General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAnybody else feel like not celebrating the 4th of July today/tonight?
We often--not every year--go to the fireworks display put on by the Town of Chapel Hill
at Kenan Stadium on the campus of UNC. Tonight we are not going.
Told hubby a couple of hours ago that I'm just not feelin' it this year. I admit to being
seriously disturbed by the actions of the NC Legislature over the last few months. It does
not feel like we are living in a democracy: feels more like tyranny here. The Republican governor
and legislature have made it very clear they could care less about the opposition to the cuts in
education, unemployment benefits, health care, and now abortion rights. Plus they are gearing
up to implement voter id requirements.
We're staying home tonight.
How about you?
peacebird
(14,195 posts)hollysmom
(5,946 posts)lost the beach house, can't take the dog anywhere away from the fireworks, a night in an air conditioned home with windows shut and tv on loud.
mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)We had a dog who HATED fireworks. She's no longer with us. This one doesn't seem to mind them.
hollysmom
(5,946 posts)living in the center of town is convenient for a lot of things, but the 4th with a dog is not good. Ashes will fall on my house tonight, the dog will be using the "basement bathroom" tonight.
mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)they have worked miracles for their dogs.
hollysmom
(5,946 posts)it isjust too close, One night a year, she will survive, at lease she is way better than the border collie, who used to shake. Holly just wants to be close to me and not go outside.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)...but my 23 pound tabby cat is behind the toilet at the first bang.
mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)lunasun
(21,646 posts)thundershirta really work?
MsPithy
(809 posts)I would say the results are mixed. The pops and booms go on for days, here. Because of that, she has heightened nervousness and I think her hearing is incredibly acute, she reacts to things I don't hear. She still pants and drools and tries to hide. If her suffering is relieved a little, hard to tell.
If it is a thunderstorm with one or two booms, she recovers quickly.
A Chihuahua at our dog park used to bark (nervousness) the entire time he was there, with the Thundershirt (which he wears every day, now) no more barking. So, I have definitely seen it work.
The drawback is of course, the expense. If your dog only has problems on the 4th, maybe desensitization is the way to go.
Good luck.
HipChick
(25,485 posts)TxDemChem
(1,918 posts)Until it was time for me to wind down and get ready for bed. I did enjoy a 1959 episode that I'd never seen before.
I have to work tomorrow so I've already got my ear plugs in and have taken my sleeping pills.
With everything happening in Tx, no one in my family feels like celebrating.
quinnox
(20,600 posts)And in light of the recent news, such as the USA embarrassing itself internationally, it doesn't exactly make me feel "extra-patriotic-y" today, that is for sure. Very ironic timing of all this.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)I'm not feeling particularly proud of our country right now either.
quinnox
(20,600 posts)Apparently not.
El Supremo
(20,365 posts)Go move to Vicksburg.
madinmaryland
(64,933 posts)Does that mean we will see another avatar change?
Wonder if my avatar will change when I move??
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
NOT!
El Supremo
(20,365 posts)madinmaryland
(64,933 posts)El Supremo
(20,365 posts)Thought not.
madinmaryland
(64,933 posts)Thought not.
JohnnyBoots
(2,969 posts)The 4th is not about you,but rather all those who have sacrificed and bled to make this great country what it is. Get over yourself...
mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)It is not Memorial Day.
Cry yourself a river.
Sherman A1
(38,958 posts)It's the Nation's Birthday. Nothing directly attached to Veterans of any era.
mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)pasto76
(1,589 posts)what manner of declaration would it have been without an army to back it up? you'd still be flying the union jack and have dentures if it werent for the Continental Army. you know its not always the right that makes me feel like a dope for having spent my adult life in the army. half the time its the left.
sorry you arent "feeling it" btw lady. But this country and its history is a lot bigger than you and this foreseeably short period of right wing lunacy in your state. Staying home and not recognizing it, then posting some glib BS on an internet forum...forgive me if I dont try and spell it out for you. Thank your husband for his service. What I say to people these days - because _I mean everybody_ has a husband, uncle, friend, brother who is a 'vet' (funny how many since less than 1% of the country ever serves, but whatever) is this; what was your problem? You dont get to ride the coat tails of a vet.
MsPithy
(809 posts)you would still be stationed in Vietnam. Have you ever once, thought to thank the millions of protesters who forced congress to stop funding the war and saved, god only knows how many, of your brothers-in-arms, maybe even you.
You're welcome.
dgibby
(9,474 posts)You think your stint in the army gives you the right to go off on someone who's expressing her feelings about the sorry state of affairs we find ourselves in this country this 4th? I think not.
A couple of things you should know:
First, everyone who served was not someone's husband, uncle, friend, or brother. Some of us were someone's mother, sister, aunt, daughter.
Second, the saying in the military goes " I may not agree with your opinion, but I'll fight to the death to defend it", or at least that's what the Navy taught me during the 22 years I served.
Third, and possibly the most important, "Navy Wife: hardest job in the Navy". That goes for the Army, AF, MC, and CG, too. Your comment about "riding the coat tails of a vet" is insulting, and you are bringing shame on the Army by representing them in such an offensive manner. You're not doing yourself any favors, either.
Personally, I'm with the Op on this one. I didn't feel like celebrating, either.
Response to mnhtnbb (Reply #10)
Post removed
Sherman A1
(38,958 posts)that such a comment in unnecessary and frankly rather rude.
The 4th is neither Veteran's Day nor Memorial Day.
mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)taking care of Veterans, on top of serving in the Vietnam War.
He is Major, USAF, Retired.
Sherman A1
(38,958 posts)and offer my thanks to you both. That said, no matter my agreement or disagreement with your feelings on celebrating the 4th, the comments made by the poster were both factually incorrect and as I stated simply rude.
mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)Sherman A1
(38,958 posts)As it should have been.
deutsey
(20,166 posts)mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)That's what I do. Are you one of the love-it-or-leave-it bunch?
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)I haven't celebrated the 4th for many years.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)quinnox
(20,600 posts)the fourth of July means to one on a personal level. You don't get to decide that for others. Maybe you should get over your own self, instead.
Response to JohnnyBoots (Reply #6)
Agschmid This message was self-deleted by its author.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)dgibby
(9,474 posts)You'd starve to death as a historian.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Looking forward to it.
mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)JI7
(89,250 posts)go out anyways. i prefer to just hang out in a small group or alone .
Cleita
(75,480 posts)There is no need to go down there.
MrSlayer
(22,143 posts)I just feel that there is no hope for the country anymore. Both parties are corporately owned creeps that have no intention of ever doing anything good for the People. And is so much more disappointing because "our" side is right there in bed with the worst of the worst.
It's not just the spying, it's the immigration reform designed to undercut Ametican workers, the next free trade agreement that is so horrible it had to be classified, unemployment staying horrible while benefits are being cut, all the ALEC bullshit going on in the states, the destruction of education and so on and so on.
I don't see anything to celebrate. We're lost at sea with no way back. Reaganism has won and we've all lost.
dkf
(37,305 posts)TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)Frankly, I can't wait until it's over with since my dog doesn't like the noises. Actually, neither do I. Sudden loud noises make me jump and go into panic mode at least physically. I have anxiety issues that this shit doesn't help.
mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)right next to my car. The last one made me jump so high I sloshed my iced tea all over the desk. One more of them and I'm calling the cops. Geez, these people make me crazy. How did I get stuck living next door to most asinine and annoying people on earth?
Thanks for your concern!
mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)We've had some real winner neighbors, too. SO annoying. Hang in there.
MerryBlooms
(11,769 posts)H2O Man
(73,543 posts)Go out tonight. If people of conscience stay home, only an unconscious crowd will be there. Carry a sign, or bring some art. Years ago, we used the American flag for symbolic reasons; perhaps today the Constitution should be advertised.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)KoKo
(84,711 posts)These days to carry a sign in protest is not a good thing on a 4th of July Fest. There are touchy people out there who are not understanding in many areas of the USA today.
Not saying that if you are in a more gun controlled area with common thinking folks that one shouldn't carry a protest sign, though. But, many of us don't live in places like that anymore these days. Particularly on a night that brings out those who are super patriotic who would take offense.
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)go walk in our parade with the Anchorage Democrats, mainly because I'm a state district chair and I feel duty-bound to show up for these things. It wasn't too bad, but I didn't stick around for the celebration.
And fireworks here on the 4th are anticlimactic since it's not even dark. Our good fireworks are on New Year's Eve and Fur Rendezvous in February.
marlakay
(11,468 posts)Is in the winter so mid jan after ice festival we have them locally. Love in winter too!
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)out in the Mat-Su Valley north of here. Last year our assembly passed an ordinance allowing them in the city limits, but it didn't go over so well with a lot of people, so now we're back to just the official ones (not that it stops anyone from setting them off in the neighborhoods, despite the threat of a $300 fine). But, yeah, winter fireworks are far superior and much less dangerous as far as fires and so on.
mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)100% out of my comfort zone, but I do what I can.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)but I have kids and bag of fireworks, so I'll be celebrating tonight for them. If my typing sucks more than usual tomorrow, it probably means I blew off a finger.
mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)One of my nephews came damn close to blowing off a finger one year.
Be careful! Have fun.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)and hopefully all ten digits will still present when we're done.
marlakay
(11,468 posts)We were going to next town over to see fireworks on river but wouldn't be home till after midnight and husband found out he has to go to work early.
mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Our fireworks are launched from a barge on Big Bear Lake and my back deck has an unobstructed view from about 300 yards away. Gonna be an awesome show! The ribeyes are marinating, the shrimp are skewered, the beer's chillin' and company has arrived!
I can't fucking wait.
Oh, in answer to your last question.... We're celebrating the fact that 56 men put their lives on the line by signing a document that effectively changed the ENTIRE WORLD, KNOWING they might be chased to the ends of the earth by The King. One was only 26, one was 70, and two were future Presidents. That's fucking awesome and worth noting, if not celebrating if you ask me.
mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)and ended up paying for it.
Richard Stockton. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stockton_%28Continental_Congressman%29
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)because they can go up to the roof of their building and see all the fireworks for miles!
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Independence Day is one of my favorite times of the year.
I Hope you feel better soon...
mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)of many State houses (including NC) have been removed from
places of power and influence.
Divernan
(15,480 posts)Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.
Sleep safe and sound tonight, Edward Snowden. You're a patriot in the tradition of the Founding Fathers.
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)family sitting next to Steny Hoyer in the third row. They look like they are having a blast. There really is no better place to be on the fourth of July in the DC,MD and VA areas.
mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)femmocrat
(28,394 posts)Jackie Evancho is so grown up now!
femmocrat
(28,394 posts)Neil Diamond! I love him.
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)Oh I love the John Phillip Sousa music.
Ilsa
(61,695 posts)they are having a great time!
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)with them because they invited them I thought I saw them but now I'm not sure because the camera moved around so fast. We had rain all day and night. So we didn't get to have fire works where we live in our little rural town in Tn. I'm getting sick of the rain. Did you have them in your area?
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)I am an Aspie and crowds and noise are not my thing
Just had along vacation with the family so everybody is just chilling at home
Worst part of it is all my dumbass neighbors who suddenly think they are pyrotechnic geniuses - God I hate those noises - totally unsettles me
However I am fairly patriotic and still appreciate the idea of the United States - even if it has taken a very weird fork in the road which makes me feels sad
RebelOne
(30,947 posts)all fireworks displays have been cancelled to late dates in August or Labor Day.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)As far as I know, no fireworks have been postponed, but several outdoor concerts have been cancelled or moved.
mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)dkf
(37,305 posts)mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)dkf
(37,305 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)deutsey
(20,166 posts)I personally believe our liberties are under siege and have been for at least a decade.
Sherman A1
(38,958 posts)I am not real happy with the state of things as you so eloquently placed in your post. On top of that Holidays (all of them) are simply more work for me and fireworks come too late in the evening for my work schedule. It's a very early shift in the AM and that simply doesn't work with watching fireworks.
mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Sorry you feel the way you do but all is not lost and remember every few years we get to overthrow our government.
Let's work to make it count next time!
mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)No Vested Interest
(5,166 posts)I had bought some red-white-blue pinwheels and was planning to go across town to the cemetery where my forebears and my spouse are buried and to decorate the graves with the pretty little pinwheels. Grass too wet - it's a hilly cemetery.
Thinking I'll still go- Sat. or Sunday- and decorate. The deceased won't mind it being a little late, and it'll please me to see them blowing or just sitting there looking pretty.
mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)I used to find it soothing to visit our daughter in the cemetery. Hope your visit
will do the same for you.
No Vested Interest
(5,166 posts)I don't mind too much - rain is really a blessing, though I prefer it it in the overnight period - better sleeping and not interfering with other plans. It's hilly here where I live, though the low areas can get flooded. Landslides due to excess rain is common, though.
I've been to the Durham/Chapel Hill area many time in the last 17 yrs. Attended a Duke-affiliated program many times. It's a lovely area, and I can understand why many choose to retire there, with the academic and health facilities of both Duke and UNC available.
I do hope North Carolinians swerve back to the Dem side of the aisle sooner rather than later. We've been overtaken by Republicans here in Ohio, and it's not pretty.
dgibby
(9,474 posts)A friend of my niece's drowned while trying to unclog a culvert because flood waters were overwashing his driveway and heading to his house. His shovel broke and he fell in, got sucked into the culvert. She jumped in to try to save him, but couldn't, and almost got sucked in, too. He left a wife and 2 sons.
Nice people,too. In addition to both of them working, they ran a cat sanctuary.
Needless to say, not much celebrating here.
No Vested Interest
(5,166 posts)How tragedy can strike and change a family's life in an instance!
.
femmocrat
(28,394 posts)Our yahoo redneck a-hole neighbors will put on a big fireworks display like they do every year.
Yes, they are illegal here. And yes I have a dog who is terrified.
mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)femmocrat
(28,394 posts)Hiding waaaaay in the back, beside the dryer. We can't let her our because she gets panicky and will crawl into some tiny space and then we have to dis-lodge her.
Thanks!
mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)mike dub
(541 posts)I've had alot of time-off recently (weddings, etc), so I actually Worked today, and I'm taking tomorrow off as "the 4th".
Coworkers took today off, and are headed back to work tomorrow. Me, I prefer contiguous Friday-Sat/Sun off, so I worked the 4th because I couldn't afford the 4 day weekend.
And we're sitting on the sofa right now with the hounddogs, watching A Capitol 4th. Very lowkey.
mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)mike dub
(541 posts)mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)Response to mnhtnbb (Original post)
davidn3600 This message was self-deleted by its author.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)otohara
(24,135 posts)Fucking split one of our smaller towns in two over the parade, it got canceled, then rescheduled with guns/ no ammo. CBS Network news last night showed this company that makes magazine clips and is supposedly leaving the state give out clips and sell them at a discount. The whole site made me sick - men grabbing clips as if they buy them in any state around CO.
But now I'm watching Fun. play at The White House BBQ for the troops.... I love Fun.
madrchsod
(58,162 posts)this year the city`s festival firework falls on sunday. i won`t be going
mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)night thus not much in a celebratory mood even without the feeling of having my hopes dashed in general re the trajectory of the country.
How's that for a run on sentence! It has been over forty years since my tonsils acted up. I feel like a youngster again except even more impatient. LOL
mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)kimbutgar
(21,153 posts)Plus I am upset that the republicans are doing a coup by taking over state legislatures and taking away people's right. The republicans are an organized crime family who are destroying our country and too many brainwashed stupid people are letting them get away with it. It's a sad state of affairs in this country today. We here at DU are the real American patriots not the fox followers who are the real idiots.
mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)We don't have the right of recall, either. NC is 1 of 12 states without a recall process.
We're stuck with this legislature until 2014--and due to the gerrymandering it's gonna' be
really tough to throw out a lot of the Repubs even then. And then we have the Repub governor
until 2016.
Sanity Claws
(21,849 posts)The day felt very different to me.
Around here, a lot of stores remained open. I remember when all stores closed for the 4th. Things felt very different today from usual Independence Days.
tblue
(16,350 posts)to be -- about freedom and liberty. It's just a day for fireworks and relaxing.
AsahinaKimi
(20,776 posts)I had a little BBQ chicken, that really didn't come off a grill. I went outside for a bit, but having recently come home from the hospital, I wasn't really up for a crazy July 4th. I watched the movie: DUNE. Not the old one but the newer version. Its was okay, but not as good at the original one. I am with a friend on line, listening to some soft jazz.. and trying to stay relaxed.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)RILib
(862 posts)I respect the Founding Fathers and Mothers and their principles. The country no longer resembles that in the slightest.
UTUSN
(70,695 posts)Last edited Sun Jul 7, 2013, 09:55 AM - Edit history (2)
*********QUOTE********
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/07/04/35-founding-father-quotes-conservative-christians-will-hate/#ixzz2Y7qPxGgM
[font size=5]35 Founding Father Quotes Conservative Christians Will Hate[/font]
Author: Stephen D. Foster Jr.
The separation of church and state is one of the cornerstones of Americas foundation. Conservative Christian fundamentalists have sought to crush this cornerstone in the hopes of establishing Christianity as the state religion, an action that would threaten the rest of the foundation that makes up the Constitution. These conservatives contend that the Founding Fathers dreamed of making America a Christian state at the expense of those who practice other religions or none at all.
So on this occasion of our nations founding, here are 35 quotes from the Founding Fathers. Perhaps your first thoughts are the first four Presidents and maybe Benjamin Franklin, but there were many other Founding Fathers. Many were signers of the Constitution and The Declaration of Independence. They were lawyers, judges, soldiers, merchants, farmers, and some were even clergy. And the great majority of them signed the Constitution knowing that matters of government and matters of religion would be separate.
These are hardly the words of men who allegedly believed that America should be a Christian nation governed by the Bible as conservatives constantly claim. On the contrary, the great majority of the Founders believed strongly in separation of church and state. So on Independence Day, keep in mind that this country has survived for over two centuries under the principle of separation and it is only now when conservatives are attempting to destroy that very cornerstone that we find America becoming ever more divided and more politically charged than ever before. If this right-wing faction has their way, America as we know it will cease to exist and the freedoms we have enjoyed because of the Constitution will erode. The Founding Fathers had a vision of this nation and trusted that the people would protect that vision and improve upon it. Now is not the time to fail them. Because the day the people fail, so does America.
1. If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]liberty of conscience[/FONT] insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny[/FONT], and every species of religious persecution.
~George Washington, letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia, May 1789
2. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by a [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought to be deprecated[/FONT]. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.
~George Washington, letter to Edward Newenham, October 20, 1792
3. We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this Land the light of truth and [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition[/FONT]
In this enlightened Age and in this Land of equal liberty it is our boast, that a mans religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest Offices that are known in the United States.
~George Washington, letter to the members of the New Church in Baltimore, January 27, 1793
4. The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses[/FONT].
~John Adams, A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America 1787-1788
5. [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]The Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion[/FONT].
~1797 Treaty of Tripoli signed by John Adams
6. Thirteen governments (of the original states) thus founded on the [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery[/FONT], and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.
~John Adams, A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America (1787-88)
7. We should begin by [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]setting conscience free[/FONT]. When all men of all religions shall enjoy equal liberty, property, and an equal chance for honors and power we may expect that improvements will be made in the human character and the state of society.
~John Adams, letter to Dr. Price, April 8, 1785
8. I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof, thus building [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]a wall of separation between church and state[/FONT].
~Thomas Jefferson, letter to the Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut, 1802
9. In every country and [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty[/FONT]. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is error alone that needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.
~Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to Horatio Spofford, 1814
10. Question with boldness even the existence of a [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]God[/FONT]; because, [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason[/FONT], then that of blindfolded fear.
~Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787
11. I am for freedom of religion and [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another[/FONT].
~Thomas Jefferson, letter to Elbridge Gerry, January 26, 1799
12. History, I believe, furnishes [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government[/FONT]. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson: in letter to Alexander von Humboldt, December 6, 1813
13. Because religious [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]belief, or non-belief[/FONT], is such an important part of every persons life, freedom of religion [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]affects every individual[/FONT]. State [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights[/FONT]. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]Erecting the wall of separation between church and state, therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society[/FONT]. We have solved
the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries.
~Thomas Jefferson: in a speech to the Virginia Baptists, 1808
14. [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law[/FONT].
~Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814,
15. [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]The civil government functions with complete success by the total separation of the Church from the State[/FONT].
~James Madison, 1819, Writings, 8:432, quoted from Gene Garman, Essays In Addition to Americas Real Religion
16. And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together[/FONT].
~James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822
17. Every new and successful example of a [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters[/FONT] is of importance.
~James Madison, letter, 1822
18. [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion and Government in the Constitution[/FONT] of the United States, [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies[/FONT], may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history.
~James Madison; Monopolies, Perpetuities, Corporations, Ecclesiastical
Endowments
19. It is only when the people become ignorant and corrupt, when they degenerate into a populace, that they are incapable of exercising the sovereignty. Usurpation is then an easy attainment, and an usurper soon found. The people themselves become the willing instruments of their own debasement and ruin. Let us, then, look to the great cause, and endeavor to preserve it in full force. Let us by all wise and constitutional measures promote intelligence among the people as the best means of preserving our liberties.
~James Monroe, First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1817
20. When [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]a religion[/FONT] is good, I conceive it [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]will support itself; and when it[/FONT] does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obligated to [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]call for help of the civil power, its a sign[/FONT], I apprehend, [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]of its being a bad one[/FONT].
~Benjamin Franklin, letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780
21. Manufacturers, who listening to the powerful invitations of a better price for their fabrics, or their labor, of greater cheapness of provisions and raw materials, of an exemption from the chief part of the taxes burdens and restraints, which they endure in the old world, of greater personal independence and consequence, under the operation of a more equal government, and of what is far more precious than mere religious tolerationa [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]perfect equality of religious privileges[/FONT]; would probably flock from Europe to the United States to pursue their own trades or professions, if they were once made sensible of the advantages they would enjoy, and were inspired with an assurance of encouragement and employment, will, with difficulty, be induced to transplant themselves, with a view to becoming cultivators of the land.
~Alexander Hamilton: Report on the Subject of Manufacturers December 5, 1791
22. In regard to religion, [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]mutual toleration in the different professions[/FONT] thereof is what all good and candid minds in all ages have ever practiced, and both by precept and example inculcated on mankind.
~Samuel Adams, The Rights of the Colonists (1771)
23. That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]directed only by reason and conviction[/FONT], not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forebearance, love, and charity towards each other.
~George Mason, Virginia Bill of Rights, 1776
24. It is [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]contrary to the principles of reason and justice that any should be compelled to contribute to the maintenance of a church[/FONT] with which their consciences will not permit them to join, and from which they can derive no benefit; for remedy whereof, and that equal liberty as well religious as civil, may be universally extended to all the good people of this commonwealth.
~George Mason, Virginia Declaration of Rights, 1776
25. A man of abilities and character, of any sect whatever, may be admitted to any office or public trust under the United States. I am a friend to a variety of sects, because they keep one another in order. How many different sects are we composed of throughout the United States? How many different sects will be in congress? We cannot enumerate the sects that may be in congress. And there are so many now in the United States that they will [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]prevent the establishment of any one sect in prejudice to the rest[/FONT], and will forever oppose all attempts to infringe religious liberty. If such an attempt be made, will not the alarm be sounded throughout America? If congress be as wicked as we are foretold they will, they would not run the risk of exciting the resentment of all, or most of the religious sects in America.
~Edmund Randolph, address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 10, 1788
26. I never liked the Hierarchy of the Church [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]an equality in the teacher of Religion, and a dependence on the people, are republican sentiments[/FONT] but if the Clergy combine, they will have their influence on Government
~Rufus King, Rufus King: American Federalist, pp. 56-57
27. A general toleration of Religion appears to me the best means of peopling our country
The free exercise of religion hath stocked the Northern part of the continent with inhabitants; and altho Europe hath in great measure adopted a more moderate policy, yet the profession of Protestantism is extremely inconvenient in many places there. A Calvinist, a Lutheran, or Quaker, who hath felt these inconveniences in Europe, sails not to Virginia, where they are felt perhaps in a (greater degree).
~Patrick Henry, observing that immigrants flock to places where there is no established religion, Religious Tolerance, 1766
28. [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]No religious doctrine shall be established by law[/FONT].
~Elbridge Gerry, Annals of Congress 1 : 729-731
29. Knowledge and liberty are so prevalent in this country, that [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]I do not believe that the United States would ever be disposed to establish one religious sect, and lay all others under legal disabilities[/FONT]. But as we know not what may take place hereafter, and any such test would be exceedingly injurious to the rights of free citizens, I cannot think it altogether superfluous to have added a clause, which secures us from the possibility of such oppression.
~Oliver Wolcott, Connecticut Ratifying Convention, 9 January 1788
30. Some very worthy persons, who have not had great advantages for information, have objected against that clause in the constitution which provides, that [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust[/FONT] under the United States. They have been afraid that this clause is unfavorable to religion. But my countrymen, the sole purpose and effect of it is to exclude persecution, and to secure to you the important right of religious liberty. We are almost the only people in the world, who have a full enjoyment of this important right of human nature. In our country every man has a right to worship God in that way which is most agreeable to his conscience. If he be a good and peaceable person he is liable to no penalties or incapacities on account of his religious sentiments; or in other words, he is not subject to persecution. But in other parts of the world, it has been, and still is, far different. Systems of religious error have been adopted, in times of ignorance. It has been the interest of tyrannical kings, popes, and prelates, to maintain these errors. When the clouds of ignorance began to vanish, and the people grew more enlightened, there was no other way to keep them in error, but to prohibit their altering their religious opinions by severe persecuting laws. In this way persecution became general throughout Europe.
~Oliver Ellsworth, Philip B Kurland and Ralph Lerner (eds.), The Founders Constitution, University of Chicago Press, 1987, Vol. 4, p. 638
31. [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]Persecution[/FONT] is not an original feature in any religion; but it [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]is always the strongly marked feature of all religions established by law[/FONT]. Take away the law-establishment, and every religion re-assumes its original benignity.
~Thomas Paine, The Rights of Man, 1791
32. God has appointed [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]two kinds of government[/FONT] in the world, which are distinct in their nature, and [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]ought never to be confounded together; one of which is called civil, the other ecclesiastical government[/FONT].
~Isaac Backus, An Appeal to the Public for Religious Liberty, 1773
33. [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]Congress has no power to make any religious establishments[/FONT].
~Roger Sherman, Congress, August 19, 1789
34. The American states have gone far in assisting the progress of truth; but they have stopped short of perfection. They ought to have given every honest citizen an equal right to enjoy his religion and an equal title to all civil emoluments, [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]without obliging him to tell his religion[/FONT]. Every interference of the civil power in regulating opinion, is an impious attempt to take the business of the Deity out of his own hands; and every preference given to any religious denomination, is so far slavery and bigotry.
~Noah Webster, calling for no religious tests to serve in public office, Sketches of American Policy, 1785
35. The legislature of [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]the United States shall pass no law on the subject of religion[/FONT].
~Charles Pinckney, Constitutional Convention, 1787
**********UNQUOTE**********
love_katz
(2,579 posts)+ a Gazillion!
This post needs a thread all of its own.
I think the entire 29th point needs to be highlighted.
Thank your so very much for all the work you put into this post.
ReRe
(10,597 posts)It is raining and the fireworks are going off, simultaneously, as I speak. Celebrating at home.
mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)Not at our house--but in town.
Chaco Dundee
(334 posts)How can anybody mistake the last 13 years as a democracy.the only thing we have not done in a while is burning witches.but we are getting there.probably sooner than later.
mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)Welcome to DU!
Warpy
(111,264 posts)The war on labor started in earnest in the 70s. That is when I could feel it all start to slip away.
Now so much is gone that only another revolution will save us. Let's just hope the plutocrats realize how uncomfortable for them a violent revolution would be and that they very sensibly allow us a nonviolent one.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)I couldn't do it. I kept thinking of the Booms as our Drones reigning bombs down on people...and I had pictures of those little kids killed...and there were kids in neighborhood shooting off fireworks...and I felt like it was gunfire.
It creeped me out...and we couldn't do it. It's a tradition...but, just don't have the stomach for it this year. Felt that way last New Year's Eve...but this is worse.
Don't mean to be a downer for those who love it all... I just am not up to it this year, either.
Coyotl
(15,262 posts)But I'm home too, staying away from all the noise and sitting a dog too.
I'm optimistic about the future because every Presidential election about 8% of the old voters from the previous one are no longer voting.
People don't change, but the old ones die!
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)With the restore the fourth folks and a radio synch, quiet night at home.
As combat vets we hate fire works anyway.
dflprincess
(28,078 posts)and then I realized that I can't remember my dad ever going to fireworks with us.
I hope you have a peaceful evening.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)last year at the Ranchita fire they were using flare guns to get the back fire going.
First boom, (it sounds like a gun shot) I started to drop... one fire fighter chuckled, I just looked him in the eye and said, Combat vet.
Ah. He apologized.
He thought it was funny. He said that perhaps they should warn us since even FF who are vets have that rection the first time.
2naSalit
(86,631 posts)I live in the mountains now but the sound of he fireworks from town echo up the slope with an eerie report. I can't help thinking about how it traumatizes the wildlife and all the pets around the valley too.
What I don't get is why anyone would find it appropriate to celebrate freedom with the sounds and sights reminiscent of war...
The town down the slope looks like it might have been ravaged by a bombing raid with all the smoke and all the traffic leaving resembling a mass exodus. I have to pause and shake my head at how our culture celebrates a holiday that should be solemn with pseudo violence.
I haven't enjoyed the 4th in ages. Won't be sleeping tonight, tomorrow after work I'll be going up above timberline to get some peace, I hope. It will probably take all weekend to get that accomplished though.
blueamy66
(6,795 posts)I'm in CA and my boyfriend is in Chicago. My family is in AZ.
I am alone in a huge house.
Sucks.
MrsBrady
(4,187 posts)EVERYbody else is out.
I prefer to go out when it's not a holiday.
indepat
(20,899 posts)right-wing/ALEC vengeance.
love_katz
(2,579 posts)Glad to do it, as I am not into all the (faux) patriotic bloviating.
And, with all of the assaults on women's rights, I am not feeling at all into celebrating the 4th this year.
I need to find my CD with the Native American flute music and nature sounds. I will play that later, to damp out the booms and bangs, and try to keep my cat from freaking out. I also put some Rescue Remedy in her food...hopefully, that will help.
Until more of our people stand up against the attempts at tyranny, especially that being foisted on us by the American Talibornagains, I really don't feel all that much like celebrating. The ERA has never been ratified, so I don't feel like my liberty, or the liberty of any woman is really all that secure.
Cheers to you, mnhtnbb, I am right there with you.
mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)Cheers to you right back!
dflprincess
(28,078 posts)and I'll bet none of the ones shooting off the fireworks could recite the first line of the Declaration of Independence. (I know these people one of them, several years ago, was upset because due to a business trip she would be in Philadelphia on the Fourth. I told her I thought that would be kind of neat to be there and she asked me why.)
I did go to a parade today with my niece and her family and was put off by the amount of military in it -- especially when you consider that the Founders did not want a standing army. Except for the honor guard at the front of the parade who were dressed in colonial costumes there was really nothing to note what the day is about.
mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)The ones who run around blathering about this country being founded as a
"Christian" nation really send me up a wall.
There was an interesting full page ad in the NY Times today.
See here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3167400
RBInMaine
(13,570 posts)MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)Have never gotten excited about the 4th of July.
kiva
(4,373 posts)don't set my trees on fire - major drought, hey! let's shoot off flying fire works!!!
Boomerproud
(7,952 posts)Some things are going to have to get better quick before I feel engaged in this country again and I'm not holding my breath for that to happen.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)After Bush stole the second election in 2004, we decided we needed to be able
to get out of the country. Long story--but we chose Panama--started
building a place--applied and got our permanent resident visas there--and then
the building came to a screeching halt. Another long story. Then our house
here burned down. More long story. By then it was 2008 and Obama was elected
and hubby said 'I don't feel the need for Panama any more'. We decided to use
the money to rebuild a house here and gave up on Panama.
Recently, I have been wishing we hadn't let Panama go. Not sure I'd return there--
but I did ask hubby this a.m. what he thought of the idea of moving to Kauai! I know,
Kauai is not emigrating, but it's so far out in the middle of the ocean I think you could
escape a lot of the turmoil that I fear is coming.
But you know, he's 70 and I'm 62 now. I don't think we're going anywhere.
But our kids? Our youngest (23) is going to Berlin in September for 10 months on
a Fulbright. We will certainly be encouraging him to think seriously about the
idea of making a permanent move to Germany.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)Besides finding a country that will let you enter, it's not always easy to support yourselves. Then, if you have family commitments back in the States (such as elderly relatives, etc.) that is really hard to walk away from. My husband and I are sort of encouraging our kids to think about their future in another country, even though I would selfishly like it if they lived next door to us for the rest of our lives.
edited to say: I loooove Kauai. It is so beautiful and peaceful. The cost of living is very high, however (e.g., non-organic milk is about $6 bucks a gallon). On the other hand, you don't need much if you live there, and possibly you could grow a lot of your own food with the year-round growing season.
mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)along with a program of significant discounts on everything from groceries to health care for seniors.
Brigid
(17,621 posts)Any kind of celebration like this just smacks of jingoism these days. Maybe someday when we can actually repair our infrastructure, educate our kids, and get decent jobs.
ChiciB1
(15,435 posts)Was it important? Gee, must have missed it! Too busy trying to hang upside down to see if things looked any better that way! It didn't.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)Quiet day. We did have a dinner with friends.
I've got work I should be doing, too.
ChazII
(6,205 posts)with family and friends. After the loss of the 19 firefighters, we need this bit of normal and let the healing begin.
Corruption Inc
(1,568 posts)For instance, Neil Diamond sang a song about freedom and most of those freedoms don't even exist anymore. Neil Diamond also sang his song "America" in front of a bunch of conservatives who don't want anybody "coming to America" as the words to the song so proudly state. Saw a few crippled soldiers who were praised by some TV star for "sacrificing for our freedoms" and that wasn't what they were crippled for at all. Also saw a few record company acts I've never heard of, obviously put up there by some promoters who could care less about any meaning of July 4th.
B Calm
(28,762 posts)off all the lights, tuned my 50" LG LCD TV and watched the fireworks in New York city.
Cha
(297,244 posts)Here's to much better years for your state. So beautiful.. I'm hoping this republicon overkill be come back to bite them in their collective fascist ass, big time.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)The principles of the founders have been trashed. Democracy in America is in serious jeopardy. The only people really celebrating --really feeling it--are the delusional and the uninformed. Scary how many of those there are.
I don't know how anyone can feel good about what this country has become, never mind how many hotdogs they eat or fireworks they set off. It's a hollow holiday now. Just an uncomfortable nostalgia. But I hope that in that discomfort and dismay we find the courage and determination to bring about some big changes.
mnhtnbb
(31,389 posts)WatermelonRat
(340 posts)Why can't we go back to the days where women and negros knew their place, you never had to see gays outside of mental institutions, and nobody gave compulsory lobotomies a second thought? If the founding fathers were around today, they'd tell their slaves not to even bother with the fireworks.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)if you really want to know what's going on.