Snowden attorney speaks for Rand Paul, Lyndon LaRouche, and the 4th amendment

[ucrdem]

Last edited Sat Jul 6, 2013, 02:27 PM - Edit history (1)

Snowden attorney Bruce Fein has recently spoken at events sponsored by Rand Paul (June 13) and by the Schiller Institute, the latter founded by wing-nut extraordinaire Lydndon LaRouche (in January and February).

(NOTE: Since the author of the Accuracy in Media article I originally posted turns out to be unsavory I'm omitting it and replacing it with a 2011 Slate piece documenting Fein's articles of impeachment against Obama and his work for Ron Paul. Information from LarouchePac confirming Fein's Schiller talks is posted in the thread below)

Lawyer Who Drafted Impeachment Articles Against Obama Signs Up With Ron Paul

By David Weigel | Slate | Posted Tuesday, Aug. 23, 2011, at 12:02 PM

Shortly after the United States established a no fly zone over Libya, libertarian attorney Bruce Fein drew up articles of impeachment against the president.

The Ron Paul 2012 Presidential Campaign announced today that constitutional and international law expert Bruce Fein will join the campaign as senior advisor on legal matters.

This isn't actually a surprise hire, because Fein helped out Paul in 2012. Here's his speech from Paul's 2008 rally that was cross-programmed against the Republican National Convention. But Fein's more prominent now, and his obsession -- the constitutionality of wars -- is one Republican primary voters are more interested in now that George W. Bush isn't president.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2011/08/23/lawyer_who_drafted_impeachment_articles_against_obama_signs_up_w.html

This guy is standing up for Paul Revere Snowden. Do you think he and Snowden are standing up for you?

[ucrdem]

1. So, just to sum up . . .

Greenwald launches dishonest stink-bombs from across the pond, Snowden is a Social-Security hating gun nut who loathes Obama, Snowden attorney Bruce Fein openly speaks for Lyndon LaRouche, and we're supposed to thank this mob for service to our county.

Strange days here on the internet.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

4. James Brady worked for Reagan. Look at the Brady Bill. David Brock wrote two RW hit pieces

Runs Media Matters now.

Even Ed Schultz started as a wingnut. Bill Maher was a self-proclaimed McCain libertarian.

[ucrdem]

6. Bill Maher was a self-proclaimed McCain libertarian?

[Nanjing to Seoul]

20. He supported McCain in the 2000 election over Gore and Bush.

[Jamaal510]

223. There's also a video of him endorsing Ron Paul in 2008.

At least Maher seems to realize that was a mistake.

[leveymg]

56. Taking this guilt by association thing a few more steps removed, aren't we?

[ucrdem]

59. Because this is political and yes, their politics matter.

Next question?

[leveymg]

70. This makes the politics of people several steps removed from Snowden the issue. How is that

relevant or do you really think that this is really some sort of super-duper souped up Lyndon LaRouchite conspiracy on steroids?
Sorry, if you're gonna engage in character assassination, don't be so damn transparent about it. You can do better work.

[ucrdem]

78. Because they support Snowden who shares their frightwing politics.

That isn't obvious?

[totodeinhere]

96. Even if Snowden shares right wing politics, should that deflect from our concern

over the Patriot Act or the surveillance state? Whatever Snowden's motives were for coming forward, I am interested in this information and so should you be.

[Jamaal510]

224. Frightwing

[99Forever]

101. How about "the politics of"...

... the American government spying on hundreds of millions of law-abiding taxpaying citizens going about their daily lives?

Do you have anything to say about that?

There's two "next questions" for you, step up to the microphone and answer.

[lunasun]

85. The link in OP has an interesting book for sale!!

http://www.aim.org/the-obama-years/

all will now say the source, does not matter.............

check out AIM Work
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_in_Media

[think]

94. So AIM was part of the Vince Foster Conspiracy Theory? Oh Snap!

Vincent Foster conspiracy theory

Accuracy in Media has received a substantial amount of funding from Richard Mellon Scaife who paid Christopher W. Ruddy to investigate allegations that President Bill Clinton was connected to the suicide of Vincent Foster.[10] AIM contends that "Foster was murdered",[11] which is contrary to three independent reports including one by Kenneth Starr.[12] AIM faults the media for not picking up on the conspiracy.[13] The organization has even gone to court for documents and recordings linked to the case.

AIM credits much of its reporting on the Foster case to Ruddy.[14] Yet, his work has been called a "hoax" and "discredited" by conservatives like Ann Coulter,[15] it was also disputed by the American Spectator, which caused Scaife to end his funding of the Arkansas Project with the publisher.[16] As CNN explained on February 28, 1997, "The [Starr] report refutes claims by conservative political organizations that Foster was the victim of a murder plot and coverup", but "despite those findings, right-wing political groups have continued to allege that there was more to the death and that the president and First Lady tried to cover it up".[17]

Ruddy operates a conservative news website, NewsMax, that still asserts there is a conspiracy and faults the media.[18]...

Wiki entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_in_Media#Vincent_Foster_conspiracy_theory

[think]

102. Thank you for catching these facts.

[msanthrope]

138. Bruce Fein gutted the Fairness Doctrine. With glee. nt

[flamingdem]

174. Add the irony of purist Leftists on DU madly cheering Snowden going to Venezuela, a socialist

republic with a security apparatus that is influenced by Communist Cuba!

[ucrdem]

181. Kind of like Nixon in China

except I don't foresee a happy ending.

[MannyGoldstein]

2. And the White House is spying on every American

Which is much the larger problem.

[ucrdem]

3. I suppose it would be, if it were true.

And I suppose if you believed the likes of Rand Paul and Lyndon LaRouche, you'd be likely to think it is. It isn't.

[cali]

11. it is true. deal with it.

U.S. Postal Service Logging All Mail for Law Enforcement


Leslie James Pickering noticed something odd in his mail last September: a handwritten card, apparently delivered by mistake, with instructions for postal workers to pay special attention to the letters and packages sent to his home.

“Show all mail to supv” — supervisor — “for copying prior to going out on the street,” read the card. It included Mr. Pickering’s name, address and the type of mail that needed to be monitored. The word “confidential” was highlighted in green.

“It was a bit of a shock to see it,” said Mr. Pickering, who with his wife owns a small bookstore in Buffalo. More than a decade ago, he was a spokesman for the Earth Liberation Front, a radical environmental group labeled eco-terrorists by the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Postal officials subsequently confirmed they were indeed tracking Mr. Pickering’s mail but told him nothing else.

As the world focuses on the high-tech spying of the National Security Agency, the misplaced card offers a rare glimpse inside the seemingly low-tech but prevalent snooping of the United States Postal Service.

<snip>

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/us/monitoring-of-snail-mail.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

[ucrdem]

15. I sent my brother a Christmas card that arrived six month later without the card.

[cali]

26. that's not a response to the article.

It's nonsense.

[Ikonoklast]

87. So is the belief that the USPS logs all mail.

We need more tinfoil around here.

[cali]

149. what do you think of the article? Is it tinfoil?

[phleshdef]

208. No, its an article about a guy who worked for a domestic terrorist org that committed mass arson.

[fasttense]

7. You tell it Manny

[MH1]

10. I would disagree with your choice of larger problem, if LaRouchites give us a tea party President.

People in PA got complacent, and we now have a blatantly corrupt idiot governor who is royally f*cking the entire state (with the exceptions of the corporations he's receiving kickbacks from).

I shudder to think what a Corbett / Palin / Rand Paul / Paul Ryan type would do as US president. (You wold probably shudder to think of it too, if you allowed yourself to think of it.)

That would be a FAR FAR bigger problem for 99.99 % of Americans; for whom the US government really doesn't give one microscopic shit what they are up to, even if all that data were on file, which I think is (in contrast) a large steaming pile of bull shit designed to assist in the outcome of having a liberteapublican president to f*ck over 98% of America while sharing the profits of the .005%.

[ucrdem]

21. So very, very true.

Thank you for explaining it. Normally the conversation doesn't get that far but yes, that's exactly what I fear can and will happen in 2016 if this kind of bashing goes on without some serious push back from rank and file Democratic voters.

[totodeinhere]

109. In other words, lets not make a big stink over the surveillance state because doing

so might be a political problem for the Democrats. That is kind of like political blackmail. For political reasons we can't pursue legitimate inquires over what millions of Americans consider to be an important issue. I don't buy it.

[HardTimes99]

116. They don't even consider the inquiries themselves 'legitimate,' fwiw. "If a Democrat is doing it, it

Last edited Sat Jul 6, 2013, 10:17 AM - Edit history (1)

must be legal," is their mindset.

But I think you have captured their position in a nutshell.

I don't buy it either.

[woo me with science]

142. "It comes from a very ancient democracy, you see..."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022672473#post23

"It comes from a very ancient democracy, you see..."

"You mean, it comes from a world of lizards?"

"No," said Ford, who by this time was a little more rational and coherent than he had been, having finally had the coffee forced down him, "nothing so simple. Nothing anything like to straightforward. On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people."

"Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy."

"I did," said ford. "It is."

"So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't the people get rid of the lizards?"

"It honestly doesn't occur to them," said Ford. "They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates to the government they want."

"You mean they actually vote for the lizards?"

"Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course."

"But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"

"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in.

-Douglas Adams (So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish)

[flamingdem]

178. Absolcluckinglutely MH1

Well stated

[DeeDeeNY]

71. The White House?

Really??

[CakeGrrl]

228. The masks are slipping.

This incident is the latest "Stick-it-to-Obama-for-all-the-times-he's-pissed-us-off". David vs. Goliath(Obama). Luke vs. the Evil Empire(Obama).

[DeeDeeNY]

231. It sure seems that way lately

[Chef Eric]

84. The important thing is that Snowden has body odor.

Bad breath, too.

So quit changing the subject. Sheesh!

[treestar]

161. No they aren't

And from the time of FISA there has been oversight which did not exist before.

[sagat]

203. Got any proof?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

[jazzimov]

229. NO, it's not. Stop spreading lies.

Go back and read the leaked documents and inform yourself.

[fasttense]

5. Top US officials are running a secret, worldwide corporate spying program with NO oversight!

That is the story, NOT the identity of Snowden's lawyer. Talk about burying the lead, or more likely creating an NSA approved distraction.

"What kind of journalist - or citizen - would focus more on Edward Snowden's tonal oddities (lawyer's identity) and travel drama than on the fact that top US officials have been deceitfully concealing a massive, worldwide spying apparatus being constructed with virtually no accountability or oversight? Just ponder what it says about someone who cares more about, and is angrier about, Edward Snowden's exposure of these facts than they are about James Clapper's falsehoods and the NSA's excesses.

What we see here, yet again, is this authoritarian strain in US political life that the most powerful political officials cannot commit crimes or engage in serious wrongdoing. The only political crimes come from exposing and aggressively challenging those officials."

[ucrdem]

9. I'm not talking about his "tonal oddities," I'm telling you he's a RW saboteur

doing the bidding of RW saboteurs. I've been telling you that since the Verizon warrant made the rouns.

p.s. not to give away any spoilers, but "RW saboteurs" are the big money arms industry guys that blow up the WH in White House Down, if you happened to take in that one. Funny how art imitates life, if you want to call summer blockbusters art:

[fasttense]

18. How can he be a RW saboteur?

if he is exposing a program created and approved by RepubliCONS. Secret corporate controlled spying programs are the ultimate fantasy of teabaggers and RepubliCONS. This was created by the thieves W and Cheney. We all expected it to go bye-bye when Obama took the reins of the executive branch. There is very little doubt that Snowden's accusations are true. Even the head of NSA does NOT deny Snowden's accusations (though he claims they are legal).

It seems to me, if Snowden sabotaged the White House then the White House left the front door wide open, invited Snowden in and fed him dinner.

[ucrdem]

32. No one expected the NSA to go bye-bye and no one promised that it would.

Incidentally did you notice that the Iraq war did, in fact, go bye-bye, exactly as promised?

Bet you didn't.

[treestar]

162. There is oversight

Quit lying.

[NoMoreWarNow]

8. Guilt-by-association much? Geesh!

Bruce Fein actually has a complicated history and is a pretty decent guy of late.

[ucrdem]

12. Yes I'm sure he's the soul of decency lately.

In fact, I'd venture to say he's the Paul Revere of jurisprudential decency, lately.

[NoMoreWarNow]

16. you really seem to have a chip on your shoulder about Snowden...

not sure why...

[Jackpine Radical]

75. $$$? (nt)

[truth2power]

134. Why, yes! I suspect that's it, exactly, Jackpine...

$$$

Good money for not much work, IMO, because they just post the same smears, over and over and over.

[ucrdem]

139. Thanks for not accusing me of being a lame Libertarian troll who thinks they're fooling anyone.

[cyclezealot]

14. I for one consider Snowden a hero.

He is a defender of the Fourth Amendment. DU members need use their brain instead of drink the Kool Aide. Snowden's politics is of no concern. And Bruce Fein is no hero. Who are hero's are the other exonerated Security Whistle Blowers who are in praise of Snowden. That does not make Fein any kind of top notch defense lawyer. As Whistle Blower Frank Snepp points out about Fein.. It was Fein's DOJ under Reagan that prosecuted other Whistle Blowers under the Espionage Act. Talk of hypocrisy. To support Snowden does not have to be anti Obama. It is up to Obama to do the right thing, and we need to pressure him to do such.

[NoMoreWarNow]

19. yes, Fein had a bad past but he seemed to have turned around in the Bush years

He is an equal opportunity critic of government power, of late.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_fein#Criticizing_Bush.2C_Clinton_and_Obama
The George W. Bush administration's terrorist surveillance program which intercepted some communications without a warrant from the FISA court incensed him enough to propose censure or even impeachment of Bush.[7] He ridiculed Harriett Miers's Supreme Court nomination,[8] and was sharply criticical of then-U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales.[9][10][11]

In March 2007,he founded the American Freedom Agenda with Bob Barr, David Keene and Richard Viguerie.[11][12] Notable published writings by Fein include articles advocating the impeachment of former U.S. presidents Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, and former U.S. Vice-President Dick Cheney.

On September 2, 2008, Fein addressed Ron Paul's "Rally For The Republic" in Minneapolis, offering a critique of the Bush administration's interventionist policy and advocating a more non-interventionist foreign policy. Fein also harshly criticized the anti-terror policies of the Bush White House, including wiretapping and detention of terror suspects. In April 2009, Fein criticized President Barack Obama for declining to prosecute Bush administration officials for composing CIA memos justifying torture during interrogations.[13]

In 2011, Fein proposed impeaching President Barack Obama in connection with the 2011 military intervention in Libya.

[cyclezealot]

25. You know that is not unusual.

Fein might have changed from his Reagan DOJ years..??
Look to other Republicans who have seen the error of their ways. Some include
John Dean, David Stockman, Kevin Phillips, Lawrence Wilkerson, Paul Craig Roberts.. . Just to name a few.

[ucrdem]

34. "Fein has appeared at two conferences this year sponsored by the Schiller Institute"

He hasn't changed, sorry.

[LukeFL]

88. Snowden politics is of huge

Concern because he loved the patriot act while bush was president but now hates it?
He's a set up.

http://www.thepeoplesview.net/2013/07/how-professional-lefts-blind-obama.html?m=1

[cyclezealot]

110. BS.

Snowden is despised by Republicans for his anti Stasi views. his politics is irrelevant. As crazy as is Ron Paul, he 's only about 90%. Get off the partisan kick and face the real issue. We are not anti Obama , I expect him to stick to his campaign promises of open government and a call for strong whistle blower laws.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

111. you mean like how a while back a fair number of pro-snowden supporters

was using guilt by association by trying to link Cheney(and a few other RWers) to those who do not support Snowden to 'prove' they were on the wrong side?

[cyclezealot]

156. This does not have to be Anti Obama.

In keeping with his promises,it should be anti Stasi State..

[Bodhi BloodWave]

210. you will get no argument from me on that

I just wanted to point out to the poster that both sides are guilty of the 'offense'

personally i think that using the GbA tactic diminishes both sides since there will ALWAYS be somebody distasteful(or a myriad of other similar words) on any side of an issue and to use that person to try and discredit everybody in my eyes is foolish as its an unfair conflation(might not be the best word, but i think it fits the context)

[cali]

13. This is astonishingly lame

just jaw dropping.

desperate much?

[ucrdem]

17. That's practically a compliment.

Thanks, cali!

[cali]

24. you're welcome. how about responding to my post upthread?

[ucrdem]

27. I responded. I guess you missed the point which I'll explain:

Complaining about the USPS is a different conversation. Yes the story is troubling, no the White House is not reading that couple's mail.

Hope that helps!

[Scootaloo]

29. Don't get your hopes up

I haven't seen a meaningful argument presented yet. Nor any attempt to address the fucking-over of the fourth amendment... which has the ripple effect of doing the same to the first and fourteenth amendments as well.

[ucrdem]

30. Look up.

Voila.

[Scootaloo]

33. Key word, "meaningful"

"AH MAH GAH HIS LAWYERS A LIBERTURRIAN!" isn't exactly full of meaning. it just means his lawyer's a douchebag. Which generally means he's not much different from most lawyers.

What else have you got?

[ucrdem]

36. What else do you need?

Seriously. What are you asking for?

[Scootaloo]

40. I'm not looking for anything, honestly

I'm just sharing Cali's opinion that this is "incredibly lame" - though I would have phrased it as "fucking stupid," Cali's a little more polite than I am usually.

Seriously, you're touting the fact that Snowden's attorney was a speaker at a LaRouche event as evidence of... of... something? As far as I can figure it's some weird, hare-brained idea that Snowden's leaking is going to give us a president LaRouche, and then oh boy won't we all feel silly for worrying about the fourth amendment then. You throw Palin and Paul in there too... what, couldn't shoehorn Buchanan's pork-flavored behind in there also?

What it looks like to me is that you're trying to frame anyone who's put-off by the violation of the fourth amendment evidenced by out government's massive domestic surveillance, is a closet supporter of these politicians you named (I use the term "politician" under advisement in some of those cases.) That is, it's not that you're particularly concerned with these dire outcomes you predict - likely you don't buy into any of that garbage. You're just trying to shut up people whose opinions you don't like.

As for your argument that the president isn't reading my mail? Probably not, you're right... but that's not the point, and if that's your best argument, "oh, they don't actually read everything they collect," well, you don't have an argument worth making. The point is it should not be getting collected at all.

[Iliyah]

44. Awwwwwwwwwwwwww

calling someone's thread "stupid" because it doesn't agree with ya huh.

[Scootaloo]

47. No, I called it FUCKING stupid, get it right or don't bother

Has nothing to do with whether I agree or disagree (with what, that Snowden's Lawyer spoke for a goofball? or that this is evidence of a sweeping conspiracy by that particular five-layer dipshit?) and everything to do with piss-poor logic, conspiracy-theory nonsense, hyperbolic bullshit, and a weak attempt to project LaRouchiness onto DU posters by some sort of seventh-degree blame by association gambit.

Thus, fucking stupid.

[HardTimes99]

141. At some point, you should create an OP around this and build upon

its themes.

You speak for me, far more eloquently and pointedly than I can myself.

[ucrdem]

46. Look, NSA-gate is not, was not, and never will be about the 4th amendment

or any other law or policy, and it will probably have very little effect on same when all is said and done. The serious problems have been addressed already, and if you'd been paying attention you'd know that. It isn't about Snowden, or Greenwald, or the Guardian, or any other low-grade rat whose tinselly star might shine a little brighter as a result of having a hand in it. But it is about Obama, like Benghazi and IRS-gate were about Obama and like Fast and Furious was about Holder. Right-wing ratfucks, as predictable as rain, back when rain was predictable, are what these are, and I'm not going repukes the satisfaction of watching me shit my pants over this or any other swiftboat they decide to launch. You're free to do as you please.

[Scootaloo]

51. You seem to be shitting your pants nevertheless.

AH MAH GAH TEH LAWYURR!

[ucrdem]

53. Nopity. I'm pushing back against the swiftboaters.

Most here seem happy to hop aboard.

[Scootaloo]

60. No, you're not

You've posting a heaving rant about some dumbassed lawyer who spoke at an event for a dumbassed wannabe-candidate (who's been a wannabe candidate since, what, 1976?) and trying - with very little success - to tie him in with DU'ers who don't agree with your own particular position.

And while I'm sure you imagine you're leading some valiant charge against the forces of evil, mostly you're just ending up making a very strange argument that makes you look like you haven't gotten enough sleep.

[ucrdem]

69. LaRouche is not a "dumbass" and only a fool would think he's not dangerous.

Completely nuts, yes, but not a dumbass. He's evil smart and very dangerous. He's also freakin' old but dangerous nonetheless, as are Ron and Rand Paul.

[Iliyah]

22. Thanks - ucrdem!

Many liberal/progressives are aware of this and thanks for bringing much attention.

SSI, Medicare, Medcaid (Medi-Cal), unemployement insurance, civil liberties, et al., will be on the line. As to the 4 Amendment and what the United States of America is doing will not change and Rand Paul like all politicians are liars and the systems of the Patriot Act, NSA and others will remain intact.

Makes me wonder about who initially got Snowden involved in lifting information.

Attacks attacks attacks, but ucrdem I support your information.

[ucrdem]

28. Thanks Iliyah, much appreciated.

[Iliyah]

35. You are welcome!

The Rand Paul follows are out in full force - LOL

[graham4anything]

126. +1

[think]

130. AIM is the group who helped spread the Vincent Fostor Conspiracy Theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_in_Media#Vincent_Foster_conspiracy_theory

Just to let you know....

[ucrdem]

137. Mabye you'd rather hear it directly from Lyndon LaRouche?

http://larouchepac.com/node/25372

[think]

140. Just letting him know your source. sorry that bothers you....

[ucrdem]

145. Here's a transcript of "civil libertarian" Fein's Jan. 26 speech at LaRouche's Schiller Institute

in case you're looking for a different source:

http://www.schillerinstitute.org/conf-iclc/2013/0126_ny/fein.html

[think]

147. It's the slant and the original source that is the rub......

not the particular facts. Everyone know Snowden is a Libertarian.

Eric Holder represented Chiquita banana against murder for hire charges in the killing of union leaders in Columbia.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dan-kovalik/lawyer-for-chiquita-in-co_b_141919.html

Does that make Obama a supporter of union killers? Fuck no!

So feel free to use guilt by association while lumping in supporters of the 4th amendment and using a source that help started the Vincent foster conspiracy theory.

[ucrdem]

148. Did everyone know about Snowden's LaRouche connection?

I didn't.

[think]

152. Did Larouche help Snowden expose the NSA documents? I missed that one

Maybe that will be in the next AIM article you post.

[Waiting For Everyman]

23. Joe McCarthy called,

he wants his logic back.

[East Coast Pirate]

31. My girlfriend's parents are Republicans.

In fact, SHE voted for ROSS PEROT!!!

I guess that makes me a Republican. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Strange days, yep.

[Union Scribe]

37. But does he have ties to Jeremiah Wright

or Bill Ayers???

Guilt by association: IOKIYAOS!

[lunasun]

89. Oh for sure! & check out AIM where link is from = big time finger pointers

Accuracy in Media has received a substantial amount of funding from Richard Mellon Scaife who paid Christopher W. Ruddy to investigate allegations that President Bill Clinton was connected to the suicide of Vincent Foster.[10] AIM contends that "Foster was murdered",[11] which is contrary to three independent reports including one by Kenneth Starr.[12] AIM faults the media for not picking up on the conspiracy.[13] The organization has even gone to court for documents and recordings linked to the case.
.
Ruddy operates a conservative news website, NewsMax, that still asserts there is a conspiracy and faults the media.[18]
United Nations

AIM has been critical of the United Nations and its coverage by the media. In February 2005, AIM alleged that United Nations correspondents, including Ian Williams, a correspondent for The Nation had accepted money from the UN while covering it for their publications. AIM also asserted that the United Nations Correspondents Association may have violated immigration laws by employing the wife of Williams.[19][20] Williams and The Nation denied wrongdoing.[21][22] The charges were reiterated by FrontPage Magazine [23] and the allegation concerning Williams receiving UN cash was picked up by Brit Hume and the Fox News Channel.[23]
Cliff Kincaid and Fox News Channel

In November 2005, AIM columnist Cliff Kincaid criticized Fox News for broadcasting a program The Heat is On, which reported that global warming represents a serious problem (the program was broadcast with a disclaimer). Kincaid argued the piece was one-sided and stated that this "scandal" amounted to a "hostile takeover of Fox News".[24]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_in_Media

[think]

38. WTF: Did you just lump the 4th amendment in with Rand Paul & Lyndon Larouche?

[ucrdem]

39. Is the thread title inaccurate?

Or is there something wrong with the 4th amendment?

[Iliyah]

41. LOL

Repeats of the same arguments but different characters. When libs did it we were delusion, when GOPers/Libertarians do it its reasonable.

[think]

42. Apparently so if a Larouche supporter is doing it. Wouldn't want to be lumped in with him

would I?

[think]

50. Dick Cheney speaks for the Republicans, Halliburton, & Barack Obama

true statement....

[ucrdem]

52. You failed to support your assertion with any evidence. nt

[think]

58. Evidence like: "Cheney defends Obama on Drone Strikes"?

http://thehill.com/video/in-the-news/282439-cheney-defends-obama-on-drone-strikes

Obviously one shouldn't lump Barack Obama in with Dick Cheney and the Republicans. It is wrong because even though the statement is true it puts Obama in a negative light on him by associating him with the other two.

Cheers...

[ucrdem]

62. So start a thread about it. Maybe you can get a statement from Larry Sinclair. nt

[think]

63. Lump away. It's completely true but still disingenuous and you know it.

[ucrdem]

65. Larry Sinclair's story is completely true?

Do tell.

[think]

68. Who the fuck is Larry Sinclair?

[ucrdem]

74. Look it up. nt

[think]

76. No. Unless he has something to do with the 4th being violated by the NSA

he is irrelevant...

[ucrdem]

79. He's as relevant as your claim about Cheney. nt

[Iliyah]

82. Dickie poo

is supporting "drones" and not Pres O. Rove, Cheney, Paul and the rest of the GOPer parade like vulture waiting on the 2016 elections to get their puppet in the WH, and if that happens along with a gop congress - who here will spout Authoritarian.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

128. What in the fuck is this pile of words?

I looked at for 2 minutes trying to understand what you're saying. It's incomprehensible.

[Iliyah]

54. WHAT????

Bullshit when it comes to Pres O.

[think]

61. and bullshit when it comes to the 4th amendment being lumped with Larouche!

I used an outrageous example to illustrate what it means to LUMP someone or something in where it shouldn't be associated with.

[ucrdem]

64. If LaRouche has made the 4th amendment a pet issue, that should give you pause.

But it probably won't.

[think]

67. You are the one lumping the 4th in with Larocuhe or did you forget?

[ucrdem]

72. LaRouche and Rand Paul made the 4th amendment their issue, not me. nt

[think]

73. Ya the NSA violating the 4th doesn't seem to a big issue with some....

[ucrdem]

80. Look, if you don't believe me, read this from a DUer who's been around longer:

MH1, reply #10: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3182158

[DisgustipatedinCA]

131. If its in the Bill of Rights, it should give you pause.

But it most assuredly will not.

[naaman fletcher]

43. wow,

the authoritarians must be getting desperate if they are trying to bring Lyndon Larouche into it.

[Iliyah]

45. Oh my gosh

now posters who post and open threads that are not what some want to read and see are authoritarians now, go figure.

[naaman fletcher]

48. people

who are against government whistleblowers and think the security state reigns supreme are authoritarians.

[Iliyah]

66. Yippee, then I'm not one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lets also remember that as this NSA is an important issue, there are other issues that are important as well in the USA like civil liberties. Healthy discussions, opinions, ideals, freedom of religion, civil liberties, rights of all people no matter of race, creed and preference of who you love and universal heath care are and will remain the USA's way because we believe in democracy.

[stonecutter357]

49. Metadata does not belong to you.

I will not vote for a Libertarian EVER!

[graham4anything]

55. There is a LaRouchie that sets up a table outside the post office...

I love arguing with them, and wasting their time, as they are soliciting, and they have the most vile pictures of my President hanging on their table, so of course, I show off my buttons to them ....

of course, they want me to purchase their literature, but I never do,
and the funny thing is, they want my name, phone number, address and email for their lists.

The first amendment of course guarantees their right to be there.
Of course, the first amendment guarantees my right to argue against them right in front of them.

(same with Rand and Ron fanatics if they are set up, I don't much find major differences between LaRouchies and Pauls.)

Both are jumping up and down in happiness over the Voting rights rulings
and both hate the DOMA rulings.

[freedom fighter jh]

57. There is an OP today saying NSA has a dossier on just about every one of us.

See http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023181759 .

The exceptions, I suppose, must be newborn babies.

But if Bruce Fein is somehow associated with Ron Paul and Lyndon LaRouche, and Fein is working for Edward Snowden's father, then Edward Snowden must by association be a right-wing nutcase so don't listen to him. In fact, don't listen to anyone warning you about dangers to your rights.

Hey, NSA probably has a dossier on you even if there is no reason for you to be suspected of anything illegal. Every letter you send through the mail gets photographed. Your phone calls are being recorded and stored.

Do you really care who it is that is bringing this message?

For what it's worth, Bruce Fein was against this sort of thing when the Bush Administration was doing it. See http://warisacrime.org/node/23577 .

[pmorlan1]

104. Principle vs Partisanship

You are correct, Bruce Fein has been very consistent on this issue. He criticized the Bush administration and the Obama administration. What a pity some of our Democrats aren't as consistent. They are revealing for everyone to see that Party politics are more important to them than protecting the Constitution. They are the spinners of the Party and not the ones who work on the Party's platform. If Obama came out against abortion they would be against abortion. If he came out in favor of torture, they would be in favor of torture. The only consistency they have is that they are consistently partisan.

[treestar]

165. Anyone who can get a credit report has a "dossier" on you

We've allowed most of it to happen out of convenience to ourselves and to the banks from which we want to borrow money.

[malaise]

77. Where is the real North Carolina money man -Pope - in all of this?? n/t

[tridim]

81. Kenny Boy who?

Own it neo-DU. He's all yours.

[cherokeeprogressive]

83. Yeah.

Pretty fucking easy, wannit?

[idwiyo]

86. Theodore Olson. Rings the bell? I doubt it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Olson

[Iliyah]

93. Hey, some RWers do see the light on some issues

but unfortunately in this case I personally do not see it. So again in democracy - agree to disagree and I agree with the poster of this thread. Second, Atty, Olson in my opinion was right about Prop 8 and fought against it along with others. The LGBT won as well wins across the USA with Doma, which was a good day.

Oh and it works in reverse as well, Dems who side with those crazy GOPers.

[idwiyo]

98. Was he also right in Bush vs Gore?

[Babel_17]

90. Wikipedia link

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Fein

Looks like he knows the law very, very, well and might be motivated to work very hard and for relatively little.

I think if any poster here were facing the level of charges that Snowden is then they might be more concerned with bang for the buck than the optics of the choice.

Though in a case like this public perception does count. Then again, once it gets to a judge and a jury that is supposed to be a non-factor.

He sounds hardcore.

The George W. Bush administration's terrorist surveillance program which intercepted some communications without a warrant from the FISA court incensed him enough to propose censure or even impeachment of Bush.[7] He ridiculed Harriett Miers's Supreme Court nomination,[8] and was sharply criticical of then-U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales.[9][10][11]

In March 2007,he founded the American Freedom Agenda with Bob Barr, David Keene and Richard Viguerie.[11][12] Notable published writings by Fein include articles advocating the impeachment of former U.S. presidents Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, and former U.S. Vice-President Dick Cheney.

On September 2, 2008, Fein addressed Ron Paul's "Rally For The Republic" in Minneapolis, offering a critique of the Bush administration's interventionist policy and advocating a more non-interventionist foreign policy. Fein also harshly criticized the anti-terror policies of the Bush White House, including wiretapping and detention of terror suspects. In April 2009, Fein criticized President Barack Obama for declining to prosecute Bush administration officials for composing CIA memos justifying torture during interrogations.[13]

In 2011, Fein proposed impeaching President Barack Obama in connection with the 2011 military intervention in Libya.[14][15]

[idwiyo]

106. Sounds like an impressive record for a lawyer. I'd hire him if I need to defend myself for my

anti-war, anti-surveilance activities.

[ProSense]

91. You should have started an

Obama is Cheney thread.

[Iliyah]

114. Top of the morning to you ProSense!

[totodeinhere]

92. How many times do we have to repeat that this is not about Snowden or his attorney

or about anyone else that you can try to find dirt on in an effort to change the subject? I don't care if Snowden's attorney represented the devil himself. It's irrelevant to our discussion of the surveillance state.

[think]

100. This story is by AIM, Accuracy in Media. Please check out this Wiki entry

and try not to cry laughing...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_in_Media#Vincent_Foster_conspiracy_theory

[Warren Stupidity]

95. An article that starts with "NSA traitor" can be safely ignored as bullshit. Nt.

[ucrdem]

115. Except that it's true.

From the horse's mouth, so to speak:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3182698

[Warren Stupidity]

120. Traitor has a specific meaning. No act of treason has occurred, no charge of treason filed.

[ucrdem]

124. May I ask what on earth are you're talking about?

The OP says Fein spoke at the Schiller Institute. Evidently, he did, according to LaRouche's own newsletter, link above. Thus it is demonstrated that OP is accurate. End of story, unless you want to dispute the June 13 Rand Paul appearance?

[Warren Stupidity]

127. Wait, first you argue with me then you claim you have no idea what I'm talking about?

You posted an article from a notorious right wing disinformation site that starts out with this sentence:

In a curious development, NSA traitor Edward Snowden’s

That clearly sorts the article into the rightwing bullshit bin. A discerning reader can stop there. Actually we can stop with your headline. Who or what somebody's attorney supports or associates with is pretty much irrelevant to anything other than the attorney himself.

[ucrdem]

133. Oh good grief. You a discerning reader, please. And if you want to know,

yes, Snowden is a traitor. He shared classified information with nations we spend billions if not trillions annually on engaging in cyberwarfe with, a.k.a. enemies. That's treason. Look it up. That lame quibble notwithstanding, the article as it pertains to Fein is apparently accurate and you've supplied no evidence that it isn't.

[Warren Stupidity]

209. "yes, Snowden is a traitor" - well except of course that he did not commit an act of treason.

Only in rightwing world is giving information to a newspaper, even a !horrors! Chinese newspaper an act of treason. Are we at war with China? (hint: no.) Are we at war with the UK? They are not our "enemy". There has been no act of treason, there has been no charge of treason. Treason has a specific constitutional meaning. But then again authoritarians don't think much of the constitution, so I can understand your confusion.

[ucrdem]

212. Article 3, Section 3 of the US Constitution states:

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_A3Sec3.html

We are certainly conducting cyberwarfare against China, and Snowden certainly gave them aid in the form of classified surveillance info. The idiot is a traitor whether you can bring yourself to discern it or not. I suggest you accommodate yourself to the idea instead of wasting everybody's time mooning over the latest RW Obama basher.

[Warren Stupidity]

215. Yes? And which enemies would that be?

You are really going to go with the colossally stupid argument that China is an enemy state? Series?

[ucrdem]

216. The ones we conduct cyberwarfare against at a cost of billions annually. nt

[Fuddnik]

97. You've sunk to using Accuracy in Media as a source? People are getting desperate.

They're every bit as crazy as Lyndon LaRouche.

Right-wing extremist media hound dog.

[idwiyo]

108. Yeah, but as long as they sing what OP wants, it's all GOOD!!!

[ucrdem]

117. As it happens, it's accurate, at least as far as Fein speaking at LaRouche's Schiller Institute:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3182698

[Anarcho-Socialist]

99. Guilt by association - yay

[Iliyah]

103. Don't trust Wikipedia at all

Any body can write on it, period, zip, remember Bachmann, anyone?

[noamnety]

105. This is a fun game. Let's try it with Obama!

He's appointed republicans to his cabinet - he's basically a republican!
How many Monsanto shills has he appointed? OMG - he is trying to take over the food supply and privatize seeds!

It's easy to do the guilt by association thing, isn't it? And somewhat embarrassing that Obama's ties to republicans are stronger than Snowden's ties to libertarians.

But honestly, I'm far more concerned about why Obama's appointing Monsanto cronies to oversee food safety than about whether Snowden's lawyer spoke at a LaRouche function. One affects policy and safety for the entire world. The other belongs on a hidden microphone conversation on a tacky reality show where people whisper in corners to form alliances.

[HardTimes99]

107. Is DU going to allow McCarthyism like this to stand? - nt

[ProSense]

118. You'd be

"Is DU going to allow McCarthyism like this to stand?"

...surprised at what is supported and allowed to "stand": http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023087676

How is calling out Bruce Fein "McCarthyism"?

This is done everyday to Obama, Democrats, Republicans, no one is above being called out.

[ucrdem]

121. Thanks ProSense!

Yes, ironic isn't it? The things that get recs on DU these days.

[treestar]

167. Exactly.

The hair on fire brigade does not like disagreement. When they make a pronouncement that the US or Obama is evil, they expect instant agreement and are shocked if anyone questions anything they said. Once they believe it, it's evidence and irrefutable and they get angry and incredulous that we don't march in lockstep behind them.

[ucrdem]

119. Pointing out an attorney's LaRouche and Rand Paul connections is not allowed?

Who knew?

[Iliyah]

123. Only for people who disagree with

them - ucrdem

Quite a democracy on this board huh.

[HardTimes99]

132. Your OP disgusts me with its blatant use of the 'association fallacy'. You've

called Snowden a 'traitor' here. The final step in this puerile odyssey will be for you to call those of use who support his actions 'traitors.' (For all I know, you already have. It would not surprise me.)

[ProSense]

135. Here

"Your OP disgusts me with its blatant use of the 'association fallacy'."

...a few "association fallacy" greatest hits:

Great News Apologists. You're on the same side as Rep. Peter King.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022982714

The difference between a Freeper and an Obama Apologist cheerleading Wiretap programs
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023073129

[truth2power]

112. You're really scraping the bottom of the barrel with this one...

On the up-side, though, it gives me another opportunity to post this link:


http://www.fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/the-25-rules-of-disinformation/46103

25 Rules of Disinformation

5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary attack the messenger ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as “kooks”, “right-wing”, “liberal”, “left-wing”, “terrorists”, “conspiracy buffs”, “radicals”, “militia”, “racists”, “religious fanatics”, “sexual deviates”, and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues. <Emphasis added>

You're welcome

[Iliyah]

122. And forget name calling people who disagree with

you, ummmmmmmmm, lets say Authoritarian, Fascism, Imperialism, Nazi, Socialist, McCarthyism.

Some poster can dish it but can't take it.

And yes I'm a Liberal/Progressive and proud of it and yes I don't agree with Rand Paul nor what Snowden and Greenwald did.

[bobduca]

143. You can't claim "progressive" like wearing a junior varsity letterman jacket

Here is the difference with the labels that the folks who defend illegal NSA use, the names they use are ad hominems, and smears by associations, and other such weak rhetorical fallacies, that belie their failed, indefensible position.

Calling out the pro-government pro-nsa pro-partisans will you get into trouble with the keepers of the pom poms.

Socialist? Really? That's not an example of name calling unless you've been brought up on a steady diet of Fox News and Rightwing Talk radio...

McCarthyism exists, see this thread re: Smears by association, and maybe read some history. What happens to your perfect democratic partisan fantasies when the next republican inherits these expanded powers?

Oops!

[ucrdem]

113. LaRouchePac: "Constitutional Lawyer Bruce Fein Blasts Obama and Israel"

From a LaRouche newsletter, remarking on Fein's speech at LaRouche's Schiller Institute:

Constitutional Lawyer Bruce Fein Blasts Obama and Israel for Violating International Law with Syria Attack, Drone Kills
February 4, 2013 • 10:12AM

Constitutional lawyer and former top Reagan Justice Department official Bruce Fein, who addressed last weekend's Schiller Institute conference in New York City, has a letter to the editor of the Financial Times today, attacking U.S. and Israeli violations of international law. The full text reads:

Re: Israeli jets hit Syrian convoy as fears rise (News story, p.8, January 31, 2013)

Sir: . . .

http://larouchepac.com/node/25372

[Android3.14]

125. So what your saying then

If a man belongs to an organization you dislike, then it is okay for the government to spy on every man woman and child.
The stupid, it not only burns, but it's bipartisan.

[truth2power]

129. "The stupid, it not only burns, but it's bipartisan". Good one, Android...

but you'll never get through to them.

[ucrdem]

136. No, that isn't close to what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is that Bruce Fein speaks for Snowden, Rand Paul, and Lyndon LaRouche.

[muriel_volestrangler]

144. SPLC: Kincaid pushes conspiracy theories, demonizing propaganda, and lies about LGBT, Muslims, Dems

Cliff Kincaid

Date of Birth:
1954
Location:
Owings, MD.
Ideology:
Patriot Movement

For more than 30 years, Cliff Kincaid has been pushing out conspiracy theories, demonizing propaganda and a series of falsehoods about LGBT people, Muslims, Democrats and others — all as the editor of Accuracy in Media (AIM). But if there’s one thing Kincaid cannot be trusted on, it’s accuracy.

The notably humorless Kincaid embraces just about any theory that makes the “liberal” media and those it supposedly supports look bad. He says that President Obama has “well-documented socialist connections,” is the product of a “mysterious upbringing as a Muslim,” and may not have been born in this country. He claims that Hillary Clinton is a lesbian and that Clinton deputy White House counsel Vince Foster was murdered. He calls global warming a “fraudulent scheme.” The Roman Catholic Church, he asserts, has been hijacked by “Marxist elements” and is “facilitating the foreign invasion of the U.S.” by northbound Latinos. He insists that the governments of Canada, the United States and Mexico have a secret pact to merge into a single entity — the much-feared North American Union.
...
Much of Kincaid’s relentless polemicizing in recent years has been aimed at gay people. He blames gay men for corrupting the military and angrily complains that “establishment journalists are aligned with academia” (“sexual perverts masquerading as scholars”) in supporting transgender people. He has staunchly supported the Ugandan “Kill the Gays” law — a proposal Kincaid says is merely “designed to send a message to … the foreign homosexual lobby to keep their hands off Uganda’s families and kids.”

Most recently, Kincaid has jumped on the increasingly crowded anti-Muslim bandwagon. Last year, he was on a panel at a conference held by ACT! for America, an Islamophobic group, and also joined the board of directors of Stop the Islamization of Nations, run by hatemonger Pamela Geller.

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/profiles/cliff-kincaid

[ucrdem]

146. This thread is about Bruce Fein. nt

[muriel_volestrangler]

150. Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!

Your complete lack of self-awareness is beautiful.

You copy an editorial which is all an extended ad hominem attack on Snowden's father's attorney - not on what he's said for the father, but on what he's done in the past - and then, when something is pointed out about the author you copied, you whine "this thread is about Bruce Fein".


Waaah. Mommy. The bad man won't target the right person with the character assassination. He's attacking my scuzzball!!! Waaaah!!!!


OK, let's rip the piece-of-shit editorial you avidly copied to shreds:

We'll ignore the crap about Snowden's father, or his attorney. What the fuck has that to do with the NSA and their surveillance? How many degrees of separation do you need to use before you can link that to the actual story - the NSA?

Glenn Greenwald, the Guardian columnist behind Snowden’s disclosures, spoke at the “Socialism 2013” conference last Friday. He briefly discussed how he used “an encryption system” in his early discussions with Snowden and then received documents that made him “dizzy with ecstasy and elation, over what it is that he had.”

Oh noes - Greenwald talks to ... socialists!!!! Is that a problem for you? He discussed an encryption system! Well, since the USA is almost certainly monitoring all web traffic to and from Greenwald, given his opposition to the drone killings, this is a basic precaution. Hell, a lot of people say we should all, always, encrypt our internet traffic. After all, Google Street Maps were caught collecting wi-fi passwords, so you should assume there are dodgy players out there.

And - well, that's it. The rest is just about what people like the Pauls think. There's nothing there about the NSA, or about the surveillance.

[ProSense]

153. OK, that guy is a nut! n/t

[muriel_volestrangler]

155. You're aware he's the author of the OP, aren't you? (nt)

[ProSense]

157. Yeah,

and I unrec'd the thread.

I'm still not a fan of Bruce Fein. He supports Ron Paul, who I think is a racist kook. He criticizes every President except the one he worked for: Reagan. He's a hypocrite.

He aligns himself with kooks.

http://www.infowars.com/total-despotism-in-america-with-constitutional-lawyer-bruce-fein/
http://wp.alexjonespodcasts.com/april2012/bruce-fein

Alex Jones: http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/profiles/alex-jones

[ucrdem]

166. OP has been updated to omit to that souce. nt

[KharmaTrain]

151. More Reason For Snowden To Come Back To The U.S. And Face Trial...

...Fein is a high priced DC "gunslinger"...a man very well versed on the Fourth Amendment and surely one who would take this case and convince a jury of peers of Mr. Snowden's innocence as well as expose a lot of the deep dirty secrets that Mr. Snowden claims to know about. They could use discovery in the case to go after all sorts of people...NSA, DOJ, FBI...even subpoena the President to find out if he forced down Morales plane. Heck, I bet Bruce would take this one pro-bono...

[tpsbmam]

154. So "the likes" of Bernie Sanders, Alan Grayson, Diane Feinstein, etc are also full of shit?

I suspect these people know more about the issue than you do. Each of them and more legislators (I don't have time to seek more out) has spoken out confirming NSA spying on Americans:

Alan Grayson:

<snip>

The order itself was printed and posted at the website. Millions of people have seen it since then. What it purports to be—and I say, “purports to be” but in fact the agency involved, the NSA, has not denied that this is a valid, real document—it says that the court, having found application of the Federal Bureau of Investigation for an order requiring the production of tangible things from Verizon, specifically Verizon business network services, etc., etc., orders that the custodian of records produces not to the FBI, but to the National Security Agency, a component of the Defense Department, upon service of this order continued production on an ongoing, daily basis, thereafter for the duration of this order unless otherwise ordered by the court, an electronic copy of the following tangible things [gestures to board] right here take a look at it. These tangible things are identified in the order as follows: one, “all call detail records or telephony metadata created by Verizon for communications between the United States and abroad,” which sounds like it might be international, and two, “wholly within the United States, including local telephone calls.”

http://grayson.house.gov/media-center/press-releases/rep-grayson-nsa-surveillance-floor-speech


Bernie Sanders:

Bernie Sanders On NSA Leak Revelations: We're Heading For An 'Orwellian Future'
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/11/bernie-sanders-orwellian-future_n_3419173.html

Bernie Sanders Blasts NSA: "This Is Not Freedom."
http://www.progressive.org/bernie-sanders-blasts-nsa


Dianne Feinstein:

Dianne Feinstein Says NSA Phone Records Surveillance Has Thwarted Terrorism, 'But That's Classified'

Senate Intelligence Chair Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) said Thursday the National Security Agency program collecting domestic phone records has prevented terrorism. But she and other senators briefed on the program refused to delve into details about how it is used.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/06/dianne-feinstein-nsa_n_3399667.html


So all of these legislators are joining with LaRouche-ians and lying about NSA spying?

[idwiyo]

158. The creep, whose article you use in your OP, is the same creep who owns USASURVIVAL.org.

http://www.usasurvival.org/bio.html

ASI exposes the international communist movement. Our ongoing efforts include a project to educate the public about the influence and activities of Communist agents in America, including members of the terrorist Weather Underground and Frank Marshall Davis, who was Barack Obama's childhood mentor.

ASI has been warning of world government financed by global taxes for over 15 years. ASI President Cliff Kincaid wrote the books, Global Bondage (1995) and Global Taxes for World Government (1997). Our efforts have taken on added significance because of the Pope's embrace of a "World Political Authority.”

WOW, just WOW!

[klook]

159. "Impeach Cheney" by Bruce Fein

Impeach Cheney
The vice president has run utterly amok and must be stopped.

By Bruce Fein|
Posted Wednesday, June 27, 2007, at 5:06 PM
- Slate

Under Dick Cheney, the office of the vice president has been transformed from a tiny acorn into an unprecedented giant oak. In grasping and exercising presidential powers, Cheney has dulled political accountability and concocted theories for evading the law and Constitution that would have embarrassed King George III. The most recent invention we know of is the vice president's insistence that an executive order governing the handling of classified information in the executive branch does not reach his office because he also serves as president of the Senate. In other words, the vice president is a unique legislative-executive creature standing above and beyond the Constitution. The House judiciary committee should commence an impeachment inquiry. As Alexander Hamilton advised in the Federalist Papers, an impeachable offense is a political crime against the nation. Cheney's multiple crimes against the Constitution clearly qualify.

Take the vice president's preposterous theory that his office is outside the executive branch because it also exercises a legislative function. The same can be said of the president, who also exercises a legislative function in signing or vetoing bills passed by Congress. Under Cheney's bizarre reasoning, President Bush is not part of his own administration: The executive branch becomes acephalous. Today Cheney Chief of Staff David Addington refused to renounce that reasoning, instead laughably trying to diminish the importance of the legal question at issue.
more: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2007/06/impeach_cheney.html

I thought this guy looked familiar -- now I remember Bill Moyers interviewing him on his Journal:
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07132007/profile.html

From Moyers's web site:
"According to Fein, Cheney has:

• Asserted Presidential power to create military commissions, which combine the functions of judge, jury, and prosecutor in the trial of war crimes.


• Claimed authority to detain American citizens as enemy combatants indefinitely at Guantanamo Bay on the President's say-so alone.


• Initiated kidnappings, secret detentions, and torture in Eastern European prisons of suspected international terrorists.


• Championed a Presidential power to torture in contravention of federal statutes and treaties.


• Engineered the National Security Agency's warrantless domestic surveillance program targeting American citizens on American soil in contravention of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978.


• Orchestrated the invocation of executive privilege to conceal from Congress secret spying programs to gather foreign intelligence, and their legal justifications.


• Summoned the privilege to refuse to disclose his consulting of business executives in conjunction with his Energy Task Force.


• Retaliated against Ambassador Joseph Wilson and his wife Valerie Plame, through chief of staff Scooter Libby, for questioning the administration's evidence of weapons of mass destruction as justification for invading Iraq."

Seems like somebody who has head on straight to me.

[ucrdem]

163. Fein also drew up articles of impeachment against Barack Obama:

GOP lawyer drafts Obama impeachment | Ben Smith, Politico | April 06, 2011

A prominent libertarian constitutional lawyer and civil libertarian has drafted an article of impeachment against President Obama over his attack on Libya, throwing down a legal gauntlet that could be picked up by some Congressional Republicans

Bruce Fein, a former Reagan administration official in the Department of Justice and chairman of American Freedom Agenda writes in his 15-page argument of Obama's course that "Barack Hussein Obama has mocked the rule of law, endangered the very existence of the Republic and the liberties of the people, and perpetrated an impeachable high crime and misdemeanor."

Fein is a small-government conservative who worked on the impeachment of President Bill Clinton and also called for the impeachment of President George W. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney, and his work doesn't represent the Republican Party line. But it comes as some Republicans on the Hill, led by Senator Rand Paul, object vociferously to Obama's decision to strike targets in Libya without Congressional authorization.

"He's been more bold than any other president," said Fein, who said Obama has failed to secure congressional approval for his military action in a much more brazen way than previous administrations.


http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0411/GOP_lawyer_circulates_Obama_impeachment_articles.html

[idwiyo]

160. 14 people rec'ed an OP citing a nutjob who also wrote "Obama's Communist Connectons". Mind boggles!

Last edited Sat Jul 6, 2013, 04:17 PM - Edit history (2)

List of people who rec'ed this OP was removed as it served it purpose.

And here is the drivel Mr Kincaid writes:

[ucrdem]

164. Wrong, as usual. The OP has been updated to omit that source. nt

[idwiyo]

172. Nice backpedaling! Too bad I have a screenshot of the original drivel you posted. :)

Original OP:

[ucrdem]

176. Great, tape it to your fridge and read it every day until it sinks in. nt

[idwiyo]

196. Despite your enthusiastic endorsement of Mr Cliff Kincaid article, I'll pass. Both stink too much.

[ucrdem]

197. I believe you're the expert who posted links to USASURVIVAL.org:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3183965

Thanks for sharing.

[idwiyo]

201. Without your choice of OP I wouldnt ever known it existed. :puke:

Unfortunately one has to make sure there is enough evidence to support what I said about your choice of crap to post.

BTW, there is only one thing I did wrong. Should have posted a mangled URL, so it wouldn't link directly to that cesspool. I'll correct it now.
I stand by everything else I said about your 'fine' choice of drivel to post here.

[ucrdem]

202. Yes I'm sure. nt

[Bobbie Jo]

170. WTF is your deal?

The mob mentality on display here is fucking juvenile.

What an asinine post. Don't blame you for not liking the connection, but there it is nevertheless.

Embrace it.

[idwiyo]

173. You are welcome to keep embracing an article written by Cliff Kincaid. I'll pass.

[ucrdem]

177. You liked it so much you saved a screenshot but now you'll pass.

Right.

[idwiyo]

183. Made sure you don't weasel out of this one. :) Those screenshots do come handy!

Got more CT to link to?

[ucrdem]

184. Yes I'm sure you have quite a collection.

You and the plonker guy.

[idwiyo]

190. I am sorry your attempt at weaseling out didn't work.

[ucrdem]

193. I'm sorry your attempt at censoring threads that embarrass Rand Paul didn't work. nt

[Bobbie Jo]

179. Brilliant.

Don't quit your day job.

[idwiyo]

187. Next time you might actually READ what you recommend. You have no one but yourself to blame. :)

[Bobbie Jo]

189. How old are you?

Serious question.

[idwiyo]

191. Old enough to recognise hypocrisy when I see it.

[Bobbie Jo]

194. Uhuh

But your insight is woefully lacking.

Some people treat this board like a fucking video game. Play on, Garth.

[idwiyo]

199. Sorry you fucked up. ANYONE can do that. All you had to do was admit to it instead of going into

attack mode. Admitting to one's mistakes publicly is a quality worth admiring. Had you done that and asked me to take that screen-shot with your name on it down, I would have. Hell, you could have PMed me and I would have deleted the PM and taken the screen-shot down.

One of the things that I absolutely detest in politicians is when they friggin try to weasel out of their fuckups instead of at least admitting to their mistakes.
What I hate even more, when they bloody don't practice what they preach.

I am not a saint most definitely, and I don't demand anyone else behaves like one. Show me you (generic) have integrity and I will do my best to treat you with respect, regardless which side on the fence we are.

[ucrdem]

200. What are you talking about? If you don't have the decency to yank that stupid screen shot

you think anyone in their right mind is going to "PM" you? And let you post their PM and throw your stuff at it like a chimp in a zoo?



Really that's too funny.

[idwiyo]

206. No, it's not funny, it's very sad. I was dead serious when I wrote that all you had to do was admit

you made a mistake and I would have taken that screen-shot down.

I was also dead serious when I said I would have deleted all related PMs if you contacted me privately.
I am sorry if you had a bad experience with someone else.
I am even more sorry you think it would be normal thing to do to someone else.

It's even more sad that you appear to honestly believe there is no such thing as integrity left anywhere.

[ucrdem]

207. Your screenshot is outdated and absurd and only a fool would PM you. Sorry. nt

[idwiyo]

211. The screenshot record will stay where it is as a reminder of your hypocricy and lack of integrity.

[ucrdem]

214. So give yourself a loli. nt

[Bobbie Jo]

204. Here's another screen shot for you

Damn right I Rec'ed it, and I would rec it 1000 times over.

Bottom line...you people are so invested in turning a blind eye to the motivations and connections involved in this circus, because to recognize what has happened here would mean that you have either been thoroughly duped, or tacitly complicit.

Own it, you've earned it fair and square.

[ucrdem]

205. Thank you.

[idwiyo]

217. Thank you for admiting that you did rec an article written by someone you otherwise

would have denounced on the spot for been absolute and total nutjob.
Also thank you for implying that one can support a message but not a messenger.

All that's left now is for you to consistently apply what you preach to your behaviour towards your opponents.

Again, thank you. That takes guts and I admire it.

- and I mean it.

PS I updated my original post.

[ucrdem]

218. No one "admitted" any such thing and you're making a fool of yourself. nt

[Bobbie Jo]

221. Weak.

That superficial response reads like nanny nanny boo boo.


Done here.

[Savannahmann]

168. So now Snowden in addition to being unacceptable

over his pole dancing girlfriend, his decision to attempt to flee persecution, where he fled persecution to, and choosing Greenwald, is now blamed because an attorney who represented people we don't like is representing him?

Have you people actually thought about this stuff before you put it out there, or do you just pull it out of your ass and throw it as hard and fast as you can.

The Constitution says you get the right to an attorney. Sixth Amendment gang. The mere fact that one who will stand up for him, and is arguably pretty good, is a favorite of those groups who want smaller government is almost certain. The ACLU might represent him, but this lawyer made the effort.

There are few instances where intersections of belief are good things. You fight for Civil Liberties, and I argue for Civil Rights. In rare instances we are in agreement on certain specific cases. That doesn't diminish my argument, if anything, it strengthens, and gives it additional depth. There is an old saying, the high road, and the low road. If I get there by the high road, is the destination any less valid because you arrived by the other route?

The ACLU has defended Republicans in their right to free speech, First Amendment. That doesn't mean I reject the ACLU, it means that they stand up for the rights of all. When Libertarians and Liberals are in agreement, then perhaps the defenders of the authoritarian principles are the ones who need to reconsider. My argument is based upon the Bill of Rights, international conventions, and moral governance of the people by the people, and for the people. I don't care if yours is based upon the right of the individual for self determination. If you arrive at the right answer by the wrong road, and we can agree on one single point out of the millions we disagree upon, I'll take it that you are right on just one, and we'll work on you for the remaining points.

[ucrdem]

169. How many ways do you need to be told this is a RW bash that has NOTHING to do with your "rights"?

Zip, zilch, nada. It's all about 2014, 2016, and shitting on Obama, his agenda, and all things Democratic in the interim. And every let's-send-a-valentine thread in honor of Snowman / Sturtz / Medea / Greenwad / Manning / Assange / Schahill / Hedges / etc etc helps move the needle ever so slightly right-ward and that makes Rand, Jeb, and Paul Ryan very happy.

[Savannahmann]

171. Really?>

So the FISA court is not giving the authority to the FBI to collect all the meta data of my cell and internet activity? That has nothing to do with my civil rights? Do you know what Civil Rights are? They are those things we don't leave up to a local vote. If we did, then Segregation would still be the law of many states. But Civil Rights were applied to all citizens, and that was a proud moment in Liberal History.

Now, Liberals are arguing for Hoover's blackmail files writ large. Disgusting.

[ucrdem]

175. Civil rights are also voting rights and if there were 1% of the outrage about the recent SC decision

striking down a key provision of the 1965 Voting Rights Act as about Snowball's rightwad adventures I'd be very surprised. More on that decision:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/06/25/us/annotated-supreme-court-decision-on-voting-rights-act.html?_r=0

[Progressive dog]

188. ^^K&R^^

[Savannahmann]

222. We have spoken out against it.

There are petitions signed calling on congress to address the issue. There are denunciations of the Supreme Court. There is a big fuck difference. First, the deliberations and arguments for the Supreme Courts Decision is public record. Second. There is a chance to again visit the issue in the Congress, which has previously passed the reauthorizations in public view. Third. The debate is being held in the public, by the public, and by the representatives of the public.

Nice effort to derail the argument that was not going your way however. Better luck next time.

[deurbano]

219. Isn't this attorney representing Snowden's FATHER?

So, even less relevant than you have already noted. (More shooting the messenger...)

[ucrdem]

220. Apparently he's written to Holder in defense of Eddie and helped père write this "open letter"

published naturally in the UK Guardian:

Edward Snowden's father writes open letter to NSA whistleblower in Moscow
guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 2 July 2013


Lon Snowden pens open letter with his attorney in response to a statement issued by his son Edward Snowden from Moscow

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/02/edward-snowden-father-open-letter

[markiv]

180. OH BOY, THAT'S GUILT BY ASSOCIATION!!!!!

now I KNOW Snowden is a bad man!!!!

[ucrdem]

182. Great, you're catching on.

Better late than never.

[markiv]

185. thanks, Senator McCarthy would be proud of you

and your work

[Bobbie Jo]

192. Tell this guy

With the asinine "list."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3184486

Some people need a new hobby.

[burnodo]

186. You recced your own thread??

How totally lame

[ucrdem]

195. Glad you found something to be outraged about. nt

[ucrdem]

198. BREAKING: Bruce Fein speaks -- on the Ron Paul forum!

Rand Paul revives the Fourth Amendment

by Bruce Fein
2:04 PM 06/18/2013

To borrow from the British sage Samuel Johnson, Andrew McCarthy expounding on the Fourth Amendment is like a dog walking on his hind legs. It is not done well, but you are surprised to find it done at all.

In a recent National Review article, McCarthy sneers at Senator Rand Paul’s assertion of a “natural right” to the privacy of telephone usage records from government snooping absent probable cause to suspect crime or espionage. McCarthy’s rejection of “natural rights” betrays ignorance of the Declaration of Independence, which provided the philosophical background for the Constitution. Among other things, the Declaration maintains: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men …”

In other words, individuals enjoy a natural right to liberty, including the right to be left alone — the most cherished right among civilized people. Governments are established to secure that right, not to destroy it. Accordingly, citizens are endowed with a right to keep telephone usage records secret from the eyes of government. Big Brother must justify every invasion of that privacy, which Senator Paul’s proposed “Fourth Amendment Restoration Act of 2013” would require.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?418671-Bruce-Fein-Rand-Paul-revives-the-Fourth-Amendment

Yay, our freedumbs are safe with Rand!!

[Cali_Democrat]

226. Good find. n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

213. Dear OP, McCarthyite tactics require much more skill and self control than you

possess, you are among the worst I have seen. You should seek other modalities.

[flamingdem]

227. unwarranted nasty comment nt

[flamingdem]

230. nice thread

[ucrdem]

232. Thank you!

Don't stay away too long fd . . .

[flamingdem]

235. I'm lurking again

.. recovering slowly like the Aflac duck or something

[ucrdem]

236. Sooo glad to hear it flamingdem!

the place ain't the same without you . . .

[Cha]

233. Roach Libertarian Propaganda..

thank you for this, ucr.

[ucrdem]

234. Thanks Cha!

People believe the most unlikely stories. I'm pretty certain l'affaire Snowden was engineered specifically to bring out the worst in certain Dem voters. Pat Buchanan's ever-reliable Southern Strategy in action. Never fails.