of the twisted people who trip all over themselves doing everything short of outright saying that "Trayvon would be alive if he wasn't so uppity", fascinated because whether he busted zimmy in the nose or knocked his fat ass to the ground, TRAYVON WAS DOING HIS JOB! I've never heard anyone raise this point, so I will. Trayvon WAS A KID, who COULD NOT ENTER INTO A CONTRACT,couldn't LEGALLY BUY ALCOHOL, he couldn't vote, HAD TO HAVE HIS PARENT'S PERMISSION TO DO THINGS THAT the vast majority of us on this board take for granted! Kids are taught by teacher and parents that if creepy types, (CRACKAS included), try to detain, kidnap etc, to "SCREAM, KICK AND DO ANYTHING YOU CAN TO KEEP THAT PERSON FROM TAKING YOU TO A SECONDARY CRIME SITE- people DO NOT SURVIVE that one!" I have heard John Walsh on "AMW" talk to experts in the field EACH AND EVERYTIME a child was snatched to SCREAM FIGHT KICK HOLLER...whatever it takes to keep themselves safe.

WHY IS IT SO DIFFICULT TO ADMIT THAT TRAYVON WAS GOING E-X-A-C-T-L-Y what kids are taught if CREEPY ADULT TYPES STALK THEM ...and he did EXACTLY what MILLIONS of children and teens are taught EACH AND EVERY YEAR by Police officers and CHILD SAFETY Advocates! If that fat fuck got a couple of "owies" for stalking a MINOR who was minding his own fucking business, returning from the local CircleK with a bag of Skittles and an Arizona Tea @ 7:16 PM that night, then damn it, so the fuck what!

That kid tried to kick, fight & scream for help and can you imagine how he had to feel to realise a few seconds before he was fatally shot, NOONE was coming to the rescue, although that's what he'd been taught? He has SO MUCH IN COMMON with Kitty Genovese but certain types refuse to see what's as plain as the pimple on a 13 yo nerd's nose... HE WAS A KID..DOING HIS JOB of KICKING, SCRATCHING, PUNCHING & SCREAMING WHEN HE WAS STALKED BY A WEIRD, CREEPY ADULT MALE WHO NEITHER IDENTIFIED HIMSELF NOR WAITED FOR THE POLICE TO ARRIVE! WHAT IS SO FUCKING HARD TO UNDERSTAND? And what the fuck different would these fucking prejudiced idiots have their own children do differently in the SAME FUCKING SITUATION? I don't give a rat's ass what colour the kid is, you attack my kid and get a busted nose, you ought to be happy that you're still sucking air. That mutha was out to murder someone, ANYONE and thought that because the person he came across was a black teenaged boy, ( IN FLORIDA), he could get away with killing his and claiming self defense. DAMN IT, Trayon's fighting and screaming was his DEFAULT because he was following what he'd been taught for God only knows how many years!

[John2]

1. You are finally

the first person that have essentially made the same observation I made! Now I'm a grown man that weigh over 200 pounds myself. Everybody has essentially took George Zimmerman's, the Sanford Police investigators and defense's concocted story, this black male kid was some kind of super stud, that was beating to death, a 204 pound grown man with a loaded gun. That is essentially John Good's story also on that rainy dark night.

I've never heard of such a story in my entire life! I just can't imagine a kid that just turned 17, weighing over 40 pounds less than me, physical enough to beat me to death. I would be embarrassed as a man, if somebody found that out. I'm just being frankly honest too. I could see it if Zimmerman was some old man, but he wasn't. That is equivalent to a small sized woman, beating up a full grown husky man.

I don't care if Martin played high school football or not, he certainly wasn't an extra ordinary jock, or he would have scholarships from a lot of schools. But that is what the defense, tried to paint him as. Zimmerman is claiming a minor beat him nearly to death, like a man beating on a female. And what is more weird, there is no evidence of Zimmerman defending himself, except with a loaded gun. If he was a female, I could see it, but there is a great disparity here, in the gender, age and physical weight. There is also a great disparity in maturity. That is why, this is racial stereo typing of Black males as some super inhuman beasts. I just can't see how anybody continues to believe this concocted story by Zimmerman and his supporters. And you know what, this brings up another matter. Why didn't the prosecution look into this matter about Martin's perceived physical capacity, the defense painted? How did he enable himself to play on these teams, with all those suspensions. I would certainly be questioing the school and his coaches and teammates about Martin's physical capabilities.

[alcibiades_mystery]

30. Exactly right

I was about Martin's size at 17 (5'11" 160lb). It's not big. It's not an imposing size. At all. And I grew up in NYC in the 80's and had to scrap more times than I like to count, and I still wouldn't have thought of myself as scary, and probably nobody else would either, just on a look-see. It's absurd. It's a fucking absurd idea. Throwing down a 204lb dude, getting to an MMA straddle and pounding on him? To death? Ridiculous.

[laundry_queen]

39. Not only that

there is a world of difference between the strength of an adolescent's muscles and an adult's mature muscles.

As a teen I wrestled with teen boys often. I was a freakishly strong girl and often showed them up in weight lifting in phys ed, so, there was wrestling often so they could show I wasn't stronger than them (it was playful fighting but just barely. It was enough this would be frowned upon now as sexual harassment). I also had a brother I had physical fights with often (unfortunately he was from the same gene pool and was also freakishly strong, so I had no advantage there...) and a father who only knew how to show his affection through playfighting and wrestling. Then I married my now-ex who didn't leave adolescence and also thought it was hilarious to wrestle with me.

So I think I can say, as someone who was 'weaker' and fought with both teens and adults, also I hit my full height and strength at 12 so I can compare the 2, and there IS no comparison between the strength of a 17 year old adolescent and a 28 year old man. It IS absurd that Trayvon would be able to hold GZ down and beat him. It IS ridiculous.

[JustAnotherGen]

2. n/t

This:

WHY IS IT SO DIFFICULT TO ADMIT THAT TRAYVON WAS GOING E-X-A-C-T-L-Y what kids are taught if CREEPY ADULT TYPES STALK THEM ...and he did EXACTLY what MILLIONS of children and teens are taught EACH AND EVERY YEAR by Police officers and CHILD SAFETY Advocates! If that fat fuck got a couple of "owies" for stalking a MINOR who was minding his own fucking business, returning from the local CircleK with a bag of Skittles and an Arizona Tea @ 7:16 PM that night, then damn it, so the fuck what!

Anyone born around the same time as Adam Walsh (I was) was taught the exact same thing. Anyone who has taken a self defense class (I have) is taught that criminals look for weak victims. They don't want a fight. You scream, yell, punch, kick and run.

Say no. Then go. And tell.

[TorchTheWitch]

18. as a female I was taught the same thing

Of course, back then (when dinosaurs roamed the earth, LOL!) we didn't have cellphones to call for help or anything like that. But we were taught the same thing. Avoid walking alone at night in not well lighted places, be aware of your surroundings (look around to see what's around you), have your car keys ready in your hand, walk purposefully with your hands and arms free, keep your purse secured across you shoulder, etc., etc. If you see someone that looks suspicious to you cross the street, walk in the other direction or otherwise try to put distance between you and the suspicious person. If someone does get too close to you looking or acting like they have malicious intent, scream, run, hit, kick, or otherwise do everything you possibly can to keep them from subduing you.

Martin had every reason to be in fear of this nut that followed him in his car watching him and then followed him on foot and than chased after him as witnesses attested they heard people running along that walkway. If it were me I would have scared shitless. As a female I've been scared shitless by far less than a stranger doing all that and would have started screaming my head off long before the git started actually running after me.

[John2]

25. And you made another

point, which I have about Zimmerman's supporters trying so hard to make his concoction of a story seem so credible. Why in the hell would Martin call someone on his cell phone, if he was going to circle back and commit murder or beat them to death? That would have been clear evidence for the police to catch him. It is more reason not to believe Mr Good either. What did he do, whisper to Martin and Zimmerman if he really spoke to them? Apparently he did, because his voice wasn't heard on those other 911 calls.

[anneboleyn]

92. Yes. If Martin had been a 17 y.o. female...

I imagine that the discussions might be somewhat different... Martin did what minors are instructed to do -- I wish the prosecution had raised this point emphatically. An all-woman jury, many of whom are mothers, would understand this issue.

[Ecumenist]

110. Amen, AnneBoleyn, AMEN!

[JustAnotherGen]

174. TorchTheWitch - Someone down thread

Asked - what if Trayvon had been a 17 year old girl. I think it's a valid question. If it were me (a woman) who is probably in much better shape than Zimmerman will ever be (and I have tne years on him) - would the assumption that it was my fault - the Victim's Fault for:

Not Running Fast Enough and quick enough . . .


Would the assumption that it was My Fault still be the same.


I'm extremely disturbed by this "It's his fault for not running" bullshit. Now - Zimmerman is indeed innocent until proven guilty. So was the little gang banging SOB that shot and killed my cousin as part of gang initiation on April 13, 1991. But a punk, is a punk, is a punk.

I hope he's found guilty. And if he is not - he will forever and always be The Guy Who Did It. He willl. And Zimmerman supporters at DU better brace themselves for the absoute hatred their sweet little fair haired boy is going to face - not just here . . . but everywhere.

The good thing is - where there's smoke there's fire. Look at what happened to OJ. He eventually got his. So let it be. However the jury goes - lets hope Zimmerman gets his eventually.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

3. but he's black and wore a hoodie in a white neighborhood at dusk. That negates every concept

don't you get that yet?

[In_The_Wind]

4. You forgot this

[Nanjing to Seoul]

6. Never include it. It should be self-explanatory the tenor of my comment. Thanks thought. :)

[In_The_Wind]

17. How anyone can support Zimmerman is beyond me. He is a guilty as the sun is hot.

[napkinz]

5. I hope JUSTICE will wipe that smirk off his face ...

Zimmerman

[freshwest]

75. To see that _____ smirking and laughing in court for a murder is an affront to life itself.

If I was there, I would want to say:

Methink thou art a general offence, and every man should beat thee. I think thou wast created for men to breathe themselves upon you.

~ To Porolles byLafeu, 'All's Well That Ends Well'

[lumpy]

155. Oh my God !!! Wish I hadn't seen that. Disgusting !

n

[yeoman6987]

178. Oh my God !!! Wish I hadn't seen that. Disgusting !

Me too. That gives me the creeps. Seriously, he looks deranged.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

160. The jury sees that smug crap too.

[Prism]

7. This is what bugs me

We're taught as children, when someone creepy confronts you, you resist.

If you resist someone coming after you, they can now shoot you?

What kind of precedent is being set here?

[Pelican]

12. Don't engage them and keep running away?

[WinkyDink]

14. Trayvon might have felt TRAPPED. And don't forget; Z was the one supposed to be in fear. Why didn't

HE "keep running away"????

[Sanity Claws]

16. He was running away

What if the kid is slower than the adult and the adult catches him?
Trayvon was carrying stuff. That would slow you down. You don't automatically ditch the stuff you went out to get just so you can run faster than the crazy ass following you.

[Sheldon Cooper]

26. wtf??

Short fat mestizos dominate in track and field.

What does that even mean?

[Threedifferentones]

31. Ya cause TM can outrun bullets.

Maybe GZ had the gun in his hand the entire time? Or maybe TM just feared he had one because of how he was acting. And what about stand your ground? TM had a right to be where he was, GZ did not have any right to accost an innocent person.

If someone told me to wait until the cops came, I would tell him to fuck right off. If that person announced any intention to hold me by force, then its fight or flight. You ask why TM didn't run? Maybe he had some reason to believe he could not get away, or maybe GZ grabbed him.

[rhett o rick]

35. Trayvon isnt on trial. He is not obliged to "run away". He may have tried to hide and

got cornered. He tried to stand his ground w/o a gun.

This was murder.

[TorchTheWitch]

41. Zimmerman caught up to him

Several witnessed testified that they heard people running on the walkway, and we know it wasn't Martin chasing after Zimmerman. Not even Zimmerman himself made the claim that Martin was chasing him. Since he had no idea there were any witnesses to his having been chasing Martin he just left out that part as though it hadn't happened.

That's the whole idea behind the Stand Your Ground laws... a person is not obligated to run away but can "stand their ground" and fight. Even without any Stand Your Ground law he could still have fought back once Zimmerman caught up to him. The obligation to flee only exists if one CAN flee or has already attempted to do so. Once they no longer CAN flee - as in this case since Zimmerman caught up to him, Martin had every legal right to protect himself.

Zimmerman had already pursued Martin in his car when Martin became aware that he was following him and then got out and pursued him on foot CHASING HIM DOWN according to testimony from several witnesses until they came face to face. At that point Martin had every right to punch first if that's what happened and he was never obligated to try to flee in the first place which even Zimmerman says that he did do because of the Stand Your Ground law.

The only person who had a right to stand their ground in this case Martin. It was Martin that was followed by the creep in the car that he DID try to run away from, and it was Zimmerman who was on the pursuit until they came face to face since the very moment he noticed Martin.

[Incitatus]

106. Wow,thanks.

I wasn't totally clear on that part (who approached who first). I haven't had time to follow all of the trial. I multiple witnesses saw a foot chase and Zimmerman never mentioned the chase to the cops, that indicates very strongly to me that Zimmerman did chase him down.

Did the prosecution make a good argument about Zimmerman never mentioning the chase? Did the defense have a retort?

[TorchTheWitch]

157. The witnesses didn't see it, they heard it

It was what alerted some of them that something was going on outside and had them peeking out their windows. Though they can't say who was chasing who there's no doubt it was Martin being chased. Zimmerman claims he never ran at any time but that Martin ran from him. The witnesses to the running described it as two people running close together... there was no pause in between where they heard one set of footsteps run by (a pause) and then a second set of footsteps run by. And it was very close to those same homes where the encounter took place, so Zimmerman had to have been running after Martin and caught up to him right around those same houses.

It was those same witnesses that also reported that they heard two voices speaking to each other one sounding higher pitched and soft and the other sounding deeper and belligerent. Some heard only the first voice then the second voice before they heard or saw the scuffling of a fight that had started while at least one person was so close they said they heard the first voice say something, the second voice responding and the first voice again before immediately they either heard or saw the scuffling of two people fighting. None of them could make out what words were said.

The prosecution didn't harp on any of this. All they did was ask each witness that explained their stories. Pretty much all they can do. Defense flung petty junk at them to try to discredit them which only made them look stupid and petty. Which was pretty much all they can do. Arguments are for opening and closing statement. Neither side wants to nor can they pontificate during the evidence phase. Far better for the witnesses own words during the questioning stand out - the jury already knows that the prosecution wants to discredit everything in favor of the defendant and the defense wants to discredit everything that isn't in favor of the defendant. What the jury wants to and needs to hear is the testimony of the witnesses. The prosecution, however, did a pretty shitty job of questioning so that what was important from the witnesses testimony was clarified for the jury.

[lumpy]

197. Good info- thanks

n

[tblue37]

149. He tried that, and the creep kept following him. nt

[Ruby the Liberal]

13. This is exactly I am personally watching this case so closely.

It is a license to shoot on sight without any requirements to deescalate, fight back or retreat. I get the castle doctrine (home invasion), but this is a potential green light to any nut with a gun who someone looks at wrong.

[MH1]

32. ^^^ Exactly. Me too. It astonishes and horrifies me to think GZ might get off entirely. nt.

[Just Saying]

154. This is why a lot of the pro gun crowd is supporting Zimmerman.

They don't want to be questioned on when they choose to use their weapon.

[rustydog]

38. Thank the GOP's step-brother ALEC

They drafted that fucked-up no back down no surrender Red Dawn shit for gutless gunowners who want to start fist fights but can't finish them without a 9mm.

If you want to push the point, Trayvon was the victim, he was stalked, he was met with deadly force and he did not back down. He defended himself against Zimmie- fuck as best he could until the slug collapsed his lung and killed him. Simply because he was a black teenager in Zimmie-fuck's 'hood.

[JI7]

8. this has been my point, and it's only because he is black that people don't view it as you say

[Ecumenist]

221. ABSO-FLIPPING-LUTELY! J17! there's more than a little racist undertone here.

It's as clear as the nose on my face.

[bravenak]

9. Thank you for saying this!!!

I tried as best as I could last week but I don't think I made my point.

[exboyfil]

10. I have been saying this for sometime

Look at the age of the male victims of Wayne Williams, Jeffrey Dahmer, and John Wayne Gacy just to name three. Williams' oldest victim was 16. Dahmer's victims were late teens and older (and he was no outstanding physical specimen). Gacy's victims were also late teens to young adults. Martin would have been entirely rational to defend himself from a creepy adult following and coming up to him at night. He was in a strange neighborhood at night.

Also you have what historically has happened to black men (think Emmitt Till).

[NaturalHigh]

46. Wayne Williams oldest victim was 27.

Nathaniel Cater

[anneboleyn]

98. Yes serial killers who kill men target teens and young adults

There are many examples of this -- not unusual at all for male serial killers who kill men. In fact at least one of Dahmer's victims escaped his clutches only to be RETURNED TO DAHMER by police when Dahmer convinced them it was just a spat between gay lovers.

[WinkyDink]

11. I agree 100%, and if there were more %, I'd add it, too. The minutiae of the "Z defenses" madden.

[DLevine]

15. Well said. I totally agree. nt

[99Forever]

19. Nice rant, my friend.

The bullshit laid out by this murdering scumbag's defense is really quite absurd, beyond the pale. If the POS ever walks outside prison walls again, it is a miscarriage of justice.

And if gun-toting troglodytes haunting this forum disagree, that's just too fucking bad.

[John2]

20. If he gets off,

it opens up doors now. Even if you are a minor between 16-17 and weigh les than 40 pounds of a young adult male, you have the right to shoot him in self defense, if he punches you. You don't even have to punch back, just shoot the kid. You also have the right to monitor any strange looking kid in your neighbor hood, even if he might be visiting a girl friend. It will open up a lot of opportunities.

[nenagh]

21. I agree absolutely... but that may not be the best strategy to bring out at the trial. (IANAL)

After watching the trial on TV, I found the Frederick Leatherman Law Blog; they live blog the trial.

Their opinion is completely different to the TV lawyers and the bloggers are very loving in their feelings for the Martin family and Trayvon.

They are wondering the significance of the button Trayvon was wearing which was identified by Trayvon's Mother just before she left the stand. In other words, the prosecution has only presented part of it's case...

It was wonderful to read about the trial from people who care so much for Trayvon and his lovely family.

[Voice for Peace]

36. very glad for this referral, thanks!

the best analysis I've been finding has been here
on DU, there are some seriously rw z-supporting
blogs out here and that's all I kept finding. This
is refreshing!

[nenagh]

43. They are biased, but it is peaceful to read..

Watching on TV causes such angst.

[Voice for Peace]

44. they are biased in the same way I am biased. the facts point in one direction.

[magical thyme]

54. here is the link. thank you, it is good reading

http://frederickleatherman.com/

[nenagh]

59. Thank you magical thyme, I haven't grasped links unfortunately....

The Sunday blog seems a little argumentative..but following the live blogging of the trial..even reading it in the evening after the trial.. helped a lot after the sensationalism of TV reporting.. so pro defence..

Don't know if you read that far, but apparently Zimmerman had some change and maxed out credit cards to take to Target. Fred
Leatherman questions therefore, was he headed to Target (store) at all.

[magical thyme]

62. links are by copy and paste

select the url, press "ctrl c" to copy it, then inside the test box "ctrl v" to paste it into your message. .

I read through Saturday; I'll have to go back and look for Sunday now.

I hope Zimmerman takes the stand. His lawyer hadn't ruled it out as of something I read here elsewhere today, and I think that's where the prosecution is trying to push him. I'm thinking he's bluffed and lied his way out of so much trouble in the past, he may well be arrogant enough to believe he can bluff and lie his way out of this.

[nenagh]

69. Thanks for the help... I'll try it...

I agree with your assessment that Zimmerman, surely from a very young age, lied and those lies were accepted not challenged.

I think someone who contributes to the blog sometimes get into the court as visitor. And some were reporting on Zimmerman sweating profusely and they commented that the court room is unusually chilly, temperature wise.

In one of the comments some days ago, it was reported that one of the jury members seemed not to be feeling too well..like a cold coming on..and she rolled her eyes after a long Don West cross examination.

Come to think of it, getting the temperature comfortable for all in the room must be difficult...and some would find being so cold was not very pleasant, akin to hypothermia.

[onehandle]

22. Zimmerman was acting on the number one gun nut fantasy.

Hunting humans.

Trayvon was cornered by a madman.

[brush]

23. What a great post

Finally someone sums it all up in one post.

Hope the zimmerman supporters choke on this.

[alcibiades_mystery]

28. Wish I could rec this 100 times...

I don't give a rat's ass what colour the kid is, you attack my kid and get a busted nose, you ought to be happy that you're still sucking air.

You damn skippy.

Then this guy killed this kid. He killed a minor child who he stalked in the dead of night.

It's unbelievable that he can round up a single defender. And yes, it's because of RACE that he can: scary Trayvon and not minor child Trayvon.

[graham4anything]

29. Thank you.

I brought up the Kitty Genovese rape/murder a few months back, and I was inundated with people calling me names and
saying that it was nothing like that.

And I remember that story as I was living in Queens, NY at the time, not all that far from there, and the story shocked and put fear into every person.

[gollygee]

33. K&R

[Voice for Peace]

34. rec and kick

[Gormy Cuss]

37. "Trayvon would be alive if he wasn't so uppity"

Yup. I hear that as subtext all too frequently when people opine on this topic.

[flvegan]

40. Thank God you were there! When do you testify?

You set 'em all straight, ya hear? Them damn CRACKAS (your word) included!

[Ecumenist]

48. Well, Hello to you too. That BOY was a child and he was MURDERED by a nut who was determined

to kill SOMEONE and the perfect target crossed his path when one looks back at the history of this country. So, whether you want to believe it or not, THAT BOY WAS MINDING HIS OWN MOTHERFUCKING BUSINESS and that SON OF A BITCH, (BTW, "CRACKA was NOT my word but Trayvon's, as testified to by RACHEL JEANTEL_ so DON'T GET IT TWISTED!), CONFRONTED HIM. PLEASE explainto me because I want to know-HOW DID TRAYVON SUFFOCATE that bitch by COVERING HIS MOUTH & NOSE, BASH HIS HEAD INTO THE SIDEWALK A-N-D grab for the gun, which was holstered on zimmy's side, (ACCORDING TO ZIM-ZIM THE LYING MURDERER), and would have been covered by Tray's knees- WHEN HE WAS, I'm assuming a NORMAL HUMAN BEING without 6 ARMS??!!

That BABY was doing what comes normally to MILLIONS OF TEENS DO EACH AND EVERYDAY! It's Amazing that zimfucker tried to excuse his murder by saying that Trayvon ran away from him and then jumped out of NONEXISTENT bushes, after Oh Yeah, Circling his car and channeling the dialogue from " South Central" jumped on him...but after getting shot, (for doing what anyone esle would do when confronted by a gunbearing KAHREEPY stranger), he channeled George Raft, Edward G Robinson AND Jimmy Cagney...."YOU GOT ME??" REALLY? I never cease to be amazed at people, tying themselves in knots to try to excuse what zimmy did. See, Trayvon just happened to be the DARKER of the two. If zimmy was the one blessed with more melanin, I wonder what you would have to say.

[flvegan]

114. Has nothing to do with what I believe.

See, I wasn't there. From what you've stated, you were and seemingly have some sweet degree in criminal psych. Congrats! When do you testify again?

[Ecumenist]

150. Here's the difference between you and me. I know and understand a well regarded legal point

and that is this...If someone comes to court with A lie, on their lips, ( or in the case of you boykiller, SEVERAL), anything and everything they say after that is suspect and to be taken with a boulder of salt. You say you weren't there, pray tell me, where you peering onto that murder, ( and that's what it was) via satellite or did you too, get your "facts" from Yahoo Answers? Because everything anyone brings up that MAKES FUCKING SENSE, especially in light of the fact that zimmy is a well versed and lizard cold liar, you go through super contortions to try to stand up for him, even though the only true things this sumbitch has ever said are his name and that he shot Tray. The rest is bullshit. I would believe anything that creep said if ihis ass was notarised.

[flvegan]

156. No you don't. You know emotion and opinion, and nothing about "well regarded legal point(s)"

I'm standing up for nobody, which, if you had ANY fucking clue you'd have regarded some time ago. I'm standing up for the legal system, and the right to stand trial. Those rights in light of emotional busybodies with nothing more than what they FEEL being spewn across the internet. Know the difference.

While I just love ALL CAPS (rollseyes) I also enjoy a good dictionary. Or spellcheck.

Yahoo Answers? Jesus, 2004 called and wants Yahoo back for what it was. Sigh.

[Ecumenist]

184. First of all, IF you cann read AND comprehend, check out this FULL thread and you will see

that a DU'er of your actually attempted to, ( however feebly), to make their point using something they got from YAHOO ANSWERS and posted where they got the response from. SECONDLY and read these carefully, I am not pulling things out of my ass, regarding these salient facts:
1) Trayvon WAS a minor, a BABY in comparison to most people on DU. I know it hurts but this comment is something called an "ACTUAL FACT".
2) Children, teens AND adults are taught to kick, punch, bite, scream BLOODY murder-whatever it takes to draw attention to themselves and prevent perverts & creeps from doing them harm, or dragging them off to a secondary crime scene. I was taught that by my mom as doubtlessly others were here on DU and children are taught this in school, by parents and countless TV shows and Programming...Now, tell me I'm an emotional busybody for pointing this out, which is implying I'm a liar...I DARE you! This is yet another FACT!
3)He was minding his own MOTHERFUCKING BUSINESS! zimpy the murderous chimp decided that "he looked suspicious and UP TO NO GOOD"...Sounds to me like the opinion of a drug addled, paranoid brain- whether steroids, Meth, Cocaine or just plain old mental illness, it was a the construct of a paranoid brain and had NO business coming out of the mouth of somecone with a Glock, zimpy's previous history and the FUCKED UP state law, SYG. That Boy was minding his OWN business, walking home with a bag of skittles & Arizona Tea.
4) He mentioned the fact that he was being eyed & followed first via car then on foot by a "Creepy Ass Cracka", ( VERBATIM), to his friend, Rachel Jeantel.
5) He RAN to get away from this CREEPY sumbitch- zimpy is even recorded stating that he was running and then made that fucked up statement about these "punks, (NOT what I heard but I'll go with what has been accepted by the court), always getting away"
6) This was after dusk in February @7:16pm. Trayvon even told Rachel that he thought he had lost the creep.
7) zimpy then started to chase him. You can even hear his laboured breathing as he's obviously running after Tray. The dispatcher heard it to and asked him if he was following that BOY. he he admitted he was, what the fuck did the dispatcher say? "We DON'T NEED you to do that"
8) zimpy has changed his story regarding the confrontation more than a surgeon changes gloves and some of his explanations MAKE NO SENSE! How the fuck does someone who lives in that subdivision, CLAIMING to be neighbourhood watch, spending alot of time walking his dog and "patrolling" a complex that has 3 (Three!) streets NOT know where he is at any given time in that place? zimpy claims that he was looking for an address because he wasn't sure where he was...WTF??!! I live in a HUGE high end neighbourhood with at least 30 streets and cross streets and I would know where I was, rain or shine, night or day, as long as I could see familiar landmarks and street signs but Trayvon jumped on him from some bushes, (turned out they didn't exist); he circled his car, taunting him, "sure, he did"; he ran back to him and ask if zim-zim had a problem and when the Murderer replied, (and this is the reason that he thought that he was within his rights to MURDER that kid), that he didn't have a problem, Trayvon responded, with all the gang-banging shtick he could muster, "You do NOW!" and ostensibly clocked him, jumping on top of him, simultaneously slamming his head into a sidewalk, (presumably with 2 hands),using 2 MORE hands to close off both his nose & mouth, ( it seems that Trayvon wasn't the only superhuman because zimmy would have us believe that the CONSTANT wailing scream was his own that he somehow managed to get out through all that slamming AND asphyxia-oh yeah, your child murderer said ON TAPE, when asked if that was his scream , "doesn't sound like me", although upon more thought, SUDDENLY, it turns out it WAS HIM after all but I digress, Trayvon used YET a fifth, Extra long arm, (think Gibbons and Spider Monkeys) to reach for a HOLSTERED gun he couldn't have seen because it would have been behind & to the left of Tray. See, by his own admission, Tray was straddling your boy with his KNEES wedged under his armpits! So, Apparently, Tray wasn't JUST a Dangerous black youth trying to work his way into some Black Panther/Bloods/Crips/(inserts any Black Criminal organisation here), hell he was also a Hindu god!
9) Now, zimmy is being "murderlated" by an African superhuman criminal-type thuggee, (remember now, he was a multiarmed Hindu god, I'm thinking an avatar of Kali, what's your guess?), who has him in a superhuman grip and supernatural ear-hold, slamming his po' ole ass, HEAD FIRST, into the sidewalk, which should have left blood droplets, stains & PUDDLES, (AND there should have been quite a bit of blood considering that the head is a BLOOD-RICH environment), with his handy dandy nitril gloves (think when he was hiding in those nonexistent bushes, he stashed a pair of gloves to head off any discovery of DNA? Inquiring minds want to know).. Alas,back to my narrative- somehow, our hero zimmy was able to "squirm" his way loose, (quite a feat because Tray's knees would have prevented his from using his arms to do anything but slap the ground at the same latitude as his head but maybe, I don't know nuthin' bout commonsense physics, I'm ignant that way, doncha know) & he left NO pinch marks on this lips, nose, cheeks, ears, his lips weren't swollen and discoloured, ( and they should have been) and no bruising, nailmarks, tearing or bleeding on those ears. There was NO mark of note, ( oh yeah, there is the question of those "OWIES" on his that someone covered with bandaids designed to be used on a hand over scraped knuckles! A medical professional would have used TRUE butterfly dressings). But whadda I know?
10) Many witnesses spoke of hearing TWO pairs of feet running down the walk behind their homes, which caused them to peer through their windows to see what was a-happening! The female witness that came up on the scene IMMEDIATELY following the murder, saw zimmy getting up from Tray and walking away, quite calm with his hands on his head.
11) zimmy made a call IMMEDIATELY following his slaughter of a TEENAGED BOY and it wasn't to the police, rescue but who was it he spoke to? That SLIGHTLY swollen nose that was apparent had COMPLETELY disappeared by the time he had arrived at the station to be questioned. Somehow, it "reappeared" by the time they walked him through the murder scene. BTW, He had NO black eyes, no swelling of his head, no OBVIOUS bruising anywhere on his face head, arms, neck ears. So either he had some miraculous healing capacity or he's a LYING LIAR who LIES! I was beaten by my father and I'm a caramel brown...GUESS WHAT? Within a few minutes follow the assault, my eyes were swelling closed and my head looked like a pumpkin. Funnily enough, with me being a strange human, I was stumbling around with a moderate concussion and looked like I'd downed a FULL keg of Ketucky Bourbon. Strangely enough, our "hero" and mine, (harrumph), zimp, was ambulatory and quite light on his feet...YET another ABSOLUTE fact!
12) Although his "legal" team tried to make Trayvon out to be a 900 lb fighting gorilla but lo & behold, it was ZIMMY who had been taking 3 3.5 MMA classes A WEEK for a full, FUCKING year! Yet and still, "HE" felt his life was in Danger? Peeing + legs + RAIN!

Listen man, I may be MANYthings but STUPID sure the hell ain't one of them. You claim to be standing up for the legal system and ALAS, facts don't get in the way of your THINLY veiled awe of a ball-less man who MURDERED a Kid carrying Candy and Tea. Which one of us is an Emotional Busybody?

[flvegan]

187. My awe? Really?

You are. You are an emotional busybody, further backed up by that entire idiotic clusterfuck of a word salad you just posted. Holy shit, recognize when you just don't fucking get it. Then, THEN you have the nads to call me out in "awe" of Zimmy when I've suggested nothing of the sort. Really? Yeah, YOU...YOU are an emotional busybody helping nothing, doing little short of giving those you hate the ammo to make light of the very things you want to believe in.

The legal system only sucks until you need it. That is the one thing I've found to be prevalent among the posters that have little better to do than...whatever the fuck that last post was.

Go ahead jury, delete it.

[Ecumenist]

200. Word Salad, eh? Now I get it.. Facts burn your pea brain in the same way that holy water burns the

possesed. BTW, Noticed you didn't answer or respond to anything. AT ALL! Damn, you're simple.

[lumpy]

201. Good post.. Too bad some people can't comprehend what the hell they read . Some people

fail to realize that the legal system has it's flaws, most created by lawyers who will do anything to win a case not giving a damn for justice.

[lumpy]

198. Most people here use common sense to make the right decisions. Common sense sometimes

works in court rooms also. Some people have self-serving and questionable agendas and some people search for the truth.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

161. The cops, DA, judge and jury weren't there either. Does that mean that crimes like murder are

forgiven instantly because no one was there when it happened? Zimmy is not guilty because on he and TM were there and TM is dead.

Call North Attleboro and tell them to release Aaron Hernandez. The cops shouldn't have arrested him. They weren't there when he supposedly executed Odin Taylor.

Release anyone from prison who was convicted based on evidence that is not eyewitness.

You are a fool!

[flvegan]

182. If I'm a fool, you're an idiot.

The cops, DA, etc will testify as to what they know. They aren't playing dipshit poster waxing stupid on a message board as to facts that are nothing but opinion. Nor are they backing such a thing.

Back to you...

[Nanjing to Seoul]

185. Your words: " Thank God you were there! When do you testify?"

Only GZ and TM were there!

And they're just dipshit police and "witnesses" and "experts" waxing stupid on the stand as to "facts" that are nothing but their interpretation of facts based on an event they did not see or witness. Words like "we believe" and "I came to the conclusion. . ." that are used in testimony ARE NOT FACTS, but interpretations of facts.

Same as the poster. Again, since no police and DA were not there, GZ is innocent using your logic.

You are still a fool.

[Ecumenist]

186. AMEN, Najing, Amen. Alot of these types are pretending to be neutral but are SIMPLY veiled

zimmy supporters who need to look into their hearts to try to figure out why they're applauding a grown man who MURDERED a baby in COLD FUCKING BLOOD. Thank and a hearty though belated welcome to DU, Right glad tameetcha!

[Nanjing to Seoul]

190. Actually, I'm not new here. I just don't have access to the email for my old account and I

forgot my password. My old name was Suji to Seoul and I've been a poster here since 2008.

[Ecumenist]

209. Well, glad to have you here. However long or short it might have been.

[flvegan]

191. LOL!

I'm applauding a person who "murdered a baby in COLD FUCKING BLOOD" really?

Dumbshit, I'm a vegan. What did you have for dinner? Murder isn't in my vocab.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

193. Vegetables aren't living things? Carrot constitutes murder

Greenhouse are prisons for slaves.

I guess killing plants is okay.

When you have an infection, do you kill the bacteria? Do you kill flies? Mosquitoes? Cockroaches? Do you pick weeds out of a garden? These are all living things.

Murder isn't in your vocabulary. . .I hear George Carlin:

The sancitity of life is a selective things. We get to choose which things we can keep alive and we get to kill the rest. Pretty neat deal, huh? You know why? We made the whole fucking thing up!

[flvegan]

194. What was for dinner?

I see I might have hit a sore point.

[Ecumenist]

212. First of all, it's nunya but since you're so interested in my in my wellbeing, (and you're such a

dear), I'm on mostly RAW FOOD diet, dear child how kind of you to ask. Trying to heal from stage 4 Cancer. Not sure why it matters as I'm not sure what this has to do with the blatant murder of a innocent 17 year old kid. What about this, since you're so badass about being a pacifist, why not go full tilt and become a Jain. I mean, if you're going to claim moral superiority, the Jains await? Don't know who that it is, Google it. Make hardcore "VEE-GANS" look like bloodthirty cannibals that eat small blue eyed babies.

[Ecumenist]

199. Wow, so now, being a Vegan, WHICH ntw, most Hindus are somehow were able to and continue to

be able to kill in the form of soldiers and basic human frailties. Hell, a Hindu extremist MURDERED Ghandi!! Did I say. "Flvegan"? Your dumbass jumped up and labelled yourself, Idiot!! lol!! I guess that no vegan has EVER committed murder, worn leather, feathers etc? You're are simple, aintcha?

[lumpy]

203. Hahahahahahahahahahaha .....

Funny

[flvegan]

188. At least witnesses and experts aren't spouting bullshit opinion

on a message board trying to pass it off as fact. Not "waxing stupid" on the stand.

GZ is not innocent by my logic at all, unless dumbfucks like the above and yourself are purporting to be experts.

You're still an idiot. "Their" indeed, lol!

[Nanjing to Seoul]

192. In testimony, all "witnesses" and "experts" are spouting bullshit opinion and waxing stupid

Especially if they making leaps. I guess TM's mom spouted stupid when she said the scream was her son. But she was not there. And the same for TM's friend who said she did not write the letter.

Look, you can have your opinion of me and people like me. . .but when you take on an aloof attitude like you have, prepare to get picked apart.

And I fixed the typo. Since English is not my first language, you can accept the mistakes. I may be an ex-pat, but English is not my first language. I have to go over my words to make sure I do not make mistakes, because I know aloof people like you will laugh at my mistakes. It has happened to me my entire life. Sometimes I miss a mistake or two.

You are an even bigger fool.

[flvegan]

195. Bigger LOL

You couldn't pick me apart with 10 of your friends, chilly.

Since the language escapes you, I'm betting the legal system does as well (good fucking bet for me).

You're still the biggest idiot.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

218. English may not be my first language, jackass, but I am an American citizen

Take your vegetable eating, arrogant, pompous, vain ass and STFU.

BTW, talk to my when you have two Master's Degrees (I do) and a PhD (I will have it within the next year).

I'll tell you want to do in my native langauge.

亲吻我的屁眼， 他妈的大王八蛋。 你笨蛋。

Use Google translate if you need to. (btw, I speak five languages fluently).

And you're in ignoreland, vegan asshat!

[Ecumenist]

202. Najing, this "person" insists that they have no dog in this fight and are COMPLETELY altruistic

They are a fake "VEE-GAN" who seem to think that they never kill, cuz you know, vegan animals are COMPLETELY pacifistic and nonviolent. You know, like elephants, moose, Cape buffalo, hippos, You know, Vegans and then there's that thing with strict observant Hindus, kinds like the one who assassinated Ghandi. Or the Extremists that attacked the Sikh Golden Temple in Amritsar, India and murdered hundreds of Sikhs and Muslims for NOT being Hindu. Yeah, that makes complete sense. I don't know what came over me thiniking not realising that because they're vegan, they'd never have ulterior motives. Wonder how many cans of red pain they've dumped on folks they "thought" were wearing natural fur?

[Zoeisright]

42. EXACTLY.

I am so fucking sick of Zimmerman apologists. A full grown man with a gun stalks and confronts a CHILD and idiots are blaming the CHILD for his own death? Christ on a fucking crutch.

[napkinz]

45. kick

nt

[NaturalHigh]

47. His age is not in dispute. His actions are.

"Crackas" are creepy, eh? Stay classy, Ecumenist.

[Ecumenist]

49. As I told your buddy friend pal,FLVEGAN, I was using the term that was used when Tray was describing

the "CREEPY ASS CRACKA", when speaking to Rachel Jeantel on the phone that night, PER RACHEL'S TESTIMONY. Pay attention, Natural.

[NaturalHigh]

51. I'm well aware that Trayvon Martin used that word.

I'm also aware that you keep ranting about race while implying that others are racist. You seem to think that anyone who is willing to consider Zimmerman's side in this case must have a racist motive. You don't seem to understand that a lot of us believe in the "innocent until proven guilty" concept and think that the state hasn't presented much of a case.

From what I saw of last week's testimony, there is no way I would vote to convict if I were on the jury, and that has nothing to do with race.

[Ecumenist]

64. Look, if the title fits because I cannot see why your ilk seem to think that he is responsible

for his own tragically young murder when he ran the fuck away and was chased down, BY THAT BITCH'S OWN TESTIMONY!"

[flvegan]

130. "if the title fits" "that bitch"

Wow. Just, wow.

[Vattel]

96. well-said.

[Ecumenist]

50. and OH YEAH, as his AGE was not in dispute, his ACTIONS WERE JUSTIFIED! He was a CHILD who was

fending off the advances of a strange and creepy weirdo who was actively stalking him, just like he taught in those safety classes. ONE.MORE.THING, TRAYVON IS.NOT.ON.TRIAL. Zimmerman is. You'se confused, dear.

[NaturalHigh]

53. No, Trayvon Martin is not on trial...

but his actions that night directly bear on the case. Age does not automatically justify actions. If he was the first one to make physical contact, then Zimmerman's claim of self defense is very plausible. Just because Zimmerman was following Martin does not justify a physical attack.

Trayvon Martin's age does not mean that he was not capable of attacking in the way that Zimmerman describes. Zimmerman is a dumbass, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he's a murderer.

[Ecumenist]

58. REALLY? TRAYVON RAN THE HELL AWAY- as evidenced by zimmy saying, "He's running. These FUCKING

PUNKS ALWAYS GET AWAY" Or did you forget that part? Zimmy THEN RAN AFTER HIM, AND THE DISPATCHER TOLD THAT SUMBITCH, "are you chasing him?"..<<<YES>>> Was the fucking reply from zimmerman...'wE DON'T NEED YOU TO DO THAT!" WHAT FUCKING PART OF WHY THAT B.A.B.Y FIGHTING FOR HIS LIFE AFTER BEING CONFRONTED FOLLOWING HIS ATTEMPT TO ESCAPE ...BY...R-U-N-N-I-N-G...AWAY-DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?? DAMN!! I'm telling you, it all has to do with the fact that people like you actually meaning that "HE WAS UPPITY & DIDN'T KNOW HIS PLACE? WOW!!!

[NaturalHigh]

63. Seriously? People like me think that Martin was "uppity"?

You are just flat-out delusional.

Apparently you think that George Zimmerman's nose broke itself? I know that Zimmerman lost track of Trayvon Martin at some point (never actually read that Martin "ran" away), but obviously they met up again. Whether that was because Zimmerman tracked him down and found him or because Martin came back to confront Zimmerman, I don't know. I also don't know who made it physical first. Neither do you.

You are also wrong when you say that Zimmerman told the dispatcher that he was "chasing" Martin. The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was "following" Martin. Yes, there is a difference, and you know that as well as I do.

BTW, in addition to your name calling, exaggerations, and accusations, your frequent use of all caps and calling a 17-year-old boy a "baby" really knock several points off your credibility.

[Ecumenist]

70. EVIDENTLY YOU DO, WHAT ELSE EXPLAINS YOU DETERMINATION TO MAKE THIS BABY

and that's what the fuck he was...a child.... responsible for his own murder at the hand of a perfect stranger to him? zimmy wasn't a police officer, he wasn't security and according to national NEIGHBOURHOOD WATCH, HE WASN'T EVEN NEIGHBOURHOOD WATCH! Hell, even the person who put together that FUCKED UP SYG "LAW, said it DID NOT APPLY TO HIM. That man said that, "YOU CANNOT START A CONFRONTATION, PULL A WEAPON,M SHOOT THE OTHER PERSON ONCE YOU ARE C-L-E-A-R-L- LOSING AND CLAIM YOU WERE DOING IN SELF DEFENCE!!" but you know better, right? and as for Tray being a baby, I'm almost 50 and that boy had JUST TUNRED 17, HE.WAS.A....,<<BABY>> as he would have had to petition the court to become "EMANCIPATED", in order to live on his own and conduct any sort of business, sign a binding contract, etc... I know black folks scare alot of people BUT HE WAS A KID MINDING HIS OWN BUSINESS!!!!!

[lumpy]

204. It is troubling that Zimmerman claims in the initial police questioning (on tape) that he was

not following Martin. He was not out on a dark rainy night checking out the stars. That was his first lie to the police.

[Ecumenist]

205. Amen. Lumpy but there are those who do not want to admit that he has lied his ass off

and as we all know, Trayvon wouldn't be dead if he's run faster.

[brett_jv]

163. I'd be keen to hear where in the expert testimony re: Zimmerman's injuries

You heard someone claim that the guy had a broken nose?

From what I've read and heard, nobody has testified that there was any such injury.

You really want to live in a world where grown men can chase down (and what exactly is the effective difference between chasing and following?) 17 year old kids, get in their face, then shoot them in cold blood ... just because said grown man didn't like the 'look' of 'em?

I'll tell you what, if you want to live in a world where what Zimmerman did is just hunky-dory, that's fine, you're entitled to wish for that sort of thing.

But I sure as shit don't want to, and neither do the others here who want to see this murderer locked away. So that is obviously the disconnect here.

[TorchTheWitch]

173. clearly you know next to nothing about this case

You don't even know that Martin ran from Zimmerman? Zimmerman himself said he did on his call to the dispatcher. He exclaims, "Oh shit! He's running!" and as he says this he is getting out of his car and pursuing Martin. He's armed, and he has already been following Martin with his car and now on foot in direct violation of his training both in being armed and pursuing someone.

And how do we know that he chased after Martin? Because several witnesses testified to the running moments before Zimmerman caught up to Martin and confronted him. How do we know that it was Zimmerman running after Martin? Zimmerman himself. He claimed at no time after getting out of his car and shooting Martin did he ever run, and he also claimed that Martin ran which we heard him say on his call to dispatch and heard him immediately get out of his car and pursue him. There's only two things that could have occurred here - either it was Zimmerman running after Martin or Zimmerman was LYING.

Testimony - mostly from his own mouth - shows that Zimmerman lied many times concerning what happened and frequently changed his stories. He also lied on national tv when Hannity asked him if he knew anything about the Stand Your Ground law and he said "No." Yet during the trial we found out that he knew far more about it and everything else about self-defense laws than the average person because he had taken classes about those very things. This is why his professor who taught him this stuff in class testified that he knew all about it because he taught it to him, and Zimmerman was one of his best students who he gave an 'A' to for the course. He LIED on national tv in front of millions of viewers that he knew nothing about the Stand Your Ground law.

He LIED about how he got his injuries and so much so that there is no question that how he claims he got them is just not possible. He claims that he was punched in the face about 35-40 times and had his head slammed into concrete 20 or more times. Yet all he has to show for it are insignificant injuries two doctors testified to including zimmerman's own doctor that that said were insignificant and contrary to how he claimed he got them. We saw photos of those insignificant injuries that show nothing more than a swollen nose with two tiny abrasions on the tip that was the source of the bleeding as he never bled out of his nostrils and two tiny abrasions on his hairless scalp with minor swelling which was gone hours later. Either Zimmerman has a head and face and skin of cast iron or his is a LIAR. The report from the EMS said that his "mucus membranes are normal" - meaning he had no broken capillaries that would cause bleeding from his nostrils. Here is the photo of Zimmerman taken by a police officer at the scene that shows all the blood around his mouth and nose area does not come from his nostrils but from the two abrasions on the tip of his nose...



That small amount of blood is all there was, and it didn't come from his nostrils but the two tiny abrasions on the tip of his nose where that one blood drop is hanging. Though this photo was taken very soon after the arrival of the police most of that small amount of blood on his face has already begun to dry, and had stopped bleeding when EMS cleaned him up shortly after.

Here's his face cleaned of blood only a few hours later at the police station...



Note that almost all the swelling he had at the side of his nose is already gone. Note also the two tiny abrasions on the tip of his nose and another one up high on the bridge of his nose. This is the face of the man who has claimed he was punched in the face 35-40 times. LIAR.

Now here's the photo of the back of his head taken at the police station that show two small lacerations to the back of his head that at least one of the doctors testified is consistent with a single impact (not a slam) to the back of his head on a hard surface with some dried blood...



This is the evidence of insignificant head injury that Zimmerman claims was the result of having his head repeatedly slammed into concrete 20 or more times. LIAR.

This is a photo of his head taken by the first person on the scene immediately following the shooting that was the guy with the flashlight that he took with his own cellphone...

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1079045!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/image.jpg

Note the blood trails. There is no smearing of blood at all, and the blood trails show that when those lacerations occurred Zimmerman immediately got up and placed himself in much the same position he is for this photo to be taken - upright with his head looking downward. This we are to believe occurred because of his head being repeatedly slammed in to concrete 20 or more times when there is no smearing of blood whatsoever and the direction of the blood trails prove he had to have gotten up immediately after his head impacted once with a hard surface and in a position that is the same as the position he's in for the photo to be taken - upright and looking downward. LIAR.

Zimmerman also claimed that his gun was in his waist holster inside his pants as he was lying on the ground on his back with Martin on top of him straddling him with his knees up near Zimmerman's armpits and his thighs pressed against Zimmerman's sides. Zimmerman himself says that Martin became aware of the gun either because he saw it or felt it with his thigh. Zimmerman then goes into the beating story having his head bashed on concrete they're nowhere near given where Martin's body ended up and how Zimmerman says it got there, being punched in the face 35-40 times, with Martin also covering his mouth and bloodied nose with both his hands yet mysteriously not getting a single speck of blood nor single cell of Zimmerman's DNA on his hands all the while Zimmerman claims to be continuously screaming (though he can't explain how he can do that with his mouth and nose covered though he was asked repeatedly) when for no logical reason Martin slides his hand down Zimmerman's chest and side toward where his gun is, Zimmerman becomes in fear of immanent death and whips out his gun and shoots Martin dead.

How is it physically possible that Zimmerman could have gotten to his gun with Martin sitting on top of him with his thighs pressed against his sides and be able to do it so quickly? He can't. He can't because it is a physical impossibility. Once again, Zimmerman is LYING about where that gun was immediately before he shot Martin. It was not physically possible for him to have reached over Martin's leg and under his butt to the gun inside the waistband of his pants because his arms are not two or three times longer than normal, nor is if physically possible for him to have gotten his arm and hand between his body and Martin's leg and butt to get to his gun because his arms, hand and gun are not blade thin either. Zimmerman is LYING about where that gun was or he was LYING about the positions they were in.

This is only a FRACTION of Zimmerman's lies and doesn't even go into his changes in his stories that contradict each other . It just isn't possible with all of these significant LIES to believe that his version of what happened is true. And if he is lying and so significantly then he is GUILTY and knows that he is.

It makes no difference who initiated the physical contact as MARTIN beyond any reasonable doubt had every right to be in fear of this nutter that followed him in his car, pursued him on foot when he tried to run away from him, chased him down and confronted him never saying who he was or why he ran him down to confront him. Martin is ALSO entitled to defend himself, and from the evidence and testimony given he had every reasonable right to.

As to how Zimmerman got the insignificant non-broken nose, if Martin did get a punch in he had every reasonable right to, however, the evidence of Zimmerman's claims as to how he got the insignificant injury to his nose could just as easily have come from Zimmerman's shooting him with either the gun recoiling into his own face thereby forcing his own head back onto a hard surface or having shot Martin, Martin fell forward onto Zimmerman forcing the gun in Zimmerman's hand to smack his own face thereby forcing his own head back onto a hard surface.

Remember those two small abrasions on the tip of his nose that was doing all of the bleeding and the one up on the bridge of his nose? The sharp hard edges of his own gun. The distance that the two of them were parted had they been in the position that Zimmerman claims they were in would have allowed him just enough space between them for an almost contact wound to Martin's chest with Zimmerman holding his gun at his chest at about a 90 degree angle of his arm. At that angle Zimmerman would not have been able to very well control the recoil of the gun, and the gun he had is reported to have a powerful recoil. Hold out your own arm as he must have had his with the elbow bent at roughly a 90 degree angle, bend your arm at the elbow and your own hand with something like a small gun in it smacks you right in the nose. If it wasn't the recoil of the gun Martin falling on top of Zimmerman would have forced Zimmerman's arm to bend and smack his own nose the same way. And in either of these scenarios smacking his own nose would also have caused his head to impact a hard surface. Remember those blood trails from the two little lacerations to the back of his head? Either of these two scenarios make it even more plausible that just after he whacked his own head he got out from under Martin's body, flipped him over and sat on top of him straddling him in the same upright position with his head tilted downward to create those blood trails that go in the direction they do and with no smearing of the blood.

[yardwork]

176. I wish you were on the prosecution team

Can you email this summary to the prosecution? They need to lay this out for the jury.

[TorchTheWitch]

179. how does one do that?

I'd feel really weird doing that. If they haven't figured this out long since on their own they're too stupid to be attorneys at all much less get paid for it.

[yardwork]

180. The county probably has a web page

Prosecuting attorneys are public servants. They're elected (lots of potential for political influence). They aren't allowed to hire astro-turfers, pr firms, and other kinds of assistance. We can be their expert assistance.

Somebody posted here on DU that the sent an idea to the defense, who thanked them.

[lumpy]

206. I like the conclusions that individuals come up with; people who have taken the time and have

used logic and common sense to come to something closer to the truth. It looks that you are one of those. The jury does not have that advantage unfortunately. The stress of being on a jury is grinding at best and the sway that the lawyers throw at them is tough.

Thank you for your lucid summation. It was gratifying to see logic at work.

[Llewlladdwr]

74. A 17 year old is now a "baby"?

That is some fucked up reasoning there. Guess that makes a 25 year old a toddler....

[Ecumenist]

78. Actually, MOST people like me woould consider the 17year a "Baby" after all, what the hell has he do

besides going to HIGHSCHOOL? A 25 year old is a YOUNG ADULT. and you would know that if you've EVER spoken to black folks who families hail from the south. so, your stupid statement is FUCKED UP!

[Llewlladdwr]

84. Easy there Ecumenist...

As a matter of fact, I have spoken to Black folks who's families hailed from the South, seeing as how that's where I'm from also. And I don't recall a single one of them introducing their 17 year old offspring as an actual baby, although some people do refer to a youngest child as the 'baby' of the family. Maybe that's what confused you.

Capital letters and hysterics are no way to argue a point....

[Ecumenist]

86. Sure you have and let me guess, you can't be racist because you have "black friends"..right?Don't

pee on my leg and tell me it's raining. I'm not stupid. I AM BLACK by the way and KNOW HOW BLACK FOLKS TALK!! LOL!! WOW!

[Llewlladdwr]

87. Nope, didn't claim to have Black friends, just that I've talked to Black people.

You know what, I'm already bored with this. You have a nice night there Ecumenist, enjoy your hyperbole and keep those capital letters coming! You're winnin' hearts and minds!

[Ecumenist]

107. The only people I'm irritating are racists, covert and overt. Have a NICE life

[lumpy]

210. Boyteens are closer to being Babys than being adults. I outta know, 3 boys who are now 40 plus.

n

[uponit7771]

226. +1

[anneboleyn]

100. What if he had been a teen girl?

[Llewlladdwr]

113. I don't understand the question.

Do you consider 17 year old females to be "babies"? I don't.

[anneboleyn]

143. There is a major difference between a 30 year old

and a seventeen year old. Think about it. It is obvious. Martin was a minor being followed by an adult. If he had been a girl of this age being followed by an adult male she did not know we would not be assuming that she somehow "deserved" to be shot because she tried to fight back. The issue is that Martin's status as a minor is not being emphasized, and he is interpreted as an aggressor in the situation.

[lumpy]

208. What is the point, baby ?

n

[lumpy]

158. I don't believe Zimmerman's account at all. I believe Martin bloodied Zimmerman's

nose while Zimmerman had Martin pinned on the ground, Martin fighting for his life and screaming for his life when he saw Zimmerman hovering over him with a gun.
I believe the witness who testified that after the shot, the shooter got up from hovering over the body holding his head from getting bopped on the nose by Martin.
Zimmerman's account of the encounter doesn't make sense. That Martin, jumped out of the bushes, approached Zimmerman and out of the blue slugged Zimmerman on the nose, threw Zimmerman, an adult heavyweight, to the ground, straddled him and proceded to bash Zimmerman's head 20 or more times on the sidewalk while Zimmerman remained helpless on his back. Maybe Zimmerman got those 2 small scratches on his head from the bushes/tree or from his own fingernails or scratching his head on his car doorframe while in his eagerness to continue his pursuit of Martin. Who knows? He had no concussion or indication of having had scull damage at all after 20 or more bashes to the sidewalk. Then somehow after the attack Zimmerman managed to overcome Martin's devistating and brutal on slaught and wrestle Martin to the ground.

[Azathoth]

52. Yup, that's what we teach our kids: if someone is creepy, confront them and swing on them

Don't, under any circumstances, run the two hundred feet to safety, especially if you have a head start.

[Ecumenist]

61. CAN YOU READ??!! HE DID RUN THE FUCK AWAY AND FOR THE LAST TIME, Zimmy is recorded

saying, "HE'S RUNNING! THESE FUCKING PUNKS A-L-W-A-Y-S GET AWAY!" REALLY? I ge he should have dropped to the ground and started to scream, "YASSUH MASSA, I'SE SORRY...DON'T KILL DIS PO' BOY. IF'N I'SE KNOWED IT WUZ YU, I'SE STOP RAHTE AWAY!" iS that what he should have done for you to see the craziness of what you and a twisted lot of you are saying? REALLY? You need help, cuz, Damn!

[Azathoth]

66. So what happened? Zimmerman suddenly turned into the freakin Flash?

And managed to chase down a 17 year old football player who was running home and had at least a 60 second head start?

[Ecumenist]

71. NOPE...simply this, ZIMMY KNEW THE NEIGHBOURHOOD....THIS AIN'T ROCKET SCIENCE. He was his own self

appointed vigilante and sergeant porkchop. He walked his dog in the streets and had lived there for quite a while but TRAYVON was visiting his DADDY @ his Fiancee's home. WOW!! and ya'll wonder why we see more than a tinge of racism just under the surface of alot of this conversations.

[freshwest]

83. Not too damn far under the surface when people seek anything to try Trayvon for murder.

Zimmerman was arresting, trying and executing for a capital crime.

Trayvon was guilty! Of being alive while black!

Add the fact the Skittles Trayvon had in his hand were for his toddler brother who will have to live with this for the rest of his life.

What should the little kid expect?

Zimmerman is a hero to some for that reason.

He's scum to me for that reason.

[JimDandy]

108. Trayvon last played football at age 13,

in a community rec league with other neighborhood kids. That was 4 years before he was killed. His autopsy report described him as a narrow-framed (his friends called him 'Slimm'), 5 ft/10.5 in., 158 lb, 17 year-old male.

At the time he shot Trayvon, Zimmerman had been training 3 times a week, for the past year and a half, at a gym billed as the best MMA fight gym in the world. With that training, Zimmerman's stamina and lung capacity would have been superior to Trayvon's in a chase. Zimmy at 5 ft/7.5 in and 196 lbs was at a fighting weight 4 classes above Trayvon. With that kind of advantage, even his fight gym would never have allowed him to fight someone of Trayvon's build in a sanctioned bout.

Zimmerman was a fit fighting machine, who has been described as 'buff' and imposing-looking the night he shot Trayvon. (Just look at the many photos of him that night and videos of him the next day.) With the close-shaven head, goatee and build he had that night, he looked menacing to me.

Zimmerman saw Trayvon up close and would have immediately sized up Trayvon as being someone he could take down-that's why he wasn't deterred in going after Trayvon. And Trayvon likewise saw him, a creepy menacing guy...and ran!

There was no 60 second heard start. Zimmerman got out of his vehicle immediately (you can hear him do that on the tape)and chased him down. His whole 'looking for an address' schtick is BS and obvious to everyone even his supporters. Zimmy sensed he was very close...(Remember, Zim didn't want the suspect [Trayvon] to overhear him giving the non-emergency operator his address) and Trayvon sensed Zimmy was close... and ran around the back, so he wouldn't lead that 'creepy-ass cracker' straight to his address...his house.

7:09 to 7:16--It was all the time in the world...literally. Trayvon never knew he had seven minutes left to live on this earth.

[Azathoth]

116. "Zimmerman was a fit fighting machine"

Man, you had me up to that point. The guy people have been mocking for a year as a "porkchop" is now a freaking Green Beret

[Ecumenist]

136. Evidently, you don't understand what MY use of Sergeant Porkchop means- It DOES NOT

apply to his physical build, it has applies to his "Wannabee Cop" Mentality. I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY with those who point out his physical conditioning. Does it hurt much to contort into a human pretzel?

[Azathoth]

139. LOL the guy is 5'7" and he weighed over 200lbs the night of the shooting

Either he was body-builder class, or he was clinically obese. Everyone, even his actual supporters, have spent the last year ripping on him for his weight. The dude was panting while he was on the phone with 911.

Now it turns out he took MMA cardio classes, which is like taking Tae Bo or cardio kickboxing, and all of a sudden he's an elite "fighting machine" from the country's "top fighting gym" whose "lung capacity and stamina" could easily have outmatched those of a taller, more athletic, non-obese seventeen year old.

Of course, none one of that matters anyway because Secret Agent Trayvon wasn't actually trying to run for safety, but was instead on a mission to lead Zimmerman *away* from his house, a plan which involved running around the side of the end house and then apparently just waiting there near the sidewalk...

[JimDandy]

140. That image of

'porkchop'was carefully crafted over the past year by his defense team and he was literally fattened up to fit that image for his 'big reveal' just prior to trial.

My description of 'fit fighting machine' evokes a truer image of what Zimmerman was physically capable of, than his defense teams false 'porkchop' image (again, photos of him that night don't lie).

And, *remember, Zimmerman and his defense team deliberately put out to the public the false info (and a video) that it was Trayvon that had MMA skills, while simultaneously hiding from the public, police and prosecutor the fact that it was in fact Zimmerman who had been trained in MMA fighting. They weren't the only ones working to hide that info. Zimmerman's wife, his father, the judge (who gave interviews and wrote a pre-trial book about the shooting), his brother (who built a website and gave interviews defending him) and mother had to have known about it also, yet they did not mention his MMA knowledge in any of their innumerable accounts in the media, on the website or comment boards all over the web.

Your convenient ignoring of the info about Zimmy's MMA training in your response to me undoubtedly won't be the reaction of the jurors...and they are who counts.

*I've said 'remember' in this post and the previous to give you the benefit of the doubt that you weren't being deliberately obtuse.

[Azathoth]

142. Actually, the "porkchop" image comes from the fact that he was clinically obese

Last edited Mon Jul 8, 2013, 03:29 AM - Edit history (2)

on the night of the shooting. The media made sure to hype that fact when the story was originally being framed as a giant dude cornering a little boy.

Second, Zimmerman apparently took MMA cardio classes, which is like taking cardio kickboxing. There is no evidence he ever sparred in his life (don't you think the prosecution might have brought that up?), and MMA sites are claiming the gym he attended, far from being the "top fighting gym," doesn't offer actual MMA fight training.* Claiming that he was a "fit fighting machine" is beyond fatuous. You took a fragment of testimony and spun it into an unsubstantiated theory of comical proportion.

*On edit: this claim appears to be traceable back to a single MMA fighter/poster who claims to know the gym. I don't know if it is true or not.

[Ecumenist]

145. Oh yeah? I have been using this term SERGEANT PORKCHOP ever since I moved in with my husband

to describe the Wannabe rentacops Paladin Security the HOA hired but never mind that, you know me better than I know myself. Please proceed.

[Azathoth]

147. lol, man you just want to fight about everything

Even points I'm not actually making.

I like you

[Ecumenist]

224. Yeah, you're a dream come true too. BTW, I'm Female....

just sayin'.

[tblue37]

151. In the first pics we saw of Zimmermann, he was obese. In the pics we

finally saw of him that were from that night, he was definitely buff.

In the courtroom now, he is much heavier and in worse shape than he was that night, though perhaps not as overweight as he was in the first pictures we saw of him.

[brett_jv]

165. Dude hardly looks like a pork chop in the pics of his first court appearance ...

I'd go as far as to say he looks like a pretty tough dude.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/new-photo-support-self-defense-claim-trayvon-martin-killer-george-zimmerman-article-1.1212539

And the injuries look pretty friggin minor ... one or two pops to the face at most. And that's NOT a broken nose. It appears there was a scuffle, but ... I'm sorry, a person shouldn't be able to SHOOT a 17 y.o. kid that they've gone out of there way to follow ... just on the grounds that they received the injuries pictured in this photo. It's fucking RIDICULOUS to claim that what we KNOW this man did ... is okay, and shouldn't be prosecuted.

RIDICULOUS.

[tblue37]

166. Those pics are from the night of the shooting. At THAT time he was buff.

But before those pics were available, all we saw were much older pics that showed an obese Zimmermann.

And now, during the trial, he is heavy and out of shape again.

[hfojvt]

55. then, he, and you apparently, have been taught wrong

because the FIRST thing you do - is RUN.

That is the primary defense tool - your feet.

Trayvon had a one minute head start - at least. If he had run home, we would not be having this argument.

And the second thing you do - is RUN. Okay, swing and pop somebody in the nose - then RUN.

You get any time of momentary advantage and you use it - to get the hell out of there, babe.* RUN.

What you absolutely do not do, is use a momentary advantage to start beating the crap out of them. And you know why?

Because that gives them an opportunity to turn the tables. An opportunity that they would not have - if you RAN. "He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day"


*"get the hell out of there, babe, run!" is from the awesome Dean Koontz book "The Bad Place"


p.s and as a 17 year old, Trayvon was as big as I am - a 51 year old man. I work a physical job and would still think four or five times before taking on a kid that size. I would be more likely to take my own advice - and RUN before wading into a probable a$$-kicking at the hands of a violent teen.

[Ecumenist]

56. If you'll remeber, HE DID FUCKING RUN!! Remember what zimmy said, "HE'S RUNNING, THESE FUCKING

PUNKS, (i HEARD SOMETHING ELSE BUT i'LL GO WITH WHAT OTHERS HEARD), THEY ALWAYS GET AWAY!" That's when he got the fuck out of his vehicle and starting running, looking for him. REALLY? Are you being purposely obtuse? HE RAN THE FUCK AWAY and zimmy th giggling murderer ran to look for him! HE WAS DOING HIS MUTHAFUCKING JOB WHEN HE HIT THAT MORON AFTER HE CAUGHT UP WITH HIM!!! HE WAS IN THE RIGHT!!!!!! He was a CHILD who ran teh fuck away and it was ZIMMY who ran to catch up with him. PERIOD.

[Azathoth]

60. Yeah, we know, Z chased down a 17 year old football player with a 60 second head start

partially while talking to a 911 dispatcher. And he managed to catch him 20 feet from the place where he first lost sight of him from his car.

[Ecumenist]

65. right, then how come zimmy was running after him? Are you actually trying to tell me that I am

lying? There's something wrong with you and as my mother sagely taught me- don't argue with moronic viewpoints, you'll only get a headache & hoarse. And guess what, SHE.WAS.RIGHT!!!

[Azathoth]

68. Say wha?

I'm saying there is overwhelming evidence that Trayvon did not attempt to run home. He started to run and then stopped; either he turned back or else simply allowed Zimmerman to catch up.

[Ecumenist]

73. Oh, so now he "ALLOWED" Zimmerman to catch up when in the first FUCKING place, He should have

left that poor boy alone.....Trayvon is dead because, as everyone knows, he was budding thug/crackdealer/pitbull fighter AND he got what he deserved. People of colour are superhuman and become dangerous @ 13 years ole. Hell, we should be locked up @ 15, by our mindset.

[Azathoth]

82. Yes, "allowed"

Had Trayvon followed the advice most people give their children -- "Run. Get to safety as quickly as possible." -- there is no way Zimmerman would have been able to make physical contact with him. He would have been home by the time Zimmerman even made it to the sidewalk between the rowhouses. Instead, he got into a fight with Zimmerman only 20 or so feet from where Zimmerman lost sight of him minutes before, which means in those intervening minutes he managed to travel a net distance of almost *zero*.

So the answer to you OP is simple: no, Trayvon did not do what most people teach our kids to do.

[Ecumenist]

85. BULLSHIT... He was walking back to the house where he was BABYSITTING a younger child

and thought he had lost him, as EVIDENCED BY "EARWITNESS" testimony to RACHEL JEANTEL, you know, the one who was on the phone with him during this crap. THE ONE WHO HEARD TRAYVON FiRST ASK ZIMMY, (after he thought he'd evaded the "CREEPY ASS CRACKA&quot VERBATIM-"WHY ARE YOU FOLLOWING ME FOR?" She them said that she heard Trayvon yelling, "GET OFF OF ME, GET OFF OF ME, this was before the phone went dead...
But you, oh omnipotent one say that he didn't do what he should have done. Really? You've earned a place of imfamy onmy ignore list... because the stupidity makes me itch.

[Azathoth]

91. OK, so he didn't run to safety

He merely ran around the corner of the rowhouses, where it happened to be very dark, then stopped running. Not exactly the advice most people give their kids.

But it gets worse, because several minutes later he got into a fight only tens of feet from that spot, which means he managed to travel a net distance of almost zero in the intervening time. His house was only about 115 - 120 yards away. Had he been walking at an average pace for a young adult, which according to a quick Google search is roughly 5 feet per second*, he would have been home in just over a minute, before Zimmerman even got off the phone with the dispatcher. So clearly, if he was "walking" at any kind of speed during that time, it wasn't home.


*http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=1005112200029

[Ecumenist]

97. Oh so you got from YAHOO ANSWERS, REALLY? Yeah, that's COMPLETELY

makes your point... What it comes down to is this...ZIMMY had NO RIGHT to detain, chase, accost or any other offensive behaviour you can think of to apply to what happened that night. and since you seem so intent on JUSTIFYING what zimmy did, WHY DIDN'T HE JUST TELL TRAYVON WHO HE WAS AND ASK HIM IF HE COULD HELP HIM OUT? If he was actually the Neighbourhood Watch, ( AND HE WASN'T!!!), why couldn't he explain who he was and he wanted to ask any questions, it would have been SO VERY EASY to explain that they're on edge because there have been a spate of burglaries in the area recently and they just want to try to prevent any future property crimes?
What? whatcha say? Take your time and don't worry, I'll wait.

[Azathoth]

103. lol, you're not even attempting to respond to posts

[Vattel]

126. Zimmerman says that Martin came up to me and asked him if he had a problem.

If that is true then I can't really blame Zimmerman for saying no in response. Of course, you are certain that Martin did not approach Zimmerman and assault him. Me, I am a just farm boy who admits that he doesn't know what happened out there.

[Ecumenist]

133. Here's the reason that I DO NOT BELIEVE what zimmy has said because he's a proven

LIAR and NOTHING he says can be believed ESPECIALLY considering that those bushes he claimed out of, didn't exist. His story has changed more than the TV in General population. To be frank, It's physically impossible to be smothered by trayvon's hands covering both his nose and mouth, WHILE simultaneously, BASHING HIS HEAD INTO THE CONCRETE, (but leaving no blood on said concrete) and using his 5th hand, reaching for a HOLSTERED gun, HE.COULD NOT HAVE SEEN & would have been beneath one of his knees as he straddling him and he would have had to REACH ACROSS zimmy's chest to reach said HOLSTERED gun because he was RIGHT HAND DOMINANT. He evidently was a great fan of Jimmy Cagney, Edward G Robinson & George Raft ..."YOU GOT ME!" REALLY but you just keep making excuses for and supporting a childkiller!

[tblue37]

153. And don't forget, the whole time he is being smothered by

Trayvon's 5th (or is it his 6th?) hand over his mouth and nose, poor little Zimmermann is also screaming for help, since he claims that is his own voice screaming for help on the tape.

[yardwork]

89. We have no evidence that Martin didn't run. Maybe Zimmerman circled around and trapped him.

Zimmerman lied about having his head bashed on the concrete 20 or 30 times. He and his wife lied to the judge about money and his passport. Zimmerman lied about a lot of things.

[Azathoth]

93. Actually, we have evidence that he *did* run

Which makes the fact that he somehow managed to get into a fight with Zimmerman, who was at least a minute or two behind him, very curious.

Yes, Zimmerman did lie about money and his passport, and he promptly got caught by the authorities. Not exactly the work of a brilliant Bond villain super-liar.

[yardwork]

95. So Zimmerman is a bad liar and that means he's credible?

I am rolling on the floor laughing at your conclusion that Zimmerman being a bad liar means he wasn't really lying at all.

[Azathoth]

101. Laughing is a poor substitute for thinking

If Zimmerman is a poor liar, that makes it even harder to believe he could pull off the kind of massive fabrication some around here want to accuse him of. The guy manages to concoct a detailed story that confounds everyone only minutes after the shooting -- and if some people around here are to be believed, manages to do a lot more as well, like break his own nose -- but then suddenly he can't figure out how to lie about money that he's publicly solicited on the freakin internet?

[Ecumenist]

111. Actually, He DID lie about the money and was CAUGHT giving juvenile cryptic info

to his idiotic wife. Remember, the day he told the court that he was broke, HE KNEW there was almost 250K in an account for him. NEXT...

[yardwork]

112. Zimmy was on the phone with somebody right after he murdered Martin.

Who was he talking to? Not 911. Not his wife. Daddy? Uncle Sheriff?

Zimmerman emerges from his phone conversation near the body of the child he just murdered with a bloody nose. Health care providers later diagnose his injuries as two little scratches on his nose and two slightly bigger scratches on the back of his head. None of those scratches kept Zimmerman from being interviewed by the police for hours that night.

His story that his head was bashed against the concrete sidewalk "20-30 times" was stupid and easily proven false. That story took weeks to begin circulating on white supremacist sites. That's where I saw it first.

[brett_jv]

167. Great story ...

Except that NOBODY has testified that his nose was broken, and the picks from that night don't show a dude with a broken nose either. But even if he DID have one ... you don't get to shoot people that you follow in the night and confront, for NO REASON other than them looking 'out of place' in 'your neighborhood', and who turn around kick your ass for it (although, like everyone has pointed out ... his injuries were much more minor than what he's claimed).

Just like you can't start a bar fight, and then when the person responds by clocking you a good one, pull out your piece and gun 'em down in cold blood.

[Ecumenist]

102. Yep, Yardwork, that's it in a nutshell. Frankly, my own opinion about zimmy is that being a bad

liar doesn't make him innocent, (which in itself is so convoluted, it's ridiculous) but that he's stupid. But hey, that's just my humble opinion. It's just THINLY veiled racism, Yardwork because as the saying goes, if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck and it's ass is watertight, IT'S NOT A FUCKING GORILLA! Another "Du'er" Actually used YAHOO ANSWERS to show me how Trayvon had to have purposely ALLOWED zimmy to catch up with him. Hence, a 17 year old on the phone is COMPLETELY responsible for his murder.

[yardwork]

117. That's it.

[hfojvt]

67. Zimmerman was on the phone when he got out of his car and followed Trayvon

he was not running. Not unless he is an Olympic athlete, because he is not breathing hard enough to be running. So okay, Trayvon is ahead of Zimmerman, and running while Zimmerman walks, and then Zimmerman says "I don't know where he is" and is on the phone with dispatch for another minute. At top speed, I can run over 300 yards in a minute. Jogging would be about 150 yards. Zimmerman does not even know which way he went. If he keeps running, Trayvon is home free, he passes go, and collects $200.

If Zimmerman runs really fast and makes up those 150 yards, then Trayvon has the option to run again - racing against an opponent who is winded, because he just sprinted 150 yards.

I don't see a scenario where Trayvon is not capable of getting away.

[Ecumenist]

72. ZIMMY WAS FAMILIAR WITH THE NEIGHBOURHOOD!! Trayvon was visiting. PERIOD.

Fat Fuck didn't have to be the 6 millions dollar man because he would know the shortcuts. etc. Begone

[Vattel]

105. There is no short cut from where Zimmerman was parked that would

have enabled Zimmerman to cut Martin off. Martin could have got home easy if he had walked directly there. Your best bet is to claim that Martin got lost and somehow ended up close to where he started when he was running. But that would be pretty desperate.

[Ecumenist]

109. FIRST OFF ALL, do you live there? Cuz I wasn't aware that you knew exactly where zimmy

was parked and where Trayvon was, (we only have zimmy's EVERCHANGING word for it). He was walking home at after dusk with skittles and Arizona Tea because not only was he casing the joint but was PURPOSELY allowing zimmy to catch up, as another FUCKED UP du'ER said. Yep, that makes sense.

[Vattel]

122. So you are saying that the location of Zimmerman's car at the time of the killing is in doubt?

That the police didn't note its location?

Maybe, but I doubt it.

[Ecumenist]

127. and based on was a PROVEN liar has said, you knew purport to know where EVERYTHING happened

and in what sequence. Yeah, you knew where EVERYTHING & EVERYONE was and Inspector Vattel has determined that that boy is responsible for his own murder.

[Vattel]

131. Um, the location of the killing, Zimmerman's car, and Martin's father's house is

not information I got from Zimmerman. And I didn't say that Martin was responsible for his own murder. I don't pretend to know what happened that night.

[Little Star]

77. I heard that Trayvon didn't want to lead the creepy ass cracker back to...

where he was babysitting a younger child.

[Ecumenist]

79. AMEN!!! LIttle Star but "SOME FOLKS" REFUSE to see what the facts are if they don't jibe with their

own worldview.

[brett_jv]

168. Simple explanation for ALL this ...

Is that the kid tried to hide, instead of running.

And in any case, HE IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR 'FAILING' to f***ing RUN?!?

Only an idiot would try to pin the death on a 17 year old for his failing to run away back to the house where he was babysitting a small child.

[uppityperson]

80. Indeed. You have made your viewpoint VERY clear. Trayvon's death was his own fault.

[yardwork]

88. Martin did not have an obligation to run anywhere. He was in his father's neighborhood at 7 pm.

If Florida's Stand Your Ground law means anything, it means that it was Martin who had a right to stand his ground even if he was being chased by a murderous bully.

In fact, we don't know if Martin ran or not. Maybe he was confused in the darkness. After all, it was Zimmerman's turf. Martin hadn't lived there long.

Whether Martin was capable of getting away or not is immaterial. Zimmerman did not need to shoot and kill the kid.

[Ecumenist]

118. Yard, that's exactly what I was saying. zimmy was familiar with the neighbourhood but Trayvon

wasn't and being panicked, scared, ( something that was established during Rachel Jeantel's tesitmony), and if was after sunset, it would have been VERY easy for him to get turned around.

[brett_jv]

169. He probably just chose to HIDE instead of run ...

Pretty much explains the whole 'why didn't he just run' question. He simply thought hiding made more sense at the time.

It's not HIS responsibility to 'make the right choice' there.

Zimmerman's responsible for this child's death. He's a friggin murdering racist pig, simple as that.

[tavalon]

172. Stop with the caps, already, we get that you're angry about Trayvon's murder

Many, if not most, here on DU are. And you are alienating people with your all caps yelling sprees. You do know that all caps is equivalent to yelling, right?

[Ecumenist]

181. Absolutely Tavalon. If you read the entire thread, you'll see that there were two DU'ers

who were harranguing me and asking proposing the same fucking excuse for zim-zim's murdering that baby and claiming that he never ran, which he did. I got so fucking sick of the shit they were shoveling fast and loose. I got pissed and they were twisting in contortions with their stupid defences of zimmy.

[tavalon]

219. Yeah, there is going to be hell to pay if that asshole gets off

I know Sanford. I used to ride the train through all of those little towns on the Seaboard. This has enraged the nation. If this thug gets off, things are going to get ugly. The Rodney King riot comes to mind.

[Ecumenist]

220. WOw, think so? I know that the vast majority of people I know are just sick to think that he

might get off but NOT one of them think that it makes sense to riot if he does...AND I'm from LA...

[tavalon]

222. I don't know about full on riot but

I'm on the West coast too and people of all colors are pretty damn pissed about this.

[Ecumenist]

223. Oh yeah, I have to agree with you there. I'm still on the West Coast in the North State--

The Capital. the VAST majority of people I know, (white, Black Green & plaid), believe that he MURDERED an innocent teenaged Boy and my husband believes that no matter what happens with this trial, zippy is marked. He believes that someone in the near future will take him out because of the fear that he'll shoot them in the same manner he murdered Trayvon.

[tavalon]

225. Honestly, that's what I think, too

But I think it will be revenge for Trayvon. I went to a convention just after the incident and people everywhere were wearing hoodies (not so strange in Seattle) with "Remember Trayvon" pinned to the backs. I stopped counting at a hundred various versions of the same. And the people wearing them were the same mix of race that we are blessed with here. People were furious and when I mention the trial, the same burning anger shows.

People know. Now, whether the justice system will get it right, I don't know. Heck, If Kaeto Kaelin (sp?) is to be believed, his boss really did kill his ex wife. So, if that's true, justice didn't get it right there and we all know that the justice system gets it wrong, hopefully rarely, but?

[tavalon]

171. How does one outrun a bullet?

I'm not saying that's how it came down, it didn't, but running wouldn't work if someone shoots at you.

[lumpy]

213. Trayvon was a tall slender if not skinny teen age kid. There is a world of difference between

a tall slender, skinny kid not fully developed into an adult man. He was not a big man in the sense
that you try to present him as though he was a body builder teenager. A 51 year old man who works physical labor who might fear a skinny teenager needs to work a liitle harder.

[Ninga]

57. Yes....

[Skip Intro]

76. I stopped reading at "CRACKAS included"

Fuck hypocritical racist bullshit.

[Ecumenist]

81. Then apparently, the TRIAL AND TESTIMONY IS HYPOCRITICAL RACIST BULLSHIT because that was

what was the testimony of Trayvon's description of zimmy ACCORDING TO RACHEL JEANTEL. and guess what, my heart bleeds that you didn't read what I wrote.. Those who know me, (I've been here 9 years), know I'm not a racist.....Do you HONESTLY think I care what you think about me and my recitation of court testimony?

[Llewlladdwr]

90. So one thing I've never understood about the Martin shooting...

How come Martin didn't call 911? We know he had a working phone. Why would he not call for help if he thought he was in danger?

[Ecumenist]

94. He was a recently 17 YEAR OLD BABY, a boy who doesn't think like you , Me or other adults

I don't think he realised the danger he was in until it was too late. Do you realise how many of us have been followed, stared down, even had police called on us because we were doing what millions of Americans do everyday?
When I was 18, we were moving into our newly completed house and I was taking a box into the house. This nut actually drove by slowly and then went home to CALL THE POLICE because, as she put it, "n#ggers are moving things into a nice house" My brother was actually just pulling up in front of HIS OWN HOUSE when a newly minted COP, ( he was a rookie), HAULED him out of his car at GUNPOINT! He later claimed that Adam fit the description of a fugitive in the area. We later found out that said fugitive was about 7 inches taller, 70 lbs heavier, 40 shades lighter and ALOT more ITALIAN than him. My father was arrested AT GUNPOINT in the early 70's because...you guessed it, he supposedly fit the description of a robber. turned out that my father was MUCH darker, MUCH taller, (almost a full foot) and was a completely different build, he's an ectomorph and the criminal was almost as wide as he was tall. My father at the time had a full head of hair and this cat was a Qball...
I could go on & on & On with story after story but I suspect that Tray wasn't aware how much danger he was in before it was too late.

[Auntie Bush]

99. Maybe he didn't have time.

[Llewlladdwr]

115. He had time to call Rachel Jenteal.

Maybe if he had called 911 instead the emergency operator could have defused the situation with Zimmerman, who was on the line with police dispatch at the time.

[yardwork]

119. He was already on the phone with his friend when Zimmerman approached him and murdered him.

They had been talking on the phone for a while.

[Llewlladdwr]

123. Martin had time to describe the situation to Jenteal.

Had he hung up and done so to a 911 operator instead he might still be alive.

[brett_jv]

170. Well, sure ...

Obviously, then, it's Travon's fault then that he's dead. Shit, dude didn't even call 911. Zimmerman's off the hook!!!

Everyone knows that it's only a crime if 911 is called :rolleyes:

[yardwork]

175. Zimmerman would have killed him anyway

Being on the phone with 911 doesn't give you a magic force field.

[lumpy]

214. Well for one reason or another he didn't call 911. Why do YOU think he didn't call 911?

Too late now isn't it. Why didn't Zimmerman stay with his truck until police arrived. Too late now.

[Ecumenist]

121. WOW REALLY? Pat attention, HE WAS ON THE PHONE HER whe zimmy showed up...

Try again.

[Auntie Bush]

144. He didn't call Rachael, he had been on the line with her for a long time when the incident happened.

[Hoyt]

104. Maybe he figured there might be another bigot on the switchboard, thus a

waste of precious time. That area doesn't sound minority friendly to me.

[Llewlladdwr]

120. Blacks make up 30% of Sanford's population.

I find it difficult to believe that there are not Black police officers as well as dispatchers on the Sanford police force.

[Ecumenist]

124. AND??!! So you do realise that many places in the deep south have higher numbers of blacks

than Sanford and YET that in itself wasn't enough to guarantee justice ...So the fact that 30% of te population is black used to explain why Trayvon did NOT have die, (cuz he coulds, woulds, shoulda, called 911 and ask for a black officer...I guess), is absurd beyond belief.

[Hoyt]

138. You have a lot to learm abput race relations . . . . assuming ypu really give a dang.

[yardwork]

177. And very few of them live in that condo community

The town has a long history of severe segregation and deep-seated racism.

[Conium]

125. Neighborhood watch

Why would a neighborhood watcher even need a firearm? A phone should be enough. Did Zimmerman plan on murdering someone that night?

[Llewlladdwr]

128. If he did, why would he have called 911?

That's another thing I don't understand about this case. If Zimmerman was out to hunt down and kill a person why in the world would he call the police and have them in route *before* committing the murder? That would be risking the police arriving either before he finished the deed or during. It just doesn't make any sense....

[Ecumenist]

137. He was setting up jis SYG defense. The same thing happened in Florida with another murderer

who killed his neighbour, ( he was black too) for playing music too loud. That why he phoned the cops.

[yardwork]

183. He didn't call 911. He called a non-emergency number he had called many times before

to report "suspects" (always black males) and other "bad things" like people leaving their garage doors open. Zimmerman had been cruising around the condo community for several years, packing his concealed (or not so concealed) weapon, itching for a chance to prove that he was a big strong defender of Justice and the American Way.

[lumpy]

215. Most likely he wanted to show the police that he was on the job ; his prime

ambition was to become a cop. Not too many people believe he was out to kill anyone; obviously he wanted to capture a person he thought was up to no good and things got out of hand. He was met with resistance, became fearful and finished his adventure with a shot to the heart.
After all, he had called the police on numerous occasions reporting suspicious people in the complex and was mistaken in his judgement. Quite likely he wanted to prove he was not wrong about his suspicions and was out to prove his worth as a law enforcer.

[lumpy]

216. He wasn't required to carry a gun according to his terms of employment.

As far as I know, I don't believe he was planning a murder. I believe he wanted to prove that he could capture a criminal like super cop hero.

[Just Saying]

132. Thank you for this rant!

I feel the same way and I'm so tired of those who choose to defend him because they just aren't saying what they really mean.

[Ecumenist]

134. Thank you, Just Saying Its just plain old common sense.... and a belated yet hearty welcome to DU

Right glad tameetcha!

[Just Saying]

159. Thanks

And same here!

[Jasana]

135. I believe in gun rights but you don't get to stalk then chase down and confront...

Last edited Mon Jul 8, 2013, 12:32 AM - Edit history (1)

someone simply because you're unfamiliar with them. What kind of precedent would that set?

And the first thing kids are taught is "Don't talk to strangers." It's rule number one. The 2nd rule is "Run." Martin did that and Zimmerman still persisted by getting out of his truck despite being told by 911 not to. If he confronted me that way, he'd get more than a punch on the nose. Zimmerman is as guilty as sin.

[anneboleyn]

141. "But I would have outrun Ted Bundy"

I agree with your post, and I think the point is a very valid and important one! I honestly wish that the prosecution had discussed this more emphatically during the trial. I have noticed also that many people have been saying that they would have outrun Zimmerman or otherwise been able to think perfectly reasonably in the situation and not made the same choices as Martin (not in fact likely in the moment). It reminds me of people who claim that THEY would have safely escaped a dangerous, unpredictable situation -- (like the clutches of Bundy) because THEY would have made every correct choice while the unfortunate others did not. It is a kind of distancing mechanism that seems very unnecessary in this case. We are talking about a minor boy who did just we tell minors to do if an adult that they do not know is following them in a way that might seem menacing.

[tblue37]

146. Excellent. One of the very BEST posts ever on this

case. K & R.

[Maraya1969]

148. Thank you! I had never heard this explained the way you have. It makes complete sence.

If Zimmerman gets off they are going to have to change self defense classes to include: Fight and kick and do everything you can to get away but if they guy has a gun and kills you with it he will be within his rights.

Or: Fight and kick and do everything you can to get away but remember you are giving the person an excuse to pull out their gun and kill you.

It makes no sense. I hope the prosecution brings this up in closing arguments.

[ecstatic]

152. Excellent...but Trayvon wasn't given the chance to fight. Z came at him, gun already out,

which didn't give him much of a chance to do anything except...scream for his life. How else would his phone be tossed away and a bag of skittles still in his hand? Killerman's injuries are self inflicted, either by his gun's recoil or by falling on his ass while stalking Trayvon in the rain. There were no injuries on Trayvon's hand consistent with pummeling, etc.

[gopiscrap]

162. Thank you!!!

[ReRe]

164. I'm not completely convinced that Trayvon laid a hand on him...

Why? Because 1.) The police did NOT take GZ to the hospital to have his injuries documented that night. As I recall, when GZ was brought into the station that night, he did not look like he had a busted nose, there was no blood on his t-shirt, and no blood on the back of his head. Who was it that took those photos of GZ with the blood all over him? Who cleaned him up? Was it an EMT? Whose cell phone took those photos? Did that person testify yet? The PD should have taken him to the hospital also, to be sure he didn't have a concussion. Also, when did they take his clothes? Does anyone remember that little piece of evidence? 2.) Also, there was very little blood of GZ on Trayvon's body. I think they said there was a little on one of the sweatshirts Trayvon had on around the waist line of the garment. That would have been when GZ had lifted Trayvon's shirts to see if he had indeed shot him. There was no GZ blood or skin under Trayvon's fingernails or hands. Now if Trayvon had bloodied the wimp's nose and then tried to sufficate GZ by holding both hands to his face (as GZ described), one hand pinching his nose and the other over GZ's mouth, where was the blood/DNA? DNA talks, whether it's there or not.

As for GZ's intent, he profiled him and stalked him. I think GZ had been trying to work up the courage for a long long time to kill someone. He didn't HAVE to kill him. He could have simply shot him in the leg. GZ meant to kill him. Injuring Trayvon to disable him did not enter GZ's mind. GZ had built all that "courage" up (cowardice, actually) and meant to use deadly force.

[Pennycat]

189. What will GZ do that TM will never do again

Walk.

[Ecumenist]

207. Hi, Pennycat you are absolutely right. a few other things Trayvon will never do again:

Get Married, Go to prom, to college, to Europe, breathe, have children. Welcome to DU, right glad Tametcha!!

[lumpy]

217. And Zimmerman has no regrets or remorse; claims he would do it again (Hannity TV program)

When kids die at the end of a gun, by accident, intent or to satisfy selfish ambition it is tragic and heart breaking.

[lonestarnot]

196. And the faux snooze getting injected into the defense. Sean Pannitee. Good gawd.

[liberal_at_heart]

211. That is incredibly insightful. I have told my children never let anyone take you to a secondary

crime scene. You kick, scratch, yell, scream. You do everything you can do to stay in a public place. Wow Ecumenist. I doubt anybody else has thought of this. Very insightful.