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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI think Snowden has a way out now
I have already stated what I think of the guy and I hope he ends up in the US to answer for his crimes. But realistically, I think he has a way out now (other than accepting Ana Chapman's marriage proposal, which is what he ought to do.)
Anyway,Nicaragua and Venezuela have offered asylum. But like most countries they require the applicant to ask for it on their sovereign soil. This, however, includes embassies. Putin has already said a diplomatic car from the airport to an embassy would still allow him to continue to say he didn't let Snowden enter Russia. If the Nicaraguans send a car for him, take him to their embassy, grant him asylum and then issue him a passport, then fly him directly to Managua (which I think is logistically possible), he's made it.
cali
(114,904 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)idwiyo
(5,113 posts)one to fly without even leaving airport.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)the embassies in question? I could find out, butane you or someone else has it at the ready.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)arely staircase
(12,482 posts)I guess they are probably all in the same area?
morningfog
(18,115 posts)I also think Venezuela is the more likely attempt.
idwiyo
(5,113 posts)Absolutely nothing stops any country from issuing temporary papers to anyone. There is no international law that prohibits it. I doubt there is an international law that states 'ye shall go to consulate first to obtain refugee status or it doesn't count'. It's up to a particular country to decide how they grant the status.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)Venezuela already said he had to and Nicaragua said certain conditions had to be met and I assume this is what they mean.
Ecuador said the same thing. But that was different because even if they had granted it, it was too long a flight for a non-stop.
idwiyo
(5,113 posts)considered acceptable as this would be a diplomatic car.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)as far as him travelling with the papers earlier, yeah, that got him to the Moscow airport and no further. the point is a country that will let him stay that is in non-stop flying distance.
idwiyo
(5,113 posts)quinnox
(20,600 posts)we shall see. I'm not convinced he is scot-free yet, the USA has a lot of tricks up its sleeves, as would be expected by the Worlds number one power. I hope he does find political asylum though. But the USA might still get him before that happens, unfortunately. This is a fascinating story to watch in any case.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)to do all of those things as opposed to just saying it. the Nicaraguans said "certain conditions" had to be met. If that just means fulfilling a being on Nicaraguan soil to apply, the embassy covers that. it also hinges on them having a plane that can fly from Moscow to Managua - and I don't know if they do.
But the US has many economic cards to play short of embargoes (which I don't think we'd be willing to do against Venezuela over this). Nicaragua maybe.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)In order to get out of the airport to enter Russia Snowden has to have a passport to get thru customs. And also I believe he has to have a visa to enter Russia.
Until Snowden is able to get his papers in order he will be confined to his room in the locked wing of the hotel.
Security guards and cameras watch the people on that floor of the locked wing.
And even the elevators are locked on that floor.
IF he were to get out of the airport - somehow - he would be legally 'in Russia'.
Then the Russians could pick him up and detain him.
HipChick
(25,485 posts)Even if the US does not get him now, they will get him eventually...Intelligence/Black Ops prob have a target on his back
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)arraignment before a federal judge on espionage charges. I was just looking at it in a bonehead game theory way. He does at least theoretically have two things now: countries willing to let him apply for asylum that are ALSO in non-stop flying distance. Question is, are those countries serious about helping him or just mouthing off. It was easy for Ecuador because they could always say they would do it but fall back on, well there is no way for him to get here. Venezuela and Nicaragua can actually come through if they mean it.
flamingdem
(39,321 posts)But he will have to live with paranoia all his life
In caracas it could be passed off as street crime pretty easily. .. That is if he ever goes out again
But yay and all!
Whisp
(24,096 posts)even if they didn't have anything to do with it at all.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)I don't have a link but I am pretty sure about that. If Ecuador had done it, they still couldn't have gotten him to Ecuador - too far.
Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)-snip-
Russian officials have kept Snowden at arm's length since he landed from Hong Kong on June 23, saying the transit area where passengers stay between flights is neutral territory and he will be on Russian soil only if he goes through passport control.
-snip-
http://in.reuters.com/article/2013/07/04/usa-security-russia-idINDEE9630C220130704
I haven't seen anything yet about an 'embassy car' but would like to see it if you happen to come across the link.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)arely staircase
(12,482 posts)Officials in Russia, which has made clear it wants Snowden to leave, say an embassy car would be considered foreign territory if a country picked him up.
http://www.voanews.com/content/snowden-aslym-options-dwindle-reuters/1693620.html
Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)Wonder if he could get to the car though without going thru customs first.
So many questions without answers still
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)they want him gone and are willing to do anything short of handing him over to us. that has to be his biggest fear too. a backroom deal between the Russians and the US. How is this? Sure Mr. Snowden here is your car to the Nicaraguan Embassy. What are they really up to would go through my mind.
Incitatus
(5,317 posts)I wonder if there's a way to transport him from the airport to an Ecuador ship in International waters and of that would legally give him safe passage
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)I think.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Everything goes through Havana.
cali
(114,904 posts)And why couldn't he get a visa subsequent to that?
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)if they gave him the passport, flew him to Caracas he could ask for asylum then. no need for the embassy trip.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)Now that he has secured asylum, he is probably on his way to Venezuela or Nicaragua, depending on his choice. China never had a problem with him leaving because they rejected the extradition request from us. I believe there are direct flights from Hong Kong to Caracas so there would be no need to stop in any other country to refuel nor request flight space over other countries because mostly the flight will be over the ocean. Now I don't know if any airline does it, but it could work if they do.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)But would Putin be playing along and pretending he is there?
Cleita
(75,480 posts)My thought is that when the news surfaced that Snowden was in fact holed up in the transit zone of the Moscow airport, he got his goons to thoroughly search everything there and learn everything they could from everybody, workers, maids and passengers. He is KGB. He is able to. He is Putin. There seems to have been nothing. No one has seen Snowden unless he's invisible. They didn't find anything. But by that time, Pooty had made some TV appearances indicating he seemed to know about it, so he couldn't just come out and say , we don't know where he is.
So he just pretended that he wanted him out of the country. He wasn't going to extradite him from the transit zone because supposedly it is verboten. Really? If he could have gotten his hands on him and his lap tops you can be sure Snowden would be in Siberia by now and our secrets would be neatly filed in the Kremlin under bribery and blackmail as needed. But he's just playing the I have washed my hands of this in public and I really don't know anything game. But I'm sure he has been in touch with Maduro and Morales over the developments and is very interested in the outcome.
Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)HipChick
(25,485 posts)Trust me its no guarantee..
Cleita
(75,480 posts)Look at the Google and it seems there are many airlines that do it mostly American ones so that's a problem.
Robb
(39,665 posts)I got burned with Assange.
...Although I maintain the enormous diplomatic pouch is a brilliant if untested tactic which may yet have some application for young Snowden.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)Stupid Snowden
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)she is already a TV personality there and they could totally be the Russian Kardashians (spy-style.)
galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)when he lights, you will know.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)The problem being he can't board a plane until a destination country will accept him.
Fortunately for Snowden, Obama's ham-fisted actions in forcing down President Morales's plane has resulted in asylum offers from Latin American countries. Way to go Obama!
Aeroflot has several flights weekly Moscow to Havana. Airbus 330s axnd Boeing 767s. Either makes the flight non-stop. Once in Havana, Snowden can visit the embassy of his choice and file asylum papers. Then simply get aboard a plane to Venezuela or Nicaragua.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)with the US. Not to mention a government working like never before to improve relations with the US.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)They have cooperated with the US in some cases, not in others. There are many US fugitives in Cuba they refuse to extradict. And if Snowden is met at the plane by Venezuelan officials, Cuba will not interfere. Cuba and Venezuela are on good terms.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)and if they didn't, or were unwilling to enforce it, why isn't he there now drinking a Cuba Libre or making his connecting flight to Ecuador or Bolivia?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_extradition_treaties
http://www.mcnabbassociates.com/Cuba%20International%20Extradition%20Treaty%20with%20the%20United%20States.pdf
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Epic Fail!
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)you think Castro signed off on the Guantanamo naval base? The treaty is still in effect. Now you are right that he could decline to enforce it. Which gets back to my question of why he hasn't. Any thoughts? Why isn't Snowden doing the Salsa in Havana or at least waiting for his connection to Bolivia?
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)There is no extradition treaty currently in effect, nor has there been for 50+ years.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)and even if I am right the government there clearly enforces the treaty how they see fit. Which still leaves the question, why hasn't he travelled through there on his way to Ecuador or Bolivia? Now he needs a passport or other valid travel documents. Ecuador isn't going to do it having been burned once already. But Bolivia could do it. And Venezuela could do it and one assumes they will if they are serious about the asylum. However I think he can fly directly to Venezuela from Moscow in which case Cuba becomes a moot point.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)There is no US Embassy. Swiss embassy handles US diplomatic communications with Cuba. Sometimes they turn over a fugitive, sometimes not. Its on a case by case basis...no treaty involved. I know this for fact. It comes up in local news on yearly basis when a wanted person flees to Cuba. Last year a couple who kidnapped their sons from state custody fled to Cuba. Guy had a history of drugs and violence, so Cuba was all too eager to return them. OTOH, a guy I barely knew in Sarasota embezzled a bunch of money 20 years ago and fled to Cuba. Hes still there.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_Cuba_have_an_extradition_treaty_with_the_United_States
even if enforced at said government's convenience. so there is on paper but in reality not so much. and of course the US doesn't abide by it either. For instance the right wing terrorist who blew up the Cuban jetliner who was also a big friend of Poppy Bush.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Cuba may or may not extradict a fugitive at their discretion. Same goes with US. There are plenty of Cuban fugitives here. The general recent trend is to return fugitives wanted for violent or drug crimes, and give asylum to others. I can only speculate, but I think Cuba didn't offer asylum to Snowden b/c his computer skills worried them. Cuba is thumbs down on internet activity by its citizens.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)nt
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)no current extradition treaty:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_CUBA_have_extradition_treaty_with_the_US?r2a=1#page2
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)arely staircase
(12,482 posts)one.
more importantly the state department says there is.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Been defunct since Castro took over. How many times do i have to explain?
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)and no matter who signed it, all it takes is one party to say "we're no longer abiding by the treaty" and its done. Treaties are made and broken all the time. They aren't carved in stone. They only exis fort as long as both parties want them to.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)arely staircase
(12,482 posts)he may have, but I honestly don't remember ever reading he voided all treaties with the US. I know he specifically did not void the one that gives the US the right to use Guantanamo Bay as a naval station. But obviously that would be a lot harder. The Castro government did sign a specific agreement with the US to deal with hijackings in the late 60s early 70s to deal with the rash of planes forced to go there. "Take this plane to Cuba" entered the national lexicon at the time.
former9thward
(32,080 posts)Cuba has refused all requests to extradite them. http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/05/31/3424972/state-department-havana-provides.html
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)and either stayed or made a connecting flight to Bolivia or Ecuador?
former9thward
(32,080 posts)I think there are a lot of moving parts here and a lot of behind the scenes negotiations.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)Cuba doesn't want him. They don't even want him passing through.
former9thward
(32,080 posts)Including people on the FBIs 10 most wanted. Ok.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)I will concede Cuba enforces said treaty at their convenience. But the fact those others haven't been extradited would make it seem like Snowden could go there. Yet he hasn't, which leads me back to he probably isn't welcome.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)He can't board a plane until a country has indicated they will accept him. Now that a couple have, it is no problem to fly to Havana, and on to his destination from there.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)he has no passport, but the bolivian's could issue him one.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)...he can't leave Moscow. Cuba doesn't want him (evidently), he wouldn't be permitted to hang in limbo at Havana airport. Now that a country has accepted him, there is no reason Cuba wouldn't allow him to change planes in Havana.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)I made it in a reply to another of your posts and will ignore this subthread now so we aren't carrying on the same conversation in two places.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/snowden-makes-six-new-asylum-applications-wikileaks-says/2013/07/05/9e6417f4-e5b3-11e2-80eb-3145e2994a55_story.html
It still depends on Russia and solving the travel problem.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)at least they have said that anonymously off the record. real question is do the Venezuelans really back up their talk?
But they could make it happen. Asylum granted at embassy, passport issued and off to the Bolivarian People's Republic for libertarian Eddie.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)arely staircase
(12,482 posts)is Putin figuring out a way to hand him over without it looking like he does. "Here is your limo to the ______ embassy Mr. Snowden." mahahaha.
Question is how does the US nab him without looking like we nabbed him and Putin not looking like he let us? Probably something the old KGB hand is mulling over now.
Cha
(297,655 posts)http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/iceland-votes-against-snowden-proposal/story-fn3dxix6-1226675145174