If Zimmerman walks what message is sent to African Americans

[DemocratSinceBirth]

And specifically African Americans with teen age boys.

I have one friend who works in the entertainment industry and lives in affluent Redondo beach. He's so concerned that he's considering getting a concealed carry permit lest some yahoo mistake him for a criminal.

I have another friend, white, who is raising his two adopted African American sons. He teaches his kids to be respectful, look people in the eyes, and conduct themselves properly, but he's still concerned.

[JustAnotherGen]

1. It tells us nothing

My father knew, my brother knows, my nephews know - and shoot - I know -

The reality of America is the reality of America. The Trayvon Martin murder is just one of many. There will be more. It's just the reality we live with.

What do you think would be the impact?

We've always been taught to be cautious, leery, and suspicious of certain groups of people and situations. Is that wrong? Or is that a harsh reality?

[geek tragedy]

2. It says open season on them if you live in Florida.

Any KKK guy can go out with his gun, pick a fight with 17 year old black kid, and if the kid fights back shoot him in the face.

Just like in Texas when it's dark out you can shoot a pickpocket in the back.

[ZombieHorde]

3. I don't think this is a matter of "sent to," as much as it is "recieved from."

Different people will have different interpretations from this situation.

[Nye Bevan]

4. Whatever the verdict, the message for me is that we need gun control.

There will always be insults, misunderstandings, and fistfights. But without the gun in the equation, the likely outcome is a black eye, a broken nose, or a few bruises. Not someone dying.

[Just Saying]

77. I tend to agree with you

I think FL residents and others need to look long and hard at laws that allow people to gun each other down without recourse. I can even get behind e idea of being allowed to protect your own home and property but not to the point where you can follow and challenge people or shoot someone knocking at our door.

[lumberjack_jeff]

5. Prisons aren't to send messages, but to punish criminals. n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. And when criminals walk, a message is sent n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

28. A criminal who walks isn't a criminal.

Courts must prove guilt. Failing that, the defendant is innocent.

If Zimmerman walks, the message that should be received is to stop rushing to judgment.

I don't find the idea that Zimmerman should be convicted because Martin was black, to be in any way better than the idea that he should be found innocent because Martin was black.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. There is a difference between innocent and not guilty.

A finding of innocent is not within the jury's purview.

And Zimmerman shouldn't be found guilty because Trayvon is black. He should be found guilty because he shot an unarmed minor in the heart.

[Just Saying]

78. Exactly.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

55. You said: "A CRIMINAL who walks isn't a criminal". Now repeat that several times.

[lumberjack_jeff]

75. That might be useful advice if I weren't quoting you.

Criminals don't walk, the acquitted do.

Authoritarianism apparently wears more than one hat. I'm sure that at FR, many posters would agree with the statement that allowing Snowden to walk sends an intolerable message.

The outcome of every conviction has a message: this person is guilty of the crime of X and the appropriate punishment is Y.

The acquittal of Casey Anthony didn't send the message to toddlers that it was open season on them.

[Just Saying]

80. So Casey was innocent in your opinion?

The acquittal of Casey Anthony didn't send the message to toddlers that it was open season on them.

Because I think she should be rotting in jail for killing her daughter. I don't think she should have been allowed to benefit from dumping her own child like trash then keeping it secret so that evidence was destroyed.

Maybe FL's legal system is just FUBAR.

[lumberjack_jeff]

82. My opinion is immaterial.

The point of this thread is that jurors should choose a verdict by considering the "message" that it would send.

[Just Saying]

87. I agree with you that a jury can't consider that.

During the trial, a jury is normally instructed not even to consider punishment when they're just on the guilt or innocence part.

But I do think everyone should be looking at the law if we see it being used to allow vigilantes to walk free.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

91. I never suggested the jury should consider the societal impact of their decision

But it's fanciful to believe a lot of black folks won't be taking a message from their decision.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

86. Uh, that's not what you wrote (Post #28). Maybe you should go back and correct it...

"A criminal who walks isn't a criminal."

[Just Saying]

79. Perhaps Zimmerman shouldn't have rushed to judgement.

I think many people here have looked at the evidence and are making informed judgements.

[gollygee]

81. Failing that, the defendant is assumed not guilty by the court

However, whether someone is actually innocent or guilty is beyond the realm of the court. A criminal who walks is still a criminal, just one who wasn't caught.

[Jackpine Radical]

53. Not exactly true.

Criminal science types talk about 4 functions served by incarceration: Retribution (getting even), incapacitation (putting them away where they can't do more crimes for a while), rehabilitation (fixing them), and deterrence (serving as a warning to others).

[lumberjack_jeff]

64. The penalty for committing a crime is the deterrent, and the message. Verdicts are not.

I think the collective DU zeitgeist is looking at this crime through a lens that might be distorting reality.

[Jackpine Radical]

70. That's entirely possible.

I have never really arrived at a strong opinion on what actually happened that night. My impulses are to side against the wannabe cop and for the apparent victim, but I really try to make an effort not to let my biases be the principal determinant of my empirical beliefs.

[lumberjack_jeff]

76. Fully agreed. nt

[Maximumnegro]

60. Prisons are a private enterprise. Prison is business.nt

[KamaAina]

6. Same one that was sent when the cops who beat Rodney King walked

[siligut]

20. This time though, they have new and improved riot control they want to practice with

I hope that protesters are aware of this and plan their actions with this in mind.

[NOLALady]

104. But,

protestors and rioters are not the same.

[RebelOne]

30. Same thing as what happened in Miami in the '80s.

A black man was shot and killed by a white cop and the cop walked free. The blacks rioted in the streets and set fire to every thing in sight,

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. I hope there is no Liberty City Riot ll

.

[dkf]

8. There is no message. You can't generalize anything from a specific case that hangs on nitty gritty

Definitions and interpretations of law.

[JustAnotherGen]

9. You should post this

In the African American group here too.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. Please feel free to re-post it

I have friends in that area, and maybe I'm being totally irrational, but I'm concerned.

[JustAnotherGen]

22. Nooo

I posted one about our 'fears' last week. Just asking - what were we conditioned to fear. This is a good follow up.

The point being - is - if you really want to know about the black American community's feelings - you have a group of us right here. You'll also find we are less forthcoming outside of that forum . . . i.e. you'll probably get more honest answers back there.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. Done

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11873338

[avebury]

10. It will prove (again) that not everyone

is treated equally in this country. It is only a matter of time before the white people in this country become a member of the minority class and that scares the crap out of way to many of them. This is why you see so many attempts to restrict minority rights, including voting. It never dawns to these idiots that everything they are doing to minority groups can well come back to haunt them down the road.

If AAs and Hispanics decided to increase their birth rates in order to drive the white people into minority status faster, I bet you would see a serious change in the old white guard on the issues of Planned Parenthood and Abortion. Their "Pro Life" stance can end up being one of the things that drives them into irrelevancy.

[pipi_k]

11. Probably the same message

sent to young kids everywhere after Kaylee Anthony's mom walked.

And the same message that was sent to pretty white ladies and their boyfriends after OJ Simpson walked.

And the same message sent to young boys after Michael Jackson walked.

And what about the message sent to ordinary (non NFL stars) people after Ray Lewis walked?

As someone already said...murders happen all the time...

[Cleita]

12. It tells them to stay out of Florida.

It tells them that there is separate justice there, or lack of it for people of color.

[HockeyMom]

14. If you are unarmed in Florida,

it is open season on you, whatever your race. Stand in line for a pizza? Exchange harsh words with fellow, "law abiding CCW person" customer, get shot unless you can shoot back at him. Welcome, to the Wild West. It is "not duty of Law Enforcement to protect you, prevent crime, etc". "They just investigate crime AFTER the fact", and sit around drinking coffee and eating donuts. Those quotes were from the pro-gun people. The gunners are judge, jury, and especially, executioners.

This is how I feel since moving to Florida from NYC. Being an old, white woman doesn't exempt me from them.

[hack89]

19. So gun violence has increased in Florida? nt

[HockeyMom]

23. Justifiable homicides

have increased by 30% since SYG. Draw your own conclusions from that.

[hack89]

27. Are you aware of the actual criteria for reporting a killing as a Justifiable Homicide?

Justifiable Homicide

The killing of the perpetrator of a serious criminal offense either by a law enforcement officer in
the line of duty or by a private citizen, during the commission of a serious criminal offense.

Do not consider a killing as justifiable or excusable on the basis of the action of the
coroner, prosecutor, grand jury, court or a claim of self-defense. Score the offense
according to the investigating officer's findings. Many killings where the offender claims
self-defense are not justifiable. The killing is justifiable if the investigation indicates that
the citizen was not a participant in the incident leading to the killing and if the victim was
committing a felony at the time of the killing.

http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/Content/getdoc/7fad02e4-96bd-46d9-82fc-4a5c46f0be22/datahistory_ucrmanual-1-.aspx

[HockeyMom]

31. BS

I say as a non-gun toting Florida transplant. I have completely changed my living pattern since moving to this Wild West State. I am always on the defensive now against law abiding citizens with guns. Hey, ain't that a good thing for the gunners?

[hack89]

33. That is the official Florida manual on crime reports

the reports that document the 30% increase in justifiable homicides.

I can't do anything about your irrational fears - that's your problem to deal with. I can only show you the facts.

[HockeyMom]

37. Thank you that at least you didn't question my stats

what was the rate BEFORE SYG? Show me that. Personally, I think Zimmerman will walk. They can then include him in that statistic.

Legal is not always, and especially here in Florida, MORALLY right.

[hack89]

41. You are missing my point

If you are unarmed in Florida, it is open season on you, whatever your race. Stand in line for a pizza? Exchange harsh words with fellow, "law abiding CCW person" customer, get shot unless you can shoot back at him.

It can only be justifiable homicide if the person who was shot was committing a felony and the shooter was not a participant in the incident leading to the killing. The Trayvon Martin killing can never be justifiable homicide. Your example could never be justifiable homicide.

[HockeyMom]

48. I will never get out of my car in Florida

if in an accident. I will call the cops on my cell and wait inside my car until they get there. My gun owning husband thinks I am crazy about this. I am too afraid of who will have a gun and think I have threatened them, and just shoot me over road rage here. In NY, I never felt like this.

If I stay in my car until the cops get there, the other person can rant, rave, all they want. If I am inside my car, even if they perceive me to be a threat to them, they will have to shoot me through my windshield. Try to claim SYG and self defense with that one.

I never, ever would have thought this before, but I now do living in a "Shall Issue" state like Florida where who knows what crazy has a gun.

Paranoid? Yes, I am now living in Florida with all these guns all around.

[hack89]

54. There are 40 "shall issue" states

I think your fears are overblown.

[Hoyt]

63. Most of us don't study that crap because we don't carry guns and

don't really give a crud when we can "legally" shoot people. Leave that to the yahoos into guns.

[hack89]

71. I understand that laws, data and statistics are beneath you

but some of us finding them useful.

[Hoyt]

73. Hack, the only people who care are those who arm up and train to shoot people.

I don't need to know when I can shoot an unarmed person and get away with it. If I did, I can read the yahoo discussions in the gungeon.

[hack89]

74. Ah Hoyt - please don't ever change.

No one does tongue in cheek better than you.

[Tikki]

15. It will tell them their children are worthless. And living in Florida "good luck with that".

Trayvon Martin was murdered..plain and simple like; murdered.


Tikki

[Iggo]

16. Nothing other than what we already know. (n/t)

[immoderate]

17. White makes right?

Surprise!

--imm

[Bake]

18. Individual cases aren't tried in order to send a message

A case should be tried on its own merits. This is a less than perfect case. And I predict that Zippy will walk.

Bake

[Brickbat]

21. Nothing they don't already know.

[frazzled]

25. That WWB (Walking While Black) is dangerous ...

Which I think is already known.

[Recursion]

26. Individual trials are horrible ways to "send a message"

Because all it means is that the prosecution didn't convince 6 women in Florida to convict him.

[HockeyMom]

29. Your children aren't safe

epecially if you are black and have teenage sons. While I am not black, I am the mother of a GAY CHILD, so I can somewhat understand what Trayvon's Mother is feeling.

Anyone who isn't the "norm" is a target.

[cherokeeprogressive]

32. That six women in Florida didn't agree with the DA.

[pipi_k]

36. And I'll just bet

that, none of them being black, they'll be accused of being "racists".

[DemocratSinceBirth]

43. Sanford where the trial occurred is thirty percent African American

I'm not a great mathematician but I know 30% of 6 is 1.8. 1.8 rounded off is two.

How did the state get an all white jury?

[woolldog]

66. Prosecution looks incompetent to me.

That's probably why.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

72. They probably used all their peremptory challenges and this jury was what's left.

[pipi_k]

96. No clue...

I guess race might not have been a huge factor for either side...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

100. Striking a juror because of his of her race violates the 14th Amendment

The U.S. Supreme Court, in Batson v. Kentucky, 476 U.S. 79, 106 S. Ct. 1712, 90 L. Ed. 2d 69 (1986), prohibited prosecutors from excluding prospective jurors on the basis of race.

Are you seriously arguing the victim's and perpetrator's race are of no moment in this case?




The reaction on the internet, the media, and in "real life" strongly suggest otherwise.

[pipi_k]

102. If I am...

then why would that be more outrageous and uncalled for than people insisting that race IS a factor?


You know, I really really really hate it when crimes of this magnitude occur between people of different races. They give the racism-obsessed too much ammunition for finding racism in just about every interaction or statement.

So, I've asked myself this question...

If the tables were turned...if Trayvon Martin had been a white boy and George Zimmerman had been a black man, would people still be foaming at the mouth about a poor white boy being shot by a big, bad, black man?

Really...I wonder.

My opinion is that perhaps a disturbing number of individuals would, in an effort not to look like racists, end up blaming the white boy. It's like people have to try and counter very real racism in our country by making black people the victims of everything white people do.

And then there are the ones who perhaps may be projecting a bit of their own racism onto others because it makes them too uncomfortable to acknowledge it in themselves.

As they say, when we point a finger at someone, three more are pointing back at us.

IOW, what we hate in others is often what we hate in ourselves.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

103. If

If the tables were turned...if Trayvon Martin had been a white boy and George Zimmerman had been a black man, would people still be foaming at the mouth about a poor white boy being shot by a big, bad, black man?

If Trayvon killed an unarmed white kid he would be on Florida's death row.

[cherokeeprogressive]

67. Yup. n/t

[badtoworse]

34. It says the Prosecution did not prove its case.

This is a criminal trial. How a certain segment of the population might react should not be considetation in the verdict.

[RedCappedBandit]

38. Despite the meme, we don't live in "post-racial america"

[noiretextatique]

39. the message is: nothing has changed

i realy have a hard time posting here because many don't seem to be aware of the issue of jury nullification. well, they know about it from the OJ trial but many don't seem to know that it took 40 years to convict medgar evers' murderer. why did it take so long? we know why. this is the ugly underbelly of the american justice system that many chose to ignore. the message will be: nothing has changed...you aren't "really" a full citizen...even as a victim, you are still "suspect." etc, etc, etc.

[CakeGrrl]

40. Message: If you don't like the way an AA person looks, shoot them.

There is NO other way to explain how an armed individual can IGNORE the advice of 911, instigate contact with an unarmed individual, then decide they need to be shot as a result.

Any armed jackass can approach you, pick a fight, shoot you and say they needed to do it.

THAT is the takeaway if he walks.

[HappyMe]

46. I agree.

This will also embolden any ass in a 'stand your ground' state to blast away.

[BronxBoy]

42. We are not looking for a message....

we are simply looking for a the justice system works as equitably for Black folk as it does for others. That has all the Martin family has asked for since the beginning. And by equitably, I mean that the investigation, decision to prosecute and subsequent prosecution would be the same if the roles and ages of the main parties in this incident were reversed.

And if after all is said and done and Mr. Zimmerman is acquitted, then my guess is that the feeling of the our community will be as it always has been: There are two systems of justice in this country. One works for some people and one doesn't. Nothing new to be seen and no great revelations to be had..... Just another day in 400 years of paradise.

[Vattel]

45. One message that is sent: In Florida a guilty verdict requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

One message that isn't sent: Racism is rampant in the USA. Obviously racism is rampant in the USA, but there is no reason to think that an acquittal would be a product of racism as opposed to the weakness of the prosecution's case.

One message that has already been sent is that parents need to caution children about the fact that lots of people carry guns these days, including many who shouldn't.

[HockeyMom]

50. You last sentence holds true for me

and I don't have children in Florida. I myself, as an non-gun toting, ol,d white woman worry about it too. The Zimmerman's of the state could care less about females too. Look at his violent history towards females too.

Crazy, macho men with guns are a threat to anyone.

[truebrit71]

47. Don't buy Skittles...

....But seriously the message is the same it always has been...'you're fucked no matter what you do'....

I really, really, REALLY hope that Zimmerman gets convicted....the alternative doesn't bear
thinking about..

[uponit7771]

49. +1, but in this case your screwed if your AA and buy skittles

[WovenGems]

51. OPEN SEASON!!!!!

[Cigar11]

52. Get Gun and Stand My Ground ...

... trust me, a real Night Watchman announces himself as such.

[FiveGoodMen]

56. The message will be: "It's open season"

Hope it doesn't go that way!

[jberryhill]

59. The indictment demonstrated that not to be true

"Open season" was the message sent by the original delay in charging Zimmerman.

The verdict is determined by the jury on the case presented by the prosecution and the defense, and is not a message.

[jberryhill]

57. The message is that suspected crimes are subject to trial

The point here, as far as I'm concerned, is that Zimmerman was indicted and tried, instead of "oh, he only shot a black teenager who was not doing anything illegal."

If a black man shot a white teenager, there would be an investigation and a trial, instead of the police simply blowing it off as no big deal.

The outcome of this trial, and I have no opinion on what it "should" be, is not at all as interesting to me at least, as the mere fact that it is not open season on black kids.

[Scootaloo]

58. The message was sent way before the trial.

The message was delivered loud and clear when the cops at the scene helped Zimmerman dust off, shook his hand, and sent him home - then decided to not inform Trayvon's parents of what had happened.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

61. Message to black Americans: Your lives don't mean shit! We can shoot you on the spot for no reason..

...and get off scott-free!

How anyone can defend this is beyond me.

I've been reading a lot of message boards lately and it seems that there are a lot of people seeing this case as justice for the O.J. ruling. They want Zimmerman to get off because O.J. got off.

It's very sick! Racist and sick!!

[egduj]

62. I'd guess the same message that was sen to Jewish-Americans. ..

When OJ walked. What the message is, I have no idea. But it would have to be the same, I assume.

[FiveGoodMen]

94. You think OJ's killings were motivated by anti-semitism?

[Shankapotomus]

65. I suppose that most of White America

doesn't give a shit about them. But I suspect they've figured that one out.

[1-Old-Man]

68. What message? Shoot first and then claim you were standing your ground.

[HiPointDem]

69. i wonder about that too.

[JI7]

83. when you teach kids about strangers who follow you , exceptions have to be made for black boys

anything others are allowed to do to defend themselves do not apply to black boys.

black boys will just have to hope the person is not someone looking to do them harm.

[aquart]

84. It wouldn't send a great message to white people, either.

[Skittles]

85. the message is the fear and racism of gun humpers trumps all

[Beacool]

88. The same message that is sent daily in Chicago, that life is cheap.

The vast majority of AA young men are killed by other AA young men, not by wannabe cops patrolling a neighborhood in FL.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

92. I have heard this argument many times. I don't get it

Because black folks kill blacks folks, white folks can kill them too...

[Beacool]

98. No, but the far more frequent issue is not being addressed.

I hope that Zimmerman gets what he deserves for killing an unarmed young man that did nothing else that night than buy some snacks. But, the far more prevalent killings of young AA men by other AA men is not in the forefront of politicians and the media's minds, as is this case.

[LanternWaste]

89. I think it will simply reinforce the pre-existing message that...

I think it will simply reinforce the pre-existing message that Existing While Black is not good for the health of far too many people, and that minding one's own business is just not good enough for a lot of ugly people.

[Apophis]

90. As a black man, it'll tell me that any paranoid yahoo with a gun can shoot

and kill me if he thinks I'm up to no good.

But I've thought that all my life.

[lawwolf]

93. The message is the Prosecution in this case failed to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt

The message is the Prosecution in this case failed to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant was guilty of the crime charged. Nothing more, nothing less. It is always a mistake when trying to gleam some larger meaning out of a jury verdict.

[ecstatic]

95. That ship already sailed. zwannabe got to go home

and sleep in his warm bed while Trayvon's unidentified body was crammed in a freezer somewhere (awaiting a drug test that Zim didn't have to take).

If gz goes free, it will only reinforce the messages that have already been sent, not only in this case, but in thousands of other cases.

Police to GZ: "We're on your side here! By the way, going to the beach? Have fun!"

[surrealAmerican]

97. I'm hoping your Redondo Beach friend reconsiders.

He's far more likely to be treated like (or mistaken for) a criminal if he has a gun, especially by the police.

[Orsino]

99. What message?

The same old message.

[no_hypocrisy]

101. If you're African-American, living in Florida, and SYG is still in effect, you're screwed.

1. Anybody can kill you and claim self-defense.
2. If you are armed and use deadly force to defend yourself, your defense will not be respected. You will be convicted of murder.

It's that simple.

[naaman fletcher]

106. Stand your Ground has nothing to do with this. nt.

[hfojvt]

105. What message are you trying to send?

What message have you received?

Sounds to me that you believe somehow "black people should be worried about getting killed by non-black people".

Which is true, to a degree. Anybody could be killed by anybody and there are lots of dangerous people on this planet, in spite of our entry in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

However, for every Trayvon Martin there are 19 like Jalisa Reed and Ranisha Jones. Just like Trayvon they were young and black. However, their murders did not make the national news, because their deaths could not be used to flog the racist boogeyman. Probably what will happen is that after two months go by and 1,000 (or more) young black people are killed by other young black people, some young black person will be killed by a white person and it will be posted here as evidence of what the Zimmerman verdict lead to.

[Arkana]

107. That the prosecutors in his trial are rivaling OJ Simpson's prosecutors in terms of ineptitude?