Evo Morales' Presidential plane rerouted to Austria after false rumors of Snowden onboard

[flamingdem]

EDIT:Well scramble my jets! - NO JETS WERE SCRAMBLED, sorry didn't mean to confuse.
Portugal wouldn't let the Bolivian plane land because they thought Snowden was on board and didn't want the headache of having to extradite Snowden because of their treaty with the USA. So they refueled in Austria. No one knows the source of the rumor about Snowden onboard but lately Morales said he'd consider his asylum application.


(CNN) -- Bolivian officials say an official aircraft carrying President Evo Morales had to land in Austria on Tuesday after false rumors circulated that former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden was onboard.
Portuguese and French authorities wouldn't let the plane land in their territories, Bolivian Foreign Minister David Choquehuanca told reporters.

"We are told that there were some unfounded suspicions that Mr. Snowden was on the plane," Choquehuanca said. "We do not know who has invented this lie. Someone who wants to harm our country. This information that has been circulated is malicious information to harm this country."

The plane had been flying from Moscow back to Bolivia. The foreign minister said authorities from the South American country are investigating the source of the false rumors about Snowden.

"Portugal owes us an explanation. France owes us an explanation. ... The president's life was put at risk," Choquehuanca said.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/02/world/americas/bolivia-presidential-plane/

[leveymg]

1. From this shoddily-written piece, it was to land in Portugal to refuel, but was diverted to Austria

when other Euro countries didn't want to grant permission after Portugal withdrew landing permission after the plane departed from Moscow.

Not that it was forced down.

[flamingdem]

3. Essentially Cuba did the same thing

They didn't allow Snowden to transit through there because they have an accord with the USA.

This is about legal treaties.

[malaise]

2. This is out of fucking order

[flamingdem]

4. Cuba did it too. Countries don't want to break their treaties with the USA

Snowden is considered a fugitive. They don't want the headache of having to honor their treaties.

[boston bean]

9. Caba did what?

Scramble jets and forced a plane to land at an unscheduled airport?

[flamingdem]

10. This plane wasn't forced down

It was radioed that Portugal wouldn't accept refueling so they went to Austria

[boston bean]

12. Oh. Thanks for the explanation. nt

[cali]

17. how?

how are those countries not within their rights?

[longship]

5. Damn! This is getting down right weird.

I do not like this kind of crap, which is all one can call it no matter what position one takes on Snowden, NSA, etc.

I am very uncomfortable about this report.

[flamingdem]

19. Sorry I should have waited, it wasn't forced down as the article says

It was a rumor that Portugal acted on that Snowden was on the Bolivian plane.

In that case they'd have to turn him in to US authorities due to a treaty.

I think they wanted to avoid the headache

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. So let me get this straight

They would have to force themselves onto Bolivian territory to take an American citizen due to a treaty with the US?

They can refuse landing rights, but getting...physically on the plane is a violation of national sovereignty.

I guess the us will now require client states to declare war on others to get a 30 y/o

Yup...more lies

[flamingdem]

27. This was about treaties and Portugal didn't want to have to deal with Snowden

If they stopped there to refuel then they'd have to turn him in.

The rumor may have been started by Assange to create a bad impression of the US, or something

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. No they don't, and they know it

That plane is not Portuguese territory.

Jesus this is like 101 level stuff.

They can deny landing rights, but forcing themselves onto the plane is an act of war.

[flamingdem]

30. No one went on the plane, the plane was rerouted to Austria for refueling nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. They refused landing rights

The excuse used is bogus and you are swallowing it.

Though it is still a serious, perhaps recall ambassador, even break relations, violation of diplomatic protocols.

Also...the extent the us is going tells me Snowden got the Crown Jewels. They are afraid of a pissed off public.

[longship]

26. But to deny landing rights to a plane carrying a head of state is serious.

Can one imagine that happening to Air Force One?

Well, the Bolivians should correctly be quite pissed off.

BTW, I was aware of the situation from other posts and was not attempting to make any correction of yours. My comment is about the reportage that has stood up -- a country would opt to deny landing rights to a head of state.

Thanks for your response, but it was not necessary.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Sloppy writing

And even more sloppy coverage.

I doubt the reporter knows just how sloppy.

[longship]

35. Well, I had read a few of the other posts.

And indeed, your assessment of it is undoubtedly correct.

[Whisp]

81. LOL!!!

[WillyT]

6. Yeah... Yeah... No "Scrambling Of Jets"...

Another lie to us all.



& Rec !!!

[flamingdem]

11. Sorry I should edit that out, no scrambling happened just that Portugal wouldn't let them land

to refuel. That's due to treaties with the USA over fugitives

[malaise]

22. Thanks for the clarification

Phew!

[flamingdem]

23. Prosense in a post down below thinks it was rumors meant to create an impression

Kind of like this whole Snowden event. Assange might be the mastermind, or not.

[SidDithers]

24. So quick to believe a misreported story...

Sid

[rhett o rick]

42. I think everyone is immune to your "clever" snark Sid. I do like your avatar. nm

[Little Star]

8. In this new world everybody is guilty until proven innocent. WTH.

[CakeGrrl]

13. Isn't Hollande so disgusted with POTUS that they'd take Snowden no problem?

What's the problem, then?

Why WOULDN'T they want him?

[flamingdem]

15. They thought they could use him to plug a dike there

but then they found out he's a leaker .. nuck nuck nuck

[Whisp]

83. omg that is sooooo bad...

love it.

[n2doc]

14. Bet they wouldn't do this to Putin

If I were a Bolivian, I would have even more reason to hate the US.

[flamingdem]

16. This was Portugal's decision but unfortunately it was based on a rumor

We'd need to know where the rumor came from to decide what this incident represents.

They have to honor their treaty to return fugitives with the USA

[Savannahmann]

37. If Snowden had been on the plane

He would have been on Bolivian Soil. It is a diplomatic flight, a diplomatic pouch. It can't be inspected, and nothing could be seized.

[flamingdem]

38. I think all that matters is the origin of the rumor

because we don't know what happened and the motive.

[ProSense]

44. Exactly,

"I think all that matters is the origin of the rumor"

...Bolivia wants an explanation from France and Portugal, but the interesting thing is why would someone start the rumor?

Also, clearly Bolivia didn't give Snowden a lift.

[flamingdem]

47. Assange + crew don't care about any country, it's all a chess board

on which they push pieces around for their own cause.

It will be great if all these countries figure it out. I think Correa understood.

[TheMadMonk]

71. And it's not to the authors of the programs opposed? /nt

[flamingdem]

74. True, it's just that the authors have more resources

and the 11th dimension perhaps (nsa!)

[Savannahmann]

45. Who started the rumor is irrelevant to the actions.

I posted this in another thread. I hate to repeat myself, but it is relevant.

The plane was on a diplomatic mission. The President of Boliva has diplomatic immunity. Anything on the plane is the same as being in a diplomatic pouch. If Snowden had been on board the plane, there is nothing that anyone could have done about it. The plane could land at Washington National Airport and all the FBI could do is scowl. International law on this is absolute. Any violation of the plane is an international incident, and an act of war. We would bomb the crap out of anyone who boarded Air Force One to inspect it for a fugitive.

To wait until the plane was in the air to cancel the flight plan is horrendous. That also violates international agreements. Once a flight plan is accepted, the aircraft is cleared, and only weather or other unforeseen events can cause it to be changed or canceled. Even then, you are supposed to divert to the closest available airfield. That is covered under safety of flight agreements.

This is an enormous international incident. If anyone did it to Air Force One Secretary Kerry would be having a long talk with whatever Ambassador was involved and the term Unfriendly Incident which is Diplo Speak for the hand is resting on the holster. It is a term you use right before you put your military on higher alert with a war warning. It is akin to saying no shit Charlie, we are serious.

The sanctity of diplomatic pouches, couriers, and presidential planes is well understood and is in fact international law. Imagine if Bolivan Army personnel stormed our embassy. It would be the same thing as boarding the presidential plane to search for Snowden.

If Portugal and Spain have ambassadors to Boliva, they should be packing their bags, at the very least they will be Persona Non Grata in another day.

[flamingdem]

49. They had rerouted it to Spain, but at the last minute Spain withdrew

The blame is on the rumor, the nature of which we are as yet unaware, and the countries involved and their understanding of these laws.

[alcibiades_mystery]

55. Wow...good luck with that asylum, Mr. Snowden

They don't even want to catch his vapors/chemtrails.

[flamingdem]

57. "Not in my country you don't"

Land that is... raus mit ihnen, vete de aqui senor!

[ProSense]

51. Again,

"The plane was on a diplomatic mission. The President of Boliva has diplomatic immunity. Anything on the plane is the same as being in a diplomatic pouch. If Snowden had been on board the plane, there is nothing that anyone could have done about it. The plane could land at Washington National Airport and all the FBI could do is scowl. International law on this is absolute. Any violation of the plane is an international incident, and an act of war. We would bomb the crap out of anyone who boarded Air Force One to inspect it for a fugitive."

...a country closing its airspace is not an "act of war."

If the airspace is closed, the plane can't land. Period.

[Savannahmann]

58. You can't close airspace except in specific circumstances

Once a flight plan has been accepted. If weather or other events cause you to close an airfield, you have to divert to the nearest available airfield. If a plane crashes on the runway, and the airport is closed. All traffic is diverted to an alternate airfield. When we closed the airspace after the 9-11 attacks all aircraft were given safe landing locations. You just don't close it and wish the pilot well. That is a violation of the international flight rules agreed to by all nations who participate in international flights.

[ProSense]

60. Evidently,

"You can't close airspace except in specific circumstances"

...the countries decided they had one of those "specific circumstances." It's their airspace.

[flamingdem]

61. Portugal diverted to Spain, looks like Spain has some 'splainin to do nt

[ProSense]

62. Oh, and

DU Mail Message from Savannahmann

Return to My InboxMark as unreadDelete this messageBlock this sender


8:03 PM

Savannahmann

You are the heir to the throne of the kingdom of fools.

...please don't send me bullshit PMs. OK?

[Savannahmann]

67. Thank you

If I had posted that it would have been hidden as a violation of the posting rules. Since you did, I am blameless. I wonder what else I can get you to post?

[ProSense]

68. Clearly

"If I had posted that it would have been hidden as a violation of the posting rules. Since you did, I am blameless. I wonder what else I can get you to post?"

...the cowardly approach of sending a PM is an option.

[Bobbie Jo]

85. Not to mention

Incredibly creepy.

[quakerboy]

94. I think you have it backward. Rumors dont much matter. What matters is events that actually happen

I assume we can agree that the plane was turned away?

Why was the plane turned away? I guess I could be wrong, but I assume that the plane of the head of state of a foriegn country would not be subject to a search. Can Portugal search AF1 if the president lands there to refuel? I would be shocked if they could/did.

In which case, whether Snowden had been on the plane or not was irrelevant. Further, his being there or not would be irrelevant to any treaty Portugal might have signed. Which means Portugal had no real reason to refuse the plane landing for refueling.

The rumor, and its origin, is basically irrelevant. Its like if there was a rumor that my neighbor beats his wife, and then he throws her out in the front yard and beats her to find out where the rumor came from. It really doesn't matter where the rumor started. What matters is what actually HAPPENED that we all saw in the front yard.

[n2doc]

59. All I am saying is that a Chinese or Russian plane carrying their leader wouldn't have been stopped

Portugal and France would not have dared. Regardless of treaty or reason.

[RZM]

18. Sounds like something out of a cheap 70s thriller

About escaped Nazis.

[rhett o rick]

43. You lose the discussion, you said Nazi first. nm

[ProSense]

20. Think about

"We are told that there were some unfounded suspicions that Mr. Snowden was on the plane," Choquehuanca said. "We do not know who has invented this lie. Someone who wants to harm our country. This information that has been circulated is malicious information to harm this country."

...that. Who spread the lie? Is this another incident like the fake Ecuadorian document.

It's highly likely that these countries are seeing the information and situation for what it is: a distortion of events.

I mean, Snowden and Greenwald's initial reports were false (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023137494). He is selectively leaking information in an attempt to create a specific impression, and at the same time distorting the information being released.

It's likely these countries are seeing the big picture, and Snowden is losing credibility.

[flamingdem]

21. Good thinking Prosense. Of course it likely was Assange

Not bad for a guy living in a closet.

He made people think it was almost an act of war and Bolivia looked like a victim.

Then again Bolivia might think twice about further involvement in this headache!

[Arctic Dave]

63. LOL.

A rumor?

My sister's friend's cousin's dog groomer said they heard Snowden was on the plane.

Yeah , right.

Nice ass covering scenario, you get a smiley for creativity but a minus for plausibility.

[ProSense]

64. Oh,

"LOL.

A rumor?

My sister's friend's cousin's dog groomer said they heard Snowden was on the plane.

Yeah , right.

Nice ass covering scenario, you get a smiley for creativity but a minus for plausibility."

...my bad. The Bolivian official called it a "lie."

"We are told that there were some unfounded suspicions that Mr. Snowden was on the plane," Choquehuanca said. "We do not know who has invented this lie. Someone who wants to harm our country. This information that has been circulated is malicious information to harm this country."

[Arctic Dave]

65. I heard a rumor that he is staying at your place.

The guys in black with big guns will be by shortly.

Am I to believe this is how things are done?

[ProSense]

66. LOL!

[Marr]

92. If a simple rumor inspired such actions, that ought to give you pause.

Our government has been acting rashly and recklessly in its attempts to get its hands on a whistle blower who made some powerful people look bad.

Other governments are responding to that desperate, reckless stance and trying to stay out of it. That shouldn't give you any reassurance and it certainly doesn't mean that the information Snowden leaked is less credible.

[Number23]

31. He has really become the head ache that no one wants.

Even a whisper that someone may be helping him is enough to cause chaos.

[flamingdem]

33. The problem is the Assange team starting this rumor, if Boliva can't see that they're screwed

I hope Biden gets on the phone with Evo since they're already calling for an emergency UNASUR meeting to discuss this per telesur in Venezuela.


This is Assange's rumor I bet and the Latin American left don't want his crap making their lives difficult.

[CakeGrrl]

34. That says it all, doesn't it?

[Number23]

36. It does. But none of this should come as a surprise to anyone who knows anything about any of this

which is probably why the denizens of GD have been so quiet about all of this lately.

It's interesting how the topic has changed in the last week. Last week, the pro-Snowdens were drowning this place in hero worship. This week, the pro-Snowdens "never saw any of last week's worship" and it's the people who are opposed to his actions that are the only ones still talking about him.

[Tarheel_Dem]

46. +1,000,000,000

The Assange-anistas have the whole world in an uproar, based on a series of rumors & lies. First, Correa claims someone faked a document with his Embassy's seal on it, and now rumors that a Bolivian president's plane has been "forced" down? Who gains from this sort of shit? This is a full on assault to foment anti US fervor, and there's a really funky smell coming from a certain London embassy.

[flamingdem]

53. It's working to some extent. I just hope the Latin American leaders come to their senses

and don't see this as a pride line that is a game changer.

In the end they have to be seeing that this is not worth the headache!

[rhett o rick]

48. "and it's the people who are opposed to his actions that are the only ones still talking about him."

You got that part right. The people that decided to be obsessed with Snowden's character in lieu of acknowledging that there just might be a problem with our security agencies. It's the conservatives that so hate whistle-blowers that shake up their denial bubbles.

Others here recognize that regardless of Snowden's character we have a situation that needs further review and no amount of denial or misdirection will change that.

What I cant understand is that it appears the Democrats support further investigations while Republicans like James Clapper want to sweep everything under the carpet. And when push comes to shove, the conservative Democrats side with Clapper and the REpublicans.

[Number23]

72. lol You think what you want

It's pretty obvious that the man's dwindling fans aren't talking about him because he's royally screwed the pooch. When even Vladimir Putin asks you to stop "hurting your country" and that country is the USA you know you're screwed.

[rhett o rick]

90. You can rationalize all you want but your sweet denial bubble is going to break. Those that live in

denial are not equipt to deal with reality. "Plez dont tell me that our spy agencies are spying on us". They spied on you during the Bush admin. and they are the same people, the same programs and the same REPUBLICAN leaders. Did you think that when Obama was inaugurated the Bush spy machine would die?

But you believe the conservative meme that you have nothing to fear because you havent done anything wrong. Our founders would shudder at the cowardice shown by people that are supposed to be "politically liberal".

The spy agencies spy on us because some of us are so weak that they allow it while living in the denial world.

When the boy cried that the emperor had no clothes, the conservatives screamed, kill the boy. His girl friend was a pole-dancer.

[Number23]

93. The fan of 'the man no country will take' is telling me that I am the one in Teh Bubble

That is absolutely hilarious.

Your entire post is non-sensical gibberish. Absolute melodramatic foolishness that a thinking person would be embarrassed to have aligned with their name.

As I said, when VLADIMIR PUTIN, the man who despises the US more than any other person, says that you need to stop hurting America, you know you are in trouble. There is no getting around that, no matter how much deranged prose about "screaming conservatives" and "pole dancing" girlfriends you pull out of your nether regions.

[CakeGrrl]

89. Believe it or not, it is possible to

hold the concept that the leaker should go to jail alongside the recognition that surveillance potential should be discussed.

If you want to see "obsession" with Snowden, check out people who build ignore lists and lapse into namecalling if you dare express anything but total sympathy for and solidarity with him.

[rhett o rick]

91. I dont believe it. There are basically two schools of thought here. One that says we need to

investigate further and the other that wants to lynch Snowden and anyone else that dares to look behind the secrecy curtain.

The second group want their denial so bad they will launch character assassinations against anyone that tries to expose what's behind the curtain.

Transparency is essential for democracy. Plez support transparency, plez support democracy.

[southernyankeebelle]

39. Well I think it's about time for Snowden to come home and stand up for his rights.

I would lawyer up and am sure he has a lot of supporters here and around the world who would support him.

[flamingdem]

40. His dad has retained Ralph Fein a Libertarian hot shot lawyer for him nt

[southernyankeebelle]

41. Well I think he needs to come home. I think Ellisburg was a hero because he stay here

and fought the good fight and won. I still wonder why he ran. He could have stayed and lawyered up. When he went to Russia and Hong Kong is when I started wonder what his true colors were. I still wonder what the truth is.

[alcibiades_mystery]

52. Ralph Fein? Who dragged the damn English Patient into this farce?

[flamingdem]

54. ooops do I really have to look up my own post

ha ha ha

[DeSwiss]

50. Portugal and France are now officially on my shit-list. n/t

[flamingdem]

56. Add Spain, they were the first country that refused the rerouting by Portugal nt

[DeSwiss]

70. They were already there.

- Fucking conquistadors.....

[flamingdem]

73. LOL true, Latin Americans should be complaining

about them! There were down there there messing around for eons.

[Iliyah]

69. HOLLYWOOD

A writer couldn't do much better, lol

Kinda reminds me of the movie that Leonardo Dicaprio played in where he portrayed the person who eluded the FBI for years and was eventually caught and become an FBI specialist.

[flamingdem]

77. What is the best ending to this caper?

I like the Snowden gets rehabilitated and works for the NSA plot!

[Whisp]

88. It was all a dream!

*cues Dallas music.

[Whisp]

86. Catch Me If You Can.

a remake of the Great Imposter.

[morningfog]

75. Embarrassing ham fisted behavior by the US.

[flamingdem]

76. Was there a report that the US is behind this?

I tend to think the rumor was floated by the Assange crew but who knows. I suspect we'll find out.

[morningfog]

78. You think the US had no role in blocking the plane's landing?

lol.

[flamingdem]

79. I think we'll find out so I don't need to think about it

They're sleeping over there now but will be blabbing tomorrow

[morningfog]

80. You don't need to think about it, but blame Assange in every other post?

more lol.

[flamingdem]

82. That is my first impression

My intuition because of the reactions I saw. A lot of attacks against the USA and Latin Americans in an uproar. Hard to believe that this reaction would be desirable to the Obama Admin.

[kenny blankenship]

87. Children are more reasonable.

[Eleanors38]

84. Christ, doesn't anyone keep passenger manifests anymore,

or is everything punk drama now?