I've read here a dozen times today that DU is an echo chamber, has no wider impact, etc.

[WilliamPitt]

Once upon a time, DU considered itself a think tank of sorts. People came here to inform, inspire, to become informed and inspired, and to carry that information and inspiration out into the wider world.

In the spring of 2002, as the country still sat in a fearful crouch after 9/11 and the motherfuckers in the Bush administration were running wild, a few of us on DU who live around here decided to do something. We crafted a detailed pamphlet on the hard realities of the day, photocopied it a thousand times, and stood in a busy Boston square to hand them out. We talked to anyone willing to talk, argued with those who wanted to argue, and spent a day together in an act of simple education.

...which seems quaint and maybe even a little silly after twelve years. We were genuinely worried at the time about being assaulted or targeted in some way - if you think things are more paranoid now, I would argue you've blocked out the darkness that was late-'01 and all of '02-'03 - but we did it, and came back here to DU, and shared our story and our pamphlet...and in the weeks and months that followed, piles and piles of DUers followed suit where they lived, and came back to share their experiences here.

And if you think that didn't make a difference - even a little one - then you are cynical past the point of redemption. DU-as-think-tank and DU-as-activism facilitated that...and it still is those things. It takes a truly cynical person to look at what happens here and see only an echo chamber.

People are informed here, inspired here, enraged here, engaged here, and that carries into the wider world...where real people have real conversations, cast real votes, donate real money, and volunteer real time for or against what they may.

That is "feet to the fire," and it matters.

Toss even a small stone into a still pool, and the ripples spread in all directions in an ever-widening circle.

It matters.

[think]

1. Outstanding

[winter is coming]

2. Some of the "DU is meaningless" posts probably express genuine despair,

but I suspect others are deliberate attempts to poison the well.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

10. It's always the same group of people attempting to poison the well...

with their ad nauseam "DU doesn't matter, DU isn't the real world," but DU life goes on around them. Which is pretty amusing. I imagine very few take them seriously, in spite of their arsenal of blue links, Crap Blogs, and ROFL smilies.

[Romulus Quirinus]

12. It seems odd that so many of the "internet doesn't matter" people

have > 10^5 posts. Why spend so much time on something that doesn't matter, convincing people who don't matter that bombing, torture, spying don't matter?

[Jackpine Radical]

23. So which is worse, apathy or ignorance?

As for me, I don't know & I don't care.



Please note--I have a long-standing allergy to the Sarcasm Thingie.

[vlyons]

28. +10

[Buzz Clik]

26. Poster with >10^4 posts here...

... and I believe that DU too frequently borders on irrelevant. 99% of the things posted here (include a hefty portion of my contributions) are so much pap.

It's the rare gems that make any board useful; we have gems and golden nuggets here. We also have a shitload of iron pyrite.

[vlyons]

30. iron pyrite is pretty,

when it's polished.

[Buzz Clik]

34. Yep. And when it weathers, is loses its luster and exudes pure acid.

[bemildred]

3. I feel that our perceptions here are managed much more aggressively than in the past.

And I take that to indicate that we are not thought to be irrelevant.

[leveymg]

11. I also see it backfiring and a lot more open pushback and criticism of the Admin and Dem figures.

That tells me the leadership is just as badly served as ever by the true believer yes-men and hatchets they surround themselves with.

[bemildred]

20. It makes it too obvious, is what it does.

You cannot be the impartial authoritative third party testimonial giver, while also going at it hammer and tongs with those who disagree and indulging in obvious emotional arguments, name-calling, and whatnot.

And likewise with the team efforts and the coordinated daily spin/foreshadowing and whatnot, it makes it too obvious, and even if it's spontaneous, nobody will believe it is because of the "confirmation bias" which is our jargon du jour here today, if it looks coordinated, people will think it is coordinated, even it it's really random herds of people who are upset.

So people stop listening, they tune you out.

[leveymg]

36. The "people stop listening, tune u out" may be the point - more poisoning the well than persuasion.

The incessant focus on certain angles, however, does keep the story alive, so the effect seems to work both ways.

You're right, though, the overall effect seems to be self-cancelling.

[bemildred]

40. Yes, a lot of that too. All noise is good when you don't like the message.

And distractions, emergencies, and hot button issues. Very popular with the Mighty Wurlitzer too, seen any missing white girls lately? Stall, divert, and dissemble, wait for something to suck the oxygen out of the issue, nothing to see here, move along, business as usual, always been like this, ...

But I think it's too late for that, too late once Snowden got his stuff distributed, it's global.

[bleever]

42. Great sub-thread.

Cheers to you both.

[leveymg]

53. Thanx. Next round's on me.

[leveymg]

52. I think it's too late to snuff the story, and anything that happened to Snowden or GG would simply

make this explode into a "supershitstorm" for the USG. There may actually be some appetite for opening up the NSA and spook contractors to more oversight and some trimming back of programs and budgets. Time will tell.

[bemildred]

60. Let's say I will find it very interesting if no heads at the NSA roll over this debacle. nt

[JDPriestly]

80. Yes. The DU dissidents who were criticized for daring to tell the truth about the importance of

Snowden's revelations and documents and the dangers of the NSA program are now being supported by the people in many countries of the world and by the leaders of many other countries. The world is watching. And DU is where people who are unaware of what the world thinks about what it is seeing were able to preview that world opinion right here on DU.

There are news sources that just print what people want to see, just say what people want to hear. They are useless. You cannot limit your news to the American sources. Even MSNBC does not have a wide enough, free enough view of things. I haven't seen Maddow's reaction to this surveillance scandal. Did she even mention it?

So DU is a place where people can respond to the news in real time. We don't have to be professional or polished about our posts. That is freeing.

Digression: I'm reading (slowly) a memoir of Theodore White, famous as the author of The Making of the President on JFK's campaign. He was Henry Luce's Time reporter in China during WWII. He tells about his rift with Luce. Luce censored in a way (stronger word maybe than appropriate) White's reports on Chiang Kai Shek and Mao. White saw Mao as someone to be dealt with and Chiang Kai Shek as a weak leader who would ultimately fail us. White was right. Stilwell agreed with White and was relieved of command of the army in China. That was a huge mistake. You will often hear the expression, like Stillwell in China. I learned from this book what that means.

Back on topic: We on DU are in the position that White would have liked to have been. We talk about what we really think. We don't have to please a publisher or an employer or the government. That is why we need a free internet and the right to communicate freely.

I give a big thanks to Edward Snowden for outing the surveillance program.

[kentuck]

82. Bravo!

Good post.

[leveymg]

105. I'll second that. Thanks for the historical perspective. This really is a period like the '40s -

the country is again in transition, and it's unclear whether it will be the left or right who lead the Democratic Party and the nation from this point forward. We have more power than most of us realize, if only we seize the moment and refuse to be made afraid again.

[graham4anything]

46. Yup. what you say. nt

[vlyons]

31. More like the money men/women

Alas yes, Obama is not a stranger to lobbyists with BIG $$$$$$$

[Mojorabbit]

100. Yes! nt

[xchrom]

14. +1

[suffragette]

4. And we met up and raised our voices

But some want to convince us that we are powerless to create change.

K&R

[bigtree]

5. seriously? DU has been an echo chamber on many things

. . . wrapping all of the worst of it in the worthwhile just brushes past the reams and reams of type spent here repeating false mantras and exaggerated claims and charges against the Democratic party and our Democratic president.

When DU is informative, it's a winner. When it's mired in overwrought, self-serving hyperbole, it's a bore.

That doesn't mean DU doesn't matter or anything like that, Will. it just means that this is an open and varied forum where people post for many, many different reasons and motivations; some noble and worthwhile, some venting and cathartic, some inquisitive, some declarative, some just sounding out an idea which has been floating around in someone's head (not always going to be correct, relevant, or prescient). Even more motivations to post here . . . most all of them worth the time and effort, because there are folks here with a myriad of reasons and motivations to read the posts and respond.

But, 'echo chamber?' Yes, it can, undeniably be an echo chamber - for good or bad. Coming to grips with that reality might just allow some here to look beyond these pages and expand their perspective and pov.

[WilliamPitt]

8. When you agree with what you read, it's informative.

When you don't, it's an echo chamber.

But it is still a vehicle for action either way.

[bigtree]

22. I agree that it's a vehicle for action

. . .but I think it's an exaggeration to say that just recognizing or acknowledging the effects of the insulated nature of discussion in this Democratic forum is some form of closed-mindedness or a just function of bias.

As you say, it's can be a vehicle for good - good which 'echoes' in a way that resonates outside of this forum. Yet, it can also be an echo chamber of some of our worst instincts and rhetoric. That fact has been a sobering damper on my participation here over the years.

[Cha]

113. Definitely..

Yet, it can also be an echo chamber of some of our worst instincts and rhetoric. That fact has been a sobering damper on my participation here over the years.

And, no use pretending otherwise.

[bvar22]

32. +2

[Buzz Clik]

25. +1

[Number23]

88. "Coming to grips with that reality might just allow some here to look beyond these pages and expand

their perspective and pov."

Perfectly said. And it's not an accident that the place is an echo chamber either. Many Democrats, particularly many brown ones, have long since stopped posting here in disgust. The place is so skewed to be almost unreadable and yet, the denials of what it is and what it has become still fly freely and unsurprisingly, get lots and lots of all important recs.

[Pale Blue Dot]

92. What I hate is this talk about "motivations" instead of "ideas."

You don't know what my motivations are when I post here. No except me knows that. Therefore, it is dishonest, pointless and counterproductive to debate my "motivations." What you CAN debate are my ideas. Sadly, I see my ideas and the ideas of fellow DUers completely ignored in order to focus on an irrelevant debate about "motivations."

And just to answer the inevitable question - it's irrelevant because you can't know the truth about my motivations, or of ANY DUer.

[leveymg]

6. As I once explained to you about my own experience, Will, it wasn't all paranoia. It's intimidation.

In the period after 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq, people got visits by armed FBI agents at their workplaces, lost jobs, were openly spied on and harrassed because of netroots investigatory journalism that was and continues to be published here, first.

Today, regardless of the infestation by Party flacks and wannabe Truth Squad captains, DU is and always has had an impact wider and deeper than its own Membership. The very high rank-order of postings that show up on Google proves that.

[Hydra]

7. DU has always been relevant

Even the people who find themselves here who never talk to another person about what they see or learn...they are changed. That change is not invisible. They see what's going on and they don't approve.

Those that do take the information to other people are making a difference. It spreads to open minds.

The people complaining on DU about how the arguments don't help are usually the people who aren't open to change.

To be blunt: What we're doing here may not save our nations. It may not save our environment. I may not stop genocide. It may not stop the Banksters. What we're really doing is lifting ourselves out of ignorance. If we accomplish that, we can do more from there.

Drops in the pond...as we found out this week, the entrenched powers are afraid of those ripples. They mean something.

[marble falls]

9. More good stuff, thanks Will.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

13. Absolutely remember those days, and we still are the best real-time think tank on the planet

It is where I come to not only learn but to sharpen my debate skills without fear of getting thrown out for expressing a LIBERAL IDEAL.

Those were the days, and I got a feeling these will be the days too

Thanks for keeping on, keeping on

[Zorra]

35. Yes. I've seen many ideas first posted here that were picked up and

reiterated by journalists writing independently and/or for publications within days after the ideas were first posted here at DU.

Those were indeed the days, when we were all united against the ideas and ideologies of the right wing.

[kentuck]

15. Unfortunately...

A lot of DU'ers did not go through the 2001-2002 period. They do not have any respect for what DU'ers went through at that time. This is just another "discussion group" for them to debate and argue and meet like-minded people. I have no idea what they were doing in 2001 and 2002 but I wish they had been here.

[davidpdx]

108. I lurked for a long time before I signed up in 2008

Not as far back as when DU started, but for a few years. Before then I simply didn't know about it. The more members DU gets the more word gets out about it which is how its grown to over 200,000 members. Also there are a good number of Democrats that live overseas (like myself) who are less likely to know about it unless they talk to someone who's a member. I have a quite a few expat friends on Facebook and I could probably do an informal poll and see how many of them know about the site. My guess would be a few.

As to why I lurked for a long time, I don't know. If I had I would have more than the 9,000+ posts I do now. I have seen many people mention when they are new that they had been reading for a long time before signing up.

[merrily]

16. You read those words because you wrote them.

Funny how that works.

[WilliamPitt]

17. Eh?

[Buzz Clik]

24. ...

[RainDog]

18. k&r n/t

[zeemike]

19. And that is the reason I have stayed around sense the beginning.

Because their are people here that can inform me and they have and still do.
There have been some that have left but still there are plenty here that still inform me and inspire me greatly...I guess I will be here till the last progressive dies...or I do.
Some of the most inspiring writing I have read has been right here.

[pipi_k]

21. Hmmm...I don't know

if it is an echo chamber, but I do believe there are quite a few who would like it to be.

Usually the ones who announce they're putting someone on ignore...not because the other person is nasty, but because that person has a different opinion.

Pretty sad, really.

[vlyons]

27. works for me

I check in here daily, several times daily. I occasionally post a reply to some threads.

[kpete]

29. BRAVO: I have really needed to hear a post like yours!!!!

Toss even a small stone into a still pool, and the ripples spread in all directions in an ever-widening circle.

many of us claim to be liberal, yet we forget:

lib·er·al

Adjective
Open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values.
Noun
A person of liberal views.
Synonyms
generous - bounteous - lavish - bountiful - free

thanks and peace,
kpete (proud to be known as "a bleeding heart liberal" or commie to some)

[ReRe]

33. K&R^^^^ ;-)

and K&R to WRP, too!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

37. A journey of a thousand li starts with one step. - Lao Tse

[davidpdx]

109. Good point

The question is: When will DU take that step as a community?

[bvar22]

38. I have many war stories from the Old Days at DU,

...and even back then there were the naysayers claiming that we were wasting our time on DU,
that DU was just an "Echo Chamber" .

THEN,
one day in 2002 (IIRC),
Rush Limbaugh attacked DU on his national radio broadcast,
and I KNEW that day that our small group here at DU was making a difference,
or Limbaugh would have never noticed us and taken the time to attack us.
I also knew that DU would never be the same again.

Happy 4th!

[kentuck]

39. And the US Senate knew about DU also.

Remember when we filled Barbara Boxer's office with roses?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

41. I was with friends back then having lunch and said something against Bush...

One of the people at the table was genuinely ALARMED that someone might overhear me.

I said, "So? What are they going to do? Call a cop? This isn't a dictatorship as much as the Right Wing would like us to believe it is."

[Crewleader]

43. I remember William

[WilliamPitt]

44. CREWLEADER!!!!!

Ladies and gentlemen, a true DU hero/institution/dear, dear friend right here.

[Crewleader]

97. Back at You William

[MuseRider]

54. Awesome to see you here! n/t

[Crewleader]

71. Thank you MuseRider

Happy 4th to You!

[MuseRider]

79. And to you Crewleader.

A blast from the past you are, unless you are hiding among the groups

Seeing your name gave me a good feeling, like it used to be here. There have been several of those the last couple of days. Your being here just topped it all off.

[Crewleader]

96. MuseRider, You made this lady feel real good!

[Mojorabbit]

102. What MuseRider said! nt

[kentuck]

63. CREW!

So good to see you!

[Crewleader]

72. Thanks kentuck

It's good to see you too!

[kentuck]

75. I was just thinking of you a few days ago.

So good to see you are still kicking.

[Crewleader]

77. Thanks friend

Good to see You are still kicking too!

[bvar22]

64. Welcome Home, Old Timer.

Happy Freedom Day!

[Crewleader]

74. Hello there

Happy 4th to you, old timer too.

[silvershadow]

45. I was here. Awesome post. nt

[Kurovski]

47. k&R.

If Knowledge is power, then it's just that.

The truism does not change for regular folks on the internet. Not in a Democracy.

[polly7]

48. This is a great post,

DU has become essential for me ..... I don't trust MSM or even news outlets I used to think at least tried to get it right. Here, every tidbit of info is debated and either debunked or verified to the point I feel confident in discussing it and maybe change a few minds in RL. And, I have. If they've gone on to do the same .... yay, DU!

[xiamiam]

49. DU was better before but there are some great minds and activists here right now

The magic trick Obama pulled has been revealed to anyone with a desire to know and more than half of us can talk about it out loud here now . This place became unbearable to me.between late 2009 (surge speech when I finally figured it out) and after this last election. Other than that, criticizing the president was barely tolerated...and that made this place much less interesting or progressive or even truly democratic . That's the way I see it. You guys don't even know me but it hurt my feelings. It hurt my feelings and I felt stupid that I had even felt a part of a community of online strangers. But, gheezh, there were some pretty darned politically enlightened hellraisers when I first came here and I learned so much from them. Party over policy or even morality threw me for a loop after Obama. ..so I learned from other places and all in all it really was best for me. Lots of folks held the light here throughout that time and my hats off to them for being so strong. I think we're back on the road again.

[kentuck]

66. Good that you are back.

[kentuck]

68. Gotta get off that number...

[xiamiam]

76. that's very sweet..ty..i never really left all the way..just came here less and posted less..nt

[nolabels]

50. Sometimes as friends you just have to hang out

Friends hang out together because they know that will be the best thing to do (even if the place hang out at is just an echo chamber and boring).

To me this place is fun and exciting most of the time. I have various reasons for coming here also. How any of it could change anything we might not know mostly. It is hard to predict anything knowing even a some simple movement or action even by just one individual can change the whole world.

The best thing i like about DU is that it can bring about a whole new reality because you get to see a glimpse of it through someone else's eyes

[AndyA]

51. People who say DU is an echo chamber, and has no wider impact

Have probably forgotten that LOTS of people who are in Congress, or work for someone in Congress, read DU. Elizabeth Edwards was a member of DU, Alan Grayson is a member, and I'll bet there are lots of others, including staffers in offices in Washington, DC that either visit DU regularly or are members.

We know the right wingers read DU, as it's been mentioned on right wing shows. I also think it's possible a few right wingers have been converted, once they see for themselves what the facts are, here at DU. Not every Republican is as incurious as Dubya Bush.

I learn things all the time at DU, and appreciate communicating with others who aren't out to show how superior they are because of their knowledge on a subject, while at the same time making you feel small because you aren't at their level. Others want to pick fights or stir up trouble, but for the most part DUers are helpful, and glad to share their knowledge without being condescending about it.

I've enlightened people because of things I've learned here that I would have otherwise let go, and it has made a difference in some cases.

[Marrah_G]

55. Well said Mr. Pitt

And a happy 4th to you and your family.

[annabanana]

56. ooga smooga booga wooga?

Ripples radiating outwards

Or something like that

[BlueStreak]

57. And that is completely different from a forum that just wants to atgue about

Zimmerman's nose injury

Snowden's girlfriend's dance pole

etc.

Frankly this forum is hard to distinguish from Free Republic lately. The quality of discussion / information seems to be at an all time low. I hope something can change to put it more on the track you describe.

[Uncle Joe]

58. Kicked and recommended, the ripple in the pond is a dead-on analogy.

Thanks for the thread, WilliamPitt.

[FailureToCommunicate]

59. Yes! And some stones make bigger ripples than others here...

Thanks to all the heavy lifters of DU!

[WillyT]

61. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

[Bonhomme Richard]

62. We stood up and gave our real names.

I remember the post when we stood up for our ideals and posted our real names and it was a huge response.

[MuseRider]

87. Yes, I too remember that.

Many many people did just that.

[Lifelong Protester]

65. K & R because DU does matter

I have 'only' been here since 2004, but I know I am better informed about what is going on, get to see (honestly!) more than one side to an issue. I have to check in here everyday to get the 'inside scoop' on what is happening 'out there'.

I say, thank you, DU, a HUGE thanks to people like William Pitt.

[cheapdate]

67. DU has had a huge influence on my life.

I've been inspired and amazed by eloquence, intelligence, and passion of the people here since the beginning. I've been inspired to sharpen my understanding of the issues and to learn how to advocate for them forcefully. I've been inspired to get involved and to participate in local, state, and national politics. I've spread ripples of my own, thanks in large part to DU.

So Thank You!

[calimary]

69. We at DU are more like trim tabs. WHO SAYS we don't have influence outside of this site?

Something I posted on another one of your threads, Will:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3165317

...this makes me think of Buckminster Fuller's trim tab metaphor.

Trim tabs are small end pieces on a wing or a rudder or something, that facilitates a change in direction of a very much larger object, like a ship or plane. Large objects like those are hard to move. You have to start small with something that's easy to manipulate. The trim tab moves the rudder and the rudder moves the larger vehicle.

It's remarkable how little and seemingly insignificant things can launch or accelerate something much larger.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trim_tab

You never know who's reading in, here. Alan Grayson does. Elizabeth Edwards used to. Fans of higher-profile writers like Will Pitt. We ALL have the potential to be trim tabs here. I just read a report linked from here that cited the Daily Kos and DU as manifestations of the Obama-is-fucked-and-nobody-supports-him-anymore interpretation. There's another level of extension beyond those "few thousand" regular readers of DU. The effect compounds and can start metastasizing like a cancer.

I just worry about damaging the brand. It can lead directly to republi-CONS snatching the White House again.

[hfojvt]

70. nice, but

coulda used that one quote from Robert Kennedy.

I remember back in the day I used DU to find out where the anti-war protest was in Lawrence and also about where and when Bush would be visiting the Kansas City area as well as Manhattan, Ks. Seems like there was more to do even if it was only calling Congress right focking now.

[randome]

73. I agree. Rarely will we see evidence of our effect outside DU.

But the nature of the Internet means we are most likely communicating to others outside our little circle. Even if indirectly and infrequently.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[JDPriestly]

78. The focus on DU is on the information shared, not on the bright, shining stars who start

the threads. I like that.

Anyone who comes to DU and has a contribution to make that is worthwhile and not insulting is heard.

I do not think people should put people on ignore.

When you put someone on ignore, you miss the opportunity to learn and perhaps understand a point of view that is different from your own. I don't think I have anyone on ignore although I have been tempted.

Why come here if you ignore other DUers? If you only want to communicate with people who agree with you, there are dozens of other (boring) web forums to join. This, in my view, is a place to broaden my horizons, my understanding, the scope of my information and, vicariously, of my experience.

Thank you DU. You do matter. You are unique I believe. The contributions are rawer, less polished than on some of the sites that feature professional writers, but much more alive and interesting. Thanks.

[Enthusiast]

81. Nice post, WilliamPitt!

Special insight.

[siligut]

83. COINTELPRO Techniques for dilution, misdirection and control of a internet forum

I am reposting this so others are able to see what is happening on DU. Not to say that honest liberals aren't letting all the crap get to them, but some of what we are seeing is deliberate erosion of our confidence, strength and unity. I have especially noticed technique #2, consensus cracking. This is almost funny when two newbies are already BFFs and the banter between them is so trite it appears scripted.

INTERESTING! "COINTELPRO Techniques for dilution, misdirection and control of a internet forum"


Found this posted at another message board. Apparently we are not alone.
BHN

"There are several techniques for the control and manipulation of a internet forum no matter what, or who is on it. We will go over each technique and demonstrate that only a minimal number of operatives can be used to eventually and effectively gain a control of a 'uncontrolled forum.'

Technique #1 - 'FORUM SLIDING'
If a very sensitive posting of a critical nature has been posted on a forum - it can be quickly removed from public view by 'forum sliding.' In this technique a number of unrelated posts are quietly prepositioned on the forum and allowed to 'age.' Each of these misdirectional forum postings can then be called upon at will to trigger a 'forum slide.' The second requirement is that several fake accounts exist, which can be called upon, to ensure that this technique is not exposed to the public. To trigger a 'forum slide' and 'flush' the critical post out of public view it is simply a matter of logging into each account both real and fake and then 'replying' to prepositined postings with a simple 1 or 2 line comment. This brings the unrelated postings to the top of the forum list, and the critical posting 'slides' down the front page, and quickly out of public view. Although it is difficult or impossible to censor the posting it is now lost in a sea of unrelated and unuseful postings. By this means it becomes effective to keep the readers of the forum reading unrelated and non-issue items.

Technique #2 - 'CONSENSUS CRACKING'
A second highly effective technique (which you can see in operation all the time at www.abovetopsecret.com ) is 'consensus cracking.' To develop a consensus crack, the following technique is used. Under the guise of a fake account a posting is made which looks legitimate and is towards the truth is made - but the critical point is that it has a VERY WEAK PREMISE without substantive proof to back the posting. Once this is done then under alternative fake accounts a very strong position in your favour is slowly introduced over the life of the posting. It is IMPERATIVE that both sides are initially presented, so the uninformed reader cannot determine which side is the truth. As postings and replies are made the stronger 'evidence' or disinformation in your favour is slowly 'seeded in.' Thus the uninformed reader will most like develop the same position as you, and if their position is against you their opposition to your posting will be most likely dropped. However in some cases where the forum members are highly educated and can counter your disinformation with real facts and linked postings, you can then 'abort' the consensus cracking by initiating a 'forum slide.'

Technique #3 - 'TOPIC DILUTION'
Topic dilution is not only effective in forum sliding it is also very useful in keeping the forum readers on unrelated and non-productive issues. This is a critical and useful technique to cause a 'RESOURCE BURN.' By implementing continual and non-related postings that distract and disrupt (trolling ) the forum readers they are more effectively stopped from anything of any real productivity. If the intensity of gradual dilution is intense enough, the readers will effectively stop researching and simply slip into a 'gossip mode.' In this state they can be more easily misdirected away from facts towards uninformed conjecture and opinion. The less informed they are the more effective and easy it becomes to control the entire group in the direction that you would desire the group to go in. It must be stressed that a proper assessment of the psychological capabilities and levels of education is first determined of the group to determine at what level to 'drive in the wedge.' By being too far off topic too quickly it may trigger censorship by a forum moderator.

Technique #4 - 'INFORMATION COLLECTION'
Information collection is also a very effective method to determine the psychological level of the forum members, and to gather intelligence that can be used against them. In this technique in a light and positive environment a 'show you mine so me yours' posting is initiated. From the number of replies and the answers that are provided much statistical information can be gathered. An example is to post your 'favourite weapon' and then encourage other members of the forum to showcase what they have. In this matter it can be determined by reverse proration what percentage of the forum community owns a firearm, and or a illegal weapon. This same method can be used by posing as one of the form members and posting your favourite 'technique of operation.' From the replies various methods that the group utilizes can be studied and effective methods developed to stop them from their activities.

Technique #5 - 'ANGER TROLLING'
Statistically, there is always a percentage of the forum posters who are more inclined to violence. In order to determine who these individuals are, it is a requirement to present a image to the forum to deliberately incite a strong psychological reaction. From this the most violent in the group can be effectively singled out for reverse IP location and possibly local enforcement tracking. To accomplish this only requires posting a link to a video depicting a local police officer massively abusing his power against a very innocent individual. Statistically of the million or so police officers in America there is always one or two being caught abusing there powers and the taping of the activity can be then used for intelligence gathering purposes - without the requirement to 'stage' a fake abuse video. This method is extremely effective, and the more so the more abusive the video can be made to look. Sometimes it is useful to 'lead' the forum by replying to your own posting with your own statement of violent intent, and that you 'do not care what the authorities think!!' inflammation. By doing this and showing no fear it may be more effective in getting the more silent and self-disciplined violent intent members of the forum to slip and post their real intentions. This can be used later in a court of law during prosecution.

Technique #6 - 'GAINING FULL CONTROL'
It is important to also be harvesting and continually maneuvering for a forum moderator position. Once this position is obtained, the forum can then be effectively and quietly controlled by deleting unfavourable postings - and one can eventually steer the forum into complete failure and lack of interest by the general public. This is the 'ultimate victory' as the forum is no longer participated with by the general public and no longer useful in maintaining their freedoms. Depending on the level of control you can obtain, you can deliberately steer a forum into defeat by censoring postings, deleting memberships, flooding, and or accidentally taking the forum offline. By this method the forum can be quickly killed. However it is not always in the interest to kill a forum as it can be converted into a 'honey pot' gathering center to collect and misdirect newcomers and from this point be completely used for your control for your agenda purposes."

Great forum for those who follow peak oil.
"Life After the Oil Crash" (LATOC)
http://www.doomers.us/forum2 /

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x281170

[October]

117. ^ This.

While I didn't know the vernacular, I certainly recognize what's been going on. Having been around for a long time, I've seen the way threads change and are otherwise compromised/sabotaged.

[MuseRider]

84. My god I remember seeing that picture so many times.

It meant something.

I was not here until later 2002, at least as a member, but I remember a lot of actions over the years much like you describe.

I never thought of DU as reaching out because of itself, people who don't agree would never have felt happy here and people have a strong tendency to disregard what they read on a partisan website. I have always thought is was important. Mostly for those of us who came to it in desperation after the selection.

I learned here, so much I learned. I had never reached out and done anything much. I was afraid to post for the longest time and got creamed right away when I did because I had no idea how to speak and make any political sense.

Where DU is important, and other similar sites on both sides, is that we learn and we do go out and use what we learn. Actions like what you did way back then. I bet a lot of those with you had never done anything like that before. While I had participated in the anti Vietnam marches they were small and we were spoken to not speaking out.

Because of DU I learned enough to step out of my comfort zone. I actually do credit the experience here and the learning I got here with my being able to speak out and eventually become a Founder of a state wide group that had no chance in hell of ever lasting but it has. We are growing and we are still fighting, something pretty rare in Kansas. Other than my wonderful, liberal sons it is probably one of my proudest contributions as a citizen. Without the learning I got here from all of those who had been around this particular block I would have sat back and watched, maybe joined it later. I learned how to speak my mind. I was able to walk into an interview with the NYT and not wet myself. I helped run the group that shut down the Phelps ordinance, we won the election. ALL because I read and read and read here and had uncomfortable discussions and comfortable ones and people who were kind enough to help me learn and encourage me as I did.

It is uncomfortable in here now. Well it is uncomfortable out here now too. Things are changing and we are all learning some hard things. Fight we will, I wish it was more civil and there was more intellectual discussion. I tire of the "You suck" "No, you suck". Whatever, some will use what they get here and make a difference. So many of my friends just left and never returned and they have asked me why I stay. Well, I have people here I consider friends and I cherish them. I take my leave when I need to and come back after. I think I have learned to function within the rules, hey I am a first child....I FOLLOW rules even if I challenge them. I am in and out and when a good conversation is going I enjoy reading it. Whatever happens I have been helped by DU in quite a few ways and will continue to stick with it and see what happens.

Just my little story

[WilliamPitt]

89. MuseRider

[lunatica]

85. I really thought you were going to trash DU

Thanks for not doing so.

[felix_numinous]

86. K&R

[LiberalFighter]

90. If I didn't come here I would miss out on a lot.

It also provides a centralize source that is not available in just a few sites.

[valerief]

91. DU is a light in the dark. nt

[WonderGrunion]

93. Of course it matters, look at all the Occupy senators and congresspeople that were elected in 2012

Oh wait...

[WilliamPitt]

94. I C U

[ecstatic]

95. Is this an acknowledgement that the overall sentiment expressed here

has the power to affect the upcoming elections?

[TxDemChem]

98. Thank you for posting

I only joined last year, but I have been so inspired to be more active and to pass on credible information when presented with bullshit. During last year's election, I wanted to choke out (most figuratively, a couple literally) coworkers who were just driving me nuts. I found solace here and now I have help others wade through the crap they believe and hear. Weay not be perfect, but I truly believe DUers make a difference everyday. Thanks to all of you, and especially you WilliamPitt.

[boilerbabe]

99. hardcore Obama supporters like to claim DU isnt the norm. Du is MORE INFORMED

non DU, political discussion board DEMS are more apt to support Obama because they don't follow closely what he does.

[Summer Hathaway]

103. Nice try.

The notion that DUers are "better informed" than Dems posting on other boards went the way of the Dodo bird a long time ago.

Hey, remember the uproar over Obama unilaterally declaring May 1st as "Loyalty Day"?

It was declared on DU as yet another unprecedented power-grab by the POTUS, and a clear indication that he was attempting to turn May Day into something dismissive of average workers, etc.

But then it was pointed out that May 1st was designated as "Loyalty Day" decades ago, and acknowledged as such by every president since its inception.

I wish I'd known how to do screen shots back a few years ago. I remember two posts at the top of the Greatest Page: one was about how DUers were better informed than the average citizen. It was followed by a thread entitled (from memory here) "Obama abandons US to spend Christmas vacation in Hawaii".

Yep, DUers sure are 'better informed' than the average Joe ...

[CakeGrrl]

104. I seriously doubt it

I'd bet a majority of the people going on and on about NSA surveillance have no clue (without looking it up) which African countries the President visited this past week.

When pictures were posted of his visits to Ireland and England two years ago, some here had no idea he was over there or why.

I also seriously doubt that a number of people here know how many stops he makes every week to effectively campaign for the jobs and infrastructure bills that Congress refuses to pass.

But when they think the President's done 'em wrong, it's obsession central.

I wouldn't call that being informed.

[Mira]

101. WE matter.

Like seeds under the snow - we sprout all the time.
Beautiful post!

[RedCappedBandit]

106. This website does matter. Damn the trolls and naysayers.

I found this website when I was still in High School. My parents were both liberals and I was raised as such, but I hadn't found much interest in politics until an outstanding journalism teacher I had prompted my class to try to find sources for 'underground' news on the web.

I found DU. The intelligent discourse here shaped my own intellectual development. I am proud of the person I have grown into since high school, and am now working to earn my MSW.

This website has made a difference for me. I'm not the only one with a story, as minor as it may be. All of our experiences add up.

DU matters.

[libodem]

120. That really touches me

I don't know why but it kinda made me get all misty. And I'm not the sentimental type.

[ElboRuum]

107. Yes, very nice.

Although I'm a bit troubled by the first line.

"Once upon a time, DU considered itself a think tank of sorts."

True. In fact, that is what drew me here in the first place. It was probably one of the few open-to-the-public places on the internet where a person of left-leaning principles could discuss their ideas with like minded people. I said, "like minded". Not "equal minded". People closer to the center did not need to worry about being drubbed about the ears because they failed some liberal purity test concocted by a person whose principles were farther left. On the off that this did occur, it was generally considered that the community did NOT respect people who demanded lockstep behind a particular ideal or set of ideals.

Which brings me to my point.

Over the past month or so, I've seen DU line up behind Snowden. DU has, for the most part, lifted him up on their shoulders as a hero, and maybe he should be lauded so. However, it's kind of why I haven't been too active lately. I don't hold the "hero-of-the-people" view, and I know DU well enough to keep that view to myself. Why? Not because I can't or won't defend that position, but to do so would be a waste of time. DU is now not the DU you describe in the first line. It is not a think tank where we discuss these things intelligently and rationally, in full view of the facts, which is what a think tank does. It may have been once, but not now. And it certainly isn't a place where out-of-step views find welcome or purchase, and the drubbing about the ears is the treatment one may now not only expect, but such treatment is all but guaranteed.

Over the last several years, there has been a schism between the far-left and the center-left, and while I fall between these two myself, one thing is for certain. There has been a general antipathy for many people deemed not pure liberal or progressive enough in some people's view to remain. In the past few years, DU has seen many people whose minds, ideas, and writing I greatly respected leave in disgust.

Whether this place has made any difference or not in the past is immaterial. It is an echo chamber NOW. Anyone who has had the temerity to question the intent and importance of Snowden or Greenwald in the past few weeks and has been the victim of the aforementioned boxing of the ears can attest to this. I suspect that they are more patient with such treatment than I, and I credit them greatly for not caving to the force of DU conventional wisdom in this matter, although I also suspect that much of that falls flat. Such is the nature of the acoustics within the echo chamber to make its denizens deaf to arguments which are not particularly pleasant upon their ears.

Now, before we get all off the deep end here and the pile on ensues, as I've clearly interrupted this self-congratulatory thread and am, thus, interloping in an unwelcome fashion, allow me to at least state that I WISH this place was the think tank you speak of which I remember from back in the day when I first joined. I really do.

However, it is not, at least from where I stand.

[Number23]

111. Fantastic post. I agree with every word. Thank you.

DU is now not the DU you describe in the first line. It is not a think tank where we discuss these things intelligently and rationally, in full view of the facts, which is what a think tank does. It may have been once, but not now. And it certainly isn't a place where out-of-step views find welcome or purchase, and the drubbing about the ears is the treatment one may now not only expect, but such treatment is all but guaranteed.

Over the last several years, there has been a schism between the far-left and the center-left, and while I fall between these two myself, one thing is for certain. There has been a general antipathy for many people deemed not pure liberal or progressive enough in some people's view to remain. In the past few years, DU has seen many people whose minds, ideas, and writing I greatly respected leave in disgust.

And as I said upthread, it was no accident that the place turned into an echo chamber. As you mentioned, so many have left and so many that remain now are so shrill and uninformed. The number of people here who publicly hump their ignore lists, seemingly PROUD of the fact that they can only see the handful that agree with their every word, really sums up the quality of posters that still come here.

I've clearly interrupted this self-congratulatory thread and am, thus, interloping in an unwelcome fashion

It is self-congratulatory thread and I have no idea why people think that it's so important to pretend that DU is so critical to politics. But as you can see through the thread, you weren't the only person to note the odd self-congratulatory tone of this OP and refer to it.

[Summer Hathaway]

112. That was such an orgasmically good piece of writing

I had to light-up after reading it.



On.The.Money. With every word.

[Cha]

114. I remember those days, ElboRuum, of which you

speak.

I like your style, ER.. and I'm hoping there will soon be a time when you feel like participating on DU, again.

[CakeGrrl]

115. Thanks. Excellent assessment. -nt

[Bobbie Jo]

122. Perfect summation.

Thank you for this post.

[IdaBriggs]

110. In 2004 New Hampshire was recounted because of This Site.

Also major things happening for premature babies and children with neuromuscular issues because of this site. I share what I learn here.

It is a good site, especially with Meta gone.

[October]

116. There are just more trolls - proving there is some power here

There is much more in-fighting, meaningless snarky posts, sarcasm, eye rolls, condescension(!), ego, and general rudeness than there was back in the day, but one can sift through all the muck to find engaging discourse and
informative posts.

For me, it's not quite the escape it once was, but DU is ever-vital.

[Hubert Flottz]

118. I have never doubted that DU matters.

It's been my shelter from the storm.

A place where I could always go, in a land of political quicksand, to find some solid grounding.

[dembotoz]

119. du matter to me--don't give a shit about what anyone else thinks

its where I go to find stuff out
its where I go to discover that I am not crazy(live in a very red area....)
its where I go to recharge my crazy liberal batteries so I can fight another day

[LWolf]

121. To a point.

There has always been tension between the "left-wing" message board DU once claimed to be, and the site's partisan identity. There had to be; the Democratic Party isn't "left-wing."

There has always been partisan censorship.

In moving to DU3, the "left-wing" claim was dropped for "liberal," and in '08 the site became less "underground" and more above-board. It seemed to me that the climate and purpose changed from "think tank" to supporting and defending a Democratic administration, regardless of issues.

The conflict between issues and partisan soldiering is more aggressive and more intense, in my view.

I think making every discussion a partisan discussion, rather than an issues discussion, lessens the impact of those ripples.

I'm a Democrat. I'm not a partisan. I know that makes me "the enemy" to many on DU, but I simply can't put party first. Issues will always come first, and the party is only important in its work on those issues. For me.

I'd love to see in-depth discussions, not about elections, campaigns, what some talking head on the teevee or radio said, or whether any particular Democrat is a demon or saint, but about ISSUES, and how to move them.