This may not be a popular idea, but we didn't fight for your freedom.

[upaloopa]

Every Memorial Day and Fourth of July I get an email by our class news letter guy. We graduated high school in 1964 so just about the whole class of an all boys Catholic school was in the military. The email is sent to everyone of our class mates that is still alive.

He lists everyone who was in the service and the branch of service. Just about all of us served in the Vietnam war in some capacity.

Then he gives this long rant about how we are free because of the service of the vets. It may be true that we haven't been attacked since Peril Harbor because we have a strong military and we were a part of it, but none of us fought in a war to protect our freedoms.

We fought to protect the war profiteers. President Eisenhower warned us about the military industrial complex but we never took what he said to heart.

The Korean, Vietnam, Granada, Kosovo, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Libya and maybe Syria wars were never about our freedoms. They were about maintaining or over throwing some political regime for the growing of the wealth of the 1%.

Those of us who served were pawns and the pawns are usually kids of the lower economic classes.

So go ahead and say we fought for your freedom if that makes you feel good, but that meme will never get us to the truth and will never prevent the next mass "hair on fire" run up to war that some Cheney type individual will present to you in the future,

[Wounded Bear]

1. Unfortunately, true....

[lsewpershad]

68. +1

[think]

2. K&R "War is a racket"

The Iraq war was a shining example.

And even now the war on terror creates massive profits for The Carlyle Group via Booz Allen. One just needs to follow the money...

It may not be the same kind of war. But in many ways the war on terror is much more ambiguous and nefarious.

[fjlovato]

7. Sad but true

War has always been a racket and the latest "wars" prove it beyond a doubt. Profit is the goal and lies are the means of making said profits.

[think]

16. Yep. There is always a case for self defense but most of our wars don't qualify...

And the profits are certainly garnered through lies & deception.

WMDs

They hate our freedom

We will, in fact, be greeted as liberators

The war will pay for itself

[hunter]

39. The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq did "pay for themselves..."

Very well, in fact, for the oligarchs.

[think]

41. Doh!

[hunter]

65. The celebration kicked off early in our community last night...

... including a few explosions large enough to set off car alarms.

I'm not looking forward to tonight's celebration.

Ah well, when I was young and wild I liked fireworks too.

[merrily]

102. Yep. Paid for themselves, if you don't count taxpayers.

[99Forever]

3. K&R

[Arctic Dave]

4. War is a Racket.

Always has been.

[Arkansas Granny]

5. K&R

[Smarmie Doofus]

6. Well put: "for the growing of the wealth of the 1%."

If you're going to shorthand it.... that pretty much gets to the gist.

You're HS sounds like my HS. They we're peddling that bullshit in '72 also but it was starting to wear thin.

[Martin Eden]

8. I wish I could rec this more than once!

I'm sure it's comforting and reassuring for soldiers to believe they fought and their friends died for a noble cause, but I'm even more certain that embracing that colossal falsehood will enable the next Dick Cheney to sacrific more young Americans on the altar of his lust for wealth and power.

Thank you so much for an essential post that needs to be heard on this day of all days

[pasto76]

12. au contrair

this rhetoric isnt for troops. it is for your average dumbshit american who wants to feel like a tough guy. Go look on your facebook friend today and see how many comments about "freedom isnt free" bullshit. Yeah, it isnt free, and fact is 99% of you still owe payment.

unless you are a certified and clinical moron, we all know that any president can send all of us anywhere, for any reason. Soldiers like me hope that it will be worth something. I also hope that someday the rest of the country will wake up.

[Martin Eden]

64. au contrair 2

I've been debating in the "Probably the best 2nd Amendment speech ever" thread in which an Iraq war veteran claimed he was fighting for our Constitutional rights overseas, only to find his "right" had been taken away by the SAFE gun law in New York. Additionally, as I recall (don't have the source handy) a higher percentage of troops in Iraq (higher than the general public) believed the lies and even thought Saddam had a hand in 9-11.

Finally, I never implied the rhetoric wasn't meant for the public at large to gain support for the war. In a different forum I recently posted this:

The theme of "How we go to war" reminded me of this interview of Herman Goering during the Nuremburg war crimes:

Göring: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.

Interviewer: There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.

Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.

I understand better than the "average dumbshit American" how our nation is thrust into these wars, and I also understand that some soldiers know this while others prefer to believe otherwise (like the classmates in the OP of this thread).

[merrily]

75. Which rhetoric is for dumbshit Americans who want to feel like tough guys?

[4Q2u2]

152. The Real 1%

Only 1% of the populace had any skin in the latest Hot game of Death. I told a buddy of mine yesterday that I could not get away from the 4th of July Parade fast enough. He asked why? I told him that it was fake Patriotism, that when it was time to put your **** on the choppping block most Americans waved goodbye and told us go get them.
I did not fight for the President or that "Protectng our Freedoms" crap. As you know, I signed on the dotted line and swore to protect my battle buddy.

[marble falls]

9. Something very few vets come to terms with easily once we come home.

[The Wizard]

25. Many vets see themselves

as unrecognized war heroes who are victims of the liberal media elites. Plain and simple, we were / are tools in the military industrial media complex that has weakened this country by taking its treasure and sending it to Cayman Islands accounts where it can more easily be used to subjugate the American working class.
They have mastered Machiavellian concepts and have a propaganda operation that would make Goebbels green with envy and embarrass the old Soviet Pravda.

[Enthusiast]

48. Pure wizardry!

"They" have certainly mastered the Machiavellian concepts. Turn on any TV channel and the propaganda is right in your face.

[valerief]

10. Hey, don't spoil the brainwashing! nt

[Peacetrain]

11. Every 4th and Memorial Day.. I honor those who serve.. especially

those who served via the draft.. That was not something they volunteered for.. but something they were required to do..even against their will .. I am from that Vietnam generation.. and of all the Vets.. I honor the Korean, Vietnam vets.. they had no say so in whether they wanted to go or not.. so maybe you can skip the things that bother you most.. I absolutely understand your position..and take it for what it is worth.. I honor those who went to Canada.. and especially those who stood up and fought the hard battle right here in the United States.. All of you need to be honored not only for your service, which was real.. but sweet Jesus.. they and you were only 18.. and so much asked of them and you.. I have never been able to explain it to anyone who did not live through it.. but pawns you were.. whether serving or marching on DC.. 50.000 plus gone.. so young..

[marble falls]

31. Honor our service, but don't accept uncritically what we served for.

[Hoyt]

56. Very well put.

[premium]

66. +1000.

[brush]

141. Here, here!

[pitbullgirl1965]

145. +1 n/t

[JackN415]

13. What's the point of freedom without $? We fought those wars for our economic security

[upaloopa]

15. I guess people need reasons to justify war. Yours is a new one to me. I assume you are not being

sarcastic. I wonder though if you ever take into account the suffering and deaths of the millions of men, women and children that that economic security costs, if given what you say is true. And do you ever consider that those dead never have economic security?

[JackN415]

23. 1- sarcastic or not depending on your interpretation. 2- where did I say that this...

is morally justified?

I state it (semi-serious) as just a historical interpretation. But most human wars, or for that matter, primate wars that we know of including chimps, have significant economic consequences: gaining territories, bounties/goodies, enslaved labors, trade advantages, market shares, and even in more primitive times,.. DNA-motivated cause like reproductive advantages by gaining child-bearing women (think of Gengis Khan DNA prevalence, or warrior genes in Amazon Indians).

It's in the gene of the species. But it's also in the gene of species that humans are capable of empathy and altruism with a learning capability to generalize and extend the objects of empathy beyond the home clan kinship, race, country to the ever broader circle encompassing all humanity, which enables you to think of the millions who died.

It wasn't always so. Even as recent as mid 20th century, the famous Gen. Westmoreland stated that Asians didn't care much about life, so.. what does it matter that we napalmed all the sub-human gooks?

[tblue]

121. Then clearly it's not about "freedom,"

at least not for the 99.999999%. It's more like freedom for the powerful to pillage unfettered. YAAY!!! USA! USA! USA!

[Posteritatis]

114. Not to defend it in the slightest, but his is one of the oldest justifications for war there is.

Cloaked as they may be in any number of other causes, the huge huge majority of wars were fought, to one extent or another, over wealth.

You can push that to silly extents and do the economic-determinism take on the whole concept, which oversimplifies it a lot, but for somewhere between 'many' and 'most' wars in the last century or so? I'd be willing to buy that the economic angle behind them was somewhere between significant and the primary point.

[Lex]

19. For rich folk's economic security.

The rest of us, not so much.

[JackN415]

24. Yes, we did. The trickled down stuffs in their pants. Don't you know?

[JackRiddler]

58. No. This is one of the most important myths...

by which imperialism is justified to the metropolitan population. We have to kill them, hold them down, so that we can eat so well. Never mind that it's barbaric, it's also untrue, or at any rate by no means clear.

Show your calculation of the costs.

I say pulverizing half of all federal revenues on the empire is a net loss to the 90% of the population.

I say the surveillance state and the police state and all those costs, all of which are greater due to imperialism, are a net loss.

I say an economy geared to war is a net loss and a huge distortion of what the economy should and could be.

A foreign policy that creates enemies around the world against which the MIC must "defend" is a net loss.

Clearly, the citizen casualties are a net loss - of course, at a ratio of 1 citizen to 20-50 foreigners, but a loss nevertheless given that it's meaningless.

[JackN415]

74. It's best to leave to historians like Gibbon, Durant, or...

even modern day people like Francis Fukuyama.

But things can be very complicated. For example, what benefit has the Anglo-American empire for 3 centuries brought to the people of those countries?

Let's say the US dominance since post WWII (both economic and geo-political) has made the dollar the world reserve currency that give US citizens advantageous purchasing power and low interest rates, the way that citizens of PIGS can't (Portugal, Italy, Greek, Spain).

Well, stuffs for historians to ponder.

[socialist_n_TN]

27. THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Wars are NOT fought for the economic security of the populace at large. They are fought for the economic security of the ruling class of capitalism. If the working class also benefits, it's just an accident.

[HumansAndResources]

125. American Workers Used to get a Cut of the Spoils ...

... but that was before the Koch Brothers created an organization called the "Democratic Leadership Conference" - DLC - and appointed then Governor Clinton of AK as its first director. This organization took over the 'workers' party, aided by the Supreme Court's decisions on campaign donations being 'speech' - and we now have two Republican parties, which pretend to be different by highlighting "wedge" issues that change nothing of the overall scheme.

The old unions were corrupt, but they delivered the goods - high wages, paid-vacations, pensions after 20 years or so of daytime-slavery to a corporate-machine; it was a lot better *For Americans* than what we have now, though the mass-murder overseas was consistent no matter which party was in power.

[rdharma]

28. Do you have a mouse in you pocket?

What do you mean "OUR" economic security?

Unless you are a fat cat in the defense industry or in a position to exploit some country's natural resources for your own profits, I don't think you mean "OUR" economic security!

[JackN415]

35. our=the USA. How to divide the spoil between the ruling elite and the dead soldiers..

is an internal matter.

[rdharma]

37. "Trickle Down", eh?

Now where have I heard that before?

[JackN415]

40. You can always negotiate for a better piece real estate on a memorial wall for your name

[gtar100]

32. There are other means to economic security. War is about the worst choice.

Consider all the suffering and try not to gloss over the implications of that word... think bullets in children, bombs blowing up wives, girlfriends, mothers, brothers, sisters, fathers, sons, etc., etc., suddenly having to leave your home on a moments notice with only the clothes on your back and not knowing if you'll ever be able to return, waking up in a hospital and having to come to terms with living the rest of your life without your legs... or maybe just your eyesight. I'm not even scratching the surface.

Is this all worth economic security when we can do better with building community relationships, good will, and partnerships?

I sure hope what you said was sarcasm. Unfortunately there are people who really do believe what you said because they do not consider the consequences out of selfishness and cowardice.

[JackN415]

36. please see this:http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3167014

[WilliamPitt]

33. Holy shit.

OK. Wow.

Just fucking wow.

[burnodo]

44. Nice admission

I don't think any US Government official line would admit that

[Maedhros]

104. So we fought wars for economic security.

How many millions of innocent men, women and children - CHILDREN! - had to die so you could enjoy a middle class existence? I suggest we could all do with a few less smart phones, SUVs and designer labels if the trade-off is less suffering for millions.

[Arugula Latte]

135. All the money down the drain for wars and "defense" contractors

would have gone so much further had it been spent on education, research, infrastructure, healthcare, housing, etc. etc. etc.

[sibelian]

136. In other words -

STEALING.

[JackN415]

150. armed robbery

[Sancho]

14. You said all...

[zeemike]

17. Thanks for saying it.

It is time to put that false statement to rest.

[The Wizard]

18. I say again

Not one American was harmed by a Viet Cong climbing in their bedroom window in the middle of the night, or any other time for that matter.
We did a great job protecting America from Viet Cong attacks and invasion. They were loading up the rowboats when we stopped them in their tracks.

[JackN415]

30. Well, if not the Vietcong, then the next domino like Malaysians... then

one after another, all the way to the British isle, the Caribbean, Central/South America, and Canada. Soon, we Americans would be the sole blue isle in a sea of red commies...

[SkyIsGrey]

42. Logic is not your forte: slippery-slope

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

"You said that if we allow A to happen, then Z will eventually happen too, therefore A should not happen.

The problem with this reasoning is that it avoids engaging with the issue at hand, and instead shifts attention to extreme hypotheticals. Because no proof is presented to show that such extreme hypotheticals will in fact occur, this fallacy has the form of an appeal to emotion fallacy by leveraging fear. In effect the argument at hand is unfairly tainted by unsubstantiated conjecture."

[JackN415]

46. History is not your forte. When were you born? google "Domino theory" Vietnam war.

[SkyIsGrey]

55. I know of it.

Though you just again provided another example of a slippery slope fallacy: Just because A (COMMUNISM!) happens that atomically leads to Z (COMMUNISM everywhere!) happening.

The "domino theory" was also cold war propaganda.

[JackN415]

71. Parody and satire are not your forte. Ever read things like the Onion?

[SkyIsGrey]

83. More like Poe's law.

n.t.

[brush]

142. Think he just forgot the sarcasm tag. nt

[bvar22]

86. Are you aware that we LOST the War in Vietnam?

So where are all those commie dominoes that fell?

[JackN415]

100. We did????? when? :D ... my post was a satire of the unbelievably stupid domino theory

See this satire as well:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3168253

[JimboBillyBubbaBob]

146. Dominoe's............

They're on every corner and they deliver, especially when funding the fight against a woman's choice.

[bvar22]

109. "Parody and satire are not your forte."

Clearly, it is not your forte either.

[JackN415]

115. and like humor and beauty... it's a matter of taste

[Brewinblue]

82. Don't forget

the lost city of Atlantis. It too would become red, and enslave all of the oceanic wildlife in order to attack and cripple our Navy. And don't get me started on what would happen to the Moon and Mars.

[JackN415]

90. You can't escape the fate that the sun will be a Red giant and swallow the whole earth eventually

[truebluegreen]

106. Bwaahahahahaha!

Mars is ALREADY red! The commies are there ahead of us!

[upaloopa]

96. Vietnam is communist what have we lost?

We fought ten years and we ended up where we started.
You repeat that same old tired shit that we troops were spoon fed 30 some years ago.
It's hard for me to believe there are still suckers that buy into that shit

[truebluegreen]

107. Psst: I don't think he is being serious

although I confess some earlier posts confused me...

[Curmudgeoness]

20. This is too true, however,

I believe that the individuals who are serving do it because of the misguided illusion of fighting for freedom. It isn't the reality, but I think that they have bought into this meme...at least until they actually see what is happening. Most vets who I know are quite disillusioned, and that is because they did have their hearts in the right place. Too bad that our overlords don't.

[ReRe]

21. That's right...

K&R

... the war mongering profiteers or their totally brainwashed underlings use those patriotic sounding words, and thereby use the lives of innocent brave soldiers. War is a racket, plain and simple. Hasn't anything to do with all those pretty platitudes they like to use while sending our sons off to war or while our sons are coming home in body bags.

"Those who can make you believe absurditieis can make you commit attrocities."~~ Voltaire, 1694-1778

[Enthusiast]

54. PLUS ONE!

Great post, ReRe!

I love the quote. I have never seen it.

[ReRe]

61. Thanks, Enthusiast...

History tells a story.

[Vietnameravet]

22. I served and

most of those I served with knew Vietnam was a waste..one of many..fortunately for me I saved a few lives in the Philippine Islands. My father was a combat wounded vet of WW2..but I cannot help think of all those lives taken and money wasted in so many wars...what the hell for?? So some flag waving hypocrite can wave the flag and cheer everyone on as they avoid the war entirely while dumping on those that object to the stupidity and waste?

[JackN415]

43. WW2 is truly a moral war and those who served should be very proud

[7962]

118. I think if you look at the difference between N and S Korea

you could also say the Korean war was noble. We, along with the other allies, saved the south from becoming what the north is today. A starving dark hellhole of nothingness. There is no comparison between OUR thieving politicians and the North Koreans!

[HardTimes99]

108. We've disagreed on Snowden before today, but I wanted to let you know that you and your generation

may well have helped stave off nuclear war by your sacrifices in southeast Asia.

This is a bit of a convoluted argument, so please bear with me. Daniel Ellsberg has argued elsewhere that Vietnam\Cambodia were a necessary evil for the global superpowers to have a war in an era where nuclear war would have meant the destruction of human civilization on the planet. In other words, the only place where combat could happen in the nuclear age was on the periphery of empire using conventional arms, whether that be Vietnam or Latin America.

It is so sad that so many soldiers and civilians on all sides had to sacrifice so much, in order that the great powers could have their wars while not having the ultimate war. But if Ellsberg is correct, the conflict in which you and your generation struggled so valiantly may have helped preserve mankind for a future that, while somewhat doubtful, is certainly better than death by nuclear war and radiation poisoning.

So, though our disagreements may be deep and at times fervent, please accept this small gesture of gratitude. Your sacrifices may not have been entirely in vain, if the human race is something worth preserving.

[Octafish]

26. Thank you, upaloopa.

For sharing, your service, and the Truth.

[socialist_n_TN]

29. Thanks for the truth on a jingoistic holiday...

nm

[Zen Democrat]

34. Actually it was the Vietnamese who were fighting for their freedom.

[JackN415]

50. Yes but misguided. It was a civil war and we had better not got involved, the way we

are not getting involved in Egypt right now. Some countries choose their direction, right or wrong for their best interest, or for our best interest, we now learned our lesson to stay out of it.

Vietnam war did something to the US: democratization on the decision of war.

[Enthusiast]

59. Factual.

But that meme didn't fit the official truth of the day -the domino theory.

[kestrel91316]

38. My dad, who served in the USAF for 23 years, probably felt this way.

He served in Vietnam for a year but NEVER was a rah rah rah, USA! USA! USA! type. He expressed mild, quiet disgust with the idea of war after he returned. He didn't like how politicians tried to micromanage the war effort, thinking they should just state the goals and then just let the military do its job - I don't think he could wrap his mind around how it was never about the "goals", but was always about making the 1% richer.

One of my gentleman friends served 6 years in the USAF, including a tour in the First Gulf War, where he was a forward recon/sniper/smart bomb guidance guy. He also served in Bosnia. He has nothing good to say about our wars and jingoistic militarism.

The vast majority of people who cheer about our wars have never served in battle. Another friend who I have known for 25 years is a RW fundie who just LOVES the troops and cheers on all manner of military and police activity. He has never served, nor has anyone in his family.

[Enthusiast]

60. Those that cheer the wars are invariably chickenhawks. nt

[premium]

45. You and I kinda got into this yesterday

and you're correct, we didn't fight for our freedom over there, we fought to stay alive, and we fought for each other during our tour, however, I will never apologize, nor will I ever feel ashamed for my service in Vietnam, I served with honor and dignity and I will honor those that served in all our wars, however mis-guided those wars were/are.







I still remember my one and only visit to the wall, found the names of a couple of buddies of mine who were in my platoon, cried like a baby, never been back, brings up too many painful memories.

[Enthusiast]

62. Exactly...........nt

[Hoyt]

63. Good post.

[Skittles]

72. lovely response

thank you premium

[upaloopa]

99. I also found names of my friends on the Wall.

I like to call them friends because we planned to stay in contact when we got home. That didn't happen. I often wonder what their life would have been like had they lived.
I can't accept that their deaths served any other purpose than to help enrich a class of people they could never have known.
I also can't accept words like honor and glory in relation to wars. Those are words for the folks back home who see war as some sporting event.

[premium]

101. I never said anything about glory,

there's nothing glorious about war, and the honor I speak of is my personal honor, not the honor of fighting a war.

[pitbullgirl1965]

151. Vietnam was different.

I've always had the most respect for the Vietnam vets.

[premium]

153. Thank you pitbullgirl1965. nt.

[mnhtnbb]

47. I don't want to hijack the thread--actually add to the idea--

that many of these wars were fought NOT for our freedom, but in support
of some other country's 'freedom'.

Personally, hubby served during the Vietnam war. He was Berry planned--
ended up joining the AF to avoid being drafted--and spent his time
at McClellan AFB in Sacramento as a psychiatrist. (He later worked for
many years in the VA Hospital system.)

What I really want to say, though, is how these wars affect the people in the
countries where they are being fought.

I have been going to a Vietnamese woman--the same woman--for almost 10 years
to have manicures/pedicures. She was a boat person. Her brother organized
the boat--they were caught and sent to jail. He was in jail for a year--she was
in jail for a month. As soon as her brother was released he organized another boat
and this one was successful in getting its occupants out of Vietnam.

If you are too young to know about the boat people, see this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_boat_people

She's an immigrant. She works 6 days/week doing nails. Both her American born sons have gone to college
here (youngest will graduate next year and the oldest one graduated several years ago).
She probably speaks the best English in the salon (all Vietnamese), but also speaks Chinese and Vietnamese.
She became an American citizen several years ago.

So this woman truly believes that the US Military fought for her freedom.

My husband, the US Military vet, would have gone to Canada if he hadn't been able to work out
a way to avoid going to Vietnam by serving in the AF.

[upaloopa]

105. I was walking in Ben Hoa in Feb 1968 after it was

practically destroyed during the Tet fighting.
There was this old woman standing in the doorway of a building that had been shelled pretty bad. I walked up to her to see if I could do anything for her.
She said to me in broken English why do Vietnamese have to die? See said Americans should die because we had cars and TV's and Vietnamese have nothing.
This really pissed me off. I said to her that this was her country why should we die for it.
30 some years later I think about that incident and see how both she and I were victims of someone else's plan.

[mnhtnbb]

110. And 45 years later you probably wouldn't recognize Vietnam.

A lot of people were victims in that war. On both sides. Too much death and
destruction. For what? Cheaper cars and TV's (and now clothing) for the U.S.?

[upaloopa]

130. I should have said 45 years later, I keep losing track of time the older I get. One of the things

that always baffles me is I can remember days and things that happened in Vietnam with crystal clarity but other days and things just after that time I have no recollection of.

I can only picture Vietnam the way I saw it. I'm sure It doesn't look the same. I would like to see it again. I know a guy who was three when he and his family were boat people. I asked him why they came and he said for better economic opportunities. It seemed to be not so true to me because if the war hadn't taken place they never would have went looking for better economic opportunities here.

[Rain Mcloud]

49. It is a simple concept

The Government buys guns and ships and tanks and planes and they wear out.
So they must buy more but they still have these old ones which are not effective anymore.
They need a cost effective means to destroy the worn out equipment.
Exhumation of countless battle sites showed that soldiers died when their armaments malfunctioned.
This made the ironmongers very happy and wealthy indeed and in a political system where one hand washes the other,you have a very toxic system.

So the politicians volunteer our young people to put their lives on the line in the name of god and country.
These young people go and with the best of intentions give it all they have to give.
This is an admirable,selfless and honorable trait.

The game is rigged but to those who went and put themselves in harms way,we owe them a debt of gratitude.
Thank You all for your service.
Let there be war no more.

[treestar]

51. It is a lot more complex than that

the MIC may encourage war but they don't always get their way and they are not the only factor.

[12AngryBorneoWildmen]

52. I think this applies to the US Civil War, too.

[Civilization2]

53. The war for The Carlyle Group, Booz Allen, et al

War is for profits.

[rrneck]

57. Well said. nt

[L0oniX]

67. Military men are just dumb stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy. - Henry Kissinger

[Arugula Latte]

69. I agree completely.

Even some of my liberal Facebook friends post stuff like "Thank Veterans for your freedom on this 4th of July!" ... World War II vets -- okay, yes, I can see that, but I just get angry thinking at all the money squandered on the subsequent wars that were waged to enrich corporations at the expense of public education, healthcare, infrastructure and the like. We could have been a great country but we blew it on the military-industrial complex. As for "freedom," I wonder what the families of the hundreds of thousands of innocents we've needlessly slaughtered and maimed think about that.

The vets who were drafted and suffered greatly in these wars were treated very unfairly. As for the people who have signed up to be cannon fodder in the past few decades, I wish they would stop feeding the beast. I know some of them signed up because of dire economic circumstances (see military-industrial complex). But the attitude that we're supposed to be grateful for every "hero" who joins the military -- frankly I won't participate in that. I wish they'd stop helping to perpetuate this sick, sick system.

[pitbullgirl1965]

143. Powerful post and comments

As for "freedom," I wonder what the families of the hundreds of thousands of innocents we've needlessly slaughtered and maimed think about that.

As for the people who have signed up to be cannon fodder in the past few decades, I wish they would stop feeding the beast. I know some of them signed up because of dire economic circumstances (see military-industrial complex). But the attitude that we're supposed to be grateful for every "hero" who joins the military -- frankly I won't participate in that. I wish they'd stop helping to perpetuate this sick, sick system

In two paragraphs, you've summed up why I felt so annoyed and uneasy when people fawn over the troops. May I add that I'm also tired of hearing about American lives lost in Iraq and Afganistian, but nary a word about the civilians of those countries.

Great post!

[East Coast Pirate]

70. I agreed with Kosovo.

Milosevic was a mass murderer who needed to be stopped.

[merrily]

73. Thank you for your insight and candor.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

76. There were 2,594,000 U.S. troops in Viet Nam from 65-73. You don't speak for all Vets.

http://www.veteranshour.com/vietnam_war_statistics.htm

You are entitled to your opinion. But it does not reflect the opinions of those who held contrary opinions at the time, as a great many of us did. It does not reflect the opinions of those who hold contrary opinions at the present.

[upaloopa]

129. It's not just my opinion, it is the truth.

Last edited Fri Jul 5, 2013, 07:16 AM - Edit history (1)

Hard to take I know, but there it is. Even saying it is my opinion is living in denial. If you look real hard you won't see a link from what we did in Vietnam to the freedoms enjoyed back home. It just isn't there.


We lost that war and there was no loss of freedom except for the freedoms lost because of the staggering 12% inflation brought on by all the paper money thrown at that war.

Say what you want and I figure you will because you can't accept the reality of it. But what we do here today isn't going to change the world so what does it really matter?

[BrainDrain]

139. Agreed upaloopa.....

Like alot of folks on this thread I am a vet too, and I got used just like most of us here, for some individual's or corporations intrest, not the countries.

Others had quoted Smedly Butler enough for the point to have been made. But the truth is, patriotism will always be exploited by those witha profit to make, and it's the poor schmucks who have to fight the wars that pay the price while they reap the profit.

I promise you this though, not my kids. Ever.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

156. You say "patriotism will always be exploited" How can that be if none of the 2.5 million Viet Nam

Vets "fought in a war to protect our freedoms"? Look at the OP. That's what was said (except for the 2.5 million part).

"none of us fought in a war to protect our freedoms"

Under that reasoning, Smedly Butler never had a patriotic bone in his body. Under that reasoning, from the beginning of his his military career, he never "fought in a war to protect our freedoms."

Under that reasoning, at no time did any of us fight "in a war to protect our freedoms."

"exploited"? One thing that I've learned throughout my life is to reject group-think. Since there were 2,594,000 of us in Viet Nam, I don't consider the status of Viet Nam vet as being all that special. Do you? Do you think that because someone says that they are a Viet Nam vet that we are supposed to all think alike? Count me out. I did my time.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

157. Since there were 2,594,000 of us in Viet Nam, I don't consider the status of one person as being a

Viet Nam vet as being all that special.

I am not going to accept group-think merely because one person says that they are a Viet Nam vet.

If you did not think that you were going to Viet Nam to stop communist aggression and protect our freedoms (even in the slightest), why did you go?

Were you a draftee? There were a great many men (often called boys at the time), who were sent draft notices at the time but did not go. If you truly did not believe in the slightest that you were being sent to Viet Nam to stop communist aggression and protect our freedoms, why didn't you have the courgage of your convictions? In my opinion, strapping on an ammo belt didn't mean that a person had more courage than those who received draft notices and courageously refused to go.

The number of Viet Nam vets that were created was in the millions. I am not going to engage in group-think -- and say that no one went to Viet Nam while believing that they were stopping commmunist agression and protecting our freedoms -- because someone says nearly 50 years later that they are a Viet Nam vet.

[upaloopa]

159. I was drafted and I been through all that shit

you posted hundreds of times. It doesn't change the fact that we were not fighting for our freedom. What I did or thought has no bearing on that All you need to do is open your eyes and use your critical thinking skills

[AnotherMcIntosh]

160. Your special claim as a Viet Nam vet and your irrational insults don't make what you say to be true.

You were drafted?

Excuse me, but so what? Others who received draft notices had the courage of their convictions and made other choices. You chose to do the safe thing, get on the bus, and go where they sent you.

Now you want to be known as a Viet Nam vet? A Viet Nam vet spokesman?

Somehow this reminds me of Sylvester Stallone and his act as Viet-Nam-vet-as-a-victim act. Of course, he was never in. And he got paid for his act.

[upaloopa]

161. Look, all I said was we didn't fight to protect our freedoms. You added all the extra shit around

that point so don't dump your need to prove something on me.

I'm sorry you think we were fighting communist aggression or something. My life has nothing to do with the fact that we were not fighting for our freedom. I could have never been born and that would still be true.

You have some need to attack me well go on do it, I don't give a shit, it still doesn't change a truth you can't live with.

[geckosfeet]

78. Agreed. I'd say WWII was the last war where our freedom was seriously threatened.

Now, our freedom is seriously threatened by those in power who wage wars ostensibly to protect our freedoms.

Thanks for your service and your insights. Glad you are here to tell us about it.

[dflprincess]

123. And during WWII there was some effort to go after the war profiteers

[div class = "excerpt"]
http://www.thenation.com/article/war-profiteering#axzz2Y8OBSl2T

During World War II Harry Truman referred to some forms of war profiteering as "treason."

When he heard rumors of such profiteering, Truman got into his Dodge and, during a Congressional recess, drove 30,000 miles paying unannounced visits to corporate offices and worksites. The Senate committee he chaired launched aggressive investigations into shady wartime business practices and found "waste, inefficiency, mismanagement and profiteering," according to Truman, who argued that such behavior was unpatriotic. Urged on by Truman and others in Congress, President Roosevelt supported broad increases in the corporate income tax, raised the excess-profits tax to 90 percent and charged the Office of War Mobilization with the task of eliminating illegal profits. Truman, who became a national hero for his fight against the profiteers, was tapped to be FDR's running mate in 1944.

[hedgehog]

79. My only problem with the phrase" Freedom isn't free" is that these people aren't included:

[MotherPetrie]

80. And that is essentially why I don't support the troops.

[KrazyinKS]

81. Absolutely-even during the Civil war, it was the poor man fighting the rich mans war

My husband and I used to disagree on that. In high school, in Bison KS, he was told it was about states rights. Some obscure speaking point they always use. I would tell him"no it was the poor man fighting the rich mans war, so the rich man could keep his free slave labor". To this day they use the terms "freedoms" and "states rights" and it still works. Amazing.

[Jessy169]

84. Rich people are always fucking over the poor people -- always have, always will

A line from "Platoon".

BTW, that "liberty, justice and freedom for all" bullshit that you got taught in school -- you can shitcan that pack of lies too.

Humans in their current state of evolution are incapable of a society where we all just "get along" and where everybody shares in the wealth. Inequality, dominance and greed are built into human nature and into human civilization. That's the way it is.

If we want a more perfect human civilization, then we'll need to evolve. That evolution will not be without pain, most likely -- but I hope I'm wrong.

[merrily]

97. Yep. If poor people let them.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

85. We haven't had a Pearl Harbor because countries don't think like that anymore....

The idea of devoting a huge amount of resources to building a massive war machine to wage a war of aggression is obsolete.

[merrily]

87. Tell that to Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, et al.

Also to the Pentagon, all our military contractors and all the nations to which we sell arms. planes, etc.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

93. You just did.

[merrily]

95. Actually, I didn't.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

98. Didn't you hear? They're monitoring us right now.

Wave to them.

[Jessy169]

89. M.A.D. obsoleted massive war between superpowers

With no more global-scale conflicts to blow off the steam, the pressure continues to build and build. Now instead of one big volcanic eruption of war, we have hundreds if not thousands of steaming vents where violence is erupting. Better than the "big one" no doubt, but still very dangerous -- some would argue significantly more dangerous than the times when we knew who are enemy was and we were all lined up with our weapons aimed at each other, daring each other to pull the trigger.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

91. What we have are frustrated people fed up with being told to know their place....

And leaders who have been exposed for what they are.

Face it, we are ALREADY doing an end run around the idiots sitting in their ivory towers.

[idwiyo]

88. K&R

[bvar22]

92. Absolutely, positively, Nailed It.

Thanks,
and a DURec!

[LibDemAlways]

94. Thanks for stating this plainly. Every time I attend a sporting event a

"hero" of the game, active or retired military, is introduced and the crowd is reminded that the individual fought or is fighting for our freedom. A standing ovation inevitably follows. Meantime, I'm thinking to myself, "No, that man or woman is in the service of corrupt war profiteers and politicians who don't give a rat's ass about him."

[mnhtnbb]

155. Exactly. We used to have season tickets to football games at UNC.

Butch Davis--the guy who was coach when all the $hit happened that has gotten
UNC into NCAA violation troubles--started having cadets from the ROTC programs
on campus OPEN THE DOORS from the locker room for the UNC team to enter
the tunnel to the field. WTF?!? Then, we'd have a flyover from Cherry Point!
Not just one game per season--but EVERY damn game! We had stealth bombers
go overhead, f-16's, you name it! UNFUCKINGBELIEVABLE!

Whatever happened to just having a football game on a Saturday afternoon?


And, of course, all us taxpayers were picking up the tab for the little display
of military hardware!

[graham4anything]

103. I think its funny, Eisenhower,giving advice on war??? LOL. All Eisenhower gave us was Nixon. nt.

Why didn't the democratic party vote for Adlai??? Eisnehower was Reagan1 and Bush family.

The 1950s were NOT a good time in America for the vast majority of today's democratic party.
Why in the world would one like Eisenhower???

[DonCoquixote]

111. Korea was an exception

Compare Seoul to Pyongyang, especially since originally, Pyongyang was the richer, greater city before the Kim monarchy got their hands on it.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

112. Eisenhower was concerned that the MIC costs would prevent building schools & hospitals.

Neoconservatives and Neoliberals are united in the effort to keep the MIC in business. As a result we get no new schools or hospitals unless they happen to be religious institutions. Both are crumbling along with everything else in the United States.

Eisenhower needs a special holiday to be established by Liberals so that Americans are made aware of his insight and warnings.

[HiPointDem]

113. kr

[indepat]

116. A government of, by, and for the corporations will tend to fight and scrape for every scrap

of corporate profit to be had, no matter where in the world, no matter the cost in lives, treasure, limbs, and brain-parts.

[intheflow]

117. We have been attacked since Pearl Harbor: 9/11/2001.

Our big and powerful army didn't stop that attack.

That one statement does not invalidate the rest of this excellent post, though. Hate that whole jingoistic bullshit that passes for patriotism. I'll bet the guy who sends out that letter never saw a day's service to his country.

[mike dub]

119. Thank you for your service, upaloopa

And although I did not serve in the armed forces, I've often come to the same conclusions you have.

Anytime I hear "our troops and soldiers Fight For Our Freedoms" on TV programs or in television commercials (I live in the media market near Fort Bragg and Camp Lejeune, North Carolina), I think of the same things you've said. And it's the MIC (and chickenhawks/profiteers like Cheeeney) for whom/by whom many of our recent wars were started.

I would never dare put in writing the words you've said, but I agree, and I hear ya.
Thanks
Mike

[TinkerTot55]

120. Please don't forget.....

... Panama.
Hundreds, thousands (?) killed, and near total news coverage blackout.
Chickenhawk Reagan seemed to enjoy attacking small, defenseless countries.

Bullies suck.

[Triana]

122. General Smedley Darlington Butler, 1933

"I spent thirty-three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle-man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."

-General Smedley Darlington Butler, 1933

[ElboRuum]

124. This may also not be popular, but we didn't ask you to.

In every war you mentioned, the people of this country more or less found themselves in conflict without ever having an honest to goodness say in the matter.

People of intelligence and reason and just a bit of skeptical cynicism realize the very truth you mentioned. As for me, I'm really sick and tired of being expected to genuflect to our propensity for militarism in the name of the MIC on every holiday where Old Glory is a part of the festivities.

There was a time where I thought that the flag of this country was a symbol that everyone in this country could embrace, but of late, I believe that its become solely the property of those who fought in these wars of profit, and that those of us who did not should feel lucky we can view it freely, without having to avert our eyes or prostrating ourselves in some way.

[upaloopa]

126. I am not one to tell you that you are lucky for anything. I was drafted in April 1966. My draft

notice said something like, Greetings from the President of the United States. Your friends and neighbors have selected you to represent them in the armed forces of the United States. I don't remember all the words exactly but that is pretty close.
Now if you read that it is pretty clear someone not only asked me to but insisted that I go.

What you say you feel about the flag is exactly what kids my age felt when I was growing up. I have empathy for what you are feeling.

[AnotherDreamWeaver]

127. K & R, from another Vietnam Vet.

I don't know why I avoided clicking on this link for so long...

I was once told Vietnam was about the rights to drill for oil in the Gulf of Tonkin. Did anyone ever drill there? (OK, I did a search, and found

China took territory for Oil in 2008:
http://www.stimson.org/spotlight/china-vietnam-and-the-rich-resources-of-the-gulf-of-tonkin/

And here is another link about oil in the Gulf of Tonkin"
http://community.middlebury.edu/~scs/scs-intro-t6.html

Guess it may be there...

[Coyotl]

128. The Ohio Company formed before the USA. Hooray USA, built on genocide!

The Revolutionary War was actually fought to overthrow the King's refusal to allow invasion of the Indian Nations in the Ohio Valley. More Revolutionary War officers are buried in Marietta Ohio than any other cemetery because they got the good land grants after the invasion. The first construct there was a fort with rifle slits to shoot the Indians. And so the genocidal march across the Indian Nations began. Nearly identical forts were still being built in Oregon a century later, again the first building in a newly occupied area, again featuring rifle slits to shoot the Indians.

[markpkessinger]

131. Thank you -- this so needed to be said!

And really, it's something only a veteran can say (at least with any credibility). Thank, you, thank you, thank you!

[donheld]

132. They fought for the freedom of Big Oil, Big Banks, Big Agra - Monsanto, etc. That is all.

It had NOTHING at all to do with average Americans.

[susanna]

133. Rec from me. n/t

[ngjtk]

134. How naive I was

I signed up after 9-11 for the Navy. It wasn't until my ship was guarding oil rigs off the coast of Iraq that I suspected anything... I was raised conservative, voted for Bush Twice (while enlisted). I knew all the popular history, hell I knew it all, I thought. It wasn't until Obama started going after guns that I was awoken by the 200 ton elephant in the room. Patriot act, NDAA, SOPA PIPA, CISPA, Federal Reserve, etc... Its like waking up to a god damn nightmare, every day. Since then I cannot stop reading, and figuring. I came to this site back in 03¿ and thought it was a hotbed of neurosis and anti Americans. Now you all sound logical and well read. Its absolutely correct that active duty guys have zero time to entertain politics. If I wasn't working a 14 hour day I was sleeping, drinking or doing anything distracting. I am in absolute awe of this thread and glad to finally see that we really aren't all that different. I hope more Americans are waking up, this crap has to end. Our family chose not to celebrate the fourth this year, and all of us are vets.

[upaloopa]

138. I'm honored you added your post to this thread. I saw a documentry on Netflix called "Carrier". It

Last edited Fri Jul 5, 2013, 10:50 AM - Edit history (1)

showed the Nimitz and the different opinions the Navy people had about the Iraq war. It showed the ship going to guard the oil wells in the Gulf.

[In_The_Wind]

144. Hello ~ ngjtk

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]
Thanks for joining DU.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

137. You fought to keep you and your buddies from dying. Pure and simple.

You didn't fight for freedom. You fought a war for survival.

The war, on the other hand, was to keep powered elite even more powerful. Sadly, you are completely correct.

I will never say the hollow "thank you for your service," because it sounds so fake when people say it to veterans. All I will say is deep down, I honor what you did and, when you did it, the intentions you had while doing it.

It must hurt veterans to know that the people that sent them to war wanted them to die, because, as Gordon Lightfoot said "See the soldier with his gun who must be dead to be admired." It must really hurt to know your life and the lives of your fighting buddies were pawns, as you say.

I have nothing but respect and honor for the fighting man. The generals can kiss my ass.

[brush]

140. Great post

You're absolutely right. We've been involved in wars, overthrows, occupations and coups in foreign countries CONTINUOUSLY since our overseas imperialism began with the U.S. Navy assisting in the overthrow of Hawaii's monarchy in 1893 at the behest of ex-pat American growers who wanted "paradise" and more acreage for their cash crops.

There hasn't been a year since that we haven't been inserting ourselves into the internal affairs of other countries for corporate profits while claiming it was for the furtherance of freedom and democracy, or in the case of Iraq, "we had to fight there so we wouldn't have to fight on our own shores" (the non-logically hubris of that is so overwhelmingly arrogant and insane it makes one wonder how Cheney and the Neo-Cons in the Bush administration got any of us to go along with it at all).

Yep! We've been a "bad actor" on the world stage for well over a century and some wonder why many don't like us.

Well it's certainly not the "they hate us because of our freedoms" meme that was bandied about during the height of the Iraq war/occupation.

[dotymed]

147. Thanks for the honesty.

Many vets (pawns) will crow on and on about how they "fought for our freedoms" which is not true.

Yes vets deserve some special treatment IMO because most of them bought into the national lie and are now scarred or worse, due to the chaos they endured.

I wish that active duty soldiers would recognize this and stand for the people and not the govt. who longs to put them in harms way.

[upaloopa]

149. I was just thinking, what do you think African Americans in Vietnam and LGBT people in Iraq and

Afghanistan felt when they were told they were fighting for their freedom?

What freedom? is what I think they felt. Probably they more than any of us got it.

[tavernier]

148. I agree with every word you said

but could I add a small caveat? If we fought only for our own freedom and well being, would we be the kind of nation that we and others would continue to look up to and consider 'the greatest country on earth'? ( and yes, that does still apply IMO )

No man is an island, and being also the most powerful nation on the planet, I believe we have some responsibility to the weak, the oppressed, the bullied people who cannot fight for themselves. That this has lately become an excuse for less noble motives is not the fault of our soldiers. They and their families remain heroes in my eyes, because their sacrifice is for all the right reasons in their hearts and minds. And that is what makes it a double sin for those who sent them there with profit as the bottom line.

[4Q2u2]

154. True, but it is not up to Us

As we VETS know. When you Enlist or are Drafted and you enter your obligation you wave certain Constitution Rights. Speaking out against leadership is one of them.
Military power use where and when is strictly up to the civilian leadership. In all those instances you listed, the American people failed their Military and their Civic Duty. They are obligated to see that THEIR Military is used right and proper not the other way around.
They in reality had the chance and did not fight for their freedoms, they thought is was our job when it is the American Publics job. The job of the Military is to kill the Enemy that is presented in front of us, to achieve a Victory that should be clearly defined by a Civilian Populace, not defined by the Military.


We VETS also know what it means to each other, no matter the generation, when we wish each other Happy 4th and Remember Memorial day. Happy 4th of July Brother.


"If you want to see how much your Country Loves you, go fight a War for it"

Source: ME.

[Stainless]

158. Thank You for saying it!

I also graduated HS in 1964 and I had friends who joined the military while we were still in school. They came back from Vietnam and advised me to avoid the draft and stay out of Vietnam if possible. I joined the Army Reserve in 1966 and my unit was never deployed. I considered myself to be a pawn of the ruling class elite at the time and I despise conservatives/republicans/tea-baggers to this day. The only reason I joined the military was because it was the law at the time. To me, fighting for peace is like fucking for chastity!