On the Eve of Independence Day, I am astounded to read these words . . .

[markpkessinger]

. . . written concerning Morales' plane, on a primarily American, let alone Democratic(!), site:

If he had nothing to hide , why not let the plane be inspected ; it would make him look good if nothing suspicious is found '

I've not provided a link to the post because it isn't my intention to single someone out like that. I am posting it merely as an example of the naked, unvarnished authoritarianism we have been seeing of late. Truly appalling.

[RainDog]

1. It's revolting

And it follows with name calling, race baiting, and so much regurgitated bullshit that my ignore list has doubled.

Those who have posted this vile crap do not deserve to be read here.

[Mojorabbit]

20. I try my best to not put people on ignore but starting last night

I am starting to do so. Life is too short. These people care nothing for Democracy and they are not looking for an honest debate.

[RainDog]

39. I had to

I was so disgusted with the bullshit, I knew I would say something I would regret.

The worst part, imo, was when anyone who didn't follow the party line was labeled a racist.

It was like watching the Democratic version of a right-wing hatefest on DU.

actually, my ignore list has at least tripled since this whole thing started.

If I knew who was claiming to be the voice of Democrats and saw what they were saying, I would really have a hard time voting simply because I don't want to be associated with people who would do the vile smearing that's gone on here.

...and I don't even know what I think about Snowden and this whole mess.

I just know bullshit when I smell it.

[Volaris]

78. I kind of tend to agree with you on not knowing what to think thus far...

but I think I think this:

What he did, I think, can be classified as an act of Civil Disobedience, against a Law or set of Laws that he believes to be unnecessary, unconstitutional, or just plain dumb. Part and parcel to the idea of Civil Disobedience, is the KNOWING that you are breaking the law, and that, therefore, the State has every right to place you under arrest. Now, it seems like the noble thing to do would have been just to have been at home when the Feds came looking for him, so that he could begin the process of exercising his Rights to Due Process, Fair and Impartial Trial by a Jury of his Peers, etc. BUT...given that Bradley Manning has been sitting in a hole for basically this whole time, I honestly can't say that I believe, at this point, that that whole Due Process thing is working as intended, soooooo...

I DO know that I feel like whatever happens to Snowden as a matter of Law and it's relationship to the Executive Branch, there is now a meta-issue out in the Public in a way that wasn't out there before, and in ANYTHING that can call itself a Government beholden to the Will of THE PEOPLE, and built on the merits of righteous and rigorous debate, that HAS to be a Good Thing...right??

This is my first post really on the subject, as I wanted to take some time and consider my thoughts before opening my mouth. As always, I welcome different thought avenues, different conclusions, and differing opinions on the subject. I believe it makes my own thought processes better, more nuanced, SHARPER (see more dangerous, which, really, isn't that the point?), and therefore, more useful.

[go west young man]

92. If it helps this is who Snowden worked for...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlyle_Group He didn't directly work for the US gov't. His employer had a contract with them. His employer also helped implement the Iraq War and most of the damage to the USA in the last decade.

[RainDog]

133. Thanks for your post

I share a lot of your opinions on this matter.

At the same time, I don't share the opinion of those who talk about Obama as the worst president. That, to me, is a ridiculous statement. Hyperbole and a half doesn't work to influence the opinion of most people. The job is incredibly difficult and anyone who offers up criticism should have the opportunity to experience it, or at least try to find some empathy for the difficulty.

No one in govt. is "pure," No one can operate solely upon his or her own wishes. That's just not the way it is.

As I've said before, there are bureaucracies in the U.S. govt. that operate as their own fiefdoms - and intel is one of them. They can manipulate and do, I am pretty sure, based upon past incidents, the thinking of both the executive and the legislature on these issues - but we all have to live in this world with some reliance upon trusted sources. But those sources can and do have their own agendas and their own biases.

I don't think everyone within those agencies is all good or bad. Not everything they do is all good or bad.

Beyond Snowden, there is the issue of harm to people who are trying to keep the best interests of national security in place - the Valerie Plames - who may be impacted by this moment.

We're all outside the room as this issue unfolds. There's a lot of speculation and not a lot of confirmation.

One of my biggest concerns about this issue is the way the NSA, etc. can and will be and is used to stifle good dissent - dissent that brings about change for the better for people.

Our history shows us that these positive changes don't originate within the power structure. These good changes are always set in motion by those outside the allowable political discourse of the time.

I don't like the privatization of intel work any more than I liked private contractors (Blackwater most especially) running military operations. I think this set up will be used against liberal positions, liberal candidates, and the left that is further left than any politician can be and be elected in the U.S. (and this left is also the faction that brings those positive changes, mentioned above, that begin outside of the political structure.)

We have the most extremist Republican Party in history at this time. The legislation, and the lack of the same, from them is horrid. They are, imo, truly bent on destroying civil society by their actions.

I don't want them to have all the apparatus for a police state at their beck and call when they have gerrymandered the House into something that in no way represents the people of this nation - Republicans have subverted the very intent of the House, to be the most responsive to the electorate, because the electorate is far, far more liberal.

So, if we were to have another Supreme Court coup or whatever other b.s. some political hack thinks up to steal the presidency - what protection do we have against someone in that case? As we saw with Bush and Cheney - not much protection at all - as they set about destroying Constitutional protections for citizens.

We're still, as a nation, trying to walk back from that ledge.

So, that history and knowledge of actions by the right wing in this nation inclines me to distrust the way power has dealt with this issue. Most of all, I hope the moment provides an entry to examine policies that need to be revised after the overreach of the Bush era.

[gholtron]

115. Well the labeling goes both ways

I tried to have a constructive honest debate about this NSA/ Snowden issues. And because I didn't believe this guy is a hero and didn't expose anything new, I was labeled a fascist, a fool, an Obama apologist.

[RainDog]

134. that's true

and I don't think that serves any of us who want to try to understand this issue.

what I have said, and this is my opinion on other issues, not just this one, is that those who align with power have a greater responsibility to deal with such moments with more... grace. I'll use that for lack of a better word.

Someone on this board speaking from anger who is outside of the allowable political position is not speaking from a position of power. Unless those people organize to accomplish something.

But, of course, people with whom they argue don't always see those positions in that way. Some people think the negative reactions are part of some campaign to undermine the president and Democrats.

I can understand why they might think this. However, when people hold consistent positions, no matter which party is in power, it's more likely the anger is toward the entire structure of power, not one person or one party.

That's how I try to evaluate things that are said here.

[Aerows]

46. I added three people

last night just for my own sanity because they were about to make me lose it. No need for me to have posts hidden because there are people on DU that are incapable of having a conversation that is about policy and not personality. Frankly, that disgusts me as much as did with the right wingers fawning over Bush when he was in the wrong.

[iemitsu]

76. I suspect that some of the fawners, you see here,

are the same fawners you saw during Bush's reign of terror.

[HangOnKids]

95. Bingo

They think it is clever to pretend to be Democrats, and then stomp and whine that DU is not supporting a Democratic President. Quite transparent. Very trite and completely predictable from the boot strap crowd.

[marions ghost]

114. They do their best

to sabotage this site. That is their mission. And this topic gives them a lot of fodder. They are obvious now.

[iemitsu]

119. I suppose that trolling DU is one of the few jobs left

in this land of opportunity, that or work for the NSA.

[iemitsu]

146. I get the same sense about the origin and motivation

of the "hard line" democrats, who spend all their time policing the attitudes of the rest of us.

[Puglover]

137. I think many of them were Republicans that

hated Bush and decided to become Democrats. Unfortunately in name only.

[iemitsu]

145. Easy to see how someone could hate Bush.

You could be right.

[Roy Rolling]

55. Misunderstood

I think you understood the import of the message. I think the poster meant to imply that it would be a good thing to embarrass the US by proving they were wrong. Of course the US actions are below even despicable. And though it is demeaning to comply with a search, the poster made an arguably valid point that the embarrassment of proving the US wrong has value in the court of public opinion. We may disagree, but the poster has the right to the opinion.

[markpkessinger]

58. If that was the poster's intent, then I'm very glad to hear it . . .

. . . but that reading of it was certainly not obvious or clearly apparent.

[Luminous Animal]

63. Morales has embarassed the U.S. without relinquishing his rights. Win win for Morales. Lose lose for

Obama. And I don't relish that scenario. At all.

[JDPriestly]

135. I agree. Morales won that one hands down. He is even cooler under fire than Obama.

And that is saying a lot. This "war" is being fought through diplomacy but on the front pages of the world's newspapers.

A Bolivian online newspaper:

Yesterday's edition:

Bolivia is protesting the refusals of France, Portugal, Spain and Italy to allow President Morales entry into their air space at the United Nations.

http://www.boliviaentusmanos.com/noticias/bolivia/73256/bolivia-denuncia-ante-onu-a-espana-portugal-francia-e-italia-por-violacion-de-derechos-de-morales.html

Embarrassing for the US.

Today's edition:

Huge crowds greeted President Morales upon his arrival in Bolivia.

http://www.boliviaentusmanos.com/noticias/bolivia/73294/miles-reciben-a-morales-en-aeropuerto-de-el-alto.html

Also in today's edition:

France is apologizing. They refused entry into their air space of President Morales' plane because they thought it was Snowden on board. Once they were sure it was Morales, they gave him permission to enter their air space. (Someone who can translate Spanish more accurately than I, please correct me if I am misunderstanding this article.)

El comunicado oficial se conoció después de que el presidente Hollande afirmara desde Berlín que se autorizó sobrevolar el espacio aéreo de Francia al avión en que viajaba Morales en cuanto se aclaró que era este quien viajaba en el aparato y no el extécnico de la CIA, Edward Snowden.

Había "informaciones contradictorias" acerca de quién iba en el avión, indicó Hollande al término de la denominada Conferencia para el empleo juvenil, convocada por la canciller Angela Merkel.

En cuanto se aclaró que quien viajaba en el avión era "el presidente de Bolivia", prosiguió, "dimos la autorización" para sobrevolar el espacio aéreo francés.

Hollande hizo esta declaración al ser preguntado sobre los motivos que llevaron a negar la autorización a sobrevolar Francia al avión del presidente boliviano, que pasó más de 13 horas retenido en Viena, lo que ha causado una grave crisis tanto con Bolivia como con la mayoría de países de América Latina.

http://www.boliviaentusmanos.com/noticias/bolivia/73249/francia-lamenta-el-contratiempo-con-el-vuelo-de-evo-morales.html

[sulphurdunn]

64. The plane carried

a head of state. it had diplomatic immunity. Period. If the let 'em search it to embarrass the US argument is valid for the PM of Bolivia it must be equally valid when applied the President of the United States.

[RainDog]

66. Would that same "strategy" be applied to the American President?

I doubt it.

I mean, honestly - do you think any Democrat (big D to mean party pol kinda person) would be okay with another nation telling Air Force One the plane would be searched? Fuck no. We both know that's the reality.

But my post was about this entire moment, really.

It has, imo, been a low point for DU.

so many people I put on ignore have very low post counts, but they came on to this site and immediately starting bashing others here, race baiting, insulting...

I've known people as members of DU here for many years, tho I have kept my distance for the most part. but I know some people here irl, too. I don't always agree with them, the ones I know in real time or DU time, or they with me, but I've never felt like they would stoop to some of the crap that we've seen here since this incident because of a disagreement.

Some asshole claimed I was posting in support of Greenwald when the jerk made the claim that anyone who supported the right to a fair trial/lawyer was an Obama hater. How fucking stupid can you get if you can't even acknowledge that constitutional rights are the entire fucking reason we have a political system in the first place?

whatever. then last night, someone was posting about how whites hadn't been loyal to Obama and minorities saved the world. Completing ignoring the reality of how votes are counted via the electoral college, or the fact that the majority of people who voted for Obama were white people, or the fact that a percentage of a small group voting in one way in a place where their votes don't get counted for the ballot was somehow more important than people who live in areas with coalitions among traditional democratic voters. Or the fact that Obama got more white votes than Carter or Mondale, etc. etc.

why post that unless you're stupid or you want to drive a wedge between democrats? I still don't know which is it with that person.

Before that women were attacking Snowden's girlfriend because she's a dancer. Well, actually, they attacked her because she was associated with Snowden. Nasty, slimy women do that sort of shit. Not women I want to stand with, politically. It was like Limbaugh's attack on Sandra Fluke, calling her a slut - except Snowden's girlfriend never chose to be part of any political issue.

So, like I said... to keep from hating the Democratic Party, I just have to ignore some people who claim to speak for it.

[Swagman]

74. usually easy to spot the enemy outside...

not so easy to spot the enemy inside.

And there may have been years spent in preparing the groundwork..1000s of posts to build credibility giving them the capacity to subtly divert the conversation.

Maybe I am just paranoid but the Snowden Revelations have made me so.

[iemitsu]

79. Its not paranoia.

Your observations are correct.

[HangOnKids]

96. There You Go Making Sense Again

I beg to differ on the subtle part, many are overtly blatant.

[iemitsu]

148. Both types flourish here.

[TheMadMonk]

86. NO IT WOULD NOT. It would establish an unacceptable...

precedent.

I don't have to look to take a good guess at who wrote that BS, and no no one is entitled to that particular opinion. The law/constitution may allow them to express it, but they have no more right to the opinion than a misogynist has to the belief that women are property.

That particular opinion when parsed, boils down to "No one deserves privacy." or you have no legitimate reason to object to my accessing the webcam on your computer or pressing my nose up against your bedroom window.

[chimpymustgo]

116. And then there's: "I trust Obama; he's smarter than me!" Silliness or subversion?

There are truly a bunch of fools on this board.

[TheMadMonk]

123. Methinks they've invested so much in Obama, that...

...they now can't admit how wrong they were.

It's a kind of machismo, like where gangbangers feel that it's better to take a bullet than back down/walk away.

[jaysunb]

144. Wrong about what ????

Please enlighten....

[TheMadMonk]

147. Hope & Change. The way he was going to lead the US out...

...of the Bush Era.

The promises of: transparency in government; to reign in big business and Wall Street; To bring security to the most vulnerable; To back off on medicinal pot;

The same suspects pop up time and time again: To tell us how "He's doing the best he can" when there's no visible evidence he's doing anything at all; To tell us that that matter is not that important, but "Hey shiny shiny" we've got the most comprehensive gay rights since the days of Sparta. Don't get me wrong, civil rights for the differently gendered are a huge and wonderful thing, but what the SC gave to gays with one hand it took from black people with the other.

[spooky3]

139. We'll never know for sure, but I disagree with you about "misunderstanding." The poster

said "it would be good *for him*...", implying good for Morales. Had s/he meant that s/he thought it would be good to embarrass the US, I'm not sure why s/he would have thought so; and, I think s/he would have said that outright. It's unclear to me how it is "good" for one leader to "embarrass" another.

I think he meant something far simpler, which is that it was good for Morales to prove that he was innocent to the US. That is objectionable for the reasons that many other posters on this thread have pointed out.

[davidpdx]

107. The sick thing is...

the name calling and regurgitated BS is going on from both sides. I don't condone the race baiting. That is just playing wrong. Then again so is the name calling and regurgitation of the same thing over and over again that is taking place.

I have a very mixed feeling about the whole situation. I am not happy with the policies that are in place and how little knowledge we have about them, the fact that we contracted out all of this stuff, and the people doing it may not have had the proper security clearances due to people not doing their job. At the same time I am concerned what the consequences of the leaked information will be, as I believe there will be some (diplomatic relations, security, etc.). Anyone that things there are none is kidding themselves.

My opinion different on depending on which part of the whole thing you are talking about.

Questions that haven't been answered in my opinion:

How through of a background check was done on Snowden?
How through of a background check was done on other contract employees?
How much more information does he have? (according to him a lot, but do we really know for sure?)

Specifically on the incident with the plane:

Who claimed they knew Snowden was on board?
How can anyone believe he was one board when they (the president of Bolivia and Snowden) were at two separate airports?
Was the US directly involved in ground the plane or did the European countries make the decision independently based on information they received (other than from the US)?
If the information came from the US, how did they get it?

I don't see many people asking these questions, just assuming they have the answers.

As for Snowden, I don't feel he's a hero and I think he knew before hand (or had a good idea) what was going to happen once he released in the information. If he chose to leak the information and knew the consequences I don't think there is much leeway to advocate for him to get no punishment.

What I'd like to see happen now that this is out in the open is for Snowden and The Guardian to stop publishing the information and hand it over (once he arrives) in exchange for him to go to whichever country gives him asylum. I don't think he'd take that deal (neither would The Guardian).

[kestrel91316]

2. + 1 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000

[Aerows]

47. Can you square that for me?

[whopis01]

120. Sure

[phone] 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000

And the great thing is that would have been the same answer even if the other poster had unrec'ed it....

[WinkyDink]

3. Sovereignty is only for the USA! USA! USA!

[iemitsu]

81. Unless we have signed a trade agreement that nullifies

our sovereignty, as we did with NAFTA, GATT, and so many others since the end of the 80s.
The WTO has sovereignty the USA does not.

[WinkyDink]

112. Heh. Sadly, an excellent point.

[iemitsu]

122. Yes, sad isn't it?

[hobbit709]

4. I bet it's one of those who would gladly trade liberty for security.

[TheMadMonk]

88. Yup. My liberty for his security. /nt

[Warren Stupidity]

5. At this point they've dropped any pretense of "discussion".

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

32. When you ask direct questions they either don't respond, snark or attack with the most ludicrous

vicious, insults, and lies it leaves you gob-smacked!

[BrotherIvan]

82. They are the BOrG

Discussion is futile

[MuseRider]

6. Anymore I seem to come here for

the train wrecks.

I, like you, am astonished and I am embarrassed and concerned and taken aback. The large numbers of those posting things like this have put me into the mode of not posting because my BP and my brain cannot any longer deal with this. AND it hurts to realize that my fellow citizens feel so strongly about party or a president or that we are number 1 that they can't seem to see the danger. They must have stopped teaching history or this could not happen.

So I watch, comment a little and then just leave shaking my head.

[840high]

53. + a million

[lunasun]

69. "astonished and I am embarrassed and concerned and taken a back"- yes

Some guesses confirmed as of late too

[tpsbmam]

125. History and critical thinking. nt

[idwiyo]

7. K&R Its revolting. Not a slightest idea how can any say something like that.

[sibelian]

8. Yeah, well, after the last 2 weeks nothing would surprise me any more.

It's clear that this site is not at all what I had come to believe it was.

[quinnox]

9. And I'm sure they would have the same reaction if Air Force One was stopped and searched by

a foreign government. Yea, right. You just have to shake your head in wonder at those types.

[avebury]

23. Yup! nt

[Swagman]

75. No-one would DARE stop Air Force One and try to get between that plane and the

Secret Service would take more courage than I have.
That is the reality.

But hey, who is this Morales chap?

[DirkGently]

10. +++ This is how evil happens. People think it's okay when "we" do it. n/t

[Zorra]

11. Our country hasn't seen anything like this since McCarthy's Red Scare.

And no, oh ye history challenged conservative authoritarians, I am not referring to Eugene McCarthy's campaign for President.

[markpkessinger]

13. Exactly . . .

. . . The smear campaigns, the guilt-by-association tactics, the "if you have nothing to hide . . ." mindset -- all of it is indeed redolent of the McCarthy era.

[RainDog]

41. It reminds me of all those cautionary tales about how fascism takes over

that's what it reminded me of.

The Nazis ascended to power with the help of the mainstream Weimar govt. and its opposition to socialists and communists.

The Weimar called out the brown shirts to go to the homes of socialists and communists and beat them up long before Germany descended into outright fascism.

[lunasun]

70. It cant happen here one always thinks

[TheMadMonk]

89. I think the Red Scare got left in the dust long ago.

If not when the PATRIOT act was passed, then definitely when it was renewed under Obama.

[tomp]

118. well, we haven't seen anything like that for a while either. nt

[forestpath]

12. K&R

[Dragonfli]

14. I have been watching, wondering how a community can change so much as to become that which we all

once railed against. I was perhaps naive to think it was about Ideals these past several years. It was for some perhaps, the few remaining constants besides myself that were posting about the creeping rot that was festering in our country and given a face in Bush. We sought to fight the rot itself not only the party infested with it, now our party is a confirmed victim of the same rot and so many are revealed as having been hypocrites that merely pretended it was the rot they sought to fight, it was the power being in the hands of the other party they truly fought against. They embrace now what they once claimed to be against, posting in favor of the rot they once posted against and it disgusts me.

To those disingenuous hypocrites it was always about what they perceive to be a sporting event, a team cheerleading squad of sorts.

To others it has always been about truth, about liberty, about stopping corporate fascism and neocon warmongering. It was about human rights, and poverty and a country reclaiming the greatness of shared prosperity, none of those things matter to posters like you highlighted, they are truly the useful idiots of a system of control designed to enrich the few and make the rest powerless to fight against them.

I continue to observe but post less as I have said it all before only now to a crowd that reminds me of bushbots on the old AOL forums. I never cared much to argue the idiots there and have not grown any fonder of arguing similar idiots here. Perhaps I should if only to have just one more quixotic adventure in a land of fascist windmills..

[JEB]

67. Keep posting, please.

I nearly always fine your posts thoughtful and insightful.

[carolinayellowdog]

110. Enantiodromia is Carl Jung's term for it

from the Wikipedia entry:

in Jungian terms, a thing psychically transmogrifies into its Shadow opposite, in the repression of psychic forces that are thereby cathected into something powerful and threatening.

[GoneFishin]

111. Great post. Thanks.

[scarletwoman]

15. The mindset that statement reflects is utterly astounding to me. I can't imagine thinking like that.

But DU is absolutely swarming with people of that ilk.

And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. Matthew 10:36

Let me hasten to add that I only know that quote due to its usage by a protagonist in a series of mystery novels, Chief Inspector Gamache of the Quebec Surete. It just seemed apt here.

[suffragette]

44. It is appalling

And it's surprising how many times I've seen that or similar lately. I think the effect is magnified by the swarming onto a thread and making numerous posts on it. It makes it seem like there are more people of that mindset than there are in actual numbers. It's an authoritarian mindset and tactic. And it's beyond sad to see it here.

[LondonReign2]

72. Take heart

They are indeed swarming, but it is a very small swarm. Their phrenetic activity makes them seem more numerous than they are. Judging by various polls on the subject here, they are a rather small minority.

[iemitsu]

83. There are several reasons to "take heart" even though the menacing swarm

buzzes loudly in our midst.
Planting "element of doubt" rhetoric into the discourse of one's enemy is Psy-Ops 101. A few voices sounding like many is another tried and true method or "winning hearts and minds". Both of these have become daily fodder at DU.
It is, without a doubt frustrating and demoralizing to hear the ideas of our enemies espoused by those claiming to be on our side. It is designed to make one feel alone and doubtful of one's own convictions. This is a scenario we see too much of on DU, as of late.
Individually these tactics and others employed on DU, and other liberal sites, can wear one awfully thin but it is the investment of all this chatter that ought to embolden us most.
If the powers that be did not think we were effectively figuring out some of their MO they would not make the investment to thwart our little discussions.
The trolls are here because the power elite are afraid of us.

[HangOnKids]

97. Big Kiss

Just love what you said. Especially this, "The trolls are here because the power elite are afraid of us." Thank you.

[iemitsu]

121. You are welcome, and thank you for loving my voice.

I feel much more important than I did just a minute ago.
I am sure that if DU was not such a successful "liberal" site that we would not be blessed with so many naysayers. What would be the point. The fact that they are here validates all of our concerns.

[carolinayellowdog]

126. One reason to take heart is the jury system no longer works for them

but against them-- too small a minority of DUers, posting too large a majority of posts in certain threads, to control discourse any more

[iemitsu]

151. Yes, it seems as if the "gaming of the system" is unraveling for the social engineers

among us.

[truedelphi]

143. Very nicely stated. n/t

[Safetykitten]

16. The founding fathers believed in the "If you have nothing to hide" rights.

[markpkessinger]

17. What ARE you talking about??

Can you elaborate?

The founding fathers would have taken a very dim view indeed of the mindset of, "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear."

[DisgustipatedinCA]

18. I think he is riffing on "inalienable rights" as a way to poke fun at the authoritarian set.

[markpkessinger]

22. If so, I'm relieved to hear it . . .

. . . On DU these days, without a 'sarcasm' tag it is often hard to tell!

[HardTimes99]

54. Yesterday, I felt so bad. I was posting from my Android phone and I posted a

post that said "Senator Wyden is a racist" (intending to needle those who play the race card to marginalize critics of the surveillance state). I thought I had posted a sarcasm thingy with it, but apparently it didn't post from the phone. Long story short, the post was juried out (as I suppose it should have been). I tried to message the person who was complaining to explain my screw-up but I figured he or she must have put me on Ignore at that point and didn't get to read my apology\explanation.

I've learned my lesson. No more posting sarcastic shit from my phone if I can't be certain the sarcasm tag has posted with it.

[Safetykitten]

24. Thank you.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

26. Of course. Also, an unrelated question for you:

Are you the poster who used to have the sniper kitten avatar? I always loved that.

[Safetykitten]

27. No, I never had an avatar. I remember that one though.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

29. Thanks. My mistake. n/t

[markpkessinger]

34. Apologies for misreading your intent . . .

. . . As I indicated above, these days it can be hard to distinguish irony from serious intent.

[Safetykitten]

35. No problem. I understand. A Democratic board that loves the spying. Amazing.

[markpkessinger]

36. Indeed!

Cheers!

[malaise]

19. It's effin' unAmerican n/t

[leftstreet]

21. DURec

[burnodo]

25. Everybody is guilty until proven innocent

Everybody except Barack Obama, of course

[HardTimes99]

149. NSA was wiretapping Obama, starting in 2004, acc.

to Tice (NSA whistleblower).

[Warpy]

28. Must be a recovering Republican. They're slow and it takes a while

for them to get the fact that the plane was forced to land in Austria was an outrage and the request for a search an even bigger one.

I think we can no expect similar treatment for out diplomats and elected officials abroad now that we've broken the ice.

[Honeycombe8]

30. That's how the Patriot Act got passed. With that attitude. nt

[HardTimes99]

57. You, my friend, have nailed it in 10 words! Thank you for pointing

that out. Bravo!

[Purveyor]

31. Indeed brother! It has certainly caused a telling divide on this forum alone. I'm mildly shocked

to say the least.

Godspeed to the liberty and freedom loving US of A.

[cantbeserious]

33. + 1,000,000 - Thanks For Sharing

eom

[City Lights]

37. That is extremely disturbing.

Unfortunately, it's becoming more common here of late.

[Stinky The Clown]

38. That was the stuff of Freeperville . . . . . until it wasn't.

Welcome to Loyalty Oath World.

[reusrename]

40. He's one of those brown people.

Stop and frisk is probably a good idea. Can't be too careful these days.




Just to be clear, the fact that I need to put the thingy is what's so disgusting about it.

[whatchamacallit]

42. We're a nation of cowardly assholes now n/t

[CrispyQ]

138. And tonight we're going to set off a bunch of explosives in celebration of

the land of the free and the home of the brave.

[whatchamacallit]

142. Yep

[adieu]

43. Any person who ever says

"If you don't have anything to hide…" should just off him or herself. That's never a statement made by a human being.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

45. It's sad to see that right-wing authoritarianism...

...has come to DU. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_authoritarianism

If both sides are doing it, we're fucked.

[HooptieWagon]

48. Yes. Amazing that anyone who calls themself a Democrat can argue for a Surveillence State.

Quite appalling actually. I guess we now know where good germans come from.

[TomClash]

49. +1

Suspicion always haunts the guilty mind.

[Douglas Carpenter]

50. knr

[ReRe]

51. Darlin', they don't have a clue

Doesn't matter if they are actually ignorant of history or paid trolls. Whatever they are, they don't have a clue. I always swore I wouldn't use the ignore button. I finally had to start ignoring the most obnoxious and didn't think I would see their posts anymore, and today there one of them was. I thought I wasn't supposed to see them if I had them on ignore. What's up with that?

[MrSlayer]

52. Really? You're astounded?

Still, long after the charade has been exposed, the man behind the curtain has been revealed and the horse left the barn, you're able to muster up some astonishment?

Good for you.

Independence Day is a frigging joke. This country is a sham. It's a bad joke.

[TheMadMonk]

90. You may well be right. But if we're not going to fight it...

...we might as well light the blue touch paper and leave the place to the cockroaches.

[truebluegreen]

56. Authoritarian boxes of rocks.

And like other authoritarians, impossible to reach. I've got an unbelievable number of people on ignore for an allegedly Democratic forum...

[HardTimes99]

59. Jesus, there was one OP today that was actually saluting Austria for

"grounding" (sic) Morales' plane. I couldn't fucking believe that a jury let it stand by a 3-3 vote. Un-friggin-believable.

[Scootaloo]

60. Yeah, jerking around an Indian is more of a Colombus day thing...

...And yes, I think Morales' ethnicity has a lot to do with the flippancy that DU'ers are treating this with. It's not the only thing, but it's definitely contributing.

[lunasun]

73. +1

[DeSwiss]

61. We have come full-circle.

- There's nothing left of this paradigm to discover. We're just repeating ourselves at this point......

K&R
[center][/center]

“Since mankind's dawn, a handful of oppressors have accepted the responsibility over our lives that we should have accepted for ourselves. By doing so, they took our power. By doing nothing, we gave it away. We've seen where their way leads, through camps and wars, towards the slaughterhouse.” ~ Alan Moore, V for Vendetta

[area51]

94. Love the graphic

And some idiot posted a diatribe in another thread about how people shouldn't call the republicans, or anyone else, nazis. If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck ...

The "Godwin's Law" argument shows that a person can't defend their argument and it's meant to shut discussion down.

[DeSwiss]

98. I've always thought that Godwin's Law was BS.....

...and very likely promoted by people who have sympathies that run similar to the Nazis. It always seemed to me to be a perfect means of avoiding such comparisons with someone's political views, etc. I realize that it was first being posted in an attempt at stopping people from comparing everything and everyone to Nazis, but that's stupid. Anyone who has a functioning brain should be able to realize it. And if they can't such a person wouldn't be influenced by a set of rules they never heard of except on the internet. The 90s internet at that!

- We don't need any more laws. We have way too many damned laws now.

[Democracyinkind]

100. Those people misstate Godwin's Law.

The law says nothing about the validity of such comparisons. Ignore the people that use it as if it were an argument - they're too stupid to even look up what they quote.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

62. Imagine if the Soviets had done that to Air Force One.

[Art_from_Ark]

150. Well, they kind of did that

Not to Air Force One, but they once shot down a Korean jetliner that had a US Congressman aboard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007

[Rain Mcloud]

65. American Family Radio has been all over the NSA debacle this week.

and so it re-appears here via the religious left.
I can usually predict when a bullyrag poster is going to start the spouting of bullshit on DU from listening on a know-thy-enemy basis.
After the news/opinion pieces on AFR,i will switch over to the local NPR affiliate to bring down the dangerously high blood pressure.
To listen to the TPOTD (Talking Point Of The Day)go here but keep a puke bag at hand.
Also please do not expose the elderly,infants,women who are breastfeeding or household pets to the views and opinions expressed there.
Come to think of it wear headphones to minimize the collateral damage and do your part to reduce air pollution.

[link:http://www.afa.net/radio/|

[blkmusclmachine]

68. Anybody can post on DU. Cheerleaders, apologists and sock puppets, too.

[limpyhobbler]

71. A shameful episode. nt

[emulatorloo]

77. Kick and Rec

[ucrdem]

80. If that's all you have left we're in better shape than I thought.

Happy 4th!

[sibelian]

87. ...

...






















...





























..



















.























PLONK.

[ucrdem]

99. TMI nt

[Uncle Joe]

84. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, markpkessinger.

[kardonb]

85. like that

I am the one " like that " ! And believe me , I am not a " naked , unvarnished authoritarian " ! I am , however , not a gullible believer of any cooked up , unresearched , pseudo-scandals that try to besmirch our government . Do your research first before throwing accusations around !

[Kablooie]

91. It's interesting that the NSA revelations haven't caused a pull back of authoritarianism.

Instead it seems to be moving into a bolder, more blatant, "fuck you" attitude to everyone in the world.

It's hard to picture Obama driving this.

I still believe he is essentially honest and moral but he seems to allow many areas of government the freedom to pursue their goals without his interference and that's not good.
It's like allowing a spoiled kid to do anything he wants.
A president needs to be a firm father figure but that's not Obama's strength.

[dogknob]

93. The Vichy Crowd is dug in deep here.

That's not a complaint. That's just what they do.

[BillyRibs]

101. Some Folks Just,

Don't Seem to get it!

[im1013]

102. Thank You!!!!!

[MrMickeysMom]

103. K&R

Can you believe it?



We can and will live through terrible times again unless people wake up.

[DLevine]

104. Sad, isn't it. K&R. nt

[nomorenomore08]

105. It may be that this country's political discourse is skewed so far to the right that even

many centrist/center-right folks are lumped in with liberals (or at least Democrats). Which is frankly a scary thought...

[TheKentuckian]

106. These folks aren't even center/right they are far right but just aren't open bigots,

religiously insane, or anti-government wackos. They are amoral (at best), cynical, authoritarian statist.

[Bluenorthwest]

117. One or two learned to hide their bigotry toward gay people which was at first

very open contempt and morphed into fake 'support'. Liars who put on a costume to blend into the crowd so they can pass along poison.

[YeahSureRight]

108. The majority of Americans do not pay attention to what is really going on

Politics is a sporting event to most as long as their team wins it does not matter, not even the quality of the players matters anymore just being on the right team is all that matters now.

I thought that the majority on DU paid attention to what is really going on, sadly I am mistaken.

The majority in America is happy being told what to do, believe and say now and they will support it as long as their team is in control blind support is what one gets or one gets inundated with accusations of not being part of the team or you hated the team leader or you never were part of the team in the first place.

Ignorance and paranoia runs rampant in America today and on the internet especially.

Buckle up because it is going to be a wild ride and I hope you and others are really prepared for it.

[secondvariety]

109. Everyone has

stuff they want hidden and there's nothing wrong with that. Protecting your privacy and protesting when it's violated doesn't make you Un-American.

[Jackpine Radical]

113. I didn't see the thread, but my first reaction on reading the quote

is to assume that it was snark, a parody of the sort of sheep who actually believe that "if you have nothing to hide, you needn't fear the Police State."

The context seems so over the top. But if that poser actually meant it--that we would have the right to stop & frisk the leader of another nation--Wow.

[marble falls]

124. That's not even the worst of it. There's all sorts of inhuman and undemocratic....

opinions offered up every single day on this site. Meanness, pettiness, obscenity are the order of the day especially on threads on gun control and religion by both sides of the issues. There some threads that look like they come from a teabag site.

[carolinayellowdog]

127. yep, and seeming allies on issues like Snowden and chained CPI

can turn into raging hateful monsters when the subject is getting rid of everyone south of the Potomac

[sabrina 1]

128. That is shameful! And just one of many shameful things we've been seeing here on DU

recently. It shows a depth of ignorance I thought existed only among Bush supporters.

[carolinayellowdog]

132. shameless as well

One of the divides seems to be between Americans who have traveled in other countries, have friends relatives abroad, and those who haven't. A person can have a high IQ and income but be absolutely clueless about international relations if they live totally in the US bubble. Anyone who understands the world knows that the US has been disgraced by the truths Snowden revealed, and not by any circumstances of his revelations. Likewise with the Vienna debacle and South American revulsion today and henceforth.

[cascadiance]

129. Ben Franklin is rolling over in his grave over idiotic statements like this!

Why do we have to look outside of our country instead of within for examples of democracy in today's world instead of movements towards a police state? It is very sad!

Today is one day that I want to celebrate our country and not wear controversial political shirts, V masks, etc. But what's happened the last month or so makes even that hard to do now and celebrate the true meaning of today and not feel like I'm "faking it"!

[kenny blankenship]

130. We should maybe redesignate 7/4 as "Helpless Dependence on Big Daddy" Day.

Contradiction solved!

[Doctor_J]

131. Exactly the words of the Bushies when the PATRIOT Act was rammed through

This president has (inadvertently, I hope) destroyed the party, or at least decimated it.

[Jack Rabbit]

136. Good imperial subjects have nothing hide?

Talk about missing the point, that poster most certainly did.

Using our diplomats to manipulate President Morales' plane to land in Vienna is an imperious act, the most imperious act of the US government since invading Iraq, and every bit as ham handed.

Obama has not had a good week. Perhaps he should try the man we elected president instead of the man making the world safe for corporate criminals by using American power to prosecute whistleblowers instead of Wall Street gangsters.

The government should be doing the people's work. If it were, it would have nothing to hide and we wouldn't need whistleblowers like Manning, Assange and Snowden.

[Enthusiast]

140. Truly, truly appalling.

K&R

[merrily]

141. The plane of the head of state of a sovereign nation.

Who the fuck would do that to Air Force One and expect Obama to allow a search, just to, you know, prove he had nothing to hide

I guess some people think President of the United States = king of the world.