NSA-leaker Snowden defects to Russia

[warrior1]

http://americablog.com/2013/07/nsa-leaker-snowden-defects-to-russia.html

I’ve said my piece about Edward Snowden. Seeking political asylum with one of America’s great foes – a country that routinely abuses the human rights of its citizens far more than anything anyone can claim about America – is a slap in the face to everything Snowden claims he cares about.

You do not run into the hands of the Russians if you’re a hero fighting for freedom, transparency and democracy.



Russian police detain a gay rights activist during an attempt to hold the unauthorized gay pride parade on May 28, 2011 in Moscow, Russia. kojoku / Shutterstock.com


I guarantee you the Russians are not doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. They are going to milk Snowden for every secret they can get. And judging by the reports of what Snowden stole from his last job, the damage to our national security might in fact be quite real if the Russians get their hands on this material, if they haven’t already.

snip

[bunnies]

1. But he'll have to stop leaking to stay there.

At least according to Putin. So now the question: Will this "wistleblower" stop blowing the whistle in order to cover his ass? We'll see.

[Luminous Animal]

3. Everything he had is in the hands of the news media now. He has nothing left to leak.

The decision of what to publish or withhold is now entirely up to them.

[bunnies]

9. Good point.

I wonder why he would do it that way though, if it was so important that it all got out. Why leave it up to someone else? I cant seem to make any sense of this.

[Luminous Animal]

11. That's the way he wanted it. He trusted the expertise of the Guardian, its editors,

and its reporters. He said that he preferred that info which would reveal identities or specific methods were better left redacted or unpublished.

[bunnies]

12. Thanks.

I didnt know that.

[Luminous Animal]

14. You're welcome!

[Tarheel_Dem]

2. Russia's newest Comrade.

[kentuck]

4. To be factual...

Russia was not his first choice. But America closed all other options for him after many declared him a "traitor".

He could have requested to come back to America and sit in prison and wait for his "justice", perhaps with a little torture on the side?

He made the decision to make the information public. Now he will have to pay the price. He is doing what most people would do that might be in his shoes. He is doing what he thinks is best for Edward Snowden.

[railsback]

17. Oh, I thought he doing what he thinks best for America

[kentuck]

26. Perhaps he did?

But now, he is doing what he thinks is best for Edward Snowden. They are not necessarily exclusive.

[railsback]

35. That's like throwing yourself on a grenade and then changing your mind

At least if you go through with it and blow up, then people will know your intentions were pure. His running away undermined everything. Seeking asylum in an oppressive country undermines it even more. And then there's Greenwald. Like or not, messaging is extremely important, no matter how much people hate that reality.

[kentuck]

46. Perhaps, unlike you, he had been reading the papers?

He knew what was happening to Bradley Manning and anyone else that tried to expose what our government was doing.

When you throw yourself on a hand grenade, you still try to throw it away from yourself, rather than wait for it to explode. Unless you are a fool with a death wish...

[railsback]

91. Again, you undermine his conviction

Selflessness and self preservation are oil and water.

[Sheepshank]

50. Traitor? The US hasn't declared that at all.

unless you have info to back up that assertion.

Apparently and according to Lawrence O'Donnell the reason Snowden HASN'T been labelled a traitor is that he has not divulged privileged secret info to a nation with whom we are at war (requirements of being declared a traitor). Congress has not declared war with China, Russia or GB for that matter.

Perhpas you are attempting to help out Snowden by asserting he threw himself into the arms of another nation because there are other US citizens that don't agree with his actions and they are calling him a traitor...of course realizing that a citizens declaration doesn't actually make it so. So, how does the timeline on that one work when he left the country before his whistlblowin? Seriously, how is this traitor thing really supposed to work in the context of your post?

So if you have information instead of making up shit...I'd love to read about it.

[kentuck]

69. "...many declared him a "traitor". "

You have a problem with reading comprehension?

[Sheepshank]

89. I have no problem with reading comprehension...you asserted

that Snowden bolted into the arms of the Chinese or Russians because he was being labelled a traitor. He was in the arms of the Chinese even before anyone knew what he was doing....before the "many" called him anything of the sort.

So please clarify exactly why you are not making up shit....again.

[emulatorloo]

5. Pretty tough piece by John Aravosis

He makes some good points. Thanks for posting, you are probably in for some pretty nasty name calling.

[warrior1]

6. Thanks I'm used to it

[LittleBlue]

7. What a load of sh**

You do not run into the hands of the Russians if you’re a hero fighting for freedom, transparency and democracy.

You do when all your applications for asylum are turned down and you're stuck there. The alternative is to return to the US and be guaranteed to spend the rest of his life in solitary confinement.

He didn't choose Russia, he wanted Iceland or Ecuador. But they turned him down and no one else will take him.

Whoever wrote this is a liar. A slimy, sleazy smear merchant. He didn't choose Russia, he's stuck there.

[MineralMan]

13. He didn't choose Russia.

He chose to release classified information. That was the choice he made. Apparently, though, he didn't think through what might happen next. Now, he's finding out. Things will not go well for him, I think. The Russians will find him some sort of apartment and pay for his basic survival needs, and then he'll be forgotten by everyone.

He planned poorly is what Snowden did. He listened to people who did not have his well-being as their highest priority. He is not a good student of human behavior and avarice. Now, he reaps the results and has no more to offer anyone. He is without currency.

[LittleBlue]

20. That has nothing to do with the OP, another red herring

I point out that he's in Russia because he's stuck there, and you go off about choosing to release classified information.

The US will reap just rewards when he turns over those laptops to Russian intel.

[MineralMan]

21. Doubtful. I think you don't understand

the intelligence community very well.

[LittleBlue]

25. You do? lol

I'm talking with a real pro here, it seems.

Another internet "expert"

[MineralMan]

28. I'll leave you to your ideas about that.

It doesn't matter to me, really.

[randome]

29. You do know he actually worked for the USAF, right?

I'd say his experience is more than you or I will ever have.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[LittleBlue]

30. Internet credentials?

Really?

[MineralMan]

39. I worked at the NSA while in the USAF.

I was assigned there, so there I was. I left when my enlistment was up, turning down a job offer doing the same thing I had been doing, because I didn't like what I learned there very much. You can believe me or not believe me. That's your deal. I don't care, you see.

[LittleBlue]

47. "I don't care, you see."

That sums up my interest in where you claim to have worked. Or for that matter, anyone making claims about themselves on an anonymous forum.

[MineralMan]

49. For more information, see this link:

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/10022970771

Beyond that, I'm done with this.

[LittleBlue]

56. Interesting story

I'm done with this.

Good

[MineralMan]

57. :shrug:

[DevonRex]

92. He did work there. There are a number of ex-MI people here who

worked directly with NSA, whose work would not have been possible without it, and who likely did a stint there even if it was only TDY a few times.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

85. lol - do you know what NSA 4? Never Say Anything

But you can't help yourself, I'm sure just what they were looking for

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

84. USN here, and both have nothing to do with NSA

He just likes to pretend online, about a lot of stuff, pretty pathetic, really... concerned citizen isn't good enough for him

[randome]

87. Actually he says he worked at the NSA while with the USAF.

Which is why I was momentarily confused. But hey, all any of us can do is evaluate based on the authenticity of our posts. MineralMan is authentic, in my opinion.

Until you give me reason to think otherwise, I think you are, too.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[randome]

24. Thousands and thouands of PowerPoint slides!

Oh! The humanity!

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[LittleBlue]

27. Wasn't he a systems administrator

It will be funny when he tells them detailed information about the structure of PRISM

[randome]

32. Funny he and Greenwald led off with a PowerPoint slide.

I know you keep hoping there is more to embarrass the country but there most likely is not.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[LittleBlue]

33. Well, we just had info about spying on the EU

straight from Snowden published in Der Spiegel. You could have said that a week ago and been wrong. You're probably wrong now.

[randome]

36. I am so embarrassed my country spies on other countries that spy on us.

Not. This is the last we will hear of Moscow Eddie. Not so much Greenwald, though. I'm sure he feels like everything is going according to his plan.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[LittleBlue]

42. Face it

You don't have a clue whether what you're saying is true, do you?

It's merely false confidence, and not very convincing at that.

[randome]

45. I'm confident Snowden is a buffoon.

Surely you can separate yourself from Snowden and at least appreciate the irony of running to hide in Moscow after saying he wasn't trying to hide from justice!

It's like 10th level irony here!

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[former9thward]

40. So all of the Obama administration

has been lying about the harm he has caused to the U.S. ok....

[randome]

43. Please, that's been rehashed to death.

You never steal classified documents and hand them over to another country. We don't know exactly what he took with him but if it's anything like the lame PowerPoint slides, then it's nothing.

But, again, we really don't know what he stole.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[former9thward]

51. "We" meaning the adminstration does know what he stole.

You and I don't.

[randome]

58. True. Although I think they merely had a good idea and didn't narrow it all down.

There are probably network logs that show his access.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Mojorabbit]

64. You are behind on your reading.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3142138

[LittleBlue]

66. Thank you

I missed that!

[Galraedia]

79. Maybe he should have stayed in Hong Kong.

Either way Snowdick is a pretty useless idiot for running to a nation that spies on its own people and commits way more human rights violations than the United States.

[Thinkingabout]

88. Did he choose to intentionally accept a job in order to collect the information he wanted?

Did he choose to inform his supervisor he was going to China to get medical treatment?
Did he choose to give the information to the Guardian?
When the US stated they are charging him with espionage did he attempt to return to the US

These are questions he should have thought about before the made the moves were made. What every the results turns out for Snowden he can look to himself. He will not be pulling the stunts in Russia he has here, they have good fixes and he will not be seeking medical treatment.

This is some of the best results the US could ask for, we don't have to transport him back to the US, spend money on a costly trial and the cost of incarceration.

[former9thward]

37. "no more to offer anyone"

He obviously is very bright and he will have no problem getting a good paying job working for someone. Despite your wishes.

[randome]

41. So bright he couldn't read a PowerPoint slide.

So bright he didn't understand what a secure FTP server is. So bright he never thought to get evidence of his claims.

Bye, bye, Eddie. Live it up, comrade!

Come on, surely you have to see the irony here. Snowden whining about the NSA and then running to hide in Hong Kong and then Moscow after saying he wasn't trying to hide from justice.

The irony is awesome!

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[former9thward]

48. Too bad you weren't posting when the Penagon Papers came out.

You could have cheered on Nixon and Agnew trying to jail Daniel Ellsberg.

[randome]

54. At least Ellsberg had supporting documentation. What did Snowden have?

PowerPoint slides!

Anyone who has ever worked in an office environment knows that PowerPoint presentations are toys for bureaucrats, not details on how to 'watch our thoughts form as we type' as Snowden claimed.

Ellsberg had a ton of evidence, the Pentagon Papers themselves. Snowden had PowerPoint slides. That's like comparing Godzilla to Bambi.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[former9thward]

61. Why you think all Snowden has is PP slides is bizarre to say the least.

When something else gets released you will dismiss that also.

[randome]

67. I will dismiss it if it is as lame as his PowerPoint slides.

I very much pride myself on reversing course no matter where the evidence leads. So far, Snowden's 'evidence' has not impressed me.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[MineralMan]

44. Yes...well...we'll see.

Or we won't. Have you seen the warren of high-rise apartment buildings in Moscow? A guy could disappear in there and never be heard from again. There are lots of very bright people everywhere. That guarantees nothing in the way of a job, as many here on DU will tell you. He does have a bit of a deficit in the trustworthiness category, too. That might limit his job offers, I'd think, too.

[former9thward]

60. Yes I have been to Moscow but much prefer St. Petersberg.

No, people with the skills that Snowden has are not out of work anywhere.

[emulatorloo]

16. Poor planning on Snowden's part does not diminish Aravosis' cred

Nor does a shit-fit by a hyped-up DU'er. He's got a different opinion on the story than you. That's how it is in the U.S.

[LittleBlue]

23. It has nothing to do with an opinion, he is factually wrong

And intentionally misleading readers.

[randome]

18. Even Wikileaks didn't want him!

Snowden, der kommissar!



[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[snooper2]

38. LOL

Poor Snowden, I thought he was a GENIUS!

An IT Superkid who is one step ahead of the administration!


Now, he just needs a bed to sleep in. Well, he has one, and he made it

[Mojorabbit]

62. I agree. He ran out of options. nt

[MineralMan]

8. If that's true, it was probably with approval

by the US. Russia will quickly end this mess if Snowden submits to asylum there. He simply won't have any further media access, and will be treated as the useful idiot he truly is.

[Luminous Animal]

10. Asylum and defection are two entirely different things. Check your dictionary.

[grasswire]

15. words have meaning.

And to say he "defected" is simply not true.

[frylock]

19. another picture of a protestor being detained and abused by the russian police..

oopsie! this is in amerika!

[flamingdem]

78. Difference is that the protester was no doubt released quickly

and in Russia they might be locked away for a few years

[CakeGrrl]

22. Anything to avoid jail time

Looks like he only wants the upsides of 'heroism'.

[backscatter712]

53. Anything to avoid being supermaxed, "suicide"-watched, waterboarded...

Oh wait, that doesn't happen in the Land of the Free (TM). Just ask Bradley Manning!

[CakeGrrl]

72. He made his bed.

And what exactly did he blow the whistle on? He's running because he's doing damage to foreign relations, not because he exposed illegality.

[Melinda]

75. *Ahem* You forgot to mention force-feedings.

Although I don't know that happens in 'Merica, I have heard it happens in Guantanamo. Couldn't happen in 'Merica, right? Right. What a crazy fucked up Land of the Free (TM) we have become indeed.

[kentuck]

31. He may be a whistle-blower but he ain't no fool.

Why volunteer to be imprisoned by known torturers and water-boarders? Oh, just wait until the Russians get through with him, right?

Too bad there is not a law to protect "whistle-blowers", huh?

[CakeGrrl]

76. Except he isn't a "whistle-blower"

as much as some would like to elevate him to that status.

What did he expose that was illegal?

What did he expose that wasn't already known?

People who think he blew the lid off anything simply choose to believe that the "could happen" IS happening. There's no proof that Americans are being targeted without warrants or without reasonable cause.

[kentuck]

82. "What did he expose that wasn't already known?"

Really??

[backscatter712]

34. Tu Quoque logical fallacy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

Tu quoque /tuːˈkwoʊkwiː/,[1] (Latin for "you, too" or "you, also&quot or the appeal to hypocrisy, is a logical fallacy that attempts to discredit the opponent's position by asserting the opponent's failure to act consistently in accordance with that position; it attempts to show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it. This dismisses someone's point of view based on criticism of the person's inconsistency, and not the position presented,[2] whereas a person's inconsistency should not discredit their position. Thus, it is a form of the ad hominem argument.[3] To clarify, although the person being attacked might indeed be acting inconsistently or hypocritically, this does not invalidate his argument.

And that's on top of the bad framing and loaded language.

LOGIC FAIL.

[1-Old-Man]

52. On what day did asking for Asylum and Defecting become the same thing?

[galileoreloaded]

55. failpost. I wonder about the age spread of Snowden lovers/haters.

i suspect it falls neatly at the Boomer/GenX line.

[kentuck]

59. You may be on to something...

Boomers remember Watergate. And J. Edgar Hoover. And JFK, RFK, and MLK. And the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution...etc...

[randome]

71. And some simply have an objective frame of mind no matter their age.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[galileoreloaded]

73. lol. all realtionships are conditional. even political ones.

objectivity, like control is an illusion.

[randome]

74. True, everyone has their own definition of 'objective'.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[randome]

63. The irony is out of this world!

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Hell Hath No Fury]

65. "Edward Snowden asking 15 countries for asylum, Russian official says"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014523954

By Sergei L. Loiko
July 1, 2013, 5:43 a.m.

MOSCOW -- Edward Snowden, the former National Security Agency contractor who leaked U.S. security secrets and is now a fugitive, met Monday morning with Russian diplomatic officials and handed them an appeal to 15 countries for political asylum, a Russian Foreign Ministry official told The Times.

“It was a desperate measure on his part after Ecuador disavowed his political protection credentials,” said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity. ”In the document Snowden reiterated once again that he is not a traitor and explained his actions only by a desire to open the world’s eyes on the flagrant violations by U.S. special services not only of American citizens but also citizens of European Union including their NATO allies.”

The official didn’t disclose the countries that were on the list. The meeting took place at Moscow's Sheremetyevo International Airport, where Snowden has apparently holed up in a transit lounge since fleeing from Hong Kong while seeking a route to Ecuador or somewhere else that might grant him asylum.

Kirill Kabanov, a member of the Presidential Council on Human Rights, a Kremlin advisory body, said he believes that Russia is on the list.

[Cleita]

68. A little off topic, but your picture shows what we do to health care activists, Occupy and

those who opposed the Republicans with peaceful protest at their convention. Even Amy Goodman got roughed up by the McCain/RNC goons. Until we clean our own house, I don't think we should be going over the Russian's baseboards with white gloves. No I don't approve of them beating up gay activists, but I don't approve of us beating up our Occupy activists either.

[KoKo]

80. Agree, Cleita... We used to think that only went on in Soviet Union...but, alas..

it's come here to roost.

[JPZenger]

70. He told the Chinese which computer systems the US had successfully hacked

[David__77]

77. What a load of shit.

"You do not run into the hands of the Russians if you’re a hero fighting for freedom, transparency and democracy."

That is utter and complete nonsense. And I need know nothing of Snowden's case to see that. If someone is a fighter for freedom, there's nothing wrong, in itself, in taking refuge anywhere.

[randome]

81. "I am not here to hide from justice."

Come on, you can admit that was a stupid thing for him to say, right?

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[kentuck]

83. No.

The stupid thing is your idea of "justice"...

[Sheepshank]

90. Really into the name calling today...aren't you?

how about discussing without insulting?

[randome]

86. Putin could still pull a Hong Kong Switch and claim the request wasn't filled out correctly.

Maybe the Snowden Saga is not yet over.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[xchrom]

93. the U.S. is the Queen of the Gulags now

http://www.aclu.org/safe-communities-fair-sentences/prison-crisis

THE NUMBERS:
With only 5% of the world’s population, the U.S. has 25% of the world’s prison population – that makes us the world’s largest jailer.
Since 1970, our prison population has risen 700%.
One in 99 adults are living behind bars in the U.S. This marks the highest rate of imprisonment in American history.
One in 31 adults are under some form of correctional control, counting prison, jail, parole and probation populations.


In America, our criminal justice system should keep communities safe and treat people fairly, regardless of the color of their skin or the size of their bank account. in order for our system to do a good job, it must be cost-effective by using our taxpayer dollars and public resources wisely, in an evidence-based rather than fear-based manner.


***if it moves we jail it.






***for the holier than thou among us.