How could Zimmerman gotten to the gun with Martin sitting on him?

[TorchTheWitch]

That to me is the most obvious reason why Zimmerman's gun was not in the holster as he said it was while he was supposedly being beaten up. He says (and his attorney, O'Mara, confirmed) that Martin was sitting on top of him straddling him with his knees up near his armpits when Z thought he either saw the gun or felt it with his thigh, started moving his hand down toward it and that's when Z grabbed it out and shot him.

So, just how does Z physically get to the gun past Martin's leg? He would either have had to somehow get his hand and arm underneath Martin's leg which he said was pressed against his body or somehow gotten his arm up and over martin's thigh and then down to his own waist to get it. How can either be physically possible especially since that happened very quickly because he claimed Martin was going for his gun?

The only possible way is that Martin was straddling him with a "wide stance" to allow room for Z to move his hand and arm between his own body and Martin's thigh, but Z never says he moved his leg away. And why on earth would he? If he saw the gun or felt it with his thigh and somehow knew it was a gun why on earth would he try to take it himself knowing that Z could also get to it that way or would he clamp his thighs tight on his body to make sure that Z COULDN'T get to the gun? And if he didn't see it, then how would he even know that it WAS a gun? And if he didn't know or wasn't sure it was a gun why on earth would he lift his thigh to find out what it was with his hand while he's in the middle of a fight?

I don't believe it was actually PHYSICALLY possible for Z to have gotten to his gun in the positions they were in. That goes a hell of a long way to the belief that Z already had his gun out and in his hand which was the whole reason for the fight and the fight was happening because Martin was trying to stop him from being able to use that gun on him. And if Z was ever in fear of his life it was the fear that Martin WOULD get that gun from him and the whole reason that he shot him.

But if that gun was out already, Martin had every right to fear for HIS life and do everything he could to keep from getting shot.

[JimDandy]

1. I'm with you.

Occam's Razor says the easiest and therefore best explanation for everything that happened is Zimmerman pulled the gun on Trayvon almost from the get go.

Nice reasoning!

[RGR375]

4. What can you say

The stupid burns!

[JimDandy]

7. A lot, as it turns out.

It looks like the stupid just might...and he burned right through all the money the gun proponents gave him...or, rather, ate through it.

Since you don't have anything relevant to add, I'll just tell you that I am the same makeup as the jurors. A few weeks before the trial, the only thing I really knew about this case was that a white neighborhood watch guy had killed a black male teen and was not arrested for it, because of a weird law where all the shooter had to say to the police is that he had been defending himself on his own ground and that the police couldn't then arrest him.

I've learned a lot about the case in the last month...much of it during the trial. I had never seen or heard Zimmerman's audio or video statements till the trial. The inconsistencies btw his statements, the contrived and unusually worded phrases he had his victim saying, the illogical actions he had them both doing, and the almost total lack of accounting for his movements during what he said was a fight for his life (he said nothing about what he specifically did to fight back in response to, as he stated, being punched, smothered, mounted, grabbed by the head, slammed into concrete...nothing!)

And added to that, the public learned for the first time in May that Zimmerman had been training 3 times a week at a fight gym for a year and a half before he killed Trayvon! He and his attorneys hid that important bit of info from the police, from the prosecutors, and from the public...the jury pool that they instead tried to taint with the false info that the victim was the one in the fight making MMA fighting movements.

And on top of all that, Zimmerman had been taking criminal justice classes in which he learned all about the components of a stand your ground defense and what it took to claim self-defense...and then lied on TV about not knowing anything about SYG before he killed Trayvon.

The jurors were hearing and learning those same things. Zimmerman's own statements are what have convinced me that he in fact murdered Trayvon, and if I am believing that at this point, it's a good bet the jurors are too.

It now would take learning something really big during this next defense phase part of the trial to dissuade me of my reasoned belief that he is guilty of murder. And, if I am trying to come up with a scenario of the fight that actually makes sense and accounts for the evidence (like the whole confrontation starting and ending with a struggle over control of where Zimmerman was pointing his gun), then the jury is probably doing so, too.

But you go ahead and discount the reasoning of someone who is the same makeup as the members of the jury...Yes, the stupid does burn.

[Just Saying]

2. He couldn't.

Just like:

Trayvon couldn't have hidden behind foot high bushes.

Zimmerman couldn't have had his head hit on pavement anywhere near as many times as he claims according to his injuries as evaluated by experts.

Zimmerman couldn't have been lost in is own complex where he was "neighborhood watch" unless he's an idiot or a horrid neighborhood watch captain.

He said this:

HANNITY: A lot of this case legally -- and we are going to get to Mark in a few minutes here and ask him about a lot of legal aspects, because there are so many of them in this case -- has to do with stand your ground. You have heard a lot about it. And I was just curious, prior to this night, this incident, had you even heard stand your ground?
ZIMMERMAN: No, sir.
HANNITY: You have never heard about it before?
ZIMMERMAN: No.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/2012/07/18/exclusive-george-zimmerman-breaks-silence-hannity#ixzz2Y6kLmz3Q

Which couldn't be true because if THIS:

Alexis Carter, an army lawyer, taught one of Zimmerman's criminal justice courses at Seminole State College. Carter testified Wednesday that he covered the Stand Your Ground law, specifically in the context of violent crimes and murder. He said he showed relevant YouTube videos in class and paused them frame-by-frame, asking students, "What is this person justified in doing?" Carter also said he gave Zimmerman an A in the course.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/alexis-carter-testifies-in-stand-your-ground-2013-7#ixzz2Y6mhEuLU

Zimmerman is a liar.

[RGR375]

5. Alexis Carter also said

Stand your ground does not exist it was the nick name given to the modification of the law. Also he advised his students that you do not wait until you are half dead to use deadly force. Then he lectured the jury to the fact that if a reasonable person believed that if his life was in danger that person did not have to have any wounds on them.

[Just Saying]

6. Yeah

But your boy Zummy lied.

And your avoidance of that which is the topic of the thread speaks volumes.

[earcandle]

12. I remember when Zimmerman got out of the police car he had no bloody marks on his face nor on the

back of his head. If you look at that footage, he gets out, the police take his jacket and during that exchange you see his face and the back of this head and nada.

[yardwork]

16. Yeah, Zimmerman cleaned up good for somebody

who had just had his head bashed on a concrete sidewalk 20 or 30 times. And it's impressive that he was able to talk to the police for hours after that. Zimmerman is a manly man, except when he had to shoot an unarmed kid in fear for his life. I guess Superman Zimmerman was temporarily absent during that minute.

[RGR375]

3. Ever been in a fight?

I have been on top & bottom and i will tell you the person on the bottom squirms like a contortion artist. Zimmerman's arms were not pinned and yes he could have reached around martins leg to the weapon on his belt. It is not that hard to believe.

[yardwork]

17. Zimmerman said his arms were pinned.

We're talking about Zimmerman's own words.

[madokie]

8. I think that Zimmerman shot Trayvon premeditatedly

These punks, they always get away. This time he wasn't going to let that happen, no sirree he wasn't and didn't. Murdered a young man who was coming into his own, cut him down like blade of grass.
I hope justice will be served and this murderer spends the rest of his, hopefully long life, in a cell somewhere locked up like the animal he is

[JI7]

9. i also think he wanted to be viewed as a hero for killing a criminal

remember, even after Trayvon was killed , Zimmerman was referring to him as a "suspect".

[madokie]

10. That too

If one looks at his, zimmermans, behavior after the fact he was admitting guilt at ever turn even though he was saying otherwise. He premeditated this murder, no doubt in my mind.
Lets hope that justice prevails

The scary part is he shows no remorse for taking a life.

[Kingofalldems]

11. Boy these gun worshipers going to the wall for their hero Zimmerman.

[Voice for Peace]

13. I think he never took his hand off his gun from the time he got out of the car until he shot Trayvon

which was why he wasn't fist-ready for fighting.

IF Trayvon was overpowering him in any
way, it's ONLY because Zimmerman was fighting
one handed with his attention on the other hand
and the gun.

He stepped out of his car to follow Trayvon,
and to prevent him from getting away before
the police got there. He had his hand on his
gun in its holster, in case he needed to use it.

Then
One hand on gun, one hand grabbing Trayvon
to prevent him leaving. Trayvon shoves or
pushes him off, maybe even a punch.. "get
OFF" Rachel heard Trayvon say.

George falls and he HITS HIS HEAD because he
can't use his gun hand for balance.

Trayvon gets ON him, to prevent him
taking gun out of the holster, or if it's already out
he's trying to prevent Zimmerman
pointing the gun at him.

The trial is convincing me of Zimmerman's guilt
in a way I wasn't before. I never thought he was
innocent, but I didn't think 2nd degree. Now if
on the jury I think I would vote guilty.

I was reading about this judge, said she has
a tendency to give harsh sentences to guilty
defendants.

[Ruby the Liberal]

14. It doesn't appear to be physically possible

Zimmy waiving a gun around would explain the screaming (that ceased immediately upon the weapon being shot).

[TorchTheWitch]

15. that's what tells me it was Martin screaming

Because the scream was abruptly cut off after the gunshot. Even if none on the jury could tell by the voice, that's plenty enough to believe it was not Zimmerman that was screaming.

[Calista241]

18. It was a fight.

Crazy shit happens in a fight. If the fight lasted 2 minutes, and for 20 seconds Martin was on top, that's a shitload of time for all kinds of shit to happen.

I doubt either combatant, if Trayvon had lived, could accurately describe all the different moves, attacks amd counters by the other person for the entire 2 minutes. In addition, the first person to throw and land a punch would have a MASSIVE advantage for the rest of the fight.

(I just made up the 2 minute length for example purposes, I have no idea how long the fight actually lasted).

[TorchTheWitch]

19. Except that Zimmerman gave a detailed description

of that part of the fight. Several times. His claim is that he was on his back with Martin straddling him with Martin's knees up near his armpits when he went for his gun. Which is just a physical impossibility and one that the defense has been desperately trying to have overlooked.

The person with the MASSIVE advantage is the one that is ARMED. Had Zimmerman been punched in the face the FIRST thing he would have been doing was going for his gun if he didn't have it out already. Frankly, I think he long since already had it out. It was that gun that gave him the courage to get out of his car, chase down Martin and confront him. He would never have done any of that without the protection of his gun. That's why people HAVE guns they carry around in the first place.

I also don't believe that he got his nose hit by a punch either. And that's something I always LIKED to believe when this case first came out on the news... I'd be a lot happier if Martin DID get at least one good punch in before he died.