26 Sens.: NSA is relying on a "secret body of law" to collect massive amounts of data on US citizens

[Waiting For Everyman]

A bipartisan group of 26 US senators has written to intelligence chiefs to complain that the administration is relying on a "secret body of law" to collect massive amounts of data on US citizens.

The senators accuse officials of making misleading statements and demand that the director of national intelligence James Clapper answer a series of specific questions on the scale of domestic surveillance as well as the legal justification for it.

In their strongly-worded letter to Clapper, the senators said they believed the government may be misinterpreting existing legislation to justify the sweeping collection of telephone and internet data revealed by the Guardian.

"We are concerned that by depending on secret interpretations of the Patriot Act that differed from an intuitive reading of the statute, this program essentially relied for years on a secret body of law," they say.

...

In a press statement, the group of senators added: "The recent public disclosures of secret government surveillance programs have exposed how secret interpretations of the USA Patriot Act have allowed for the bulk collection of massive amounts of data on the communications of ordinary Americans with no connection to wrongdoing."

...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/28/senators-james-clapper-nsa-data-collection


Senators signing the letter:

Ron Wyden (D-Or), Mark Udall (D-Co), Lisa Murkowski (R-Alaska), Patrick Leahy (D-Vt), Mark Kirk (R-Il), Dick Durbin (D-Il), Tom Udall (D-NM), Brian Schatz (D-Hawaii), Jon Tester (D-Mt), Jeanne Shaheen (D-NH), Dean Heller (R- Nev),Mark Begich (D-Alaska), Bernie Sanders (I-Vt), Patty Murray (D-Wash), Jeff Merkley (D-Ore), Mazie Hirono (D-Hawaii), Al Franken (D-Minn), Tom Harkin (D-Iowa), Chris Coons (D-Del), Maria Cantwell (D-Wash), Richard Blumenthal (D-Conn), Max Baucus (D-Mont), Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass), Martin Heinrich (D-NM), Tammy Baldwin (D-Wisc) and Mike Lee (R-Utah).

[Mojorabbit]

1. Almost all Dems. Thank you! nt

[frylock]

33. and no Pauls!

[totodeinhere]

66. Actually getting four Republicans to join a predominantly Democratic group is quite

significant.

[rhett o rick]

77. And Senator Frankin is included. He must have reconsidered. nm

[lunasun]

90. R+D Sens from Illinois signed this

[AnotherMcIntosh]

2. What "secret body of law" allows an official to lie to Congress with the "least untruthful" answer?

[Waiting For Everyman]

9. I'm very surprised to see the senators use the term "secret body of law".

It's not something I've ever seen before, from any member of Congress.

And that "least untruthful" statement is fascinating. Stealth-think is kind of psycho.

[quinnox]

3. Those damn Paul-bots and libertarians!

Good for them, and nice to see some Democrats standing for civil liberties, for a change.

[Waiting For Everyman]

10. Yep, good to see them taking a strong public stand on this.

Between the lines I get the feeling that they too, are getting a little frightened at what they created.

[rhett o rick]

78. The list is getting longer. nm

[lark]

101. Who else signed?

I'm hoping Sen. Nelson from FL is one of the additions. I know there's no hope that Rubio would sign, he's such a RW boy toy.

[rhett o rick]

102. Sorry, I meant that these 26 are additions to the list of prominent people looking for further

investigations. It's getting crowded under the bus.

[lark]

105. OK, thanks for the clarification.

As one of those who is very concerned about our govenment lying and prying, the wheels have been firmly on my back as well.

[kentuck]

4. What a bunch of radicals!!

Good thing they are in the minority.

[msongs]

5. time to repeal the patriot act nt

[Waiting For Everyman]

11. Yes, it is! n/t

[leftstreet]

93. +1

[Lonr]

107. Past time

way past time for this POS legislation to be repealed!

[valerief]

126. It's always been time to repeal it. nt

[Earth_First]

6. Obviously a group of ungrateful, racist, turncoat Democrats...

[cantbeserious]

30. Careful, Careful - The Fiction Might Not Set You Free.

eom

[Jefferson23]

7. Shout out to my Senator Blumenthal.

[zeemike]

24. Not to brag but

Both of my senators (NM) are on that list...well yes I guess I will brag.

[Jefferson23]

36. Well, I would too if I were you!

[truebluegreen]

46. And my Senator Mark Udall

who has been waving his arms about this for years.

[Jefferson23]

49. Absolutely, kudos!

[The Last Dem.]

125. yes!

I know.

[ChaoticTrilby]

54. And both of my (female!) Washington senators are on the list as well.

DEFINITELY bragging. And shamelessly.

[suffragette]

94. A belated welcome to you from a fellow Washingtonian

[ChaoticTrilby]

115. Thanks for the welcome!

This'll always be my home.

[Jefferson23]

100. Brag away! It is a pleasure to do so, isn't it? n/t

[ChaoticTrilby]

116. Indeed, it is!

:

[KoKo]

8. Some from the NYT on this reported yesterday:

NYT-June 30th

"Infrastructure analysts like Mr. Snowden, in other words, are not just looking for electronic back doors into Chinese computers or Iranian mobile networks to steal secrets. They have a new double purpose: building a target list in case American leaders in a future conflict want to wipe out the computers’ hard drives or shut down the phone system.

Mr. Snowden’s collection of pilfered N.S.A. documents has cast an awkward light on officials’ past assurances to Congress and the public about their concern about Americans’ privacy.

It was only in March that James R. Clapper Jr., the director of national intelligence, told a Senate committee that the N.S.A. did not collect data on millions of Americans. Mr. Snowden’s records forced Mr. Clapper to backtrack, admitting his statement was false.

Last week, two senators challenged even the accuracy of a fact sheet prepared by the N.S.A. to counter Mr. Snowden’s claims about the phone data and Internet collection programs. Agency officials did not defend themselves; the fact sheet simply disappeared, without explanation, from the agency’s Web site.

Newly disclosed slides from an N.S.A. PowerPoint presentation on the agency’s Prism database of Internet data, posted on Saturday by The Washington Post, reveal that the F.B.I. plays a role as middleman between the N.S.A. and Internet companies like Google and Yahoo. The arrangement provides the N.S.A. with a defense, however nominal, against claims that it spies on United States soil.

Even in the unaccustomed spotlight after the N.S.A. revelations, intelligence officials have concealed more than they have revealed in careful comments, fearful of alerting potential eavesdropping targets to agency methods. They invariably discuss the N.S.A.’s role in preventing terrorist attacks, an agency priority that the public can easily grasp.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/01/us/job-title-key-to-inner-access-held-by-snowden.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1

[L0oniX]

63. Well it's a good thing the military is blocking the Guardian ...now they have to block the NYT too?

[AnotherMcIntosh]

12. Did you notice the absence of the name of a senior Senator, Sen Harry Reid (D-NV)?

[winter is coming]

51. I'm sure that has nothing whatsoever to do with the location of the new center. n/t

[idwiyo]

59. Ouch! That's harsh!

[siligut]

60. Mike Lee (R-Utah) is on there

But my suspicion is that he is acting as a mole in that group, to keep any discussion on Mormons down.

[Go Vols]

96. Utah Data Center

The heavily fortified $2 billion center should be up and running in September 2013. Flowing through its servers and routers and stored in near-bottomless databases will be all forms of communication, including the complete contents of private emails, cell phone calls, and Google searches, as well as all sorts of personal data trails—parking receipts, travel itineraries, bookstore purchases, and other digital “pocket litter.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/all/

[totodeinhere]

67. Isn't it ironic that the senator from Nevada who signed off on this is Republican

Dean Heller? I loath the man and I don't necessarily believe that he has sincere motives over this issue. But it is significant I think that this is a bipartisan group. And Dick Durbin, number two in the Democratic leadership is on board even though Milktoast Harry is not.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

72. Yes. n/t

[Waiting For Everyman]

83. I'm sad not to see my senator, Barbara Mikulski, on there too (D-MD) nt

[lark]

103. Yep

Disgusting who isn't on there, like almost all Repugs and the DLCers. Disgusting that the Dems keep making Reid the head of the Senate, he's no progressive, that's for sure.

[kenny blankenship]

13. "secret law" is not law. Period.

That is all.

[Yavapai]

108. "Ignorance of the law is no excuse..."

So, we probably already have done so.

What did the Ice Tea song say? Freedom of speech - just watch what you say."

[G_j]

14. Fuck that Greenwald!!

oh wait... we knew this all along... no wait...Snowden went to China...no wait...
never mind, I'm in over my head...

[whatchamacallit]

15. Maybe someone should send them a Greenwald smear

to change their opinions of right and wrong.

[Waiting For Everyman]

19. Somebody should "educate" them on why they are so wrong.

Poor, clueless Senators. They just don't understand the law, as well as net-dwellers do. Just because they enacted it means nothing

[whatchamacallit]

20. ;D

[WillyT]

16. K & R !!!

[Warren Stupidity]

17. Time to throw 26 senators under the bus.

They all must be racist paulbots or something.

Given that these 26 agree that the government has been conducting a massive domestic surveillance program, I expect certain prominent posters here to be posting strongly worded ops in unambiguous opposition to these programs and in support of our 4th amendment rights.

[rhett o rick]

79. I think they all have girl friends that are pole-dancers. nm

[Matariki]

18. "strongly-worded letter"

Strongly worded letters lets it seem like they are doing something without actually having to change policy.

[forestpath]

22. +1

[idwiyo]

27. +2

[sibelian]

50. +1

[Octafish]

95. NSA probably has on file what he really thinks.

Wyden and Udall have been on the case for a long time. The problems stem from the lack of support from their colleagues on both sides of the aisle and down Pennsylvania Avenue.

[BlueCaliDem]

127. That "strongly-worded letter" is the political equivalent to a pacifier for loud wailing babies.

But giving lip-service {even in writing} is no substitute for passing policies to eradicate the problem. What a bunch of cheap talk {even if it's in writing}.

[Rex]

21. Congress packs away certain things that would get the serfs pissed off

and so they deem in classified for 50 years so everyone will be long dead after the revelation comes out. Actually that has happened and then they extended the hiding of documents for another 50 years. Strange how that works? Yes they spy on you and yes they keep records. And if they don't want anyone outside of their elite bubble seeing certain documents, they bury them in time.

At least SOME still have enough brains to say no to the insanity of endless power and money.

[quinnox]

23. Kick for those who want to start digging up dirt and looking through boxes on these "unpatriotic"

and disloyal Senators and Congressmen.

[Warren Stupidity]

25. I heard some of them supported the Iraq war. nt.

[idwiyo]

29. Anyone with pole dancing girlfriends?

[DeSwiss]

38. Hehehehehehehe......

[JDPriestly]

26. Well worth reading the entire article.

The 26 senators pose a number of questions to the NSA. Let's watch and see whether they get the PUBLIC answers they request.

The Constitution did not envisage a secret bureau in the government to collect data on the routine communications and newspaper subscriptions of ordinary Americans. Not there. No way. And this is not necessary in order to protect Americans. I fact, it makes us very vulnerable because that database could be tapped into by a foreign power. What an absurd program.

That database, if tapped by an enemy would make it easy to figure out who was a government agent, who was in the military or in a security position. Honestly. There is no good to come from this program.

[Jackpine Radical]

76. Imagine the blackmail opportunities for a hostile foreign gov't.

There anin't nobody (except me, of course) who doesn't have dark, shameful secrets. There is nobody (except me, of course) who is above the potential for blackmail.

[JDPriestly]

82. Precisely! The people who support this just do not understand

it. They just don't think outside the box. This program, the concept of it is so beyond their comprehension that they just acquiesce.

Imagine a database with all that information about Americans there for the picking. All a hostile nation or company or individual would need would be the ability to assemble a group of hackers clever enough to open the thing up. And they would hit the jackpot of all time. All our information. I doubt that the government is looking for our credit card info, but anyone anywhere could open an account in someone's name with that info. Might not get many charges accepted.

This is so stupid I can't believe it. The people who run our governments don't really understand the magnitude of this project either.

[think]

28. 74 Senators appear to be missing... /nt

[Tarheel_Dem]

31. I think this might be called CYA. They're blaming this on the Admin's "interpretation" of the.....

statute, instead of admitting that it might have been bad law to begin with? If we get clarification out of this, then that's all the better, but the legislators charged with "oversight" already knew this.

[truebluegreen]

47. My Senator Mark Udall has been aware

of the secret "interpretation" of the law since his arrival on the oversight committee (right after his election in 2008 I believe). He has been complaining ever since without being able to divulge any specifics because, of course, it is all classified.

He's not covering his hienie, he's been trying to cover yours.

But yes, it was a terrible law to begin with, and has been interpreted to be even worse.

[Bluenorthwest]

48. Same for my Senators Weyden and Merkley they are representing me and the

people of Oregon and of the United States and have been pressing this issue, Weyden in particular along with Udall and attempting to make us aware of this state of affairs all along and for years now.

[FairWinds]

32. Why Do Those . .

racist Senators hate America?
And more to the point, why isn't Sherrod Brown (D-OH) among them?

[davidn3600]

34. How about instead of writing letter they start writing new laws to stop this crap?

[Apophis]

35. Strongly worded letters are worthless.

I won't be impressed until policy or law changes.

[Brewinblue]

39. New laws.

We don't really need new laws, we have the 4th Amendment. We just need a President that follows the law as written and intended, and his or her sworn duty to uphold the constitution.

We do need to dismantle the Patriot Act though. It is and always has been an utter clusterfuck and affront to democracy.

[Apophis]

40. Touché.

[DeSwiss]

37. Hurry!!! Rearrange those deck chairs!!!

- K&R

[center][/center]

[HooptieWagon]

41. Who knew there were so many racist libertarian Dem Senators?

Even a few R's as well. My Dem Senator (Nelson) wasn't on the list, as expected. Hes an asshole.

[Bonhomme Richard]

42. WTF! Don't they know we all knew that for quite some time. n/t

[leveymg]

43. FISA is a "secret body of law," including key secret rulings that "legalized" universal surveillance

Last edited Tue Jul 2, 2013, 04:30 PM - Edit history (1)

There's a good article about FISA Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly who was instrumental in the secret 2004 ruling that gave judicial cover to Bush's President's Surveillance Program, otherwise known as NSA Stellar Wind program, and later to rulings that implemented the 2008 FISA Amendment Act that created the current PRISM program. See, http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/secret-court-judges-upset-at-portrayal-of-collaboration-with-government/2013/06/29/ed73fb68-e01b-11e2-b94a-452948b95ca8_story.html

[Waiting For Everyman]

88. That is a really chilling article to read.

TY, leveymg, for posting it. Very recommended.

[leveymg]

98. Ur Welcome.

Interesting how some of the smartest people can believe incredibly stupid things - like, by signing off on a clearly unconstitutional secret government program with zilch real oversight, a Judge is protecting freedom and strengthening the judiciary.

[grahamhgreen]

44. K&R

[Douglas Carpenter]

45. knr

[sibelian]

52. K+R

[ohheckyeah]

53. "to justify the sweeping collection of telephone and internet data revealed by the Guardian"

But, Snowden, Greenwald and the Guardian didn't reveal anything everyone didn't already know.....right? Nothing to see there, so these Senators must all be looney conspiracy theorists.

(I would hope this wasn't necessary)

[DirkGently]

55. Obviously they don't know that "FISA" made everything legal in "1976."

I'm sure someone will be along shortly to explain how everything's finejustfine.

[ohheckyeah]

56. Fine meaning

Fucked up, Insecure, Neurotic, and Emotional.

[Mnemosyne]

57. No PA Senator. Hmm. nt

[Liberal_in_LA]

58. kick

[reusrename]

61. Secret court says secret interpretation of secret law is legal.

God Bless America!

Love it or leave it!

[AtheistCrusader]

62. Well, I hope they like the same kind of porn I like.

[L0oniX]

64. Oh pffft ...the Guardian is a bunch of bunny stompers. No wonder our military blocks them.

[intheflow]

65. You'd think Republicans would be all over this,

how they go on and on about Obama's unprecedented power grabs all the time. But that would mean working with Democrats, and we can't have that. Thus they prove themselves to be the hypocrites that they are. Again.

[Hydra]

68. This is a Republican program

Continued by a supposedly (D) President.

Why would they complain unless they thought the program was safe. They felt safe voting against the ACA because they knew it would pass but they were safe to vote against it and criticize. This policy is an open question now- not a lot of support and a lot of heat. They need to throw support behind it or watch it sink back under the waves.

[Waiting For Everyman]

73. Even though that's very true, a few more Repubs have made public statements against NSA.

Not a lot of course, and they didn't sign the letter. I didn't expect they would though. The few who did sign are a surprise to me.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023141615

Jeff Flake, Lee Terry, Sensenbrenner, and a few more who were against it but made the criticism about Obama (par for the course). This was by no means comprehensive, but just a photo gallery put together by Politico. Probably just a sampling they had at hand.

[AzDar]

69. K & R

[Enthusiast]

70. Kicked and Recommended!

Now we will find out if this "democracy" still exists.

[yurbud]

71. so when will the posts start attacking their personal life and calling them glory seeking punks?

and anyone who agrees "worshippers"?

[NorthCarolina]

112. All in good time,

all in good time. The ad hominem attacks are being prepared now and will be distributed to the troops who will subsequently release them in a coordinated fashion with much high-fiving and back patting.

[yurbud]

114. and they won't notice that nobody gives a shit except those already inclined to dislike the targets

anyway.

[DevonRex]

74. And the numbers don't add up to an amendment, just like in December.

In December, back when it was extended, several amendments were proposed in the Senate and all failed. Thus we have the current set of laws. Personally, I could get behind some of the proposed changes, but not all of them. Off the top of my head there was one I didn't like, about emergency situations having to be linked to an authorized ongoing investigation. I can see a new and unknown threat necessitating immediate action. So I would leave that section as is.

[FiveGoodMen]

75. There is no such thing as a secret body of law in a Democracy

Where the people rule (that's what democracy means), the people make and know the laws.

Let that sink in.

There is absolutely no such thing as a secret body of law in a democracy.

[Waiting For Everyman]

81. And secret courts to go with it.

Secret courts that issue classified opinions that nobody can read.

It really is quite an eye-opener, when you let it sink in, as you say.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

80. Well, there goes the argument that they 'are NOT spying on Americans' - where r the usual suspects?

I'm sure they will ignore this just like everything else.

Thanks for sharing

[Jackpine Radical]

84. They AREN"T spying. They gotta get a secret FISA warrant.

It's only metadata, it's all public anyway.

Ummm,

You're trying to make Obama look like a liar. You're a racist. You date pole dancers. Snowden is a creep. Hastings is an alcoholic druggie. What you got in those boxes in your garage?

Look--Squirrel!

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

85. Isn't it just pathetic the lengths they will go to to justify this wrong-doing!

I know some of it is being blinded by partisanship, but it is also due to folks being on the payroll to spread disinfo in order to disrupt.

Fortunately, DU is waaaaay smarter than the average... Squirrel!

[Waiting For Everyman]

87. You forgot that Snowden's a dropout.

I think that's what they hate the most.

(What squirrel? Where? Dammit, I missed it again!)

[Waiting For Everyman]

86. Yes, I noticed too this thread is refreshingly free of the Usual Baloney and back rollers.

Maybe they went out to lunch, or had to check their parking meters, or some such. Gee, I hope they find their way home sometime.

I'll do a "now playing" for them as encouragement.

YW

[lumberjack_jeff]

89. That is high on the list of three words that should not be used together.

How do you give a person a public trial for violating a secret law?

You can't, of course, which leads to secret trials, which of course requires secret prisons... prisons which no doubt play Lee Greenwood tunes in the cells.

[limpyhobbler]

91. we probably shouldn't have secret laws, they make the country seem creepy. nt

[Go Vols]

113. +1

[suffragette]

92. Both of my Senators for WA signed

And I am glad to see them representing us.

[aquart]

97. Secret laws? Wrong for democracy. Wrong for me.

Patriot Act needs to be withdrawn in toto. Secret and known. Then vote for each security measure individually, because they need to be discussed.

HOW CAN SECRET LAW BE CONSTITUTIONAL?

[Go Vols]

99. kick

[Agony]

104. Hey Max! We Need More Buses!

Kick and Rec

[sabrina 1]

106. Excellent, this gives me hope that some of our elected officials are finally feeling free to

speak out. Thanks to Snowden for freeing them to do what should have been done long ago.

[marions ghost]

109. K&R

---

[westerebus]

110. Where the f*ck are the Senators from Virginia?

[Hubert Flottz]

111. And

Where the fuck are the "Senators" from West Virginia?

[westerebus]

119. It's down right embarrassing.

Warner and Rockefeller both sit on the intelligence committee.

[toby jo]

117. Getting to the crux of things - good job.

[Buzz Clik]

118. Why is this number not 100?

Why not the full House rising up??

Because, select committees knew. They were informed in the Bush era. They've been informed under Obama.

I was outraged under Bush43, but I'm fresh out of outrage on this subject.

[Douglas Carpenter]

120. kinr

[blkmusclmachine]

121. POLICE STATE

[silvershadow]

122. Question: If all laws are passed by Congress, how can a body of law be secret? nt

[jonthebru]

123. A link through the Guardian to the actual letter

Actually a very good read.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2013/jun/28/senators-letter-james-clapper

[Warren DeMontague]

124. Sure, make it harder for the Gov't to use the Patriot Act to arrest granny for smoking weed.

Let the terrorists win, why don'cha.

http://boingboing.net/2011/09/07/patriot-act-search-warrants-overwhelmingly-used-for-drugs.html

[silvershadow]

128. I'm still waiting for an answer, so I will gladly bump this. Wish I could rec again. These Senators

need to be contacted by everyoneagain and again by email, snail mail, phone whatever to find more answers. If they're not getting them and acting like they are on top of things, they might face a backlash. Let them knowhow you feel, and that they are doing the right thing. (It lets them know they're on the right track and you've got their back too). Just a thought...