Claims Bolivian Presidential Plane Denied Airspace Is Bullshit. IT HAD FUEL GAUGE PROBLEMS

[KittyWampus]

Go to link for voice of the actual pilot's comment.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2013/07/tale-re-routed-bolivian-presidents-plane-falling-apart/66838/

Pilot to Tower: "We need to land because we cannot get a correct indication of the fuel indication so as a precaution we need to land."

It seems most logical the plane landed so they could fix the fuel gauge.

Furthermore,

"According to records of the plane's flight path, it travelled from Russia into Belarus, then over Poland and the Czech Republic until it entered Austrian airspace. Midway over Austria, the plane turned west, then doubled back before landing. (You can watch the flight path in an animation here.) If it was rerouted from its original path, that only occurred once the plane was in Austria."

SO- despite the Bolivians' claims, the truth is much simpler.

And here is image of flight path:

[LondonReign2]

1. Those silly French!

they apologized for something they never did!

And the other countries that supposedly denied him airspace as well? Most likely mistaken.

The demand to search his plane before he could leave? Never happened

On Edit: Those silly Portuguese too!

[KittyWampus]

2. The actual evidence shows what happened.

[Buzz Clik]

3. What!!!1 No poutrage justified?

Damnit!

[Bonobo]

5. If so, it's not in THAT trashy article with the slanted, yellow-journalistic photo. nt

[KittyWampus]

7. It's all documented… and contains the ACTUAL BOLIVIAN PILOT'S VOICE. LOL!

[MannyGoldstein]

18. Do they sound like Jose Jimenez?

If so, they may be psyops.

[QC]

31. Carmen Miranda.

?w=645

[Skittles]

125. STOP IT QC

[HooptieWagon]

32. Maybe she pieced together Taco Bell Chiuahua commercial clips

The map was such an obvious fake, there was no reason to read further. Bad fake = Epic fail.

[HooptieWagon]

19. WTF?

Thats not the flight path, you've been played. It only shows a 20 km circle of Moscow, and a plane flight of 100km. Austria isn't even on the map!

[LondonReign2]

37. Indeed

"The actual evidence shows what happened."

Yes. Yes, it does.

[HooptieWagon]

47. LOL! Perhaps just not what they intended.

[ljm2002]

41. So the French President...

...acknowledging that he, personally, lifted the no-overflight order -- that's not real evidence? His apology carries no weight with you? I guess he just made up something to apologize for, so that Morales wouldn't feel that he was the only one telling his version of the story.

I guess you think Morales and his pilot just made the whole thing up, for reasons unknown?

Well, we surely are grateful to have you here to let us all in on what the "actual evidence" shows.

[HooptieWagon]

46. Only evidence I see is a highway map of Moscow surrounds.

I guess the pilot was mighty confused talking to Austria while landing near Moscow. Not to mention that fuel guzzling plane that runs out after 100 miles.

[MADem]

83. There is a link to the flight plan and a representation of the flight in the article.

The highway map of Moscow is an illustration in the article to show the distance between the airport where Evo's plane was, and the airport where Snowden was holed up (not the same airports, obviously).

From the article, accompanying the illustration that you are questioning:

The claim: Snowden could have been on the plane.

This is perhaps the easiest claim to debunk. Morales' plane, The Times notes, departed from Vnukovo Airport, which is 27 miles away and on the opposite side of Moscow from Sheremetyevo Airport where Snowden is currently living.

[HooptieWagon]

90. OP called the map the flight plan, and even described it in detail.

Hilarity ensued. Of course, even if an actual flight plan had been posted, it still had no basis substantiating OP's claim. When fuel runs critically low, fuel guages aren't accurate. Even if OP's account of pilot radio transmission is true, that merely substantiates Bolivia's account that fuel was critically low. No mention in media of mechanics being called to fix fuel guages...which you would want operational before crossing Atlantic Ocean to Brazil.
Look, the OP was a hysterical epic fail. Accept it and move on. Or dig yourself a deeper hole. Your choice.

[MADem]

95. If you read the article, it is very clear what that pic represents, AND the flight plan IS posted in

the article.

It's not "hilarity." All the elements of the OP are in fact in the article--the picture of the map is simply showing how far apart the two airports are.

Here's the flight plan, FROM the article: http://www.flightradar24.com/2013-07-02/16:35/FAB1

You can see that the flight turned back in Austria.

Read the article. Listen to the pilot speak at the link which was provided, again, IN the article.

http://audioboo.fm/boos/1482009-bolivia-air-force-fuerza-aerea-boliviana-fab001-flight-precaution-landing-vienna-austria

If you had actually clicked on the link, you wouldn't be mocking what the OP says. You might be scolding about an apparent misrepresentation, but that map is in the article, showing, as I said, the distance between two Moscow airports.

[muriel_volestrangler]

139. It definitely is 'hilarity'. But the French apology shows they were turned back from French airspace

and this OP was written long after that apology came out. So, even leaving out the 'here is image of flight path' comedy, we know that the French turned the plane back. It seems fair to take the Bolivians' word for it that Italy did the same (looking at the flight path, that would have been the next country, before the plane started to turn). With that, you have a plane unable to head in the direction it wants to - if you can't go across France or Italy, it's a large diversion from Austria to go anywhere to the south west. They would have to land somewhere to refuel that they hadn't planned on. The pilot is asked if he needs any assistance, and he replies not at that moment, but he does need to land as a precaution because they "cannot get a correct indication of the fuel indication". So that is saying "don't put us in a holding pattern". The pilot is told to continue on his heading - so this is after he has turned back from the route that would have gone over Italy. They know they need to land somewhere soon, and they've chosen Vienna, the capital of the country they're over, and probably a good choice, diplomatically - not actually a NATO member, and thus more neutral than the countries that have been denying flight rights.

Perhaps there was some doubt about a gauge. Perhaps the pilot just wanted to land, rather than circle for hours with his president in the back.

[MADem]

144. The Portuguese said that the a/c tried to get a refueling authorization in Lisbon.

They denied him. Apparently he tried to get it more than once, before he even left Russia, and Lisbon said NO. He also tried to get a refueling authorization in continental Spain, and was likewise denied, though they said he could refuel in the Canaries.

We do not know when the first instance of the pilot requesting a fueling stop was. It could have been earlier than the recording linked at Atlantic Wire indicates. We know he really wanted to go to Lisbon, but he was thwarted.

I do think this imbroglio has something to do with Snowden, but it was aided and abetted by the pilot who wanted to put as many legs down as he could and wanted to fuel optimally to make that happen. The EU ATC wasn't seeing it that way, though.

There is another perspective to this dust-up, as well, that has domestic Bolivian implications: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324399404578585041906862494.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Not everyone was so sympathetic to the president. Rene Castillo, a taxi driver who voted for Mr. Morales in two elections, thinks the president is using the plane incident and a border dispute with Chile as distractions from domestic problems like poverty, unemployment and corruption.

I don't know how many crews they had onboard that plane, I do know that some of the crewmembers were napping during the Austrian layover.

"Evo goes around provoking half the world as if Bolivia were a great power," Mr. Castillo said.

[muriel_volestrangler]

149. But our basic facts are:

France acknowledges that it at first said the plane could not cross French airspace.

Bolivia claims that Italy said that too.

The plane, after a course that would have gone over Italy, and almost certainly French airspace too, turned 180+ degrees over Austria.

After the plane has asked to land at Vienna, and after the turn (though we can't say in which order those 2 events happened) the recording starts.

Vienna asks "do you need assistance after landing?"

The pilot replies "no, but we do need to land as a precaution, because we're not sure about our fuel indication".

The Portuguese denial of landing rights does look suspicious - "technical reasons" that they would be unable to refuel a standard plane sounds like bullshit, and, in reality, it seems more likely they had been told Snowden could be on the plane and they didn't want him to land. Lisbon seems to have been the logical refuelling place - the original flight plane was to refuel at Lisbon and then Guyana. I don't see that as "as many legs as possible". It's really pushing the limits of the plane's range to get to La Paz in one go from the European/African side (even from the Canaries - about 7500km, and the plane's range is 8300km), and it's also pushing the limits to get to South America from Moscow in one go. So they planned for a stop on both the north-east coast of South America, and one on the south-west coast of Europe.

If the dispute over permission to land started well before the plane took off, it seems the Bolivians may have thought "they can't seriously be saying they'll deny our president permission to do a routine refuelling stop" - and then found out the countries were indeed giving a collective "fuck you" to Morales.

Don't try to muddy the waters with what cab drivers are saying. Who are you, Tom Friedman?

[Demit]

158. LOL on the bullseye dig at Tom Friedman.

[nashville_brook]

186. +1

[MADem]

199. Portugal didn't want Evo dumping Snowden off on their tarmac.

They denied him landing/refueling from RUSSIA, from what I understand. It wasn't that, mid-air, they stiff armed him. They told the pilot when he was still in Russia, a day before they took off, that he could fly over but not refuel. Same with Spain--they wanted to land IN Spain to refuel, and Spain said--when they were still in Russia-- that they best they could do was the Canaries. I have no doubt the reason for this was all the joking about Snowden--the Canary Islands isn't the best place to ask for asylum; certainly not the most affordable, at any rate. So the pilot filed the flight plan thusly, and then, after they took off, the whole "fuel gauge" business came to the fore. Evo's pilot knew where he was supposed to refuel; so one has to ask, was there really a problem with the fuel gauge, or was Evo looking for a little attention, a way to say "How dare you deny me refueling? Let's see what we can do to shake things up?"

It wasn't a "fuck you" by the EU --it was more of a "What do you think you are trying to pull?"

Evo spent half his time in Moscow yukking it up about Snowden, as did Maduro. And when he got to Austria he didn't shun the spotlight by a long shot. This whole faux drama has given him more international press than he's gotten in the last decade. He now has potential to be a question on JEOPARDY, he's gone from regional actor to International Player. He's getting more attention than he ever has:








Hollande managed to provide France with plausible deniability by being away in Belgium--he probably knew what was going on as it happened, but no way to prove that. So he was able to talk, believably, about a "delay" as opposed to a denial. I'll bet he didn't want the possibility of "Snowden on a French tarmac" happening, either.


I also can't help but notice that the bulk of the video news reports available on the net are from RT and RT in Espanol....I do not think this is an accident. Pootie Poot must be having quite the laugh...he'd better watch himself, though, because he's got the Olympics coming up, and a scheduled visit with POTUS coming up in Sep. He doesn't want to be acting like doofus Bush, jerking chains and mocking overmuch.

The upshot of this all is that Morales, and a few of his neighbors as well, are using this incident to try to distract from domestic issues. It may work for a few days. It won't over the long haul, though.

[muriel_volestrangler]

205. They would be denying *any Bolivian plane*, probably even knowing this one was the president's

They did not deny a plane known to be carrying Snowden. Doing it in advance is even worse - that means they were willing to screw around with the president of Bolivia, just on the grounds that he was in the same city as Snowden. Morales had not said he was going to bring Snowden back on the plane. They just assumed that he would, and said "fuck you Bolivia, we assume your president will want to annoy the USA, which is our Lord and Master".

"Evo's pilot knew where he was supposed to refuel" - and he knew he could not reach it, because France and Italy had denied passage through their airspace. That's if Spain really had said at that stage that going through their airspace, and landing in the Canaries, was OK, which I'm not sure is confirmed. We need written statements from Spain, and Portugal, France and Italy, that they're prepared to talk about in the UN, that state exactly when they made what decisions about airspace and landing.

"How dare you deny me refueling? Let's see what we can do to shake things up?" - this is exactly what a head of state should say in this situation. No decent country should deny a head of state refuelling, unless they're actually at war. Heads of state should not be fucked with by an anonymous bureaucrat, just to please Uncle Sam.

Morales is a head of state. He was not 'trying to pull' anything. He was flying - an activity that millions of people do every day, and for which ATC happily do their job. They don't get told "we don't trust you, because we're more right wing than you; you can't fly or stop here". That Morales is an elected head of state makes this insult really appalling.

"So he was able to talk, believably, about a "delay" as opposed to a denial." - in a civilised country, it's not up to the president to screen each flight coming in. That doesn't happen, and you know that very well. All Hollande has done is give himself a bit of plausible deniability, by making the insult appear to come from some underling in ATC, the foreign office, or the security services. What France has had to admit is that someone was treating a head of state like a suspected criminal. Unless you fall for Portugal's "technical reasons", they have effectively admitted the same as well.

[MADem]

218. Morales acknowledged his role in the brouhaha, even as he complained about it.

Bolivian president says he regrets offering NSA whistleblower asylum, but Europe should free itself from US imperialism
Associated Press in La Paz
guardian.co.uk, Thursday 4 July 2013 03.08 EDT

...Morales had suggested while in Russia that he would be willing to consider giving Snowden asylum in Bolivia.

"I regret this, but I want to say that some European countries should free themselves from North American imperialism," he said....

It is still unclear whether European countries did block the plane and, if so, why. French, Spanish and Portuguese officials have all said the plane was allowed to cross their territory.

They knew who was on the plane--it was Bolivian Air Force One, no mystery. They also knew about all his yukking and joking and suggestions about Snowden, they knew his aircrew had asked for refueling in the EU, and they knew he'd been told, time and again, that this wasn't happening except in Las Canarias.

Crossing territory was one thing--landing and refueling, another. That's the crux of this matter, here--Evo's pilots filed a flight plan that had them refueling in the Canary Islands, and they may very well have intended all along to deviate from it with a "fuel gauge" excuse. That could account for his remarks in the past day about regretting offering Snowden asylum.

Twice Portugal told them they could not refuel in Lisbon, and Spain had told them they could not refuel in continental Spain, either--before the plane ever left Russia.

[muriel_volestrangler]

219. Having found his actual speech, I don't tihnk the 'regret' was about Snowden at all

The speech is here, and we're looking at the section from about 5:30 onwards.

http://actualidad.rt.com/actualidad/view/99160-bolivia-evo-morales-avion

Notice that RT says "después de lo cual el presidente salió de escena, sin mencionar al ex colaborador de la CIA, Edward Snowden" - "after which, the president left the scene, without mentioning the ex-collaborator of the CIA, Edward Snowden". The sentence before "Lamento mucho" is also about 'North American imperialism", though I can't catch is exactly. The actual sentence, transcribed here, is:

Lamento mucho y quiero decirles a algunos países de Europa que tienen que liberarse del imperio norteamericano. No puedo entender que algunos países sean fieles sirvientes y obedientes del imperialismo norteamericano

"I regret this, but I want to say that some European countries should free themselves from American empire. I can not understand that some countries are faithful and obedient servants of U.S. imperialism."

He 'regrets' that he is about to tell some European countries they're under the thumb of the USA. I think the AP report is highly misleading, whether or not it means to - the 'regret' had nothing to do with the asylum offer.

I'll see if anyone in the Latin America group can translate the sentence before "lamento mucho", to be sure.

[MADem]

220. Well, you are quoting Putin's news agency, that answers directly to him and is his propaganda arm,

and I'm quoting Glenn Greenwald's employer, and you can think of them what you''d like.

If you think RT is a reliable source, I have a bridge to sell you. I will say that the quote that describes Snowden as a "CIA collaborator" isn't terribly encouraging for him.

Time will tell, in any event.

These guys on the other end of the spectrum aren't too enthused about his prospects, either:

Morales said he never saw Snowden when he was in Russia, and that Bolivia had not received a formal request for asylum for him.
Bolivia has said that it will summon the French and Italian ambassadors and the Portuguese consul to demand explanations.
Despite the complaints, there were no signs that Latin America leaders were moving to bring Snowden to the region that had been seen as the most likely to grant him asylum.

....The emergency stop in Austria may have been caused by a row over where the plane could refuel and whether European authorities could inspect it for signs of Snowden.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/bolivia/10161281/Bolivia-threatens-to-close-US-embassy-after-Edward-Snowden-plane-incident.html

[muriel_volestrangler]

221. Not quoting RT, apart from the claim that he didn't mention Snowden

The full video is there - I can't hear Snowden mentioned in it, but I'm not a Spanish speaker. Can you hear it?

Other quotes are of what Morales said - which is what is under discussion. Only the AP report mentions asylum close to the 'lamento mucho' translation. For instance, the Independent says:

Arriving back home to La Paz early this morning, the leftist President accused the US of using “the agent of North American imperialism to scare us and intimidate us”. He said: “I regret this, but I want to say that some European countries should free themselves from North American imperialism.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/edward-snowden-saga-bolivian-president-evo-morales-could-close-us-embassy-in-response-to-north-american-imperialism-8688875.html

This is why I've posted a link to the complete video of the speech, which is on RT. I think the Guardian has got this wrong.

'Collaborator', of course, means 'co-worker'. In some senses, in English, it's a pejorative; in others, it's not (eg "Crick, and his collaborator Watson, discovered the structure of DNA&quot . I don't think your Spanish is good enough to tell us what the implications of the word are in that language, seeing as you can't translate the sentence before 'lamento mucho'.

[muriel_volestrangler]

223. And The Guardian has changed the sub-headline to make it clear Morales does not regret

talking about offering Snowden asylum.

It now reads "Bolivian president says Europe should free itself from US imperialism"

and the text says:

Morales had suggested while in Russia that he would be willing to consider giving Snowden asylum in Bolivia.

"I regret (saying) this, but I want to say that some European countries should free themselves from North American imperialism," he said.

and at the end, it now reads:

• A subheading and the text was amended on 5 July 2013. As the result of a misreading of the edited agency story about President Morales's speech, a subheading stated that the president regretted offering Snowden asylum. He did not.

"

[MADem]

224. Well, then everything the Guardian says must be assumed to be suspect, then!

Including all of their juicy "whistleblower" details (that weren't terribly factual either--but that didn't divert anyone, did it?)/

[freshwest]

214. But he looks so cute in all these pictures. I like Evo. And Putin. And Obama. And I liked Hugo.

Why can't we all just get along?

[dkf]

108. Still chortling. :)

[kentuck]

171. It's fucking funny!

[Historic NY]

194. Bingo and there is no way he could have gotten there.........

Russia would not allow him to leave Sheremetyevo Airport. 99% of this story is faux outrage, speculation and fantasy..........amazing what misinformation is spread.

[MADem]

198. Evo didn't help matters--he was yukking it up in Moscow about giving Eddie a lift.

Maduro was doing it, too. They were joking to beat the band, and who knows, the EU may have thought "Shit, El Presidente is gonna dump Fast Eddie out on the tarmac with an asylum request clutched in his thin, delicate hand!"

[kardonb]

78. actual evidence

don't confuse all those that want to discredit our government , with inconvenient facts . Besides , Evo Morales was never our ally or friend , and would use any lousy excuse to make trouble and seem important .

[HangOnKids]

92. Ah The Old Evo Was Just Not Into The USA Canard

He doesn't have to seem important he actually is important, and you are who exactly?

[MADem]

96. Old Evo is into us well enough--we are his largest non-energy sector trading partner. nt

[JDPriestly]

87. The Austrian press did not report the story you say was reported on the AtlanticWire.

I read German. Der Standard is a reputable Austrian newspaper. They were reporting on the crisis live. The Bolivian foreign minister was furious. Just livid. I don't know where the Atlantic Wire got its information but it certainly does not match what I was reading in the Austrian press.

I'm surprised you haven't read one of my posts.

Here is what I posted during Morales's stay in Vienna.

I'm going to shorten this. Interior Minister, Johanna Miki-Leitner (Volks-Partei -- conservative Christian Party) said in the Austria 1 morning journal that if Snowden had been found on board (Morales' plane), it would have come to a routine asylum procedure in Austria. . . . . . Whether it would be successful, the Minister did not want to say. She did not want to interfere in the decision of the authorities and an independent court. Basically, a request for asylum in Austria must be filed within a country and that is so also in Austria. A request on behalf of Snowden through the Russian embassy in Moscow is therefore not effective. An exception from this policy is for the Minister not an option: "There are clear legal rules."

Mikl-Leitner: Österreich hat keine Angst vor den USA

Innenministerin Johanna Mikl-Leitner (ÖVP) sagte im Ö1-Morgenjournal, dass es, hätte sich Snowden an Bord befunden, zu einem regulären Asylverfahren in Österreich gekommen wäre. Ein solches Verfahren beginne mit der Feststellung der Identität der Person und einem Erstgespräch mit der Asylbehörde. Ob ein solches Verfahren Chancen auf Erfolg hätte, wollte die Ministerin nicht kommentieren. Sie wolle Entscheidungen von Behörden und unabhängigen Gerichten nicht vorgreifen. Grundsätzlich muss ein Antrag auf Asyl in Österreich immer im Inland - also in Österreich - gestellt werden. Der Antrag von Snowden über die russische Botschaft in Moskau ist deswegen nicht gültig. Ein Abrücken von dieser Position ist für die Ministerin keine Option: "Es gibt klare gesetzliche Regelungen."

Miki-Leitner stated that Austria is not afraid of the USA as are perhaps some other European countries because Austria did not close its airspace off to Morales. The Interior Minister said further, she understands the sympathy for Snowden that a large portion of the people have since afrter all, he started an important debate about the legitimacy of the secret police (not a really good translation for Geheimdienste -- maybe intelligence agency is better, but neither is right. I am not a native speaker of German.) Miki-Leitner described the current relationship with the USA as disturbed. That is why, with Germany. a catalog of questions was prepared and given to the USA and they are pressing for answers.

Mikl-Leitner betonte, es gebe keine Angst vor den USA, wie vielleicht in anderen europäischen Ländern, denn Österreich habe schließlich seinen Luftraum für die Maschine von Morales nicht gesperrt. Die Innenministerin sagte weiter, sie verstehe die Sympathien, die Snowden von großen Teilen der Bevölkerung entgegen gebracht werden, schließlich haben er eine wichtige Debatte über die Legitimität der Geheimdienste losgetreten. Mikl-Leitner bezeichnete auch die derzeitigen Beziehungen zu den USA als gestört. Deshalb gebe es auch einen Fragenkatalog, der gemeinsam mit Deutschland erarbeitet und an die USA übergeben wurde, und auf dessen Beantwortung jetzt gedrängt werde.

http://derstandard.at/1371171373025/Morales-Flugzeug-in-Wien-zwischengelandet---Snowden-an-Bord-vermutet

This report may be pretty old by the time people read it, but it is what I found on the Der Standard Austrian newspaper at 12:52 a.m. Pacific Time, July 3, 2013.

I warned that Germans and Austrians would not like this kind of surveillance. I studied this topic at one point of my life -- German speech rights. This program is very offensive to German-speaking people because of their experience with the STASI and the NAZI spying and concentration camps for which they paid so dearly.

This kind of program will lead to misery in the US. I warned that Germany and Austria would be seriously aggrieved, and now I am telling you that it will also end badly for Americans. I won't be its victim. I will probably be totally feeble before the water that we frogs are swimming in boils.

But those of you who take this lightly and think it is great just because Obama is in charge should stop to think. What if Romney had won the election? Obama will not always be in charge. We trust him, but he will not always be in charge. Stock up on second-hand books, old ones that were written before this nonsense. Do it now so you will have something to read when the internet turns into corporate nonsense.

[MADem]

107. Well, even WAPO backed up key elements of the ATLANTIC story...I think that a couple of

quotes from politicians isn't telling the full story. Also, the Austrians are certainly saying something quite different for international media consumption:

Bolivian narrative: ‘North American imperialism’


Bolivian officials have issued a flurry of statements, at first stating that France and Portugal had denied the flight permission to enter their air space, then later implying that Spain and Italy had done so as well. The officials charged two things: that European countries had done this because they believed Morales had secretly taken Snowden on board his plane and because they had been pressured by the United States.
Bolivia’s ambassador to the United Nations, who pledged to file a complaint accusing foreign governments of “kidnapping” Morales, issued a statement saying, “We will demand appropriate explanations from those countries that submitted to North American imperialism and briefly put President Morales in such a helpless situation.” Defense Minister Ruben Saavedra, also on the flight, told Bolivian media, “This proves with clarity an attitude of sabotage and plotting by the United States, pressuring European governments.”
Bolivian statements all seem to agree that the plane was searched by Austrian officials while in Vienna. But some – though not all – have hinted that they may not have agreed to the search. The country’s UN ambassador called the search illegal and an act of aggression, but this line has not been repeated as widely as other complaints. A photo from inside the plane during the stop-over shows Morales smiling next to his Austrian counterpart, President Heinz Fischer.....


Austrian narrative: They landed for fuel, we searched with permission

According to Austrian statements, flight FAB-001 requested permission to land in Vienna because the pilots believed they might not have had sufficient fuel. Austrians say they searched the plane with Morales’ permission and checked the passports of all passengers, but called this “routine.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/07/03/evo-morales-controversial-flight-over-europe-minute-by-heavily-disputed-minute/

What is clear, and what wasn't evident initially, is that Evo's plane needed fuel sooner than their scheduled gas-n-go, and that is why they needed to land.

Evo might want to invest in longer range a/c if he doesn't want to have to deal! I think, though, that he actually got just what he wanted out of this interaction--increased name and 'persona' recognition. You can be sure that millions of people, who didn't have any idea who the leader of Bolivia was, now knows, should they be asked on Cash Cab or Jeopardy, that the dude in charge is Evo Morales and he is a left-ish of center type. He got a profile boost on the international stage, and he'll want that in future years when he's looking for future associations--unless he's planning on being "President for Life" of Bolivia (which would require another major tweak to their Constitution and mess with his public image, certainly--he could get away with it once, but twice?).

[JDPriestly]

113. I read the articles in the Austrian and French newspapers.

There is more to the story than meets the eye and lots of contradictions. You are right in that Morales really stole the scene, caught the eye of the world in Vienna. There are lots of pictures of Morales in Vienna in Der Standard.

http://derstandard.at/r4438/Cremers-Photoblog

I think that one of the pieces of paper he is holding has Edward Snowden's name on it.

Morales is all smiles. He is a nice guy from what I see in the pictures, but Snowden was not in his plane. The reports claim that the American ambassador said that Snowden was there.

Having read the reports quite carefully and understanding French and German as well as I do (not perfectly but quite well), I would say that there was a sort of confusion-on-purpose underway. People are afraid of the US but do not like this massive surveillance program.

I don't think anyone minds a targeted, discrete, small program honing in on terrorists. But this program is a threat to mankind. And, the world would have to agree on the definition of terrorists. Are people who oppose the Cuban government terrorists? How about the people protesting in the streets against Morsi in Egypt? Who is a terrorist? How do we identify them? Are terrorists defined as such based on their political opinions? Is it a matter of whether we subjectively agree with them? Or is a terrorist anyone who attempts to achieve a political goal through violence? Are there terrorist states? If so, how do we recognize them? What are the criteria to be applied in deciding whether a state is terrorist?

Is the world to be ruled by the country with the most information, the greatest ability to blackmail others? Or is it to be ruled by bands of individuals who take over countries and make themselves into dictatorial groups?

This Edward Snowden case raises a lot of questions beyond merely whether surveillance of every electronic communication in the world should be permitted or is even useful. I think that the discussion about these issues is very worthwhile.

Countries like Bolivia and Austria -- small countries that lack the means to set up huge systems to read all the electronic trash or even collect and categorize electronically all the electronic trash of their citizens or of the world -- are understandably very unhappy that the US, this big hulk of a country (from their view) this potential or actual bully is reading their e-mails and possibly wiretapping their embassies.

We need to walk in the shoes of others once in a while. We will get along better in the world if we do. Living in other countries opened my eyes to how others feel and how they see their place in the world.

[MADem]

118. I think a lot of people weighed in without asking ATC what actually was going on.

I think the pilots may have been slow to explain the full dimensions of the difficulty to Evo, as well, which would account for his initial fit of pique, followed by pleasantries with the Austrian leadership and his mugging for the press:



I have had some experience with air traffic control in Europe. They don't "do" deviations well at all. Unless the pilot was declaring an emergency (and he wasn't), they aren't going to let just anyone land anywhere.

I think there is more to this story, but I don't think it has to do with Big Bad America. It could well be that European nations, for their own reasons--the main one being that they view Snowden as a little shit, a hot potato, a guy with little actual "news" but a lot of hubris--as way more trouble than he is worth, AND that they (initially) regarded Evo's request as a subterfuge to try and dump Snowden off on them--and they weren't having it.

Evo, for his part, wanted the 'rispetto' accorded to a head of state, and initially took umbrage at not being accorded it and being viewed as an actor in the Snowden drama. I'm guessing after he thought about it, he realized that his jokes in Moscow about the guy had been noted, and lightened up. He managed to increase his Q Score on the world stage, so it ended up being a Big Win for him.

[MannyGoldstein]

4. Cheese-eating surrender monkeys!

Although they actually won our Revolutionary War for us, but let's keep that a secret, 'kay?

[cherokeeprogressive]

6. Wow. So, it flew directly over the highway? Odd.

[LondonReign2]

9. Not only wasn't their fuel gauge working

neither was their navigation system. They were forced to fly low and read the highway signs

[cherokeeprogressive]

15. Jorge? Take the first left, then make another left at the M10. n/t

[muriel_volestrangler]

138. Morales moonlights as the drive-time flying eye for Radio Moscow

"we got 6 lanes of traffic, 3 lanes movin' slooooww ..."

[Rex]

208. Why is that odd?

nt.

[MannyGoldstein]

8. They should have said "Hey Austria, we need to land because France...

is refusing for us to fly there". That wouldn't potentially start new trouble with Austria, not at all.

[dkf]

10. No search for Snowden then? Really?

[Incitatus]

89. The article I read said the plane was searched. That is strange.

This isn't just some private plane. It's a President's plane.

[LittleBlue]

12. You are behind

France has apologised to Bolivia for refusing to allow President Evo Morales' jet into its airspace, blaming "conflicting information".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23174874

INb4 the lock

[Cali_Democrat]

14. K&R

[LondonReign2]

28. LOL, awesome

I'm impressed by your obstinance in the face of mere facts

[HooptieWagon]

36. Lack of facts never stopped them before.

Although this is a pretty epic example.

[morningfog]

16. France apologized. Portugal admitted they refused landing. Please try to keep up.

[Pholus]

22. Supporting link from the BBC.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23174874

[Cali_Democrat]

17. Of course this is the new DU

So audio proof doesn't count.

[pscot]

23. The image in the OP is completely bogus

See post 21, this thread.

[morningfog]

25. Oh, it counts. And it comports with Bolivia's account of the incident.

[PoliticAverse]

29. And you appear to be one of those 'new Democrats'. n/t

[freshwest]

182. Cali_Democrat, here's the only audio proof that does count:

Tyranny never sleeps and neither do we! Take that, Evil Empire! Booyah!

[sgtbenobo]

20. Hmmmm.... How many Presidential folk from down-South-America-way have died via spooky air travel?

I can understand why Evo might be a little pissed.

Carry on.

[Pholus]

21. To see the ACTUAL flight path, not the diagram showing the location of two of Moscow's airports....

Try http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/fab-001

It has a very nice playback feature that lets you watch the flight.

I expect the link will expire at some point Based on the listed flights for the plane I would estimate it will be gone near July 9. But for now, the image in the OP is completely bogus by comparison. The flight starts out heading south but turns West just north of Kaluga. It then flies north of Kirov on its WSW course. It continues the course over Belarus and past Vienna. It abruptly turns a near-180 near the Austria/Italy border and then flies back to Vienna.

By way of commenting on this. How can you be so sure of your proof if you missed SUCH a basic fact from the original article? Sloppy stenography.

[HooptieWagon]

27. Yes. Alleged "flight path" in OP is an obvious fake.

Its obvious at first glance. Epic fail.

[Pholus]

30. When the required conclusion is "BULLSHIT" the actual facts might even get in the way.

The graphic is in the atlanticwire article and ndicates which airport Morales took off from versus which airport Snowden is holed up in.

But even a cursory reading of the article to glean this BASIC fact appears to be too much to ask here.

[PoliticAverse]

24. Did you get the memo ? That talking point is 'inoperative'...

The French apologized for the denial of airspace.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23174874

Ministry spokesman Philippe Lalliot said: "The foreign minister called his Bolivian counterpart to tell him
about France's regrets after the incident caused by the late confirmation of permission for President Morales'
plane to fly over territory."

See post #11 and 21 in this thread for additional refutation.

[Kurovski]

26. KittyRumpus does another flyover. (nt)

[Scootaloo]

34. So it's only 30 miles from Moscow to Austria, flying north?

I don't know if you think we're stupid, or if someone thinks you're stupid, but... that's stupid.

[HooptieWagon]

39. stupid is as stupid does.

Looks like the "flight path" was a GPS plot of a car driving on the highway.

[LondonReign2]

44. The sad part is

THEY WON'T EVEN BE EMBARRASSED BY THIS

[flamingdem]

35. K&R

[LondonReign2]

40. Oh my goodness

You guys are killing me here!

Its like when Freepers were K&Ring the story about Saddam's balsa wood "drones". Remember those?

[morningfog]

42. They must have everyone with updates that nullify their talking points on ignore.

[flamingdem]

63. You seem completely unable to engage in civil forum discourse

n/t

[morningfog]

68. Put me on ignore.

Alert on that which is contrary to community standards. It isn't my fault that people post ridiculousness that is readily refuted.

[bigtree]

207. tell 'em, flamingdem

. . . imagine the kind of community which treats their neighbor with that DU brand of disdain and arrogance. The only thing which perpetuates that type of derisive rhetoric is a mob. Such delusion to imagine that these same backslapping demagogues won't, eventually, simply eat each other alive based on their own divisive logic and attitude and the isolation that exclusive attitude invites. Just a matter of time.

Effective politics is about building coalitions, not tearing down and dividing each other among ourselves.

[flamingdem]

209. Great points! And as George says..

“Every action done in company ought to be with some sign of respect to those that are present.” ~ George Washington

Happy 4th of July bt!!

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

73. Too funny

But probably true, not to mention being in snark frenzy mode, you don't have the self control nor presence of mind to stop and think, let alone look around.

[flamingdem]

64. Do you actually have something to say?

n/t

[LondonReign2]

140. Yes

The fact that you are willing to K&R this epically bad piece of evidence long after it has been debunked is, how shall we say, extremely embarrassing. It truly goes to credibility.

Could you honestly say you'd be willing to jump on such an obviously false excuse, after several countries have confirmed they denied airspace, if the President was a Republican?

[Douglas Carpenter]

38. Snowden case: France apologises to Bolivia over plane row

Source: BBC

France has apologised to Bolivia for refusing to allow President Evo Morales' jet into its airspace, blaming "conflicting information".

Bolivia accused France, Italy, Spain and Portugal of blocking the plane.

It said some wrongly believed US fugitive Edward Snowden was on board.

Speaking in Berlin, French President Francois Hollande said he granted permission as soon as he knew it was Mr Morales' plane.

President Morales was flying back to Bolivia from Moscow when the plane was forced to stop in Vienna.

Angry reactions

The French foreign ministry issued a statement on the incident.

Ministry spokesman Philippe Lalliot said: "The foreign minister called his Bolivian counterpart to tell him about France's regrets after the incident caused by the late confirmation of permission for President Morales' plane to fly over territory."


Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23174874

[Art_from_Ark]

43. That's not a flight path-- it's a road map

that shows a road route

[LondonReign2]

45. Because Snowden was in the car!

Duh!

[Scootaloo]

52. But who was phone?!

[QC]

48. !

[Art_from_Ark]

51. So THAT was the Bolivian president's plane

The road route makes sense now

[Tx4obama]

109. LOL :) n/t

[bananas]

114. DUZY!

[malaise]

128. ROFL

DUzy

[nashville_brook]

168. best post ever.

[ctsnowman]

190. lol

[freshwest]

210. Oh, man, another traffic jam on a rural highway... What a bummer that is.

[HooptieWagon]

50. I can't recall a bigger epic fail on DU. nt

[KittyWampus]

53. FFS, it shows the countries the plane flew over.

[Art_from_Ark]

57. Your map shows the Moscow area

A tiny bit of Russia. One country.

[cherokeeprogressive]

58. You sure about that? I can't find Poland or the Czech Republic ANYWHERE on that map... n/t

[HooptieWagon]

59. No it doesn't. It shows Moscows two airports.

That map shows the 20 mile radius around Moscow. The "flight path" is the route from one airport to the other by car. Austria is about 1500 miles to the WSW. It is not on the map. Neither is Belarus or Poland.

[Zorra]

60. Sweeeet! I get it! This is like one of those 11 dimensional chess things, right? nt

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

76. bwahahahaha

What a train wreck

[temmer]

91. pffffffffffffff.....nt

[nashville_brook]

166. map reading skills could use a refresher.

seriously hope you use a navigator with turn-by-turn to get around town.

[ohheckyeah]

196. Proceed, governor.

[suffragette]

55. So the cars driving in Russia were fine and not prevented from crossing French airspace

But France's apology makes it clear that the Bolivian account was accurate and their plane was not allowed.

[leftstreet]

67. In Soviet Russia, car drives YOU!

This thread is hilarious

[suffragette]

86. But only in a circle around Moscow!

Loop de loop de loop de loop!

[boston bean]

231. That sounds French!

Hmmmmmmmmmmm....

[suffragette]

233. And some Russian drivers may speak French

Or enjoy the occasional cafe au lait while driving.

[boston bean]

234. Yeah but what beverages do they serve on re routed planes?

That is the nagging question.

[suffragette]

235. Ambassador coffee , of course

http://www.ambassadorcoffee.com/ocs/service.htm

Served (or attempted so) by leading neocon ambassadors the world over.*

*in Austria, a free coffee chat with their option of neocon ambassador is included at no charge. Also, free stopovers (at the discretion of officials)!

[neverforget]

165. almost like the Bomb the Moon threads

but for realz

[Art_from_Ark]

70. Thank goodness that was cleared up

It could have caused another international incident if Russian drivers had been denied access to French airspace

[suffragette]

88. The map makes it all so clear

[Art_from_Ark]

215. On second thought, have you ever seen those Russian car crash videos?

The way they drive, Russian drivers should be banned from all countries' airspace

[Quantess]

225. Here's video proof it happened!

[Art_from_Ark]

229. LOL

I wonder how many Russians knew that Morales was in that plane?

[frylock]

49. you're fucking shitting me, right?

right?

[Scootaloo]

54. It's as if millions of people facepalmed in awe, and were suddenly ROFL-ing

Last edited Thu Jul 4, 2013, 07:46 AM - Edit history (1)

I fear something terribly dumb has happened

[frylock]

56. i just spit pale ale all over my phone

[Bonobo]

71. Priceless! nt

[TM99]

112. Well done!

[truebluegreen]

129. DUzy!

[DirkGently]

169. CLASSIC!

[nashville_brook]

170. causing a great disturbance in The Force

i mean the BoG

[winter is coming]

195. I sense a great disturbance in the Farce. n/t

[pa28]

72. I thought I'd witnessed the most absurd post in DU history earlier today.

I was wrong.

[frylock]

74. it's positively surreal

[pa28]

84. No. No. I get it now.

This is performance art. The OP is kind of genius and we'll all laugh about it later.

[SwampG8r]

232. later?

now later forever
if laughter is the best medicine this OP is the friggin mayo clinic!

[Aerows]

236. Heck, I've linked to it a few times

for those who forgot it, I think it is time to let it shine .

[HooptieWagon]

61. With Morales driving his plane on Moscow highways....

...now I see why the French wouldn't let him in.

[QC]

62. Yep.

[leftstreet]

69. stop

[pa28]

65. Please explain the actual flight path you've presented.

It shows the origination point on the outskirts of Moscow and the end point on . . . the outskirts of Moscow.

Please explain the French apology for denying permission to their airspace. Please proceed!

[HardTimes99]

117. Well, you see, there was this French guy named Napoleon and he almost

made it to the outskirts of Moscow.

See, France\Russia???



OMG, I thought I had seen it all. I was going to put this OP on Ignore for obvious stupidity but I think I'll keep it just for comic relief.

[nashville_brook]

173. this is why i don't use ignore.

[HardTimes99]

176. The temptation to riff is irresistable. If only Napoleon had used Google Maps. "A map,

a map, my kingdom for a map!"

[nashville_brook]

178. :) the is the best thread ever

[Enrique]

66. too many U.S. Americans don't have maps

and such as

[bravenak]

80. You went there!

[suffragette]

82. I'm laughing so hard I can't even find the spray smilie

Wait, there he is.

[HangOnKids]

101. The Iraq

Thanks for the beauty queen drop out reference!

[bananas]

115. DUZY!

[woo me with science]

134. Okay, I *have* to post it now.

[Aerows]

141. DUzy

OMG I nearly fell out of my chair laughing!

[JDPriestly]

75. Why would Bolivia lie?

Why would the Austrian Interior Minister lie?

Here is a translation of a report I read in Der Standard that was apparently written either while Morales was still sitting in the Schwechat, Wien airport or shortly before he left:

I'm going to shorten this. Interior Minister, Johanna Miki-Leitner (Volks-Partei -- conservative Christian Party) said in the Austria 1 morning journal that if Snowden had been found on board (Morales' plane), it would have come to a routine asylum procedure in Austria. . . . . . Whether it would be successful, the Minister did not want to say. She did not want to interfere in the decision of the authorities and an independent court. Basically, a request for asylum in Austria must be filed within a country and that is so also in Austria. A request on behalf of Snowden through the Russian embassy in Moscow is therefore not effective. An exception from this policy is for the Minister not an option: "There are clear legal rules."

Mikl-Leitner: Österreich hat keine Angst vor den USA

Innenministerin Johanna Mikl-Leitner (ÖVP) sagte im Ö1-Morgenjournal, dass es, hätte sich Snowden an Bord befunden, zu einem regulären Asylverfahren in Österreich gekommen wäre. Ein solches Verfahren beginne mit der Feststellung der Identität der Person und einem Erstgespräch mit der Asylbehörde. Ob ein solches Verfahren Chancen auf Erfolg hätte, wollte die Ministerin nicht kommentieren. Sie wolle Entscheidungen von Behörden und unabhängigen Gerichten nicht vorgreifen. Grundsätzlich muss ein Antrag auf Asyl in Österreich immer im Inland - also in Österreich - gestellt werden. Der Antrag von Snowden über die russische Botschaft in Moskau ist deswegen nicht gültig. Ein Abrücken von dieser Position ist für die Ministerin keine Option: "Es gibt klare gesetzliche Regelungen."

Miki-Leitner stated that Austria is not afraid of the USA as are perhaps some other European countries because Austria did not close its airspace off to Morales. The Interior Minister said further, she understands the sympathy for Snowden that a large portion of the people have since afrter all, he started an important debate about the legitimacy of the secret police (not a really good translation for Geheimdienste -- maybe intelligence agency is better, but neither is right. I am not a native speaker of German.) Miki-Leitner described the current relationship with the USA as disturbed. That is why, with Germany. a catalog of questions was prepared and given to the USA and they are pressing for answers.

Mikl-Leitner betonte, es gebe keine Angst vor den USA, wie vielleicht in anderen europäischen Ländern, denn Österreich habe schließlich seinen Luftraum für die Maschine von Morales nicht gesperrt. Die Innenministerin sagte weiter, sie verstehe die Sympathien, die Snowden von großen Teilen der Bevölkerung entgegen gebracht werden, schließlich haben er eine wichtige Debatte über die Legitimität der Geheimdienste losgetreten. Mikl-Leitner bezeichnete auch die derzeitigen Beziehungen zu den USA als gestört. Deshalb gebe es auch einen Fragenkatalog, der gemeinsam mit Deutschland erarbeitet und an die USA übergeben wurde, und auf dessen Beantwortung jetzt gedrängt werde.

http://derstandard.at/1371171373025/Morales-Flugzeug-in-Wien-zwischengelandet---Snowden-an-Bord-vermutet

This report may be pretty old by the time people read it, but it is what I found on the Der Standard Austrian newspaper at 12:52 a.m. Pacific Time, July 3, 2013.

There was a lot more. It was clear from the article that people in Austria thought that Morales had been refused the right to land in some other countries. Note this statement:

Miki-Leitner stated that Austria is not afraid of the USA as are perhaps some other European countries because Austria did not close its airspace off to Morales.

If I can find a second translation of an article that I posted, I will also post it here.

Do you speak German? You can read the Austrian newspapers if you do. They are focused on stories other than Morales now. But if events happen in a European country, it is good to read the articles from the local European newspapers if you want their side of the story. The American media is for the most part worthless. Lies and unreliable reporting. Too many of our reporters and so-called "journalists" are poorly educated.

[JimDandy]

203. Thoughtful post, JD.

Been appreciating your posting of the German articles. The OP's map, though, has become the star of this little comedy of errors thread.

[Douglas Carpenter]

77. Snowden case: France apologises to Bolivia over plane row

Source: BBC

France has apologised to Bolivia for refusing to allow President Evo Morales' jet into its airspace, blaming "conflicting information".

Bolivia accused France, Italy, Spain and Portugal of blocking the plane.

It said some wrongly believed US fugitive Edward Snowden was on board.

Speaking in Berlin, French President Francois Hollande said he granted permission as soon as he knew it was Mr Morales' plane.

President Morales was flying back to Bolivia from Moscow when the plane was forced to stop in Vienna.

Angry reactions

The French foreign ministry issued a statement on the incident.

Ministry spokesman Philippe Lalliot said: "The foreign minister called his Bolivian counterpart to tell him about France's regrets after the incident caused by the late confirmation of permission for President Morales' plane to fly over territory."


Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23174874

[DisgustipatedinCA]

79. It didn't have fuel gauge problems. It had mapping problems.

You've given a wonderful account of yourself again.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

81. That is NOT an image of the flight path...

It's an image of the 27 miles one would have to travel between the airport that the Bolivian plane departed from and the airport where Snowden is currently holed up.

HTH.

[woo me with science]

85. WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AT WAR WITH EASTASIA

This map PROVES IT!!1!

[HardTimes99]

119. Thread winner by a landslide! - nt

[ctsnowman]

191. lol Love it.

[MADem]

93. That is not an image of the flight path--though you can get that from a link in the article.

That is a representation showing the distance between where Snowden was living (at B) and where Evo's plane was parked (at A).

From the article:

The claim: Snowden could have been on the plane.

This is perhaps the easiest claim to debunk. Morales' plane, The Times notes, departed from Vnukovo Airport, which is 27 miles away and on the opposite side of Moscow from Sheremetyevo Airport where Snowden is currently living.

The people who are claiming that the map is indicative of anything more than an error on your part in terms of representing the flight path (which can be found by looking at the article and clicking on the link contained therein) are playing a gotcha on detail, not on substance. From the article, again:

According to records of the plane's flight path, it travelled from Russia into Belarus, then over Poland and the Czech Republic until it entered Austrian airspace. Midway over Austria, the plane turned west, then doubled back before landing. (You can watch the flight path http://www.flightradar24.com/2013-07-02/16:35/FAB1 in an animation here.) If it was rerouted from its original path, that only occurred once the plane was in Austria.

[DeSwiss]

94. ....

[AtheistCrusader]

97. I think we can relate this back to education, and how we are continuing to try to strive ... to ...

Bleep

Bloop

Blorp

[go west young man]

98. He probably did need to refuel...

that ring road round Moscow is a beast.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

99. I LOVE THIS THREAD!!! K&R FOR LOL FUNNY!

[Marr]

100. Stop this nonsensical bullshit.

Just stop.

[Skittles]

124. it will not stop until 2016

we're gonna have to put up with them until then

[Marr]

154. The only ones that actually get under my skin

are the ones that continue to push demonstrably false bullshit after it's been proved to be such. They just ignore citations that refute their narrative and then go re-post it somewhere else. When the only response offered is to repeat the bullshit in a new post, it really seems like propagandizing and not discussion.

[Skittles]

189. I voted for Obama twice

I like him, and I like his wife and family - but I take issue with some of his policies and actions and I am FED UP with DUers who act more like paid propagandists than true progressives. Obama himself would find some our DUers sickening.

[Hydra]

102. For your consideration...

[freshwest]

103. How dare you screw with the epic media narrative of glorious victory over the evil empire?! What?!!

Thanks, KittyWampus for bringing facts here.

Reality with a liberal bias strikes again...

[Comrade Grumpy]

104. This OP is a pathetic and embarrassing attempt at spin. Really stinky.

Getting close to an all-time DU low.

[Tx4obama]

111. The audio at the OP link proves they requested to land as a precaution due to the fuel gauge.

Control tower: Do you need any assistance?

Pilot: Not at this moment. We need to land because we cannot get a correct indication of the fuel indication so as a precaution we need to land.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2013/07/tale-re-routed-bolivian-presidents-plane-falling-apart/66838/

[markpkessinger]

126. The story here isn't why they landed in Vienna . . .

. . . nor is it whether they did or did not have permission to fly over France, Italy or Portugal. It isn't about the rerouting of the plane at all. The story here is what happened on the ground in Vienna, which facts are not in dispute.

[Tx4obama]

127. I disagree. I think all the 'facts' are relevant. Because looking at all the facts shows who's not

... who's not telling the truth.

And Morales is not telling the truth.

Morales said he was FORCED to land in Austria - that is NOT true.

See Comment #20 here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023165390#post20

His pilot requested to land in Austria due to fuel gauge problems.

[markpkessinger]

131. So Morales' plane was NOT detained . . .

. . . and the Austrian government searched it with his happy consent? Is that was you are suggesting?

Wow, that's some ostrich impersonation you have going there!

The facts of what happened on the ground in Vienna have not been disputed. Those facts don't change whether or not the detail about the permission to fly over this or that country, or the reason for the plane landing in Vienna are as originally reported or not.

I have seen denial in my day, but . . . wow.

[markpkessinger]

133. And btw . . . you still haven't answered what it was . . .

. . . that France apologized to Bolivia for.

[LondonReign2]

142. As I said upthread

They aren't even embarrassed about this thread. Instead they go merrily on long after the facts have been confirmed.

I used to argue with right wingers on the yahoo boards back when Shrub was pResident. No facts, no matter how widely reported, could sway them from their dearly held but indisputably false narratives. This is the Democratic mirror of that,

[Marr]

152. Correction-- "facts".

lol, glance upward a few posts. The word facts is in quotes, like it's an inherently suspicious word, and reality is just a matter of opinion and belief. I swear, their tone is becoming more Bush-like every day.

[Catherina]

146. It's always the same small core group trying to mislead everyone with bullshit too.

All that's missing in this OP are a dozen big blue links to the same circular #FAILs.

[Warren DeMontague]

105. "Dammmmmn Youuuu, Gooogle Maps..."

"...Damn Youuuuu!!!!"

[Douglas Carpenter]

106. Can someone please point out to me where Vienna is on this map?

I knew that Russia is enormous - I never realized that it is so big that Austria is one of the suburbs of Moscow.

[JDPriestly]

110. Here is the report in the French newspaper, Le Monde.

This article was written after Morales had arrived home in Bolivia and is now available on the French website of Le Monde.

The refusals of four European countries (France, Portugal, Spain and Italy) to open their air space followed a rumor that the computer technician, American Edward Snowden, sought by the US for espionage was aboard the presidential plane. That refusal elicted the anger of the Bolivians and a wave of protests by the South American governments.

Before quitting Moscow, where Morales attened a meeting of gas producing nations, Mister Morales said that ye would be able to approve Snowden's request for political asylum in Bolivia (as did 20 other countries, including France), if it should be received.

. . . . (Demonstrators were outside the French embassy apparently.)

In reprisal, the Bolivian Parliament is going to also demand the expulsion of the ambassadors of France, Portugal and Italy.

Le refus de quatre pays européens (France, Portugal, Espagne et Italie) d'ouvrir leur espace aérien faisait suite à une rumeur faisant état de la présence à bord de l'avion présidentiel, qui rentrait de Moscou, de l'informaticien américain Edward Snowden, recherché par les Etats-Unis pour espionnage. Un refus qui a suscité l'ire des Boliviens et une vague de protestation parmi les gouvernements sud-américains.

Avant de quitter Moscou, où il assistait à une réunion de pays producteurs de gaz naturel, M. Morales avait dit qu'il pourrait approuver la demande d'asile politique qu'a adressée M. Snowden à la Bolivie (ainsi qu'à vingt autres pays, dont la France), lorsqu'il l'aurait reçue.

. . . . (Demonstrators were outside the French embassy apparently.)

En représailles, le Parlement bolivien va en outre demander l'expulsion du pays des ambassadeurs de France, du Portugal et d'Italie.


http://www.lemonde.fr/ameriques/article/2013/07/03/une-rumeur-sur-snowden-provoque-une-crise-diplomatique-entre-paris-et-la-paz_3440849_3222.html

I would be surprised if the ambassadors are actually thrown out. I think that is just an empty threat that expresses displeasure.

It's possible that the French newspaper is wrong, but that is what it says.

Also, reprisal is a diplomatic term.

A reprisal is a limited and deliberate violation of international law to punish another sovereign state that has already broken them.[1] Reprisals in the laws of war are extremely limited, as they commonly breached the rights of civilians, an action outlawed by the Geneva Conventions. It is not to be confused with retorsions, as these constitute unfriendly acts generally permitted by international law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reprisal

The OP may be correct, but that is not what is being reported in European newspapers. Der Standard has many pictures of Morales' press conference in Vienna, Schwechat airport. The Viennese are really trying to make up for the fact that Morales had to spend so long there. The Austrian president went to the airport to meet Morales.

Morales has seems to have very little concern for protocol and appears to be a guy who likes the give and take of politics and thinks it is fun. He seems very likable from the photos of him in the Vienna airport that I have seen in Der Standard -- like just a really nice person. That's just my visual impression -- could be totally wrong.

http://derstandard.at/r4438/Cremers-Photoblog

[Democracyinkind]

116. So little time, so much fail. nt

[markpkessinger]

120. Whether or not it was denied permission to fly over France (and yes dear, it was) . . .

. . . it wouldn't change the fact that the plane was detained for something like 10 hours until Morales agreed to allow Austrian authorities to search the plane -- something they had no legal right to do, and something to which Morales did not voluntarily agree. The reason the plane landed in Vienna is a secondary point in all of this -- it is what happened on the ground in Vienna that is the story here.

[woo me with science]

122. I predict that this post

will undergo a strange and mysterious technological permutation as it passes through the internet, such that none of the authoritarians on this board will be able to see it, much less respond to it.

[Skittles]

123. I wish it was entertaining

but I am starting to suspect some kind of mental illness

[NoodleyAppendage]

121. Denial. It's not just a river in Egypt. Pathetic. n/t

J

[idwiyo]

130. Taking a screen shot of this Epic FAIL, before you delete it. Thank You for the entertainment!!!

Also big thanks to all your supporters, without their support the OP wouldn't be even half as hilarious as it is now!

[demmiblue]

132. This thread is beyond...

[Democracyinkind]

135. My take: The fuel problems were claimed in order to prevent Austria from denying landing rights.

[dipsydoodle]

136. Aside from which

the fuel gauge problem and the denial of access to airspace elsewhere may have been just coincidental.

[Democracyinkind]

137. Very well possible. nt

[djean111]

153. That's what I am thinking. Thank you.

I get it that the map we see here is not the flight path. I thought that map was at the link or something?
I don't think, though, that the Russians would have any trouble sneaking someone 27 miles to a different airport.
On the other hand, I really love the snark today.
Looks like Morales will now be on that smear list, eh?

[muriel_volestrangler]

143. Breaking - new flight plan for Morales haters:

[Catherina]

145. This is fucking embarrassing. Taking shit totally out of context for such an incredible #FAIL

Last edited Thu Jul 4, 2013, 10:00 AM - Edit history (1)

This is exactly what Putin referred to as "Lots of Pig Squealing and Very Little Fleece" Gawd, no wonder Bush was able to get so many Democrats to swallow his lies.

Sie landete gegen 23 Uhr. Kurz danach ging im Wiener Außenamt ein dringlicher Anruf ein. Am anderen Ende der Leitung: US-Botschafter William Eacho. Wie "Die Presse" erfuhr, behauptete er mit großer Bestimmtheit, dass Edward Snowden an Bord sei, der von den USA gesuchte Aufdecker jüngster Abhörskandale. Eacho habe auf eine diplomatische Note verwiesen, in der die USA die Auslieferung Snowdens verlangten.

Translated:

The plane landed about 11 pm. Shortly after that, the Vienna foreign department received a phone call. The caller was the US embassador William Echo. "Die Presse" learned that he claimed with strong firmness that Edward Snowden was onboard, the whistleblower of the recent surveillance scandals. Eacho referred to a diplomatic note requesting Snowden's extradition.


http://diepresse.com/home/politik/aussenpolitik/1426275/USA-verlangten-von-Wien-Snowdens-Auslieferung?_vl_backlink=/home/politik/aussenpolitik/1416110/index.do&direct=1416110

[Aerows]

147. This entire thread

is hilarious. The first post is a spectacular train wreck. Who could possibly mistake a map of Moscow for the flight path from Moscow to Vienna?

I mean, really.

[neverforget]

167. well Americans do suck at geography

[Aerows]

175. And don't have enough maps

and such as.

[WinkyDink]

148. Oh, right. These after-the-fact "technical glitches" are soooooo reliable (Hello, TWO 800!).

[Generic Other]

150. Remind me not to let Kitty be in charge of the map

on our epic roadtrip by plane.

[HardTimes99]

181. You are not allowed to post that while I have coffee in

my mouth!

[The Link]

151. Rec. That flight path is the smoking gun.

[DirkGently]

179. Something's definitely being smoked here.

[Marr]

155. Here's a more detailed image of the flight path.

(Since fantasy is apparently acceptable).

[HardTimes99]

183. Instant classic! My awe for your comedic skills knows no bounds - nt

[winter is coming]

188. DUzy!

(Yeah, I know the DUzies are on hiatus for a while, but you still deserve the recognition.)

[ctsnowman]

192. lol Love it.

[idwiyo]

200. For the WIN!

[bobduca]

156. That plane makes tight turns

Is it one of those self-flying google flying cars that follows roads?

I bet Paul Ryan is behind this!

[LeftyMom]

157. Guess who rec'd this thread?

Cali_Democrat
flamingdem
ucrdem
Cha
sagat
Spitfire of AT
JQCMADem
ellie
go west young man
freshwest
SaveOurDemocracy
Tx4obama
CakeGrrl
bama_blue_dot
SidDithers
bobduca

[SaveOurDemocracy]

159. It needs to be K&R'd for Epic Fail Comedy visibility.

[LeftyMom]

160. It's pretty obvious who rec'd for that reason and who lives in an alternate reality.

[nashville_brook]

163. kicked for epic fail comedy visibility h/t SaveOurDemocracy ^^

[idwiyo]

201. Ha ha ha ha ha! Classic!

[CanonRay]

161. Then why did the French government apologize?

The French foreign ministry issued a statement on the incident.

Ministry spokesman Philippe Lalliot said: "The foreign minister called his Bolivian counterpart to tell him about France's regrets after the incident caused by the late confirmation of permission for President Morales' plane to fly over (French) territory."

[DirkGently]

162. Kick for visibility of the Truthy Mapquest "flight path."

[nashville_brook]

164. DU sooper sleuth KittyWampus launches epic conspiracy theory...

has posterior region handed to her on silver platter.

will return with PROOF that Evo Morales is a alien plant.

[Bonobo]

172. Kitty has left the building! nt

[Bonobo]

174. "Did he drove or did he flew?"

[Enrique]

227. that is awesome

a DUzy that is levels deep.

[cthulu2016]

228. Sid Dithers!

[magellan]

177. Here's an actual map of the flight path

It turned back roughly 20 minutes after passing Vienna, shortly before reaching the Italian border (red line lower left corner). But it was a good 45 minutes before the plane landed at Vienna (FAB1 marker). Why? Because it was circling, waiting for landing permission.

The conversation between the pilot and Vienna ATC took place right before landing instructions were given. That won't have been the first contact the pilot had with ATC, but it's clearly the first time the pilot mentions a fuel indicator problem. This is likely what prompted Vienna ATC to clear the decks and land the Bolivian President's plane. You don't mess around when a pilot reports a technical fault; you give that plane landing priority.

So the idea that the technical fault is what caused other countries to deny the plane access is wrong twice over: the problem wasn't mentioned till just before the plane was given landing instructions at Vienna, and no ATC is going to turn away a plane that's in trouble.

[Puglover]

180. Kick!

Just because this is priceless!

[nashville_brook]

184. best thread ever. saved to Evernote. i've not laughed so hard in ages.

[Puglover]

185. I so bookmarked it!

[DirkGently]

193. ++BOOKMARKED.++

[winter is coming]

187. Hmm. I recommend you only use rental cars with the "unlimited miles" option.

You're going to need it.

[darkangel218]

226. Lmao!!!!!

[HooptieWagon]

197. Kicking this epic fail for maximum visibility. nt

and such as.

[idwiyo]

202. Kick for the Epic Fail (tm). Lets make it The Thread That Never Dies!

Last edited Thu Jul 4, 2013, 04:36 PM - Edit history (1)

[kentuck]

204. Well, they said they had "fuel gauge problems"...

Is there any reason to believe they were not telling the truth??

[bigtree]

206. only a totalitarian, authoritarian thug would claim that!

[Dr. Strange]

211. mainly because half the people I was with believed it until I explained the situation to them

with a handy map of Moscow

[Major Nikon]

212. How do you explain this at the Vienna airport...

[Starry Messenger]

213. I guess going by surface street *would* make it easier to refuel.

Kind of hard on traffic though, with an airplane jamming up the lanes.

[HooptieWagon]

216. Kicking for maximum epic fail.

OMG, I'm still laughing.

[QC]

217. kick

[LeftyMom]

230. kick

[Aerows]

237. This is an epic DU thread