watching the authoritarian gatekeepers discredit themselves over this Morales incident..

[frylock]

has been totally worth the price of admission. thanks for laughs, and i mean that most sincerely.

[morningfog]

1. Classic. They aren't giving in either. It is priceless.

[Mojorabbit]

2. It is amazing to see. nt

[frylock]

5. they are going to the mat on this one..

no quarter.

[winter is coming]

122. Question is, why? Why is it so desperately important to them? n/t

[Whisp]

3. Respect!

[flamingdem]

9. +1 me tue

[HangOnKids]

11. You Tue?

Sorry to hear that, the tue can be pretty uncomfortable.

[BlueCaliDem]

14. +2 Exactly.

[Enrique]

4. boom!

[carolinayellowdog]

6. it seems like termites swarming

they can be quietly eating away at one' s house unnoticed, but when they start flying around in visible swarms people do notice them

[Summer Hathaway]

7. I guess we find our entertainment where we can get it.

For me, it's been watching people who used to say "If Obama ate a live kitteh on the White House lawn, you Obama supporters would find a way to justify it," now coming up with the most hilarious justifications for Snowden's actions.

So let me say it, just this once:

"If Edward Snowden made accusations against the NSA that he has not a scintilla of proof to support, and he then absconded to Hong Kong with stolen confidential documents and shared their contents with the Chinese, and then was found to have made statements about 'leakers should be shot in the balls', and how social security recipients are 'moochers', and kept insisting that HE wasn't the story but kept insinuating himself into the drama at every opportunity, and then wound up issuing self-serving statements about how he was being 'persecuted' for no good reason, you Snowden supporters would find a way to justify it."

[flamingdem]

10. I think it's okay if Obama ate a kitteh on the White House Lawn

as long as it was cooked!

Signed,
An authortarian obambat

[Summer Hathaway]

15. OMG!

Every time I wonder why I even bother posting here, I read a post like yours and remember that political sanity and a sense of humor, more often than not, go hand-in-hand.

Signed,
A Fellow Authoritarian Obamabot, who hopes the President doesn't get 'chopped' from the WH due to an inappropriate garnish of fresh basil and mint - which everyone knows doesn't enhance kitteh flambe.

[think]

24. ya got me

[BlueCaliDem]

19. Yes, but IOKIYATB. :-)

See, Snowden is a rightwing anti-government nutjob Paulite, and no other conclusion can be made by anyone with a modicum of common sense that those who continue to gulp in his lies, conform to his TeaBagger ideology.

Each and every day I read more and more about this charlatan, and it's as amusing as it is frustrating how easily he culls some on DU into believing everything he says; who are so willing to completely overlook each and every ugly detail of this man's personality and character without question while, on the other hand, use a fine-tooth comb to extract whatever negative info they can on that black man in the White House who happens to be a Democrat {which I believe is his most egregious crime to these people: being a Democrat} and the most progressive president since LBJ based not on his blackness, but on the progress he's already made despite unprecedented Rightwing obstructionism

[flamingdem]

25. +1 we'll be rockin' this 4th 'o July

with the potus with the mostus

[BlueCaliDem]

29. We sure will!

Everyday I wake up, I'm truly happy that Barack Obama is our prez, and Michelle is our First Lady. I couldn't be a prouder American - and I say this will all honesty.

[madokie]

63. With out a doubt

The man has had everything in the world thrown at him, including the proverbial kitchen sink and he stays above it all. Good man, great President if you ask me.

[BlueCaliDem]

115. That only tells me he's working hard for We the People, rather than We the Personhoods.

He's our general in America's neo-civil war that's been launched by We the Personhoods against We the People.

And since just about every media outlet {personhoods} is on the attack of this president, he's clearly not conforming to their will and is solidly on our side, not theirs. It's strange that not more people on this board, the anti-Obama crowd mostly, can't see past their ODS and see how hard he's fighting for us.

But I'm damn happy he's our president. Damn happy.

[flamingdem]

121. Well said BCD: He's our general in America's neo-civil war

Happy 4th!

[BlueCaliDem]

124. Thanks, flamingdem! A wonderful 4th to you and yours, too!

I'm making Indonesian satay {with marinated and skewered chicken and pork} with the Indonesian version of peanut sauce - a hit with friends and family.



Hubby, being Dutch, will just have his fries with the chicken satay and peanut sauce. I haven't taught him to eat rice yet - even after being together for 34 years (married 31 since last Sunday, June 30th).

[madokie]

134. Yes I'm damn happy for that too

It hurts to read some of the things I read that some have to say here. I think he is doing a good job overall, fully aware that he can't be everything to everyone. Some things I'd like to have seen done differently and at the same time I can understand why they weren't.
The last thing I'm going to do is turn my back on him as many here seem to have done under the guise of holding his feet to the fire bs

[Hekate]

72. I LOVE your graphic!

It pretty much says it all.

[BlueCaliDem]

114. Thanks, Hekate! It's sad that some can't understand the graphic in reference to the subject of my

post and instead sees monsters under their bed. How frightening their world must be.

[Berlum]

90. +1

Bush goes AWOL as Obama takes center stage

[ForeignandDomestic]

103. Picture is woth a thousand words......

You're right the Military Industrial Complex mission was accomplished!!

[BlueCaliDem]

32. But I know GeeGee and Snowden won't be. They were hoping for a Prez. Ron Paul.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

34. James Brady worked for Reagan. Look at the Brady Bill

David Brock slammed Anita Hill. Now he runs Media Matters.

Bill Maher supported Libertarianism and John McCain in 2000. Now he's solidly on our side.

People can have an epiphany.

[BlueCaliDem]

45. Snowden isn't of their ilk.

But I'm pretty sure now it's getting hot under his feet and he finds he has NO friends out there, that he's getting his epiphany, all right. BIG time.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

51. I don't know. I'm reserving judgement. I've heard so many conflicting statements about him

I just do not really trust anything said about him.

I support his action. His motives are his and his alone. I might not support his motives, but the action I find needed to be done.

Bradley Manning did the same thing and he's a hero. I may not agree politically with anything Snowden says, but domestic spying without warrants (or even that FISA court rubber stamp) is wrong.

[Hekate]

76. Bradley Manning will never see the light of day again

I say he took some bad advice along the way, and is paying a fearful price for it. Julian Assange is not paying the price, I notice. It's easy enough to call someone a hero when oneself is safe.

As for Snowden's motives -- I'm also still reserving judgment, but increasingly I am wondering just what kind of fool he is. He didn't plan out his exit very well; he seems to have little understanding of international relations (i.e. why no one wants to give him asylum now that the deeds are done); and he is doing a lot of damage to US diplomatic relations, when originally he said his ire was aimed at what he claimed was spying internal to the US.

[Mojorabbit]

153. It is true it seems poorly planned

but then who would have thought this country would go to the lengths it has to get him. I have never seen anything like this. Perhaps he thought he also would find sanctuary as Assange did. I have no idea.

[Th1onein]

148. SUCH VENOM!

I don't get it. This guy told you that your government was hoovering up all of your communications and you hate his guts.

And the administration? Damn, they didn't spend this much time and effort on OBL!

Makes you wonder, don't it?

[BlueCaliDem]

160. No. I write the truth and you only think it's VENOM.

And by the way, Big Gubmint isn't "hoovering up" all my communications. Corporations are and have been for YEARS. But SnowdenBots were a-okay with that just as long Big Corp did it. Or did you think your texts, phone calls, and e-mails weren't monitored by your ISP? Jeezus.

And how do you know that the Obama Administration didn't spend as much time and effort on OBL? Obama Derangement Syndrome much?

Yeah, it makes me wonder about this place and how deeply it's been infested with anti-Obamanites and RW trolls. It's a shadow of its former great self.

[BillyRibs]

57. I started out as a Regan Republican.

I Now see him for what he was, one of the worst Presidents in History! and the GOP? SCUM! So much for never changing stripes.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

87. Absolutism is a common trait among people. Epiphanies mean nothing if you were not a true

believer since conception to alot of people.

I am not a liberal, though I am a Democrat. I view myself more as logical. The left side just makes more sense to me on most issues. Sometimes, the right side does, even after logical, critical analysis. I do hold a couple of conservative views, but not many.

As a result, when I was in university, I was shunned by the College Democrats and most liberal groups due to a limitus test of ideological purity.

Oh well, I lose no sleep over it. I started out as an FDR Democrat and was told about the "internment camps." I've become what I call a fiscal socialist and a social libertarian (meaning I want my government out of my private life [drugs, porn, marriage, spying on me], regulating businesses, making the necessities of life government subsidized and making a living wage for everyone while supporting a progressive tax rate of the pre-1986 levels).

[BlueCaliDem]

113. It was just last election that Snowden donated, supported, and most likely voted for Ron Paul.

There was zero indication that he had an "epiphany" like you.

However, I'm pretty sure that the increasing problems he's started for himself internationally just might be what forces him to get it. But that wasn't the case before he decided to become this country's mega sell-out. He wanted to dance to the Libertarian music, and it's becoming high time for him to pay the Piper.

I'm sorry, but I'm not giving this loser and liar a millimeter. Then again, I'm a Democrat who has zero tolerance for Libertarian and other assorted TeaBaggers who hate Big Gubmint and The New Deal, and are actively working toward and wanting nothing more than to see both dead and the rise of Corporatism flourish.

[BillyRibs]

159. I don't Shiv a Git, About personal Opinion,

Yours or anyone else's About Snoden,I can get the same from Rushbo! I see his Actions (and That's what I'm In favor of) as a Necessity to counter the tyranny that has flourished in this country since 9-11. And to Hell with all the Apologist!

[galileoreloaded]

100. uhhhhhh....

[Tx4obama]

26. +100. Bravo! n/t

[dsc]

35. there is literally nothing Snowden could have done that would have justified our treatment of

Morales' plane, especially when you consider that he wasn't even on it.

[Tx4obama]

62. 'our treatment'? What did the USA do? Audio on the link below states pilots had fuel gauge problems

Audio on the link below shows that the Morales plane pilots requested to land as a precaution due to the fuel gauge

Here: http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2013/07/tale-re-routed-bolivian-presidents-plane-falling-apart/66838/

Control tower: Do you need any assistance?

Pilot: Not at this moment. We need to land because we cannot get a correct indication of the fuel indication so as a precaution we need to land.

[reusrename]

107. Nobody is really this stupid are they?

Airplanes need fuel in order to fly.

[dsc]

117. planes tend to run out of fuel when they are denied the ability to fly a direct route

If some country did this to Air Force One, it would be a cinder today.

[Tx4obama]

38. I just did a search and only one thread came up on DU for the word: Snowdenbot / Snowdenbots

Strange. I thought there would be a lot more than that

[Summer Hathaway]

42. I prefer the term

the Snow-jobbed - it works on so many levels.

[BlueCaliDem]

46. Heh . . .

[KittyWampus]

119. good one

[nadinbrzezinski]

118. My god, you even justify violations, gross violations mind you,

Of the Geneva Convention...of course you do...those are not for the big people.

[Summer Hathaway]

132. As per usual, Nadin

Your reply has absolutely nothing to do with anything I've said.

[nadinbrzezinski]

133. walls are nice

[Th1onein]

149. They're into their ad hominem attack stage now, nadine.

Not much sense trying to reason with them, at this point.

[nadinbrzezinski]

150. I know

Sad really

[Th1onein]

138. But we Snowden supporters are lucky that Snowden did none of those things.

He had proof of his allegations.
He did not share the contents of the documents with the Chinese. I am really tired of this lie.
He didn't insinuate himself into the drama. You, and people like you did, by insisting on smearing the messenger, instead of paying attention to the message.
He IS being persecuted, just like Manning, Drake, et al were.

[Summer Hathaway]

140. His initial allegation

was that anyone in his position could access any personal info on any citizen, including the president.

Where is the proof?

He shared information with the Chinese - not even he or Greenwald have disputed this. His supporters have hailed the act as Snowden's "wanting the world to know" what was going on at the NSA.

He has insinuated himself into the drama time and again, via interviews, pleas for asylum, etc.

He is not being persecuted - he made his own bed. If he doesn't like laying in it, he should have thought things through before acting.

[Th1onein]

147. LOL. Just because you say something over and over again doesn't make it true.

Show me where he and Greenwald are saying that they shared info with the Chinese.

And it is more the press that is riding this Snowden story rather than Snowden himself "inserting himself into the drama."

Oh, and he's not being persecuted? You've got to be kidding! LOL! They stopped a head of state's plane the other day looking for him!

Wahahahaha!

[Summer Hathaway]

155. Have you ever made the mistake

of playing "peek-a-boo" with the small child seated in front of you on a plane?

You quickly, and sadly, come to the realization that the child is willing to play this game for the entire four-hour flight, and will actually be amused by it - despite how repetitive it is - while you, on the other hand, are bored out of your mind after the first encounter.

I'm feeling that way now ...

[sabrina 1]

145. The only problem is, it is the documents you will have to try to defend, Snowden is merely another

messenger in what is becoming a long line of messengers, with more likely until the problems are fixed.

I know you can't focus on what has been revealed, by so many messengers now, although I do recall what 'heroes' they were when Bush was in the WH. The very same messengers that were being cheered back then have suddenly become persona non grata. It's hilarious to watch. Someone dug up a few comments from one of the most prominent defenders of the Surveillance State from 2006! It was embarrassing, well it should have been. I know how I would feel if that kind of proof of a total flip flop on an important issue was produced. But I don't tend to flip flop on Bush policies, I hated them when he was around and I still hate them.

But the OP is correct, it is fun to watch and extremely informative.

[Douglas Carpenter]

12. knr

[Comrade Grumpy]

13. Cognitive dissonance is a bitch.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

16. Quite entertaining. My favorite:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3164458

[frylock]

18. it all started with this one and has just gone off the rails since:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023155297

[dawg]

22. Yay! The Austrians grounded that damned plane!

No one grounded that plane! What, do you think Obama controls European countries or something?

It was a fuel gauge that is all. And then they searched the plane because .... FUEL GAUGE! See. Totally not a hostage. He smiled.

"Well then why did those countries apologize for not initially allowing access to their air space?"
(crickets)

[ConservativeDemocrat]

71. (crickets)

"Well then why did those countries apologize for not initially allowing access to their air space?"

Because thes screamed for an apology, and quite likely the diplomats of those countries thought maybe someone had done what they were accused of. What are the diplomats going to do, call the President of Ecuador Bolivia a liar?

Of course, now it turns out it was a fuel gauge problem, and the Ecuadorian Bolivian President is just an idiot.


- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[dawg]

73. Didn't even get the nationality right.

You just called a foreign head of state an "idiot" and you didn't even get his nationality right.

[Democracyinkind]

74. So much for reality-basedness....

I don't know what it is that ticks me off about people who claim reality as their prerogative. Oh wait, I do.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

77. Says the man who updated his post almost immediately himself...

Laying it on the line however, the Anti-American trash talkers' story is the only one falling apart.
You sure you want to hitch your cart to that bullshit train?

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[Democracyinkind]

78. Updating a post is anti-reality now too, hu?

So I guess this part must really piss you off

[ConservativeDemocrat]

83. No, but bashing someone for needing to make a correction is.

And I'm actually not pissed off. I'm relatively amused. The American people flat out don't agree with you. Hell, even *Putin* doesn't agree with you. So what do you think is going to happen from all your typing "Orwell" and "Hitler" and "Authotaaarian!!!!" in a website?

Nothing. Nothing will happen.

You will bloviate, and hyperventilate, and spend hours on your screeds demanding absolute Purity. And then, nothing. Snowden is getting his 15 minutes of fame, but at the end of the day, everyone knows that countries have intelligence services that spy on each other. Big fucking deal.

And there is absolutely nothing that will change that. You are like the Teabaggers screaming about "betrayal" over gay marriage. The best you can do is sabotage the Democratic Party to put even more Republicans in office, which will give the NSA more power, not less.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[Democracyinkind]

84. Again, your reality-basedness gets in the way....

1. I was mocking how your mistake contrasts to your claiming a prerogative on reality. You must admit that's hilarious.

2. You're basically just doing what you're accusing me of. You must admit that's hilarious.

3. You are responding to a poster who has neither bloviated nor hyperventilated, and certainly has never thrown around "Orwell", "Hitler" or "Authoritarian" in the manner that you suggest in your post.

As a general rule, it is best to answer individual posters on what they actually post as opposed to constructing a caricature of the positions that you perceive to be opposing and simply ascribe them to whomever you're responding to. Again, this makes your whole reality-schtick just that much more ridiculous.

[RandiFan1290]

98. lol

[frylock]

123. fuel gauge problem, eh?

I get that from time to time as well. it's usually remedied by adding fuel to my fuel tank.

[HooptieWagon]

142. Usually works for my fuel gauge problems.

Then again, my problems aren't due to inability to read a map.

[flamingdem]

28. If I have the energy I am going to dissect

some of Catherina's posts. They have "facts" that oddly only appear in her posts. Like the statement by Ambassador William Echo / Eacho that simply doesn't exist outside of her claims.

Why is it there? I believe I know why. There's not much story without a US rep stating words that can be quoted. Don't have them, make them up.

It's the same with the Guardian, like GeeGee is dictating to sway people, make them even more frenzied.

It's a lot of bs all around, but interesting to see the disinformation. You can tell by how it smells at this point. Plus, it's poorly written.

[frylock]

33. i eagerly await your reply!

yes yes, please do dissect all the disinformation. it's imperative that we get to the bottom of this.

[flamingdem]

36. I agree.

from diepresse

Alright she got this from a real article. It took a bit to find since this is the only one on the entire internet that refers to this incident:


Officially, the United States initially voiced not the embarrassing incident. But it is quite clear: The Americans were the driving force behind the panic action. It can also call the U.S. ambassador William S. Eacho Close, who entered the night in the middle of Vienna's outer office. He pointed in the right telephone strongly advised that Snowden located in the plane of the Bolivian president. The Austrian authorities may yet see once and then deliver Snowden, asked the U.S. diplomat and offered generously to submit the American arrest warrant for 30-year-olds, which the world for weeks with revelations about the National Security Agency (NSA) in respiratory keeps.

[temmer]

49. intriguing that this story only shows up in an Austrian newspaper

and here's Catherina's thread to it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3160893

Translated "die presse" excerpt:

It landed about 11 pm. Shortly after that, the Vienna foreign department received a phone call. The caller was the US embassador William Echo. "Die Presse" learned that he claimed with strong firmness that Edward Snowden was onboard, the whistleblower of the recent surveillance scandals. Eacho referred to a diplomatic note requesting Snowden's extradition.


This is specific information, no reason to assume it' not true. The ambassador was positive that Snowden was on the plane. The US has been duped. How embarassing.

[HangOnKids]

59. You agree with someone who is mocking you?

Ohhh boy this is fantastic! Thanks frylock!

[Bobbie Jo]

143. Yeah

This shit is right up your alley.

LOL...with a "thanks" even.

Class act.

[ucrdem]

47. Good catch.

Very perceptive.

[HangOnKids]

64. Please dissect Catherina's posts (if you have the energy)

Please do it. She NEVER makes things up she posts facts. But please take her on, I so want to read your dissection!

[JDPriestly]

67. If you are only reading English language news, then you will not find some of the "facts" that

Catherina is posting. I read English, French and German as well as a very limited amount of Spanish. I am getting a different view from the news sources in those languages than people reading only English news media are getting. But I am thinking that some of the "facts" are uncertain and perhaps intentionally confused.

I have read Der Standard and Die Presse, both Austrian newspapers as well as Le Monde, a French newspaper. Der Standard posted a terrific photo album of Morales in the Vienna airport. He seems quite happy. But that was toward the end of his stay in the airport. He was there over 12 hours, maybe as long as 15 hours, and if you have ever spent a night in an airport lounge, you may know that is not fun. The pictures made me think very highly of Morales. Jovial, friendly, open kind of guy. I think he would be the kind of guy who was perfectly capable of pulling off a prank.

[Tx4obama]

31. When that OP was posted Tuesday before midnight the news WAS reporting the plane had been grounded

Seems funny that some folks on that thread missed that point.

And the point of the OP was to imagine Snowden having internet withdrawal - most folks missed that point too.

[ucrdem]

43. You're all they've got left, Tx.

And they're not going to let anyone take that away from them.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

37. Wow, missed that one... Sick! Are we in Bizarro World? Here's where I started:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023159070


And this well-deserved response OP was amusing: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023163041

[nadinbrzezinski]

120. My fracking lord!!! If it wasn't comical

The willful ignorance that is.

Thanks, I think...ugly American on steroids there.

[idwiyo]

127. That's the absolute Best! Comedy Central! I had to .pdf print entire thread I case anything gets

deleted.

[dawg]

20. Well, it did come with a nice driving map of Moscow.

[MADem]

44. Another one who proudly didn't read the article! nt

[dawg]

48. Um ... that isn't a flight plan.

The article doesn't claim that it is, but the OP does.

[MADem]

50. OK, since you claim you read the article, you tell me just what is represented there--in detail. nt

[dawg]

52. Distance between the airports where the plane took off and where Snowden supposedly is being held.

But the OP called it the flight plan - in an epic display of map-illiteracy.

[MADem]

54. EXACTLY.

Now, since you read the article, tell me--is the flight plan included in the article? Is there a link to a visual representation of the path of Evo's aircraft?

[dawg]

53. Oh yeah, who died and made you the article police anyway?

[MADem]

56. So you haven't read the article, either...?

[dawg]

58. I'm the same guy you just posted "EXACTLY" to.

I read the article. It was vague and misleading. The OP posted the image as a flight plan, which clearly it was not. I'm done playing with you over this stupid article. I read it, but it was a waste of pixels on my screen.

[MADem]

66. Did you click the link on the flight plan in the article--or were you afraid that it might

ruin a few preconceived notions?

Here it is, in case you're "unwilling" to go back to the article and actually read it:
http://www.flightradar24.com/2013-07-02/16:35/FAB1

Why did you respond to my post twice, and then tell me you are "done playing" with me?

I think the article -- once read -- causes a bit of cognitive dissonance. Early reports are often not accurate. Even WAPO backs up key elements of this story.

Ruins the narrative for some, though.



Evo gets over his irritation....

[PoliticAverse]

23. Yes, that one is brutally hilarious. n/t

[progressoid]

41. Holy crap.

That's gotta be PWD (posting while drunk).

[woo me with science]

55. Good one! My favorite is authoritarians trying to invoke AUTHORITY

when they can't argue a point. Such dark, menacing anger when the King is questioned: e.g., in bvar22's thread, "President Obama, You would be wise to Clean House....TONIGHT!"

we got:

75. I seriously doubt that PRESIDENT Obama needs advice from the likes of you.

and

117. clean your own damn house first

and don't order him around like he was your hireling.

the disrespect is intolerable.

You just KNOW if they could build a dungeon at DU and chain people up in it, they would.

I, for one, am heartened by the renewed awareness in America that our politicians *are* our hirelings. They are supposed to work for US.

[rhett o rick]

135. Sadly they will all be voting for another authoritarian in 2016. nm

[Progressive dog]

137. Presidents are supposed to work for us,

but not necessarily for you. There are a lot of us and a majority of all of us elected the President. The President actually has a job description that tells him what his job is.
You get to help fire him in 2016 (well if he wasn't limited to 2 terms), or you get to help hire a new one.
In the meantime, you are entitled to rant and rave about imagined authoritarians and others can rant and rave about Greenwald, Snowden, and the rest of the Paulite anarchists.

[sibelian]

91. Oh my God. I hadn't seen that one as poster is on my now enormous ignore list.

Good Lord...

[AnotherMcIntosh]

17. K&R

[JDPriestly]

21. Morales seems to have been as amused as you are.

http://derstandard.at/r4438/Cremers-Photoblog

Note the picture in which Morales holds a piece of paper with Edward Snowden's name on it. I have no idea what that was about. Maybe some reporter handed it to him as a sort of question, but I have no idea.

Photos of Morales with the President of Austria, waiting in the airport and giving a press conference. Lots of photos.

Austria is trying to treat Morales nicely.

Meanwhile, the French newspaper Le Monde reports that there were demonstrations in Bolivia against the French and threats to ask the ambassadors from France, Italy and Portugal to leave.

http://www.lemonde.fr/ameriques/article/2013/07/03/une-rumeur-sur-snowden-provoque-une-crise-diplomatique-entre-paris-et-la-paz_3440849_3222.html

I translated the French and some of the German reports and posted them on the thread stating that Morales had plane trouble. That could be true, but the reports that Morales was denied access to the air space over France seems to be corroborated by Le Monde even if in fact untrue.

For those interested in this story. Here is a whole page of articles from the Austrian newspaper, Die Presse.

http://diepresse.com/home/politik/aussenpolitik/1416110/USSpionageskandal?_vl_backlink=/home/index.do

http://diepresse.com/home/politik/aussenpolitik/1426275/USA-verlangten-von-Wien-Snowdens-Auslieferung?_vl_backlink=/home/politik/aussenpolitik/1416110/index.do&direct=1416110

Here is the story according to Die Presse: The pilot wanted to land because of problems with fuel, but a number of countries had refused the airplane passage through their air space (or landing rights?) -- France, Italy, Portugal and Spain have been named.

Was the plane searched? Morales allegedly gave his permission and it was, although earlier Bolivia had refused to permit a search of the plane in the Canary Islands.

According to that article, the American ambassador reported that Edward Snowden was believed to be on the plane, and thus the search was requested.

Morales' foreign minister is very upset. The Bolivian ambassador to the UN claimed that the President had been hijacked.

Wild story. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion because the story is very confused thus far.

[Tx4obama]

65. In the AUDIO on the link below pilot requested to land due to fuel gauge problems

Here: http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2013/07/tale-re-routed-bolivian-presidents-plane-falling-apart/66838/

Control tower: Do you need any assistance?

Pilot: Not at this moment. We need to land because we cannot get a correct indication of the fuel indication so as a precaution we need to land.

Happy 4th everyone

[JDPriestly]

68. And according to the Austrian news, France, Italy, Portugal and Spain denied him landing rights.

He was told that if he landed on certain islands he would have to have his plane searched. He was, apparently forced to land somewhere, but refused the ability to land in a number of countries. So that is why his foreign minister and his country were so furious. They accused the countries of endangering President Morales' life. I can understand how they felt. The original story that was published was that those countries had refused his entry into their air space.

The report I read in the French newspaper, Le Monde stated that people (I assume just a few) in Bolivia were demonstrating at the embassies and that the Bolivian government would request reprisals against the embassies -- meaning they would request that the ambassadors leave Bolivia. I don't think that will happen. I think the countries will, one by one, apologize and all will be forgiven.

Lots of photos of President Morales on Der Standard. Good photos. I don't think they published all 40 of the pictures, but they published a lot.

[Tx4obama]

69. But...

The Tale of the Re-Routed Bolivian President's Plane Is Falling Apart
PHILIP BUMP JUL 3, 2013

As you may have heard by now, Bolivian president Evo Morales supposedly had a tough time flying from home from Moscow last night after France, Portugal, Italy, and Spain refused to allow his plane to enter their airspace and Austria forced his plane to land and searched it. Except: Much of that reporting comes from a single source, the Bolivian government, and some of it has been contradicted.

<...>

Two officials with the French Foreign Ministry said Wednesday that Morales' plane had authorization to fly over France. They would not comment on why Bolivian officials said otherwise. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to be publicly named according to ministry policy.

An official with Spain's foreign ministry said Wednesday that the country on Tuesday authorized Morales' plane to fly within its airspace and to make a refueling stop. The official said Bolivia asked again this morning for permission and got it.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2013/07/tale-re-routed-bolivian-presidents-plane-falling-apart/66838/

[JDPriestly]

81. I don't base my comment on a news report directly, but it may be that they insisted that

he agree to have his plane searched as a condition for permitting him to land.

My guess is that the Austrians, (as I know their national character pretty well) agreed that he could land and then gently persuaded and flattered him into letting them search the plane. Meanwhile, time passed, and who knows where Snowden was or is. Morales looks like he is the cat that swallowed the mouse. Meanwhile, his foreign minister looks like is and has said that he is furious. Apparently Morales is a real mellow guy with a sense of humor who does not take things overly seriously. I think Morales may be the real hero, the real diplomat in the situation. There was nothing to hide in the plane, but it is a matter of diplomatic protocol that the president of a country and his plane have immunity. It was a terrible insult to Morales and to Bolivia to ask to search his plane.

[sibelian]

92. "They would not comment on why Bolivian officials said otherwise"

I wonder why not.

[Pholus]

97. That phrase is very common in the reports. Copying. However, you can still actual quotes.

All three say the same thing. Initially, there was NO permission and it took Hollende's direct authorization to undo it. This obviously didn't happen in real time, so it is plain that the only country even entertaining questions (France) initially denied access.

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_23590259/snowden-france-denies-blocking-bolivian-plane

French President Francois Hollande, speaking at a press conference in Berlin, attempted to clear up confusion about whether or not France had refused Morales' plane access to its airspace.

"There was contradictory information about the identity of the passengers aboard one or two aircraft, because there was also a doubt about the number of planes that wanted to fly over France," he said. "As soon as I knew that it was the plane of Bolivia's president, I immediately gave my authorization for the overflight."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live

French government spokeswoman Najat Vallaud-Belkacem said: "France ended up authorising the flight over its airspace by Mr Morales's plane." She said that the plane was "authorised to fly over French territory", but wouldn't say whether there had been an initial refusal last night.

http://www.thelocal.fr/20130703/snowden-affair-bolivia-furious-with-france

"The permission for overflight was indeed given," foreign ministry spokesman Philippe Lalliot said but refused to confirm reports that it had not been initially granted.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

27. When I first heard about it I pictured if the USSR had done that to Air Force One....

But then the story unravelled thanks to the Internet.

Make no mistake though. The United States went from being the leader of the free world to acting like the owner of the whole world.

Which makes people in Europe (and Canada for that matter) chuckle.

[MADem]

80. AIR FORCE ONE doesn't have to refuel three times to get home.

That was the problem, here. Evo needed fuel, and he wanted to DEVIATE from his established flight plan and get some gas sooner than he was scheduled to so do, because the gauge wasn't working (or the Russians shorted him on gas).

The other countries, likely well aware of his smartass remarks in Moscow about giving Snowden a ride, weren't going to go along with that bullshit, just in case Evo had ideas about dumping Snowden in the EU so they'd have to deal with him while he played the "Gimme asylum" game.

Evo's pilots never declared an emergency, which would have necessitated immediate clearance to land, and I know that ATC in the EU are real sticklers for sticking to the flight plan. They don't go for people flying willy-nilly all over the place, and they may have determined that Austria was best prepared to resolve this issue on behalf of the whole EU, or perhaps that was just the closest airport that could accommodate him when he made his request for an early refuel.

If you look at the flight plan, it makes sense that he went where he did.

http://www.flightradar24.com/2013-07-02/16:35/FAB1

[Spitfire of ATJ]

86. IOW: Another idiot politician who doesn't know the Internet exists....

One of these days they're gonna wake up and realize they can't do this crap.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

30. I keep hearing Phil Ochs when dealing with the authoritarians, especially

and I am adjusting the lines for today's time:

Love Me, I'm a Liberal

I cried when they shot Dr. Tiller
Tears ran down my spine
I cried when they shot Mr. Lennon
As though I'd lost a father of mine
But Tupac got what was coming
He got what he asked for this time
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I go to abortion rights rallies
And I put down the Westboro clowns
I love Jackie and Cheech and Halle
I hope every minority take Hollywood town
But don't talk about the Domestic spying
That's going a little bit too far
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I cheered when Obama was chosen
My faith in the system restored
I'm glad that Fox News is exposed
As a right wing media whore
I love every LGBT
as long as they don't move next door
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

The people living the red states
Should all hang their heads in cry
I can't understand how their minds work
Maddow and Colbert try to explain why
But if you tell me Edward Snowden's a hero
I hope the cops take down your name
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I read Mother Jones and Nation
I've learned to take every view
You know, I've memorized all of Jon Stewart
I feel like I'm almost a Jew
But when it comes to things like the Chinese
There's no one more red, white and blue
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I vote for the Democratic party
They want the U.N. to be strong
I go to all the Dixie Chicks concerts
They sure gets me singing those songs
I'll send all the money you ask for
But don't ask me to come on along
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

Once I was young and impulsive
I wore every conceivable pin
Even went to the Occupy meetings
Learned all the old union hymns
But I've grown older and wiser
And that's why I'm turning you in
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

[sibelian]

106. oof....

That's quite good.

Can I, uh, make it famous, please?

[Nanjing to Seoul]

158. Phil Ochs already did. . .but if Jello can do it, so can I. Take if you want.

Public Domain.

The songs I write are public domain. The screenplays my agent is marking now are copyrighted.

[Melinda]

112. And I heard Phil singing as I read your words! Very nice! Well done, thanks!

Good job!

[pa28]

39. I have to admit I've really enjoyed some of the things I've seen recently.

Watching the hacks and flacks take spin to the next level and try to revise reality itself is really entertaining.

[markpkessinger]

40. k&r n/t!

[quinnox]

60. they have been reduced to denying reality itself, and sticking

their collective heads in the sand in order to keep their delusions intact. This latest incident involving the Bolivian president is just one more in a series. It is remarkable to watch.

[woo me with science]

70. +10000 The flat out denial is truly stunning to watch. Straight out of Orwell.

2 + 2 = 5

“In the end the Party would announce that two and two made five, and you would have to believe it. It was inevitable that they should make that claim sooner or later: the logic of their position demanded it.”

“DOUBLETHINK": The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them... To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just as long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies – all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth.” 1984 Orwell

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink

Orwell explains that the Party could not protect its iron power without degrading its people with constant propaganda. Yet knowledge of this brutal deception, even within the Inner Party itself, could lead to the implosion of the State. Although Nineteen Eighty-Four is most famous for the Party's pervasive surveillance of everyday life, this control means that the population of Oceania – all of it and including the ruling elite – could be controlled and manipulated merely through the alteration of everyday thought and language. Newspeak is the method for controlling thought through language; doublethink is the method of directly controlling thought.

[woo me with science]

88. "Reality-based Community"

Newspeak is Ingsoc and Ingsoc is Newspeak.

'Don't you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it. Every concept that can ever be needed, will be expressed by exactly one word, with its meaning rigidly defined and all its subsidiary meanings rubbed out and forgotten. Already, in the Eleventh Edition, we're not far from that point. But the process will still be continuing long after you and I are dead. Every year fewer and fewer words, and the range of consciousness always a little smaller. Even now, of course, there's no reason or excuse for committing thoughtcrime. [font color=blue]It's merely a question of self-discipline, reality-control. [/font color]
Orwell, 1984

"Doublethink"
"Thoughtcrime"
"Superlative" CPI
"Ethical" DroneStrikes
"Transparency"
"RealityBasedCommunity"

[quinnox]

136. Seeing that guys posts, It makes me wonder if "reality-based community" is supposed to be

satiric in nature.

[sibelian]

93. Dear, oh dear.

....

[JDPriestly]

61. K&R.

[Skittles]

82. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[sibelian]

94. Well, you know, they SAY they are. On the Internet. And everything.

It's just seals the deal. Credibility to the max, bro.

[Skittles]

125. SCHEDULING SIBELIAN FOR AN ASS KICKING

WE ALL KNOW IT'S "THE INTERNETS"; yes INDEED

[woo me with science]

129. And they have MAPS.

[woo me with science]

89. You are totally out of line.

I have a map that proves it.

[Aerows]

104. LOL!

Clearly that's the CORRECT flight plan!

[Catherina]

108. +1! Lots of Pig Squealing and Very Little Fleece! n/t

[DisgustipatedinCA]

111. Do you see the dotted line on your map of Eurogen?

Flying over that line depletes fuel tanks. Mystery solved--that's why they had to land in Vienna (which is just out of frame on the left side of the map).

[whatchamacallit]

95. To be expected

Authoritarians are domineering tools. Ignorant and cocksure.

[sigmasix]

96. "authoritarians" must be the latest right wing buzz word

The fantasy world of the conspiracy mongers is very precious to them- they are willing to do anything to fool americans into beleiving Obama is an evil tyrant, out to spy on every American. Then, when intelligent, honest people point out the fact that smearing the president's name and questioning his patriotism is exactly what they are doing, they cry about people smearing Snowden or Greenwald. Just so we know the new rules from the Obama is a traitor crowd- smearing the president and other politicians over a paranoid conspiracy belief is perfectly fine, but anyone that mentions the short-comings and personal demons of Snowden and Greenwald is guilty of smearing the name honest law breakers and colluding with the "authoritarians".
I wonder how long these paranoid fantasy conspiracy mongers will be at work to destroy America's cohesion and sense of justice.

[sibelian]

99. Yeah, you see my problem is that "personal demons"

ain't got shit-all to do with politics.

[Pholus]

101. "You will find liberals always rooting for savages against civilization."

–Ann Coulter

The language convergence is continuing....

[HangOnKids]

130. America's cohesion and sense of justice is a MYTH

Short comings and personal demons? Is there a human being alive that does not have those?

[Th1onein]

152. I've yet to read ONE post saying that Obama is a traitor and smearing Obama.

NOT ONE. NOT ONE!

People are pissed off because Obama promised us that he would end this surveillance, and he did NOT. And now we find out that it's worse than it ever was, and Obama goes on Teevee and tells us that this program is "transparent."

Secret courts, secret laws, secret interpretation of laws. And they're hoovering up our fucking communications. People are pissed! And rightly so.

It isn't about Obama. It isn't about Snowden. It isn't about Greenwald. It's about US, and who we are as a nation, and what kind of government we have, and what we're willing to put up with.

And, brother, mass surveillance is NOT something any American should put up with, no matter who is president.

[sibelian]

157. They can't attack the real position so they have to make one up.

[Mojorabbit]

161. Preach it! nt

[alcibiades_mystery]

102. DU re: DU

[bemildred]

105. A thing of beauty, it is.

And you don't have to hardly lift a finger, just stand back and watch it happen.

[backscatter712]

109. Comedy gold!

Watching them fly apart is hilarious!

I'm sure they're waiting for the new round of talking points to come down from the focus groups, then they'll be back. They've got the Big Lie technique to work with. All they have to do is cook up some new lies.

[ProSense]

116. For me,

watching the Ecuador story unfold "has been totally worth the price of admission."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023163029

[DirkGently]

126. We should map the dissembling for posterity.

It's evolving minute-to-minute, as one false theme after the other collapses.

Off the top of my head.

STAGE I - Denial / general attempts to ridicule

- Didn't happen. Morales smiled in a picture.
- Didn't happen. Morales has a "hairpiece."
- Didn't happen. France says so.
- Didn't happen. Austrian officials are more credible than Bolivian officials.
- Didn't happen. It was a "fuel gauge problem."
- Didn't happen. Here's a Google Map of an airport.

STAGE II - Obfuscation

- We can't know if it happened, because there was that French denial before that French apology.
- We can't know if it happened, because there's a lot of information coming out.
- We can't know if it happened, because a lot of people argued before that it didn't happen, even though it now looks like it happened.

STAGE III - First admission of facts, coupled with denial / obfuscation of cause

- Well, something happened, sure, but we don't know why.
- Okay, well, yes, several countries were involved in stopping a diplomatic flight, probably for no reason. Those crazy foreigners!

STAGE IV - Further backpedaling of denial / first theories of non-culpability

- Okay, they were looking for Snowden and they stopped a diplomatic flight. Purely for their own reasons
- Well, yes, obviously they stopped a diplomatic flight, looking for Snowden, based on U.S. concerns, but on their recognizance
- Sure, they stopped a diplomatic flight, looking for Snowden, to appease the U.S., but it's not like we called them or something. Haha.
- Okay, we called them. Probably. But they won't confirm / deny so ... suck it?

STAGE V - Rationalization / Justification

- We did it. So what? Something something treaties, something "international fugitive."
- Everybody does it. Or would do it. Or should do it.

All within 12 hours or so.

Amazing.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

128. Heh... Posterity, and I, thank you. I believe you covered all the relevant talking points.

It's been quite a ride:

[sibelian]

131. Bookmarking.

The Morales Incident will go down in DU history as the most entertaining battle yet in the Great Snowden Wars....

[Cleita]

146. When this is over and we get the whole story, I see a lot of crow

on the menu. I have already seen "facts" that have been debunked showing up over and over because the narrative fits the story they want rather than the truth.

[sibelian]

156. They are NEVER going to admit to being in the wrong, it's all plain chutzpah.

Even when they have absolutely nothing whatsoever, they still brass it out.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

139. *That* was good.

[Drew Richards]

141. This is feekin awesome! Thank you...your post is the power of truth shining a light on roaches...nt

[GoneFishin]

144. Awesome. Thanks DirkGently.

[suffragette]

154. Well mapped, Dirk

Yes, it has been amazing to see the progression of this.

[Mojorabbit]

162. + a gazillion. nt

[Marr]

151. It's the cherry on top of a 3-week long discrediting sundae.

I can't bring myself to take them seriously enough to even respond to them after that. They've become cartoonish-- like the Bushbots of a few years ago.

[Octafish]

163. Some people think his plane was forced down.

Not true as it was just running out of gas.