Um Evo, does Bolivia spy on its citizens?

[stevenleser]

http://legacy.utsandiego.com/news/world/20080124-1513-bolivia-policespying.html

By Dan Keane
ASSOCIATED PRESS
3:13 p.m. January 24, 2008
LA PAZ, Bolivia – Bolivia's national police commander said Thursday that his own department's intelligence service had spied on politicians and journalists without his knowledge and angrily accused a subordinate of directing the “dirty work.”
The announcement by Gen. Miguel Vasquez was prompted by materials sent anonymously to several Bolivian news media this week, which appeared to document efforts to follow opposition state governors, a television reporter, and two congressmen aligned with President Evo Morales.

.
.
.

Antonio Peredo, a senator from Morales' Movement Toward Socialism party, downplayed the revelations.

“We all know there exists state security system, and that system has to keep up on the movements of political parties, unions,” Peredo said. “Everybody's done it.”
---------------------------------------------------------

[Comrade Grumpy]

1. Typical. Divert attention by trying to smear the victim.

The Bolivian government, like all governments, deserves scrutiny. But I believe this is just a lame-ass attempt to smear Morales in some deluded effort to minimize what happened on his way back from Moscow.

It's pitiful and pathetic. And low.

And misguided. You're trying to accuse Morales of hypocrisy, I suppose, but what's at issue is not whether Bolivia does intelligence gathering but the propriety of treating a sovereign head of state like a criminal suspect.

You ought to stay out of the muck. You have plenty of peers who are quite willing to go there; no need to dirty yourself any further. Leave it to them.

[stevenleser]

2. LOL! At this point, Bolivia's admitted domestic spying is worse than ours.

They spied on rival candidates and parties! And their answer specifically related to the spying on rival candidates and parties is:

"It's no big deal, everybody does it"

So, how is that a distraction if at this point, Morales is claiming he is superior to us morally?

[MNBrewer]

9. Well, at least we're better than Bolivia

*sigh*

[cali]

10. are you a Bolivian citizen? Something you want to tell us?

I'm concerned about NSA mass surveillance because I live in the U.S. duh.

And could you please link to Morales' quote where he claims he's superior to us morally?

I know he's claimed that the U.S. doesn't have the moral authority to lecture others, but that's hardly the same thing.

[Pholus]

56. At least you are thoughtful enough to attach the word "admitted" to that. nt

[Rex]

28. It is a pretty good distraction and the timing is all pro.

Steve is all pro.

[East Coast Pirate]

74. Now we know why he's comfortable cashing that News Corp check.

Hey, since we're in the muck...

[cali]

3. what does this have to do with.... anything?

did he say that they didn't? how is this related to the issues around his plane?

what, in short, is the point that you are presumably trying to make?

[Cooley Hurd]

57. Hear that cali? Crickets!

Crickets from the OP!

[cali]

59. I'm shocked, Cooley. Utterly shocked.

[Enrique]

4. does this mean the pivot is underway?

from denying the plane was grounded, to Evo deserved it?

[byeya]

34. for the corrupt, the pivot is underway. we'll see what comes from the S.A. meeting for

the real news that will have an impact one way or another.

[Cali_Democrat]

5. How dare you

reveal facts about the Bolivian government and their espionage operations.

[cali]

6. fine, reveal them. I'm not a Bolivian citizen so it doesn't effect me

really, why should anyone care?

[treestar]

30. Then why care about Evo's plane stopping in Austria?

I ask this generally as I don't know whether you're on that subject or not.

It's been such an outrage on DU generally today that Evo's private jet had to land in Austria because supposedly the US ordered the French, etc. not to let him stop in their countries. Due to a fear of Snowden being on board.

[cali]

36. Because it potentially violates national sovereignty

I would be exceedingly displeased if this happened to Air Force One.

[stevenleser]

7. LOL, I know right? And all of the usual suspects who criticized Obama are showing up and...

are they unhappy with Morales or his party? No. They are unhappy with... me!!

[Comrade Grumpy]

11. Keep on wankin'. I'm sure you and your amen chorus amuse yourselves.

[stevenleser]

15. You are so funny!!!! This is great stuff! Talk about cult of the personality and anti-cult of the

personality!

[cali]

18. oh dear. you really don't realize how you're coming off. yikes.

I almost feel sorry for you.

[stevenleser]

20. Funny, I was just going to say the same to you!

[cali]

22. no you weren't, but if it makes you feel better.

you couldn't possibly look more desperate.

[Progressive dog]

65. Amen

One of the amen chorus just checking in.

[cali]

13. no, of course I'm not unhappy with him. I don't care one way or another

I'm not a Bolivian citizen.

you really do post nonsense.

[treestar]

23. Amen!

[freshwest]

67. I like you, steven. You give me a lot to think about.

[rhett o rick]

78. And it's time for Guess The Point.

Help me out here.

1. Any government that dares to challenge the American Empire, deserves at least to go under the bus.

2. What good is it to have an authoritarian state if some no-account foreign leader wont knuckle under.

3. Morales better remember what we did to Hussein.

4. (anyone else want to guess the point of the OP?)

[Cleita]

8. Other countries don't have the same Constitution we do.

We have an amendment against our country spying on it's citizens and our government is in violation of it. That's the difference. I don't know if Bolivia or Venezuela have that written into their Constitutions. It might be perfectly legal for them.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. OK. I promise not to vote for Evo when he runs for president here.

Or, any other candidate who thinks it's a good idea for the NSA to spy on American citizens without probable cause approved by a secret court holding secret proceedings.

[cali]

14. the ususal suspects don't realize how ridiculous they appear.

[Rex]

21. I am beginning to see why the OP gets on Foxnews a lot.

He tends to behave just like them imo.

[HiPointDem]

26. +1.

[cali]

27. ding, ding, ding. and the couple of times I've seen him, he was incredibly weak.

limp as overcooked spaghetti.

[Scootaloo]

76. You noticed that too?

Here, I was wondering if I was the only one.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

33. But, they are pretty good acrobats as they twist themselves into pretzels trying to appear Liberals

while supporting NSA spying.

[kentuck]

16. Oh no!

Not them...

[stevenleser]

19. I know, domestic spying isn't a big deal, amirite? Oh wait!

[cali]

31. are you a citizen of Bolivia? Do you understand why for U.S. citizens

domestic spying here is a much bigger deal than domestic spying in another country?

Btw, it's lame that you can't answer a single question that's asked of you.

[dkf]

17. Thanks for pointing out it's the powerful vs the powerless

All over the world this is what people who feel they can do as they please are getting away with.

All leaders have become corrupted and now they have the tools to do so much.

This is not the world I want to live in. It needs to be changed.

[HiPointDem]

24. and the relationship between this claim & western governments holding heads of state hostage

is -- what, exactly?

i'd guess we all know that all governments spy on their own citizens. and i'd guess we all know that 'everyone does it' is not a defense to a criminal act.

[galileoreloaded]

25. the Bolivians can't even land their plane for avgas, dude.

what are they gonna do, shove a RadioShack tape recorder in a dufflebag under my bed?

that's sooooo not the poin, and a 10th grade logical fallacy.

and you are on TV? holy smokes.

[Rex]

29. He is on Foxnews...makes ya think don't it?

nt.

[stevenleser]

40. LOL, I'm also on RT and have been on MSNBC. Hate to confuse you but you're going to actually

have to come up with some relevant facts in this discussion!

[Aerows]

53. Unfortunately for yourself

You need to, as well, and something besides clever icons. Gods, you have such potential, my friend. I'm starting to feel sorry for you at this point, and I mean that sincerely.

[frylock]

72. come up with some relevant facts in this discussion?!

this discussion? for fucking real?!!

[whatchamacallit]

32. So Evo's cool then, right?

[Marrah_G]

35. What do you think about the US government being able to ground another leaders plane?

Perhaps over-stepping a bit?

[stevenleser]

37. In which state did that happen? I know it didn't happen here in NY. nt

[Marrah_G]

39. Now you are just feigning ignorance

And frankly Steven, I think that is beneath you.

[stevenleser]

43. Really? We grounded a plane here in the US? Do tell! nt

[Marrah_G]

44. I'm done

And I'm disappointed in you. I really am.

[Aerows]

47. Me too

Another brilliant liberal voice co-opted to parrot propaganda. Just sickening to watch .

[Aerows]

49. More feigning ignorance

And Marrah_G is right. It is beneath you.

[HiPointDem]

77. we might go further: what do you think of the US being able to publicly MURDER foreign heads

of state over A LIE?

not to mention the secret murders.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

38. More anti-latin American xenophobia from center-right Democrats.

Go back to your Faux News punditry.

[stevenleser]

41. LMAO, see my #40!

[ForgoTheConsequence]

73. Keep laughing.

I don't find uninformed xenophobia funny. Apparently anyone with access to Google and Wikipedia is an "expert" these days. Didn't you tell someone they couldn't interpret the 4th Amendment unless they with a constitutional lawyer? When did you get your degree in Latin American studies? Get over yourself.

[SidDithers]

42. DU rec...

and the bleating from the perpetually outraged is kinda fun to watch.

Sid

[ljm2002]

45. What is this relevant to?

If it is to draw attention to the fact that most governments spy on their citizens, okay, that is a worthwhile point.

If it is to claim that Evo Morales' government ALSO spies on its citizens, just like the US and several European countries, and that therefore, Morales has no right to claim standard diplomatic immunity when he flies over foreign lands, then no, that is not a worthwhile point.

[cali]

48. it's some weird equivalency thing

I think that the op is somehow saying that because Bolivia conducts surveillance on its citizens, we shouldn't be concerned by mass surveillance here in the U.S.

[ljm2002]

50. I see...

...it is a deflection of some sort, that much is clear.

[Aerows]

46. Okay

diversion #12 . That will definitely get you somewhere. You are just batting 1000 on the PR scale today, aren't you? Some people just get notice because they try too hard.

Man. You deserve a bonus for this work!

[Rex]

52. I love watching him self destruct

as of right now I think he is going for a third helping of crow.

[Aerows]

54. I don't like watching people self destruct

because there is good in all of us, I think.

Certain arguments and ways of manipulating an argument? I take great joy in watching them destruct like the bombs that land in a toilet that they are, to ever be flushed from history.

[DirkGently]

51. Oh. Equivalency? Sooo .. if Bolivia diverted Obama's plane

to catch a Bolivian dissident it thought he was hiding aboard, that would be cool?

Riiight.

Nothing to see here, folks.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

60. +1

[MNBrewer]

55. I don't know. I do know the US does.

[Cooley Hurd]

58. So many replies, so little recs...

Have you finally noticed the metrics of your argument, Skippy?

[stevenleser]

61. LOL! Another excellent appeal to Bandwagon fallacy!

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/bandwagon.html

Also Known as: Peer Pressure.

Description of Bandwagon

The Bandwagon is a fallacy in which a threat of rejection by one's peers (or peer pressure) is substituted for evidence in an "argument." This line of "reasoning" has the following form:

Person P is pressured by his/her peers or threatened with rejection.
Therefore person P's claim X is false.

[Cooley Hurd]

63. I just can't watch this video or hear this song too much:

[stevenleser]

64. LMAO, I attacked the administration for two weeks straight on my radio show re: SS & Medicare!

but please continue!!!!

[Cooley Hurd]

66. Yet, you give them a pass on this FUNDAMENTAL issue...

The key word here is FUNDAMENTAL.

[stevenleser]

68. SS & Medicare is not fundamental? That's certainly up for debate.

The greater point is that I am not a cult of personality type. I will happily disagree with and call out the administration when I think they have actually done something wrong.

[Cooley Hurd]

69. NOT stopping the usurpation of the 4th Amendment is right?

[stevenleser]

70. We're starting to get into that discussion here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023169150

I encourage you to join us.

[Cooley Hurd]

71. Reading the responses to your OP in your thread...

...I have little to add.

[progressoid]

62. WooHoo! We're as good as Bolivia!

[Scurrilous]

75. First France, now Bolivia...

..I guess this means electing Socialists isn't the answer.

[rhett o rick]

79. I see you are still running interference for that lying Republican Clapper and his pal Mueller.

You choose strange bedfellows. Just sayin.