What Kind Of Coward Is Edward Snowden?

[ProSense]

The libertarian kind being pushed via embellishment and hyperbole by Paulites.

What kind of coward would decide, at only 29 years old, to single-handedly expose, and subsequently challenge, the most powerful, sophisticated, technologically-advanced government in the history of the world?

Hyperbolic anti-government screed.

What Kind Of Coward Is Edward Snowden? (Read before judging)
http://www.dailypaul.com/288664/what-kind-of-coward-is-edward-snowden


MLK: Letter from a Birmingham Jail

I hope you are able to see the distinction I am trying to point out. In no sense do I advocate evading or defying the law, as would the rabid segregationist. That would lead to anarchy. One who breaks an unjust law must do so openly, lovingly, and with a willingness to accept the penalty. I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law.

http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html

Fleeing to Hong Kong is not courage.

Why Won’t Anyone Take Edward Snowden?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023162351

[Deep13]

1. The correct answer is, "Who gives a shit?"

It's not about him. It is about the unchecked expansion of the power of the executive to spy on its people.

[Democracyinkind]

2. Here something about dead horses. And beating.

[ProSense]

3. Yeah, my bad for not starting a "thanks for Edward Snowden" thread.

It's not about Snowden!!!

[cali]

11. no. you just a trifle odd for posting over 100 Snowden threads.

has the person you are responding to posted even 1/10th as much as you about Snowden?

[ProSense]

13. Please

"no. you just a trifle odd for posting over 100 Snowden threads.

has the person you are responding to posted even 1/10th as much as you about Snowden?"

...spare me: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=152034&sub=trans

And speaking of "odd," I do believe you're projecting:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023135750#post24

[cali]

16. bwahahaha. that all you got?

I think you don't know what projecting means.

you're our very own version of groundhog day. rinse, lather, repeat.

[ProSense]

17. LOL!

[Bobbie Jo]

102. To quote another poster upthread

Who gives a shit?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

104. You have to keep the two minute hate going against enemies of the state.

If the shower of anti-Snowden threads slows then perhaps people will be able to make up their minds for themselves.

[Bobbie Jo]

107. Of course

How can people possibly make up their own minds if GD isn't loaded with SNOWDEN IS A HERO!!11! threads.

Did you actually type that with a straight face?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

108. When it comes to spying by the state on its citizens, in a Democracy no less, I hope

Snowden has more to release or that there are more Snowdens that release what our country is doing to us.

Calling somebody an enemy or traitor for revealing spying programs on its own citizens is odd since WE wouldn't accept it under Bush II.

[Bobbie Jo]

109. Give the sanctimony a rest

Maybe you're late to the party, but this has been argued to the nth degree. If you're into black and white thinking, then you came to the right place.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

110. It's not sanctimony. Nice try.

A democracy can't survive for long once the state begins to spy on its population in a wholesale fashion.

Perhaps you are alright with that?

[Bobbie Jo]

112. Uhuh

And take your straw man with you.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

114. Good for you. I'm glad you can put that on the table and be comfortable with it.

Be sure to thank your NSA agent on the way out of this thread.

[Bobbie Jo]

115. Yeah, you'll do just fine here.

Have at it.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

116. I'm here all weeks folks.

Be sure to tip your NSA monitor. They work hard to destroy democracy.

[Bobbie Jo]

117. Meh

Your snark needs a little work, though.

But you're on the right track with the bumpersticker theme. They eat that shit up here.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

119. Oh, good for you. A comeback.

Here's another. USA! USA! USA!

[Bobbie Jo]

120. ?

Ok.

Snark usually has a point. Swing and a miss there, partner.

(Hint: I'm not one of those mouth breathing patriots, so this doesn't really work)

Good luck in your future DU endeavors.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

122. Sure thing.

[brush]

126. We haven't been a true democracy for a long . . .

. . . I take that back. We've never been a true democracy, a republic with representation for the landed gentry(white males only at the beginning) maybe, but never a democracy. That's just the propaganda we've all come to accept.

Now Washington is more political theater than a functioning legislative body. It's in stalemate and can't get anything done.

The spying by the NSA has been going on since when, the Patriot Act? The technology genie makes it possible and you can't really put the genie back in the bottle.

New legislation has to be crafted to limit what information can be gathered and stored but, like I said, the genie is out of the bottle and it's not going to stop. Hell, even corporations are storing info on everyone that orders something online. Next time you order something see if ads for similar products don't start popping up on your computer screen.

Congress actually legalized this crap back in the Bush admin so it's up to Congress to try to minimize it. That is if they can actually get something passed through both the House and Senate.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

133. "That's just the propaganda we've all come to accept."

No. That's just the propaganda that they want you to accept.

I don't applaud the defeatist attitude. Why bother even posting this? Why bother posting here if that is how you feel?

[brush]

137. Do you really think that the rich and corporations aren't running things,

Last edited Sat Jul 6, 2013, 11:19 AM - Edit history (1)

Or that we are constantly at war because we're spreading democracy? Wake up. Wars are extremely profitable for the top 1% and they dupe mostly blue collar youth into thinking they are fighting for their country as they ship them off to secure our targeted foreign countries' oil or other natural resources.

You can call it defeatist all you want but it's fact.

Try this on for size, a statement by the jailed Herman Göring after WW!!:

"Göring: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.

Interviewer: There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.

Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."


And here's a url to another post you might wanna read:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3166637

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

139. Hush now. Just sit back and don't worry about it. It's too complicated.

Sure, complain on DU every once in a while. When the USA is exposed and embarrassed for doing things that it should not be doing it is understandable that when the Top Dog has a D after his name that any embarrassment is just not an option.

Whether there is a D or an R after a name is inconsequential.


What is troubling is how easy it appears that some people fold and fall in line.

[brush]

166. I thought you could decern

from my post that many others understand that these things have been going on whether there is a D or an R in the White House, including the laws passed to enable NSA to do what they're doing.

[Arctic Dave]

4. Whaaaaaaaaaa!

Stop it! You're making dear leader look bad.

[ProSense]

6. So sorry,

"Stop it! You're making dear leader look bad."

...didn't mean to interrupt the praise of "dear leader" Snowden.

[CakeGrrl]

72. Uh, that's "Dear Leader"

If you're going to bash fellow posters on DU with asinine references, do it up right.

[ProSense]

99. LOL! n/t

[msongs]

5. what kind of coward blows up wedding parties by drone attack? nt

[ProSense]

7. Tough one:

"what kind of coward blows up wedding parties by drone attack?"

...The one you voted for? Am I right?

[Rex]

8. The kind that sits behind a keyboard in the AC

and has no worries in life?

[treestar]

9. The people who called him another MLK need to be thoroughly ashamed

IMO Eddie has a certain amount of courage bolstered by stupidity. But if he had true courage, he would admit he was wrong and come back here instead of fleeing to places that do just as much spying or worse.

[Rex]

25. People called him MLK?

YIKES! I am glad I missed those OP. Please no links, I believe you. Just...sad...

[ProSense]

47. Yup. n/t

[randome]

10. "I am not here to hide from justice."

An idiotic one.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[ProSense]

100. LOL! n/t

[SomethingFishy]

12. Probably the same kind that sits at home day after day

posting the same anonymous shit over and over again on the internet, using buzz words and small minded, back handed, underlying insults in a sad attempt to denigrate anyone with a differing opinion.


Happy Independence Day.

[ProSense]

15. Yup,

"Probably the same kind that sits at home day after day posting the same anonymous shit over and over again on the internet, using buzz words and small minded, back handed, underlying insults in a sad attempt to denigrate anyone with a differing opinion. "

...that kind of coward: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023102239

You nailed it.

[Zorra]

14. If today was July 4th, 2004, Bush was President, and Snowden had done exactly the same things,

would you still be accusing him of being a coward and a traitor, and accusing us of posting anti-government screed?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

103. ^^^This!^^^

It's all perspective, smoke and mirrors...or smoke being blown up the collective DU backside.


Thanks for being a reasonable voice.

[cali]

18. It's ProSense day! Just like the movie Groundhog day.

New day, same Snowden thing.

100+ threads on her favorite guy!

[ProSense]

19. Stop

"It's ProSense day! Just like the movie Groundhog day."

...the obsession.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=152034&sub=trans

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023135750#post24

[cali]

22. lol. you implying anyone else is obsessed? that's just wonderfully

CogDis.

Hey, stop posting the endless threads about the man you're so.... interested in, and I won't be posting in them.

I'll stop when you do.

Until then, I'll point out how you can't stop posting about him thread after thread after thread after thread.

[ProSense]

23. Actually,

"you implying anyone else is obsessed?"

...it sure seems that way.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023169023#post11
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023169023#post18

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=152034&sub=trans

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023135750#post24

[cali]

24. lol. funnier and funnier. more on more desperation from you.

the obliviousness is fascinating.

[ProSense]

27. What

"lol. funnier and funnier. more on more desperation from you. the obliviousness is fascinating."

...happened: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023135750#post24

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

20. The same kind as Emile Zola and Albert Einstein.

After publishing J'Accuse, Zola fled to England.

Einstein fled to the U.S. to escape persecution as a Jew.

[ProSense]

21. Snowden

"Einstein fled to the U.S. to escape persecution as a Jew."

...broke the law and fled the country like a coward. He was not being persecuted.

You should read the MLK quote on breaking the law.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

29. Was MLK held for trial in a court that disallowed evidence because of "National Security"?

And, he was spied on by the FBI. I have a feeling (sorry, no blue links) he didn't embrace it.

[ProSense]

31. Snowden broke the law and fled the country. He was not being persecuted. n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

33. So, he should come back and face a court that will withhold evidence because of Natiobal Security?

Do you really think the administration or the NSA will allow an open trial, with all the evidence presented by both sides, to be revealed to the public?

[ProSense]

41. Yes, he should face the consequences.

He's going to have to.

[Life Long Dem]

49. Heroes don't hide

[cali]

26. oh, c'mon pro fans. can't you get enough recs to send this off to the greatest?

It's been up for a while and its got 24 responses and only 3 recs. you guys can do it!

[ProSense]

28. Thanks

"oh, c'mon pro fans. can't you get enough recs to send this off to the greatest?

It's been up for a while and its got 24 responses and only 3 recs. you guys can do it!"

...for continuing to prove the point: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023169023#post23

[cali]

30. one that exists only in the *interesting* confines of your mind.

[ProSense]

32. Seriously,

what happened: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023135750#post24

[BumRushDaShow]

34. Why don't you post something ontopic. nt

[Logical]

125. You seldom see many recs for her 200 posts a day. Most dups of her other posts. n-t

[Pholus]

36. Another rerun. nt

[ucrdem]

37. Bwahaha. 279 recs and counting for a Daily Paul special

right here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3153903



Now we know where the funny smell has been coming from.

Thanks for the holiday cheer ProSense! Have a great one!!

[Number23]

66. Oh my God. I was wondering if that's where that came from

Straight from the Paulite's tiny brains and mouths, smack on to DU with 172 recs to boot.

But in all honesty, 172 recs is kind of chump change. You haven't really struck gold until your mispelled, hysterical, anti-Obama spiels hit the 220+ mark.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

94. Uh, "mispelled"?

As the BOGers like to say:

[Number23]

96. I'm sure your post was pithy and clear as a bell in your head

[Bobbie Jo]

105. Not accounting

For troll recs.

Ever checked out the names attached to some of those recs?

"00rj18" isn't exactly a regular.

[Number23]

124. Oh girl, yes! I always check the recs when some of these laughable posts shoot up

to 100 recs within 15 minutes of being posted. And you are absolutely right, in every single case, about 80% of the names on the rec list are "posters" with 100 posts over 5 years or who just signed up three weeks ago. No, nothing suspect about that at all!

[n2doc]

38. Less of a coward than you

What are you risking? The scorn of fellow DU'ers?

[ProSense]

42. If that's

"Less of a coward than you

What are you risking? The scorn of fellow DU'ers?"

...you're idea of cowardice, then it likely also applies to you and Snowden: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023102239

I didn't break the law and flee the country.

[Scurrilous]

59. Nice personal attack.

The jury let it stand 3 - 3. May I have better luck next time.

[n2doc]

63. Just following the example set by the OP

I guess your efforts at restricting free speech on DU have been thwarted, for now. Better luck next time.

[ProSense]

64. Don't blame me for your personal attacks. n/t

[n2doc]

67. No, I would never do that

I am just emulating your examples. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, you know.

[ProSense]

73. No, you're projecting.

Still, it's hilarious how upset people are by this OP.

[Scurrilous]

70. From the "Community Standards' section of 'About DU':

"Members should refrain from posting messages on DU that are disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate."

Your reply was rude.

Also (from 'How You Can Help'):

"Clicking the "Alert abuse" link on disruptive posts.."

Alerting on rude replies like yours falls under helping DU not (the hilarious) restricting free speech.

As Skinner says, you take your chances. You got lucky. Congrats.

[leftstreet]

39. You're so flustered you're forgetting to BOLD your blue links

And stop spreading lies. Snowden hasn't been turned down by countries he hasn't even applied to yet


I'm beginning to think you're actually out of the loop

[ProSense]

43. Hmmm

"You're so flustered you're forgetting to BOLD your blue links"

...I never do, but then again, I never imagined anyone was paying so much attention to the "blue links"

[darkangel218]

56. +1000

[ProSense]

62. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=286706&sub=trans

"+1000"

[darkangel218]

74. Bwahahahaha! thats all you got?! I cant even watch Jurassic Park anymore without lmao

ROFL.!!!!

[ProSense]

75. Yup, and it's hilarious.

[Vinnie From Indy]

40. You don't like Edward Snowden..we get it!

Are these posts supposed to change people's minds or have they become an obsession that you cannot control?

Hell, I bet even Obama would tell you to give it a rest at this point.

Happy Independence Day!

[ProSense]

44. Wow,

"You don't like Edward Snowden..we get it!"

...You're right. When did you finally realize? http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023102239

I bet I can guess who you "don't like": http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023087676

"Are these posts supposed to change people's minds or have they become an obsession that you cannot control? "

Ah, the smell of hypocrisy.

[Vinnie From Indy]

45. I think you have mental issues.

At this point, you are merely a crazy spammer and add nothing to the debates here on DU.

Cheers!

[ProSense]

48. Says the person who

posted this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023087676

[DisgustipatedinCA]

81. I don't really think that observing that the rest of the world is angry with us qualifies as

...a mental issue.

Your spontaneous answers differ in tone and quality from your longer screeds. I wonder about that.

[ProSense]

83. Was that

"I don't really think that observing that the rest of the world is angry with us qualifies as ...a mental issue."

...intended as a response to another comment?

I mean, here is what the comment you responded to:

Says the person who posted this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023087676

"Your spontaneous answers differ in tone and quality from your longer screeds. I wonder about that."

I'm sure you do.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

84. Help! ProSense has fallen, and she can't get up!

No, I intended to respond to you, and I did.

[ProSense]

87. You know

that was lame, right?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

89. It wasn't my best. Looks like you're still on the ground though.

[Poll_Blind]

55. Your Post Was Alerted. Jury voted 3-3 to let it stand. nt

PB

[Ricochet21]

46. Writing these anonymous responses

doesn't take any balls either. Unless you walk in his shoes....

[Cheap_Trick]

50. A better question is "Who's bankrolling Snowden?"

Jetsetting from country to country can't be cheap.

[itsrobert]

51. He's no coward

Just a smart ass punk.

[ProSense]

128. Opinions vary. n/t

[Cha]

52. Snowden's the kind of coward who runs far away from

the United States of America and then rats on his country. Then he further rats to China and Russia. And of fucking course.. he whines and blames Pres Obama for all his problems.

He won't face what he's done like anyone who's practiced civil disobedience(read MLK and Rosa Parks) or any "whistelblower" because he's too chickenshit.

But, no worries.. he's got Glen Greenwald and Julian Assange running the show.



http://theobamadiary.com/2013/07/03/this-and-that-78/

Happy Fourth of July, Pro Sense

[ProSense]

53. Criticizing Snowden

unleashes the fury of the Snowden is hero campaigners.

Yikes.

[liberal_at_heart]

54. enough is enough. You spam the board too much. I'm using my ignore button.

[ProSense]

57. I weep!

[Major Nikon]

58. Snowden didn't take a seat at the lunch counter and wait for the police to arrest him

Not even close.

[99Forever]

60. Another pitiful attempt at character assassination...

... from the same old, same old.

More pathetic and desperate by the minute.

The Emperor has no clothes, no matter how much that destroys your fantasy world.

[ProSense]

61. Remember

"Another pitiful attempt at character assassination..."

...it's not about Snowden!!

Snowden’s asylum request rejected (Norway)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023170165

[disidoro01]

65. Can you

or will you post anything but your Anti-Snowden posts?
We get your position but you've gone from advocating a position to weak-minded trolling.
I think it's shameful that you cheerlead for anything the President does, killing children, invading other countries, bailing out bankers, etc. There are serious issues and you just troll on how a whistleblower should be droned.

[ProSense]

68. Your comment is bizarre, and

with 120 posts you should refrain from calling anyone a "troll."

Snowden is coward.

[disidoro01]

69. Explain

post count will you?
This will be enlightening.

[ProSense]

71. No, you're brilliant and not a "troll."

Figure it out for yourself.

[99Forever]

78. It bugs that one that someone with...

.. only 120 posts has already figured out the fawning worship game it plays. Watch how it posts link after link to itself as a "source."

[ProSense]

79. It "bugs" you that I criticize Snowden.

"Watch how it posts link after link to itself as a 'source.'"

I get a kick how "it" is obsessed with me.

[99Forever]

80. I worry about people who show...

... textbook symptoms of obsession and have real problems seeing reality.

[ProSense]

86. Well,

"I worry about people who show... textbook symptoms of obsession and have real problems seeing reality."

...maybe you should give up Internet pyschoanalysis and the pretense that you know what "reality" is.

Just a suggestion.

[ZombieHorde]

76. By that logic, all soldiers are cowards.

They break the law of the country they invade, and then they don't willingly take the penalty.

Additionally, when people try to hurt them, they do what they can to avoid being hurt, such as taking cover.

Do you think US soldiers are cowards?

[ProSense]

77. Are you saying MLK's logic is flawed, or

are you comparing Snowden to soldiers who "invade" a country?

Or both?

[ZombieHorde]

82. What MLK is saying in that quote is different than how you are using the quote.

MLK is defending his actions and the actions of his allies. You are using the quote to say Snowden is a coward.

I'm saying your logic is inconsistent if you believe soldiers are not cowards and you believe those who break the law without accepting the legal consequences are cowards.

[ProSense]

85. So

"MLK is defending his actions and the actions of his allies. You are using the quote to say Snowden is a coward."

...MLK didn't say this:

I hope you are able to see the distinction I am trying to point out. In no sense do I advocate evading or defying the law, as would the rabid segregationist. That would lead to anarchy. One who breaks an unjust law must do so openly, lovingly, and with a willingness to accept the penalty. I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law.

http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html

"I'm saying your logic is inconsistent if you believe soldiers are not cowards and you believe those who break the law without accepting the legal consequences are cowards. "

In the context of MLK's statement, what does Snowden's law-breaking have to do with soldiers who "invade" a country?

[ZombieHorde]

88. Soldiers who participate in wars are breaking the laws of the country they invade.

Should they not be willing to accept the penalty? Or does the magic label "soldier" exempt people from this rule?

[ProSense]

90. Did Snowden "invade" this country?

Your point makes no sense.

[ZombieHorde]

93. Hmmm...

We are talking about accepting responsibility for breaking laws, so my point is based around that subject.

You claimed that those who break laws and don't accept responsibility are cowards.

Soldiers break the laws of the countries they invade. The invasion is not the important thing here, the law breaking is the important thing. The invasion is the crime committed by soldiers, just like the leaks are the crime committed by Snowden. Both commit crimes. Both dodge responsibility for their crimes.

So, for this behavior, either both are cowards or neither are cowards.

[ProSense]

95. Yes,

"We are talking about accepting responsibility for breaking laws, so my point is based around that subject. "

...breaking laws, not invading countries.

If Snowden is arrested, it will not be as a prisoner of war.

At least soldiers stand and defend themselves. They don't go to war and hide from battle.

I quoted MLK (on breaking the law), not Patton.

[boilerbabe]

91. I can't believe there are people who still take you seriously on this site.

oh wait, yes i can, there is a whole crew. :shudder:


everybody you and your gang doesnt like is in league with Rand Paul. I suppose it could be worse it could be the Bildebergers. If Bush were president you and your minions would be loving this guy.

[ProSense]

92. Well,

"I can't believe there are people who still take you seriously on this site."

...I "can't believe" you think I care what you believe.

Who are you?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

106. We could ask the same of you PS.

And be nonplussed by your lulz.


But let's be frank. Where do you stand on the state, in this instance the NSA, spying on its citizens.

No blue links. Put it on the table: word for word.

[CakeGrrl]

111. Individual data requires a warrant.

Even Greenwald acknowledged that.

If you're implying illegal, warrantless monitoring of data of U.S. citizens complete with identity, that is not happening just because Snowden said it COULD.

Where is the proof that data has been collected on anyone who doesn't meet the criteria for profiling (which has to be a NON-U.S. citizen ABROAD)?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

113. Bless your soul CakeGrrl.

It's good to see that you have complete faith in government to do no wrong.

[ProSense]

118. And I could "ask the same of you"

"But let's be frank. Where do you stand on the state, in this instance the NSA, spying on its citizens.

No blue links. Put it on the table: word for word."



First, it's a bit hilarious to state "let's be frank," and then introduce the "blue links" straw man to bolster your claim of being "frank."

Still, a few things have become clear during this debate:

It's not about Snowden, unless he's being hailed as a hero.

It's not about Greenwald, unless he's a national treasure.

It's not about Obama, unless he's being portrayed as a liar, tyrant, evil or some other kooky characterization.

Snowden isn't a hero. The goal was never a debate about the NSA. Snowden and Greenwald's goal was to embarrass the United States and the President and create an international incident.

The reason Snowden was tripping all over his claims of domestic spying is because it was a distraction, the "bombshell" loaded with inaccuracies to blow up the story. He also seemed preoccupied with the fact that U.S. spying on other countries.

One of the most fascinating aspects in the aftermath of this leak is watching people resort to hyperbolic prose (invoking the Constitution and pretending they're the only defenders of it) while misrepresenting the facts. You (generic) opposed Bush policies? Well, good for you. So did I, and I'm not the one pretending that Bush's policies are the same as Obama's.

Prior to the FISA amendments, Bush was intentionally targeting Americans in collecting metadata without a warrant and bypassing the FISA Court.

That was illegal, but more specific is the fact that Bush was actually eavesdropping on Americans.

The fact that the FISA amendment gave the telecoms retroactive immunity (and I don't think it should have) for their role in the law-breaking activity is being misinterpreted to mean the law made Bush's activities legal.

That's like claiming that someone given immunity for cooperating in a criminal investigation means that the crime being investigated becomes legal.

In a country where surveillance has been part of the fabric of law enforcement and national security, with the acknowledgment that it's a necessity, the debate is about how to do it while protecting Americans, classified information and the Constitution.

This is the reason that while Senators like Udall and Wyden are critical of the program, they're offering a fix. You can bet there will be those who don't think it goes far enough, and others who will dismiss it.

One thing is certain, whether it’s a SCOTUS decision or a Congressional fix, the U.S. surveillance program, the 61-year-old NSA, isn't going anywhere.

I suspect that any fix in operation can earn the label unconstitutional. I suspect that if the Church Committee existed today and proposed the FISA court, it would be challenged as such.

You don't have to love it. You never did. You can push elected officials for accountability, but will you be satisfied?

My beef is there is no need to distort the facts to debate the issue. That is what Snowden's leak did, and I might add, intentionally.

The NSA doesn't need to be sensationalized to spark a debate. The facts of its operation are enough to do just that, as evidenced by the years of challenges mounted by civil liberties organizations.

Hope that helps.

(And it's not like I haven't expressed these sentiments over and over, but I appreciate the gotchas for their strawmen qualities and clear attempts to create the impression that I haven't).

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

121. You seem to be all over yourself here. The question was fairly simple. Fairly simple.

Where do you stand on the state, in this instance the NSA, spying on its citizens?


I appreciate your cut-n-paste, but I expected more meat to your answer.

[ProSense]

123. Somehow

"You seem to be all over yourself here. The question was fairly simple. Fairly simple.

Where do you stand on the state, in this instance the NSA, spying on its citizens?

I appreciate your cut-n-paste, but I expected more meat to your answer."

...I knew you would ignore my detailed opinion and invoke another dismissive term: "cut-n-paste"

"Where do you stand on the state, in this instance the NSA, spying on its citizens?"

See my previous response. If that isn't good enough, then I can't help you.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

131. No. Answer the question. What are you afraid of?

[ProSense]

132. I have no answer that will please you. You got me. Live happy knowing that.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

134. "I have no answer that will please you. You got me."

Actually you do have an answer, but you seeming lack the fortitude to put it on the table.

While you're dusting off the lulz here is my question to you for a third time, and let's see if you have the ability to actually answer it without the smoke and mirrors.




Where do you stand on the state, in this instance the NSA, spying on its citizens?

[ProSense]

135. No

"Actually you do have an answer, but you seeming lack the fortitude to put it on the table. While your dusting off the lulz here is my question to you for a third time, and let's see if you have the ability to actually answer it without the smoke and mirrors. "

...I don't. You're a superior human being and my poor "blue links" and "cut-n-paste" will never suffice.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023169023#post118

"Where do you stand on the state, in this instance the NSA, spying on its citizens? "

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023169023#post118

BTW, I really don't give a shit about your bullshit quest: "let's see if you have the ability to actually answer it without the smoke and mirrors."

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

136. I don't click on vanity links, PS.

It is curious that persons with a 100k post counts would feel threatened by a question from a poster with less than 3k.

Bookmarked.

[ProSense]

138. Of course

"I don't click on vanity links, PS."

...you don't.

"It is curious that persons with a 100k post counts would feel threatened by a question from a poster with less than 3k/"

Why are you having trouble accepting that you're superior? Does the act of constantly ignoring information in order to match wits make you feel even more superior?

You know what I think: I think I'm in your head, and also getting under your skin. Something is bothering you.

You're using this little quest of yours to try to establish a position to justify dismissing my opinions.

You know what works better: ignoring the "blue links" and "cut-n-paste."

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

140. Will this be the fourth time that you sidestep this simple question?

Where do you stand on the state, in this instance the NSA, spying on its citizens?

[ProSense]

141. Yes. n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

142. I'm glad that you could admit the sidestep.

[ProSense]

143. You're just too brilliant. You got me.

Your life must be complete.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

144. "You're just too brilliant. You got me. Your life must be complete."

I don't base my life on such easy work, PS.

[ProSense]

145. Wow,

"I don't base my life on such easy work, PS."

...that's deep. Your intelligence and wisdom become more clear with every post!

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

146. "Your intelligence and wisdom become more clear with every post!"

And you can compress the most words into the smallest idea of any persons I know.

[ProSense]

147. Sigh

"And you can compress the most words into the smallest idea of any persons I know."

...there's that superiority again. Looking forward to more blinding brilliance and wonderful wisdom.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

148. How about this jewel?

Where do you stand on the state, in this instance the NSA, spying on its citizens?

[ProSense]

149. Brilliant!

How about the fifth?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

150. You can take the fifth any time you like, PS.

[ProSense]

152. You outsmarted me again.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

153. 144

[ProSense]

154. 441

?

[Bobbie Jo]

157. .

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[ProSense]

158. .

[woo me with science]

167. ProSense: "Spying on Americans was, is and will still be illegal."

Why so coy? Hypocrisy and bootlicking don't shock anyone at this point.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2461323

ProSense (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-15-06 08:53 AM
Original message
Edited on Wed Feb-15-06 08:53 AM by ProSense

Bush is spying on Americans: opponents and activist groups. The law can't
be changed to make that legal. The Republicans are trying to pull a fast one with this "law change" tactic by framing the illegal spying as warrantless spying on terrorists; therefore, the law is being changed to give Bush the authority to spy on terrorist. Spying on Americans was, is and will still be illegal. Bush committed crimeS by illegal spying on Americans and breaking existing FISA laws.

I'm sure all criminals would love to have a law passed that retroactively absolves them of their crimes.

[ProSense]

168. Can't quit

being disingenuous, huh: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3122617

Do you stand by this post, Prosense?

Bush is spying on Americans: opponents and activist groups. The law can't be changed to make that legal.

ProSense (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-15-06 08:53 AM
Original message
Edited on Wed Feb-15-06 08:53 AM by ProSense

Bush is spying on Americans: opponents and activist groups. The law can't
be changed to make that legal. The Republicans are trying to pull a fast one with this "law change" tactic by framing the illegal spying as warrantless spying on terrorists; therefore, the law is being changed to give Bush the authority to spy on terrorist. Spying on Americans was, is and will still be illegal. Bush committed crimeS by illegal spying on Americans and breaking existing FISA laws.

I'm sure all criminals would love to have a law passed that retroactively absolves them of their crimes.

Yup, stand 100 percent behind it.

Ever heard of the PAA: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023026724

By all means, go on pretending you never received a response.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3122942
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3133739
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3125366
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3122700
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3122561
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3133739
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3133751
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3134370
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023134060#post86

You know I'm going to post this everytime you post your failed gotcha, don't you?

[HardTimes99]

97. The kind of coward you could only hope to be - nt

[ProSense]

98. I don't like being trapped in Russian airports.

I'm just not that stupid.

[madrchsod]

101. or what kind of dumb ass is snowden?

[bushisanidiot]

127. So who is funding his evasion of the U.S. authorities?

Wouldn't his credit card accounts have been shutdown for committing treason?

Someone with a lot of money and something to gain is helping him.

[backscatter712]

129. ***BINGO***

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023154527

[ProSense]

130. Too bad Snowden can't use that to get asylum. n/t

[Th1onein]

155. lol

[bluestate10]

151. Your objective was right. But every time I see Snowden's name in a post of story

with MLK and whistle-blower that stayed, got arrested and fought it out for what was right, I want to puke. Snowden is a coward, plain and simple, a weak, sniveling coward.

[Th1onein]

156. You shouldn't be puking because you think Snowden is a coward.

You should be puking because our fucking country, the United States of America, home of the brave, and land of the free--the country whose soldiers Germans during WWII were told to surrender to because they would be treated humanely--IS TORTURING people now. Who would willingly subject themselves to torture?

Snowden might very well be a coward; I don't know the man. But one thing I think he's not is an idiot.

[ProSense]

159. Do you

"You should be puking because our fucking country, the United States of America, home of the brave, and land of the free--the country whose soldiers Germans during WWII were told to surrender to because they would be treated humanely--IS TORTURING people now. Who would willingly subject themselves to torture? "

...have a link to this outlandish claim?

Maybe you should stop pretending that people were oblivious to the NSA and life in America before Snowden.

"Snowden might very well be a coward; I don't know the man. But one thing I think he's not is an idiot."

Well, fleeing to Hong Kong and then flying to Russia wasn't such a smart move.

[Th1onein]

160. It is an outlandish claim that we are now torturing people? Are you KIDDING me?

Where have you been these past twelve years? Huh?

No, I'm not going to provide you with a link. I've wasted enough time proving shit that's already been proven time and time again. WE. TORTURE. PEOPLE. Deal with it. The time for denying it is long past.

And no one is PRETENDING anything. That old saw that this is old news doesn't float, Prosense. Obama said that he would stop this bullshit before he took office and it has done nothing but expanded under his regime.

Snowden fleeing to Hong Kong and then to Russia might not have been the smartest move in the world, after he spilled the beans, but it was just about his only move.

[ProSense]

161. Link? n/t

[Th1onein]

162. You know, I've read your little treatise on what's going on here. It's sad, Prosense.

I'm not sure what is motivating you, but your explanation of this whole thing doesn't even make sense. It's all a boil of hot denial. Why?

Do you deny that the NSA under Obama is spying on millions of American citizens? You've seen the warrant that Snowden provided. Do you deny that it's asking for ALL of the data that Verizon has on it's business customers, for a three month period? ALL of the date, Prosense, on American's business communications.

We've never before seen a FISA warrant, Prosense. Are you doubting that? Let's say it IS old news. Do you understand that, to us, having never seen such an all encompassing warrant, that maybe it's news to us, and that we are concerned about it?

WHY aren't YOU concerned about it? Explain that to me, instead of inanely asking for links for shit that's been in the news for years.

[ProSense]

163. Well,

"I'm not sure what is motivating you, but your explanation of this whole thing doesn't even make sense. It's all a boil of hot denial. Why?"

...I expect you to say anything, and I don't expect that link.

[Th1onein]

164. You're not in for any surprises then, are you?

I'm not going to waste my time digging up links for shit that's been old news, now, since the Bush years.

Go your way, ProSense. Take my pity with you.

[ProSense]

165. Uh,

You're not in for any surprises then, are you?

I'm not going to waste my time digging up links for shit that's been old news, now, since the Bush years.

Go your way, ProSense. Take my pity with you.

...you "authoritarian"!!!

You said "now," not during the Bush years, and you made the claim in response to a comment about Snowden.

Like I said, don't pretend that people were oblivious to the NSA and life in America before Snowden.

He's a coward and a hack.