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arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
Sat Jul 6, 2013, 11:23 AM Jul 2013

Information wants to be free: question for the 'no government secrets' crowd

Is there any release of secret government information you would not support? For exmple, say a leaker wanted to share the launch codes for America's nuclear missiles with a North Korean newspaper? Would you be OK with that?

21 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Information wants to be free: question for the 'no government secrets' crowd (Original Post) arely staircase Jul 2013 OP
Are there a lot of DUers calling for transparent nuke launch codes? leftstreet Jul 2013 #1
it is a hypothetical question arely staircase Jul 2013 #2
It's a question I'd expect from my 8 yr old neighbor leftstreet Jul 2013 #4
sounds like a smart kid nt arely staircase Jul 2013 #17
Gosh, no. What would make you wonder about a thing like that? DisgustipatedinCA Jul 2013 #3
lots. cali Jul 2013 #5
So we are comparing nuclear launch codes with internet/phone data collection of ordinary citizens mick063 Jul 2013 #6
+1. That's not even a straw man. Maybe a soap bubble man. n/t winter is coming Jul 2013 #8
who is comparing? arely staircase Jul 2013 #18
Here is a straight up answer mick063 Jul 2013 #21
Of course not. That's silly. morningfog Jul 2013 #7
during the height of the oh-so-inaptly named "cold war", it was assumed that other countries niyad Jul 2013 #9
Really? Revealing NSA secrets is analogous to giving N. Korea "the launch codes?" DirkGently Jul 2013 #10
no it isnt. it is obviously a much more extreme concept arely staircase Jul 2013 #19
sure, why not quinnox Jul 2013 #11
Apples and Oranges usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jul 2013 #12
Sure, why not? n/t Egalitarian Thug Jul 2013 #13
Why do we have a government? kentuck Jul 2013 #14
In past, some sought to bring world peace by sharing information. This idea is returning. freshwest Jul 2013 #15
No I'm not all right with that any more than I would be all right with my ATM password being Cleita Jul 2013 #16
... woo me with science Jul 2013 #20

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
2. it is a hypothetical question
Sat Jul 6, 2013, 11:27 AM
Jul 2013

but not one completely without context. the general philosophy of Assange and his supporters is that governments should not keep secrets. so whether such people would support leaking and publishing launch codes is a legitimate question.

leftstreet

(36,112 posts)
4. It's a question I'd expect from my 8 yr old neighbor
Sat Jul 6, 2013, 11:33 AM
Jul 2013

Even the most transparency minded person would expect the keeper of secret nuke codes to be responsible for..keeping them secret

 

mick063

(2,424 posts)
6. So we are comparing nuclear launch codes with internet/phone data collection of ordinary citizens
Sat Jul 6, 2013, 11:39 AM
Jul 2013

Really?

 

mick063

(2,424 posts)
21. Here is a straight up answer
Sat Jul 6, 2013, 02:43 PM
Jul 2013

There is an agenda behind asking a question, that you knew, when typing it, that anyone short of a Middle East martyr, would not believe that the releasing of nuclear launch codes is an expression of transparent government.

It isn't difficult to figure out your angle.

 

morningfog

(18,115 posts)
7. Of course not. That's silly.
Sat Jul 6, 2013, 11:44 AM
Jul 2013

What should be released are things such as policies and actions, especially when they are of questionable legality. Not things like launch codes and personal information.

niyad

(113,556 posts)
9. during the height of the oh-so-inaptly named "cold war", it was assumed that other countries
Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:00 PM
Jul 2013

and govts knew far more about this gov'ts "secrets" than the average american citizen. that is probably still true.

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
10. Really? Revealing NSA secrets is analogous to giving N. Korea "the launch codes?"
Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:05 PM
Jul 2013

Smells like straw manning. I've yet to see anyone argue that absolutely no information should ever be kept secret.

What I've seen a lot of is the specious conceit that revealing possible government misconduct can be condemned as criminal "espionage," so long as a Democrat is in office.

Intelligent humans are able to make qualitative distinctions between revealing troop movements or launch codes, and revealing government wrongdoing.

Somehow we had no problem making this distinction when Bush was in office. We understood that administration was using government secrecy as a way to avoid accountability for wrongdoing, and threaten and punish whistleblowing.

We can argue about where the line is between actual national defense and government's attempt to free itself from accountability to the people.

But do you want to actually argue that revealing the existence of massive, expanding government surveillance of Americans is analogous to "giving the commies our launch codes?"

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
19. no it isnt. it is obviously a much more extreme concept
Sat Jul 6, 2013, 02:27 PM
Jul 2013

That is why I through it out there. And one can agree the line should fall however short of that

.


 

quinnox

(20,600 posts)
11. sure, why not
Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:15 PM
Jul 2013

as long as all the nukes had been deactivated and warheads removed, which would have already taken place, in an ideal world. I hope one day the launch codes for nukes won't have to be kept secret any longer, because they will be neutralized and discarded as weapons of an primitive age.

Until then however, keeping them secret is the way to go. Obviously.

kentuck

(111,110 posts)
14. Why do we have a government?
Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:22 PM
Jul 2013

To spy on our own citizens or to protect us from dangerous enemies? It is a strawman argument. One is not necessarily dependent on the other.

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
15. In past, some sought to bring world peace by sharing information. This idea is returning.
Sat Jul 6, 2013, 01:31 PM
Jul 2013
Theodore Hall

For nearly half a century Fuchs was thought to have been the most significant spy at Los Alamos, but the secrets Ted Hall divulged to the Soviets preceded Fuchs and were also very critical. A Harvard graduate at age 18, Hall, at 19, was the youngest scientist on the Manhattan project in 1944. Unlike Fuchs and the Rosenbergs, he got away with his misdeeds. Hall worked on experiments for the bomb that was dropped on Nagasaki, the same type that the Soviet detonated in 1949. As a boy, Hall witnessed his family suffer during the Great Depression and his brother advised him to drop the family name Holtzberg to escape anti-Semitism. Such harsh realities of the American system affected young Hall, who joined the Marxist John Reed Club upon arrival at Harvard. When he was recruited to work at Los Alamos, he was haunted, he explained decades later, by thoughts of how to spare humanity the devastation of nuclear power. Finally, on leave in New York in October 1944, he decided to equalize the playing field, contacted the Soviets and volunteered to keep them apprised of the bomb research.

With the help of his courier and Harvard colleague, Saville Sax (a fervent communist and aspiring writer), Hall used coded references to Walt Whitman's Leaves of Grass to set up meeting times. In December 1944 Hall delivered what was probably the first atomic secret from Los Alamos, an update on the creation of the plutonium bomb. In the fall of 1946 he enrolled in University of Chicago, and was working on his PhD in 1950 when the FBI turned its spotlight on him. His real name had surfaced in a decrypted message. But Fuch's courier, Harry Gold who was already in prison, could not identify him as the man, other than Fuchs, that he had collected secrets from. Hall never went to trial. After a career in radiobiology, he moved to Great Britain and worked as a biophysicist until his retirement. When the 1995 Venona declassifications confirmed his spying from five decades earlier, he explained his motivations in a written statement:

"It seemed to me that an American monopoly was dangerous and should be prevented. I was not the only scientist to take that view."
He died in 1999 at age 74.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/Spies-Who-Spilled-Atomic-Bomb-Secrets.html

arely staircase,

There is a matter of faith in the view that releasing such things brings peace. Free release of information to maintain an open and equal society and world sounds good to me.

Some founders opposed endless restriction by those who sought to profit on innovative creations that would benefit mankind. We've seen this done repeatedly, where ideas are silenced to by those who want to maintain a monopoly. Thus we have industrial espionage, the ridiculing of solutions and a need for whistleblowing.

In the matter of weaponry as you bring up, the same information can be used by a variety of groups to profit from and kill people, doing the opposite of the idealistic vision presented. It's a quandary people have devoted their lives, seeking to protect lives by withholding information that some groups would use in order kill others.

In fantasy world, people would truly want to work together and do what's best for all. In the real world, Teabaggers, Talibans and others are violently opposed to letting anyone live outside their vision.

The GOP Teabags made a point of following people from rallies of those who for were health care, and now gun control meetings. They abused public data bases to follow them to their homes, passing out social security numbers, work numbers, schools their children attended, addresses of their family members, etc. in order to intimidate those of other political persuasions.

The point being, to keep them from exercising their right of free speech and public assembly across this nation. It has been intense since 2010.

I would think it imprudent to release launch codes to anyone, but recognize such codes do not entail the ability to use them. There is a control in place through the chain of command, the operation of missiles, etc. that are unavailable. The DOD website has been hacked, but only the front page. The current scandal du jour is not about nukes.

But I think there are those who would still hold to the ideas of those on that link I provided. They would let loose anything they could get to level the field, even if it meant destroying it. For their ideology or their faith, whatever it is.



Cleita

(75,480 posts)
16. No I'm not all right with that any more than I would be all right with my ATM password being
Sat Jul 6, 2013, 01:34 PM
Jul 2013

public, but I would like to know where those nuclear missiles are housed, how many of them we have, where they are pointed, etc.. I do think North Korea should know that they have those missile pointed at them too.

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