If Zimmerman gets off I fail to see how a person doing this wouldn't get off as well

[dsc]

An unarmed guy leaves a gay bar and has an armed guy follow him. The second guy approaches the first guy gets in his face and calls him faggot. The first guy throws a punch and gets mad enough to try to throw some more. Second guy shoots first guy saying he feared for his life. Replace the gay guy with a woman and you get another scenario which I also can't see a conviction happening in. This gives Westboro Baptist and rapists carte blanch to target people and intimidate them.

[uppityperson]

1. second guy could throw first punch, then kill 1st guy when he thinks he is endangered

Since we will never know who threw the first punch with Zimmy/Trayvon, it doesn't matter. You can beat someone, harass someone, then kill them if you feel endangered.

[Voice for Peace]

4. YUP

what's next?

[Voice for Peace]

2. YUP

[JI7]

3. if you can get lucky with some bigots on the jury , even better

bigots who would convict where the person killed was white like in the zimmerman case may not do so because he is black.

by the same thing, you could get someone who wont convict because the person killed was gay.

of course they will try to rationalize it and say things like "but we don't know for sure" "how do we know he wasn't slammed on concrete floor 30 times" yeah, he just has a couple marks but were we there ????????

and other bs.

[Voice for Peace]

8. it's true.. the biases (in all of us) run so deep

It's impossible for people to be impartial.

The best we can hope for is smart, attentive
and fair, far-thinking and informed. Liberal
and wise, compassionate and strong. And
persuasive.

If there is at least ONE woman like that on
the jury.. I don't know what the odds are..
a conviction may be possible.

[okieinpain]

40. you forgot to say liberal a second

Time
Because if its a conservative were doomed.

[Voice for Peace]

57. I'll say it three times and click my heels together. However

There are conservatives with liberal hearts
and I know one of them well. So it's not
about politics for me, it's about humanity.

[hack89]

5. It is the lack of eyewitnesses that makes the Zimmerman prosecution so difficult

the fact that no one saw how the fight started nor witnessed the actual shooting makes reasonable doubt easy to obtain - remember that trials are always biased towards the defendant for obvious reasons.

In your example, if there are witness that saw what happened then it is unlikely they would get away with it. There would be no doubt what happened.

[Voice for Peace]

13. I'm furious that (most) everyone seems to be ignoring, or dismissive of, Rachel's testimony.

(I don't mean you hack89)

For me, her testimony was the clincher, from
the beginning.

She is the only one whose story fits with the
many discrepancies in Zimmerman's tale(s).

She is very close to being an eye witness.
Don't know what the legal precedent is but
being RIGHT THERE ON THE PHONE as Trayvon
is describing that there is a creepy guy following
him. That is huge, in my opinion.

[kudzu22]

23. She still couldn't see what happened

Who approached whom. Who threw the first punch. How bad GZ was losing. None of it. And the "creepy ass cracka" comment didn't help the state's case, either.

Bottom line is there's not enough evidence to convict, IMO. If someone had seen the whole fight, it'd be a whole different ballgame.

[Voice for Peace]

56. What if she had been there in person, but blind?

Would she have been considered an eyewitness?

I'm not trying to make a joke, I'm seriously
wondering. She was as there as anybody else
was.

She witnessed that Trayvon was being
watched, perhaps stalked by somebody who seemed
creepy and suspicious. She was concerned for
him.

She witnessed that Zimmerman suddenly
appeared behind Trayvon, after he thought
he'd lost him. This outright negates Z's
ridiculous story that Trayvon jumped out
at him.

I don't get why this isn't jawdropping testimony
in more people's minds.

[graham4anything]

26. NOT to mention-there is NO proof there even was a fight. That is a faux meme NOT coorborated

and one defense witness was forced to admit it was not true

So, there may NOT have been a fight at all.

As there is NO DNA on Mr. Martin, there was NO fight on his part.

It was a vigilante taking his gun, looking like a hunter for his prey and shooting to kill.

I believe Zim is a pathological liar, and a menace to society.

And I believe Zim will do it again if given a chance

just my opinion based on everything I have heard at the trial.

[Pelican]

51. They were just on the ground hugging perhaps?

[Voice for Peace]

55. There was probably some kind of fight

but otherwise .. preaching to the choir here.

[Scootaloo]

31. Well, according to one poster here...

The fact that she doesn't "talk like Obama" annuls whatever she may have said.

[killbotfactory]

49. so if you stalks someone, get in a scuffle, and kill them...

You should be given the benefit of the doubt, despite testimony to the contrary? Especially if you are armed, and they are not? And you are bigger than them and trained in martial arts? And the only thing that caused them to be stalked by you was their superficial appearance? And they took efforts to avoid you and you tried to follow them anyway? And that you thought they were such a societal menace that you left a car to track them down on foot? And despite telling a 911 operator that they are running away your official story is that they turned back and tried to kill you?

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

6. That's true.

I'm hoping for a conviction because an acquittal would set a horrible precedent. Anybody can be provoked into fear and anger, and I can certainly see how certain people (gay men, women, black person) could be placed in a position where they fear for their safety. It seems the Zimmerman defenders just can't put themselves in Trayvon's shoes, or the shoes of somebody who can be profiled, and intimidated. I guess certain people just don't have the right to privacy, dignity, and self-defense.

[JI7]

10. if you brought up the zimmerman case to someone and it Trayvon was a White Kid

i think most would think zimmerman was guilty. even more so if zimmerman was a black guy.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

17. True,

if Zimmerman killed a white 17 year old, most of the people who donated to his legal fund, and defend him online, would be calling for his execution.

[yardwork]

29. They wouldn't need to. Zimmerman would have been killed "while resisting arrest."

[RobinA]

60. If Trayvon

were white you wouldn't have heard of this case. There would be no legal fund. Or if Zimmerman were black.

[Voice for Peace]

18. There will need to be a new public education campaign:

NEVER STAND YOUR GROUND
IF SOMEBODY PICKS A FIGHT
COS HAVE A GUN THEY MIGHT
AND THEY CAN SHOOT YOU

[RobinA]

61. Isn't This Just

common sense? To me, neither Zimmerman nor Martin were doing much to avoid trouble. Unfortunately, one of them had a gun.

[etherealtruth]

7. I think that is the entire point

Bigots, rapists, sociopaths and various other miscreants rejoice!

[Azathoth]

9. First lesson of life, don't throw a punch if someone says something nasty

Hurt feelings don't give you legal justification to commit battery, and swinging on someone who is armed is a mistake you may not live to repeat.

The guy with the gun can only respond with deadly force if he reasonably fears for his life. If he's claiming traditional self defense and not SYG to justify the shooting, he also needs to attempt retreat if he can do so in complete safety. Of course, if the gay guy has pinned him to the ground, pummeling him and/or grabbing for his holstered gun, then he can't very well retreat in safety.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

15. And the lesson before that is,

don't be a fucking creep who gets off on stalking and harassing people on the street. I have no sympathy for people who threaten and intimidate others through their actions. Trayvon did nothing to cause anyone to suspect him of wrong doing, and if this guy is allowed to walk it would be a horrible miscarriage of justice.

Don't start shit, and there won't be shit.

[RobinA]

62. Well, To Me

the lesson is, assume the other guy is a fucking creep with a gun, because gun trumps...well, anything but another gun, and even if both guys have guns, it's only a toss-up who will win the battle.

[JVS]

20. +1

[dsc]

22. but as a gay guy who got the crap beat out of him when he didn't fight back

now I have to wonder, just what can I do. I ignored a person calling faggot and got creamed but now if I fight back I might be shot. Frankly if I had a black teen son I wouldn't let him out at night on foot.

[Azathoth]

25. Well...

You say you ignored someone and got creamed. That seems to suggest he either sucker punched you out of nowhere or else simply progressed past the point of name-calling to where he started assaulting you. In either case, once the insults gave way to physical intimidation or actual violence, you certainly had a right to do whatever it took to defend yourself. At that point, the only way he could have legally justified shooting you would have been to prove that either your response was wildly disproportionate to the threat he posed, or that he clearly and believably tried to end the fight and retreat and you wouldn't let him. Either one would have been extremely difficult for him to prove.

[JVS]

37. I would recommend that you get a gun, learn how to use it, and learn the laws about self defense.

That way you can choose to ignore them and if they start beating the crap out of you, you can get yourself out of the situation by using the gun.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

44. So gun nuts have more rights than normal people? n/t

[JVS]

47. Everyone has the same rights. A gun can be useful to make sure other people respect your rights.

It can also be useful for infringing on other people's rights. But disarming yourself definitely makes it easier for other people to infringe on your rights.

[exboyfil]

58. A 17 year old can't legally carry a gun

[yardwork]

30. There's no evidence that Martin threw any punch at all.

[Nevernose]

11. Don't forget the Fox News hue and cry:

Second Guy is just a victim of professional gay agitators! Second Guy is the true victim of bigotry! In fact, bigotry against straights is what this case is all about! First guy even told his friend that a "creepy-ass breeder" was following him, which proves he's bigoted against straights! They're trying to take your guns!

[DirkGently]

12. It could happen. It points to problems with "armed citizens"

in my opinion. Carrying a weapon gives *some* people -- stupid people, evil people -- the confidence to start trouble. I know a lot of people who want to go around armed say they're not like that, but we don't have test to show it.

"Stand Your Ground" makes it worse. A duty to retreat when you can safely do so pulls some of the safety net out from those who would start trouble, kill, and claim self-defense. It goes to whether the killer really had a choice or not.

As it stands, a "lawful" gun owner could target someone, provoke a confrontation, kill as soon as the other person responds, or even defends, and claim self-defense. If the only other witness is dead, who's to say?

Guns kill quickly, and certainly, and oftentimes with one shot. Harder to argue you kicked someone in the head or stomped on their guts repeatedly in self defense. Or stabbed them 27 times.

I think there is *an element* of those pushing to bring their guns everywhere that likes this logic. Very much.

[Liberal Veteran]

33. It is "Chekhov's gun" writ large.

"One must not put a loaded rifle on the stage if no one is thinking of firing it."

[DirkGently]

54. A very apt application of that principle.

[JI7]

14. we already had a guy in Texas who was aquitted for killing a woman because she refused to have sex

with him.

[Kablooie]

16. I hear there have already been bar fights and gang member brawls where one guy pulls out a gun...

and murders they other guy.
And these cases don't even go to trial.
If the murderer says he was scared for his life and there were no witnesses with conflicting stories, he's free to go.

That's what the Zimmerman defense is counting on.

[Nevernose]

19. Race plays a major role in those

It's pretty well documented that white people have a much easier time in self-defense cases than people of color, especially if the victim is white.

[Duckwraps]

63. For good or bad I would wager that there is a lot

of of precident and case law to support what you say.

[CakeGrrl]

21. I've been saying this from the jump about this case.

Someone posted the other day asking what kind of message would it send if Zimmerman walked?

That anyone with a gun who doesn't like something about you can pick a fight, and if you dare fight back, they'll kill you and claim self-defense.

That's going to set an ugly precedent.

[Honeycombe8]

24. You don't have a right to assault someone because they call you a name.

Didn't your Mom tell you the "sticks & stones" thing? As for "armed," how does the followee know the 1st guy is armed?

Also...there is no evidence that GZ got into TM's face or called him a name.

So your scenario is different from the GZ-TM one.

[JI7]

28. there is no evidence Trayvon assaulted Zimmerman, but we have Zimmerman on tape

using words like assholes, punks, and going on about how they get away with it.

[Honeycombe8]

59. GZ's testimony is evidence. You choose to disregard that particular evidence...

but testimony is evidence. TM is gone, though, so he can't give controverting evidence.

There is also the punched bloody broken nose that GZ had, which could be evidence that TM punched him. It's possible the jury will find that happened when GZ fell down, though.

It's critical who hit first.

But even if TM hit first, it doesn't mean GZ was legally correct in pulling out his gun. The jury may find that was criminal.

[dkf]

27. Self defense is very broad in Florida.

People who understand this shouldn't be called racists for recognizing that fact.

[Liberal Veteran]

32. By all rights, someone should be able to walk to the store without being questioned.

No matter how you slice it, if Zimmerman had minded his own business, he wouldn't be on trial and Martin would be alive.

Whether the court acquits him or not, in my eyes, he is a murderer.

[rrneck]

34. Not necessarily.

You can't start a fight and claim self defense.

[LittleBlue]

35. You can't beat people up

Or act like assault is some normal reaction to being followed. It isn't.

If someone was beating on me, I wouldn't hesitate to use lethal force to make them stop. I'm not required by law to take a beating that injures or possibly kills me.

[JI7]

36. no evidence Martin Beat anyone

[LittleBlue]

38. How do you explain his injuries?

And besides, regardless of what happened in the Zimmerman incident, I am NOT required to take a beating. The law doesn't work that way.

If I have a knife or a gun, you can sure as hell expect me to use them. If someone is stalking you, you don't get a freebie beatdown.

[JI7]

39. probably fell down, he claimed his head was slammed on concrete like 30 tmes

yet there is nothing to show that happened.

[LittleBlue]

41. Fell down?

Do you really believe that?





There is simply no evidence to suggest he slammed his own head against the pavement.

[JI7]

43. no evidence to show his head was slammed 30 times on concrete floor

[LittleBlue]

46. Okay, I don't know how many times his

head was slammed. No clue.

But I do know that those injuries cannot be caused by falling. He would have to fall backward, cause multiple lacerations on the back of his head, then get up and fall forward to break his nose.

The easiest explanation here is that it was a fight.

[JVS]

42. Your story is not consistent with all the witnesses who testified about a struggle.

How does slipping on pavement become grappling with TM on the sidewalk? Or are you telling us that Trayvon jumped onto him after he slipped and fell down?

[JI7]

45. it was dark , witnesses even changed their story at times

[JVS]

48. But all of the witnesses agree on there being a struggle on the ground, and the ballistics...

indicate that Trayvon was right above Zimmerman.

[Pelican]

53. Do you realize how desperate that sounds?

To deny that there was ever even a conflict....

Just be honest ffs...

[ileus]

50. Stay calm and don't go to bars.

Also be sure to train with your EDC.

[tblue]

52. I am nonviolent but

sometimes I wish I was the type to exact revenge in kind. I wish I could give these gun lovers a taste of their own medicine. Not to harm them--just to make them feel that utter fear and helplessness they want to instill in everyone else.

What the hell kind of country is this?