Scream, Zimmerman, Scream!

[gort]

Gee, I wonder if Zimmerman's defense team will end all speculation by having their client scream on the stand?

If they are so sure it's George screaming in the 911 calls, why not have him do a repeat performance of him screaming for his life? Just asking.

[pnwmom]

1. I suspect he would have no problem squealing. n/t

[southerncrone]

2. Cuz that would make it very clear that it

isn't him on the tape. Not.gonna.happen.

[WinkyDink]

11. I think the OP's "Gee" signaled sarcasm. :-)

[gort]

17. I am usually sarcastic. :)

So yes I am guilty of forgetting to use the sarcasm thingy.

[southerncrone]

21. I recognized that.

[JI7]

3. i was actually wondering about this also, the scream sounds like a younger voice to me

and just thinking about hot it suddenly stopped after the gun shot

[gort]

5. That is where I am at

It made no sense to me that if someone has a gun and they are screaming for their life that they would immediately stop as they pulled the trigger

Oh, yeah the "screaming" guy with the gun also had his mouth and nose covered while having his head pounded into the pavement and there was also a struggle over his holstered gun. How many hands did Trayvon have?

[MH1]

10. I agree with all your other points, but

I think if I am afraid for my life, pull a gun and shoot the guy who has me afraid for my life, I would probably stop being afraid and stop screaming if I knew I got off a direct shot right at his chest.

Oh, I think Z is guilty as sin but after much thought, I don't think the scream ending with the shot 100% proves the scream was Trayvon's, although it seems likely.

On the other hand, in my view of the case, it is barely relevant who was screaming at that point, except to the emotions of the jurors. I don't see any doubt that Z caused the confrontation in the first place, which makes him guilty of manslaughter at the very least.

I also think the scream sounds like a young person (not that Z is very old from where I sit), and that it would make no sense for Z to be screaming when he is the one with the gun, who started this whole thing in the first place.

[graham4anything]

4. Obviously it was NOT Zimmy's scream. But a scream of someone who was seconds from dying.

and Obviously Zim will never testify for a million reasons, this being one of them.

I would see Zim begging for a plea before he would testify.

And if he doesn't testify, the jury will ask, why didn't he testify.

[WinkyDink]

12. "if he doesn't testify, the jury will ask, why didn't he testify." = A point they will explicitly

be told NOT to consider.

No defendant needs take the stand, and no jury is to infer anything from that decision.

[graham4anything]

13. but I bet every jury does and this one will. I myself rooting for guilty, max sentence, no parole.

[customerserviceguy]

15. Exactly correct

It's completely standard to let a defendant allow his/her attorney(s) to do all the talking in the defense portion of the trial, and it's considered dirty pool for the prosecution to make anything out of that. Under our system of law, the state must prove its case, the defendant is not required to prove innocence.

If the prosecution made any attempt to do that, I'd expect the judge to declare a mistrial on the spot. Since O'Mara already knows 100% of the prosecution strategy, that would probably end things right there, as I don't think there would be a retrial.

[magical thyme]

61. the prosecution won't make anything out of it. but they won't have to.

The only person who can explain why Zimmerman felt in fear for his life is Zimmerman. If he chooses not to get up and explain that, the jury will make of it what they will, regardless of instructions.

They won't discuss it, because they'll be told not to consider it. But that doesn't mean his silence won't speak volumes to them.

[brush]

36. But they will. nt

[davidpdx]

6. I am 99.9% sure they won't put him on the stand

I don't think he'd be reliable nor could he hold his temper during cross.

[Judi Lynn]

7. He couldn't do it, even if someone showed up to hold a gun on him while he tried.

Very refreshing seeing your idea! Good to hear from the sane world at D.U.!

[BellaKos]

8. Well, we all now know

that central Florida is the place to commit murder, because, apparently, people get away with it all the time.

[yardwork]

42. It depends on who is murdered.

The police didn't even try to find Martin's parents and notify them that their son was dead.

[pintobean]

43. How do you come to that conclusion?

Detective Serino testified that he was focusing on identifying TM at the time of his first interview with GZ. That was around midnight, if I remember correctly.

Martin's body was taken to the morgue, where he was tagged as a John Doe as he was not carrying any identification.[22] Martin's father, Tracy Martin, called to file a Missing Persons report early on February 27 and police officers arrived at his fiancée's condo with photographs of his dead son about 9:20 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#Sanford_Police_Investigation

[yardwork]

44. A seventeen year old is shot dead in his own apartment complex and the police don't even try to find

his parents that night. They tag his body as a John Doe and put him in the morgue. No knocking on doors in the neighborhood, nothing. They wait for his father to file a Missing Persons report/

If he had been white the police would have found his parents that night.

[pintobean]

45. It wasn't his own apartment complex.

He was visiting during a school suspension. He lived in the Miami area. I would imagine that police asked all the witnesses if they knew who he was, or if they had ever seen him around before. I can't imagine them going door to door that night, saying "there's a dead teen in the courtyard, are you missing anyone?", regardless of race.
You've gone from "didn't even try" to not to your satisfaction, apparently to make a racism accusation.

[BellaKos]

47. Also ... Caylee Anthony nt

[John2]

9. I've had that same thought

and actually disagreed with the FBI expert. Even though, you don't have a sample from Trayvon, you still have Zimmerman there.

I don't see why Zimmerman couldn't give different samples of his voice in different situations. If that sound came from him, I don't see why he couldn't reproduce it. Yet the FBI expert, claims it can't be done. And he is one of the most renowned experts in the field. So it would be hard to challenge him.

[Duckwraps]

14. I see no need to put him on the stand

given the statements he has already made. Why risk it? I guess we will have to wait and see.

[Shrek]

16. Can someone help me out?

I haven't been following the trial all that closely, so I'm not sure why the source of the scream is significant. But both the prosecution and defense called witnesses to testify about it, and I've read a lot of commentary about it here.

How does it relate to the shooting? Does it have any bearing on reasonable doubt?

[lumpy]

20. I guess because Zimmerman was fighting for his life he was screaming.

Martin, it appears was fighting for HIS life. More likely it was Martin screaming.

[ker0412]

24. Scream Significance

Knowing who screamed is very significant because it could tell who was afraid for their life at that last moment before the shot fired. If Trayvon screamed then the jury might be able to better determine that Trayvon was not so much as an aggressor as the defense portrays.

[Thinkingabout]

51. Z knbew he had a gun, Martin did not have a gun, now which one would one conclude was scared

for their life?

[Union Scribe]

18. If the scream doesn't fit, you must not acquit! nt

[UTUSN]

19. R#7 & K for, excellent point. That STOLID DOLT is not capable of the high pitched scream besides

that it would not fit his self-image of identifying with the being-in-control. He's a wannabe/JohnWAYNE cop (failed).

That he's willing to claim it was him screaming just shows what a moral VOID he has.

[ker0412]

22. Wouldnt make any difference

This wouldn't prove anything I believe because there are too many factors that'd bring speculation and so forth. He'd definitely try too hard to make the exact sound....many could repeat the same sound. A scream for your life is not like any other scream...period.

[Nevernose]

23. Originally Z denied it was his scream

It wasn't until later, when he'd talked to his judge-father and his lawyer that he realized that to prove self-defense it would have to be his own scream.

It was either a grown man screaming like a boy, or an actual boy. My money is on the actual boy who was killed being the one screaming like a boy afraid for his life.

But that probably makes me a gun-grabbing black racist, right? At least according to a vocal minority on the Internet, aided by Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh.

[ker0412]

25. NO NO NO!!!

Don't get me started with Glen & Rush....OMG!! Crocks!

[Just Saying]

27. When he spoke to the police

He said something like that doesn't sound like me when they played him the 911 call with the screaming.

[Just Saying]

31. How you took it doesn't mean that's how he meant it.

Anyway I was just answering your question.

People can judge for themselves and see how they take it.

Recording 6, starts about 16:45 but the whole thing is interesting. Cops ask him how he can be screaming if he's being smothered.

http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/audio/george-zimmermans-statements-sanford-pd-audio/

[Raine1967]

50. This kinda disputes the idea that GZ hasn't changed his story.

not just kinda... GZ changes his story. From what actually happened on the 911 call to what he said to LE and now wrt to what his defense is presenting.

Zimmerman has changed his story.

[hfojvt]

56. yeah, and that is NOT him saying it was not him

that is him making a comment about how "even though I know that was me, that does not even sound like me".

Many people hear their voice on tape and say "is that how I sound?"

[Just Saying]

62. Again that's YOUR interpretation of what he said.

It could just as easily be him denying it was him. Perhaps he was making a comment about "that's not me but since it will help get me off for shooting that unarmed kid I better say it is."

Dd you listen to the audio? It sounds like the police don't even believe its him nor do they believe his story that he was being suffocated at the same time.

We can keep up with the "yes it was" "no it wasn't" but in the end we can all read into his words what we like. Make no mistake I believe he's guilty and you feel otherwise.

[hfojvt]

64. no, that is an actual fact

saying "that doesn't even sound like me"

is simply NOT the same thing as saying "that is not me".


Therefore, it is a fact that he never "denied that it was him". He simply didn't make such a denial. To say that he did is to twist and spin what he actually said.

[Just Saying]

65. No your opinion about what someone said

Isn't a fact. It's your opinion. We all have them.

Deal with it.

[hfojvt]

66. I know what opinions are

and when somebody says "It doesn't even look like X is greater than 3" is simply not the same thing as saying "X is not greater than 3".

See how that works? YOU are the one with the OPINION that when Zimmerman said X that he REALLY meant Y.

But it remains a fact that he really did NOT say Y. He said something that you are claiming is the equivalent of Y. You have the opinion that X means Y. That is MUSt mean Y.

I am stating the fact that he never said Y. And that remains a fact.

He didn't say what you said he did, he said something else. Something you are twisting so that you can call him a liar.

That doesn't look very honest to me, no matter how stubbornly you cling to your opinion as being just as good as my fact.

[Just Saying]

67. Okay let's review.

What you said was that Z didn't say it wasn't him. Then you went into a story about what he actually meant-that he didn't recognize his own voice on tape-your OPINION (look I can use cap locks!) That's the same exact thing as hearing Z say "that doesn't even sound like me" and having the OPINION that he meant because it wasn't him.

Also if you actually read my posts I said what he said on tape (from memory so might not be verbatim) and I posted audio. I posted facts for you and others to interpret. Still doesn't make anyone's opinion on what he MEANT a fact.

I never once said he said it wasnt his voice. Not once. I said it could be what he meant agreeing with thr orignal poster who did say that. I suggested perhaps he was covering his ass. those were my opinions and i never suggested otherwise. I posted your FACT before you and without an opinion attached and a link to audio. I've been nothing but honest.

I'll await your apology after you read the thread and what I actually posted.

From my post #27

He said something like that doesn't sound like me when they played him the 911 call with the screaming.

Then I posted again with the audio and said people could judge for themselves. (The guy asking questions must have been banned.)

Then you posted this: ( bold is your opinion of what he meant. )

hfojvt (31,629 posts)
56. yeah, and that is NOT him saying it was not him

that is him making a comment about how "even though I know that was me, that does not even sound like me".

[Nevernose]

32. In his initial interview

I'm one of those folks who believe "PC" is important.

However, unless you are autistic, it is painfully clear that in his initial police interview, i.e. taking into account both tone and context, "that doesn't even sound like me" is a denial.

It wasn't until later that he decided it was himself. All of this was played in open court for the jury.

[Vattel]

34. Nah, it wasn't a denial. Just an expression of surprise.

The first officer at the scene heard Zimmerman say he had been yelling for help. Would he have made up a lie that fast? And given that Martin had been on top of him throwing punches, it seems more likely that it was him yelling for help. And he did pass a lie detector test. And when Serino tried to trick him by telling him that there was a videotape of the whole fight, he immediately expressed relief. And Martin's father initially said it wasn't Martin screaming. And Zimmerman has a pretty high voice anyways.

Tons of reasonable doubt.

[Nevernose]

37. You still haven't addressed what Z said

During the police interrogation.

Lets say he was mistaken about that. Just a mistake in his recounting.

How do you logically explain all of Z's other inconsistencies? Either he was inconsistent a lot, and with the physical evidence, or he's lying.

[hfojvt]

57. all he said was

"that doesn't even sound like me"

Which anybody might say upon hearing a tape of themself. He never said "that's not me".

As for inconsistencies, I have often noted that people seem to misremember things. Heck, I often misremember or forget things. My former supervisor had this habit of showing up when I was on break and asking me what I did in the first two hours, and I could never remember, For one thing, because I go through my shift keeping in mind what I still need to to. Not what has been done, but what still needs to be done, and then sometimes, because I have done this job for over a decade, I cannot remember if it was yesterday or today. Did I mop the raquetball court today? I can remember mopping it, but was that yesterday or today? When you are scrambling around, you can forget.

[Azathoth]

33. He never denied it. It's just another invented "story change"

Fabricating "inconsistencies" and "story changes" out of whole cloth has become something of a cottage industry here on DU.

[brush]

38. He said on the tape "that doesn't sound like me."

Sounds like a denial to me. He would know if he screamed.

Or maybe they took turns screaming and he thought that scream was Trayvon's (sarcasm of course).

There was only one person screaming and if it was zimmy he would have said so then, not later when it became something that could keep him out of jail.

Funny thing about taped conversations. You can deny them all you want later but the words never change.

[Azathoth]

40. It doesn't sound like a denial as far as the English language is concerned

"That doesn't even sound like me" and "I wasn't the one screaming" are two completely different ideas. They are not synonymous, and one does not follow from the other. Zimmerman did not deny screaming.

[brush]

41. Sounds like someone's in denial. nt

[Azathoth]

48. You're right. Clearly the English language is in denial n/t

[gollygee]

49. Oh please, now come on.

"That doesn't even sound like me" means "How could you even think that was me? Of course it isn't me."

[Azathoth]

54. No, that's reading into it

"That doesn't even sound like me" expresses incredulity at what he is hearing since he clearly doesn't recognize the sounds. It is not a denial that he was the one screaming. People who *want* to hear him deny it so they can cite another "story change" will make the leap, the same way they will hear 'coons' instead of an unintelligible noise. But Z's words are not linguistically, logically, or idiomatically equivalent to "Of course that isn't me."

[brush]

59. Okay. If you say so. nt

[Vattel]

60. The discussion of the Zimmerman trial is full of interesting linguistic claims.

I have learned that the expression "creepy ass cracker" is not a racial slur. On the contrary, one poster suggested that it is practically a term of endearment. I have also been told that it is insensitive to call someone a "retard," but not insensitive to call someone's behavior "retarded." (Jaentel did the latter but not the former.)

[99th_Monkey]

29. Wouldn't it need to be a recording, with similar equipment used on the day of Trayvon's death?

i.e. on the audio equipment used by local 911/police audio-feeds that produced
the audio clip in question?

If I were the prosecution, I'd probably ask for just such a trial run, except
that it would no doubt give Zimmerman ample time to imitate the recording,
so probably not feasible.

[mindwalker_i]

30. The chair!

The CHAIR!

[reusrename]

35. It's God will that he won't testify.

There's no way a person could make that sound while their finger was on the trigger of a gun pointed at the kid's heart.

It just doesn't even make a little bit of sense.

What could Zimmerman possibly be afraid of while he shoots the kid?

[brush]

39. Exactamundo! nt

[Grammy23]

46. I was an eye witness when a co-worker was murdered (shot to death) by her husband.

I was very nearly a victim of this man's actions but was outside of the house where it took place. I was briefly inside of the house when their argument began but felt "uncomfortable" with the nature of the conversation so I backed out of the house onto the porch to give them privacy. I had NO inkling that her husband had a weapon and I think she didn't either.

Shortly after that she stepped to the door and asked me to get the police. (This was in the 90s and neither of us had a cell phone.) She threw her car keys toward me and wanted me to go up the street to a convenience store to call the police. On reflection, I think that he may have pulled the gun out at that point and she incorrectly concluded that he would not use it.

Before I could do that I heard the first gunshot. I was so confused it took me a second or two to realize it was a gunshot. Once I figured out it was a gunshot, at that moment that I began SCREAMING, "He's shooting her." I also began running out of the yard looking for a place to hide/to find someone to call the police. I was looking back as I ran and saw her fall out of the door, fatally wounded, shot in the heart. She had ZERO chance to live but I had no way of knowing that at the time. She fell out into the yard and died there although she was transported to a near-by hospital where she was pronounced dead.

I screamed as loud as I could until I got out of that yard. I have a vivid memory of how loud I was screaming. On reflection later that day, I was surprised by how loud and frantic my screams were. In fact, my throat was sore for days afterward just from the force of screaming. My legs were also sore because I went from standing still to a full run in mere seconds with no warm up.

I had always wondered what I would do if confronted with REAL danger and I found out that day. I SCREAMED bloody murder, which in that case was the truth. YOU know if you screamed and you know how loud and forcefully you screamed. It is indelibly etched on my brain how I screamed that day because I was truly afraid for my co-worker as well as for myself.

If Zimmerman has no recall of how he reacted he is either willfully not remembering or he was NOT the one screaming. I believe it was NOT Zimmerman screaming on those tapes and have always thought it sounded like a young person.

That's just my two cents on this. I realize that one person's experience does not cover the sum of all experiences but since we're putting out our "opinions" on this, I thought I'd add mine and my personal experience with screaming out of fear for your life.

[Raine1967]

52. I know of what you speak.

My experience was of a domestic violence nature, between my parents. I knew who did the screaming that night. One of the people was me. I remember my scream. (In my case there was no death)

I remember.

I agree with your assessment.

[hedgehog]

53. The comment about the strain on the vocal cords is very significant -

an excellent catch!

[wercal]

55. Evgen though you're kidding...

The prosecution's own witness stated that life or death screaming is distorted in a manner that cannot be replicated, sans life or death style fear.

[Grammy23]

58. I think it would be pointless to have Zimmerman try to replicate what he says were his screams.....

He could modulate his voice louder or softer to align with what he thinks would fit his narrative of the events. Personally, I think it would be all but impossible to recreate the loudness and force of screams that occur under a real life event VS. recreated. I know how I screamed but am not sure I could duplicate it even for a trial. My screams were spontaneous and directly related to the amount of fear I felt at that moment. And, as I said, Zimmerman would be in total control of how he made the sound. PLUS, for comparison's sake, we do not have the ability to let Trayvon Martin do the same thing for us. Therefore, it is pretty much a mute point to say he could give us a demonstration of how he screamed that night.

[gort]

63. Thank you for that

It also brings up another point. I seem to recall Mr Zimmerman in the police taped reenactment appear to have no trouble talking. I have screamed myself hoarse before, thankfully not due to a traumatic experience such as yours, and it was very difficult to talk for up to a day afterward.

I know I am being an armchair detective, but I see no reason why a person who knows he has a weapon with a round chambered would be in fear of his life unless the gun was taken away and they struggled over it. No Martin DNA on Zimmerman's Gun.