General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAbout Top Secret Intelligence Briefing Documents
So far, the stuff released by Snowden, et al, are briefing documents, mostly in the form of PowerPoint slides. There seems to be some confusion about how such documents are used and how and why they are classified. Here are some points about that:
The briefing documents are classified Top Secret /SI/NOFORN. While that may well seem like a very high classification, in fact it is not. And there's a reason those documents have that classification, and not a higher level that would indicate compartmented information with only need-to-know access.
The reason is that they're designed for use in briefing people outside of the intelligence community. People like Congress members and Senators. The classification is there in large part to impress those people with themselves and to indicate that this is VERY IMPORTANT information that is being shown to them exclusively. The reality is that the same documents are used to brief new hires and others who will be working for that and other agencies. They provide an low-level overview of programs, but few details. That's because the people who will see them do not have clearance to see any more than that.
The reality is that the Top Secret classification isn't even needed. If you take any of the programs mentioned in those briefing documents and search for the name of the program in Wikipedia, you'll learn more about that program than what is disclosed in those briefing documents. Most of them have been discussed publicly, and often Requests for Proposals for vendors that disclose even more are available with a Google search.
Few people discussing the documents released by Snowden, Greenwald, and the Guardian appear to have even read those simple documents thoroughly. That is evidenced by few people discussing the safeguards and other limitations on those programs that are described in the same documents. Few people are mentioning that content in discussions here and elsewhere.
What has been disclosed is "look-see" information. Congress, for example, has to provide funding for the NSA and other intelligence agencies. Congress insists that they be "thoroughly briefed" on such agencies and their operations. So, documents like the ones leaked by Snowden are prepared for those purposes. They reveal the existence of programs, outline the function of such programs, and describe safeguards and limitations of such programs. They're designed to inform minimally, but not to reveal much. They are typical of all sorts of PowerPoint presentations, and give just enough information to satisfy people who have oversight or funding power and nothing more.
The reality is that those who see those presentations, including most of those who have seen them after they were leaked, don't really pay a lot of attention during the presentations. Most don't really care about the details. Lunch is coming soon. So, they get their egos massaged by having "TOP SECRET" information presented to them and learn a few bullet points. Their need to know is limited, and these documents provide everything they are cleared to know. Beyond that, the door is closed and those looking at these briefing documents do not have the entry codes to open it.
For those interested in the documents and what they reveal, it is important to read them thoroughly and not to rely on others to "interpret" them for you. Read them completely and think about what they reveal and who they were designed to educate. There's not a lot of information in them, really, as you will find if you extend your search on Google, where you will find much more information at reliable websites. Hint: You'll also find a lot of incorrect information on unreliable websites.
But, realize that what you are looking at is sanitized, carefully planned, and very limited in what it reveals. Consider who is the audience for those documents, and you'll understand that they merely skim over the very basics, just like all such PowerPoint briefing presentations. They are not designed to actually provide classified information. They merely are classified as TOP SECRET for effect, and the desired effect is to make those who see those documents feel like they are special and have privilege.
They reveal very little, and only what is intended to be revealed to outsiders to the intelligence community. If you're impressed by them, you shouldn't be. Much more information is readily available without any clearance at all.
longship
(40,416 posts)And readily verifiable by The Google.
I always thought it was funny that Snowden was releasing PowerPoint slides and not detailed documents.
Methinks that this may be much ado...
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)had access to them, and hasn't even seen them. He may know that such documents exist, but would not have been able to access them. Access is highly compartmentalized at all intelligence agencies, and controls are tight. Snowden would only have been to access materials up to a certain level, and then his access would have been blocked.
In fact, attempts to access documents beyond your level is logged and tracked down. This may have been why Snowden took off. He may have raised some red flags by trying to access what he was not cleared to access. That stuff is taken very seriously, and always has been.
longship
(40,416 posts)I never actually worked within a black hole, but am aware of some of the procedures.
I also have long experience in science and IT fields where documents are written on technical topics such as are described in Snowden's releases.
These documents do not strike me as anything detailed enough to be anything but what you describe. They are overviews with few if any details. I see much in them that is subject to misinterpretation. Ambiguous terminology, etc.
Typical of PowerPoint presentations.
Thanks for this thread. It is right on target.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)It's difficult to explain just how much security was in place and how difficult access to anything above your level of clearance would be. I've seen briefing documents just like those when being briefed in to working there.
There's far more information out there on the Internet, and accurate information, too. Still, there's lots and lots of bullshit that passes for information. It can be difficult to tell the two apart, so careful attention to the reputation of the source for accuracy over time is needed before trusting any of it.
A lot of people are confused and think they're getting hot, scarce information in this leaked material. The reality is that most of it is readily available as unclassified information. The Top Secret designation on that stuff is a smoke screen.
HipChick
(25,485 posts)Sharepoint site..
Even with TS Clearance, it still takes a long time to get actual access to systems and even then it's not Carte Blanche..
I still say this guy has been blowing smoke since Day 1
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)cleared for Top Secret access. Those documents may well be available to anyone with access to any part of the system. I don't know. When I was there, desktops had typewriters, not computers. The computers were elsewhere.
The security system, however, has probably not changed materially.
randome
(34,845 posts)And that's why he simply copied as much as he could and ran for the hills.
He probably planned to get deeper access but his lack of evidence for his claims paradoxically is evidence that the security setup at NSA functions well.
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[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
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longship
(40,416 posts)Still the scope of it all is still disturbing, but as many here have pointed out, it's been reported for years.
Not that I want it to continue. But neither party seems willing to stop it.
Thanks, MM.
Best regards.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)People can take it for whatever they think it is worth. I do recommend doing some Googling, though, if they think I'm blowing smoke on this.
longship
(40,416 posts)Plus it matches my biases.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)So, theres a 41-slide deck, Miller said in the CBS This Morning interview. The Washington Post has (published) four weve seen those in the paper. The Guardian has published some different slides and some the same. But theres the wild card of whats in the rest of that presentation.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/06/cbs-washington-post-talks-to-feds-on-nsa-slides-92638.html
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)Much like what has already been released. The NSA takes how they present briefings very seriously, and presentations like this would be checked and double-checked to make sure nothing really highly classified is released in them.
Even Presidential briefings are controlled. Nobody sees everything there is.
moondust
(19,993 posts)that the Chinese, Russians, etc., wouldn't have much interest in this info because it's superficial?
I haven't looked at any of this stuff closely but my own concern was that the "spying on Americans" suggestion was setting off all the fireworks but there may be more detailed stuff of real intelligence value buried deeper in the documents which, when made public, could be damaging.
I'm not sure any of this works like it used to since so much has been outsourced to private corporate interests. I tend to suspect the worst.
EDIT: You don't have to reply if you don't want to. The company will disavow your actions.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)Do some Wikipedia searching on terms from those documents and you'll see why.
There have always been private contractors involved with US Intelligence operations. It's not so much outsourcing as sideways sourcing.
Brother Buzz
(36,444 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)I bet he was a good target for time-share companies, too.
[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]
Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)Why are the presentations themselves classified as Top Secret? Why are so many so determined to try Snowden for Treason if all he did was take information intended for outsiders? Come on, if you're going to make an argument minimizing it, make it a good one.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)I explained why in the body of my original post.
You're more than welcome to take this post anyway you wish.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)It doesn't matter that specific individuals are calling that treason; they're not the ones who will be charging him.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)At most, he'll be charged for releasing classified materials to non-cleared people and outside of the US. Those are serious charges, and I can't see any path for Snowden to be acquitted on them.
The outsiders those documents are intended for is not the general public. It is for people who have a legitimate need to know about programs. That's primarily Congress, administration officials, and contract vendors, to some degree. That's who they're intended for, and they provide only the basics of organization, function, limitations and scope of the programs they discuss. They're classified at the level they are to limit distribution, but that's all. They contain no real details...just basic briefing information.
Not treason, but illegal to release to people not authorized to see them.
That said, information about most of the programs is readily available, and has been for some time. There is a public aspect of the basic information, and some of what is in those documents is already available to the general public. But not all of it. The classification has a function, and that function has been violated by Snowden's release of the documents.
formercia
(18,479 posts)It could me no more than one of the Code-names mention in the document is classified as Top Secret but the rest could be FOUO (For Official use only). Thus, the whole Document is Classified Top Secret.
There are often cases where individual Sentences or paragraphs in a document have their own classification to differentiate the more sensitive items in a Document.
The Officer who classifies a Document has a lot of latitude in determining the classification level. I had rubber stamps for various classification levels in my desk. All I had to do was stamp the document and write-in my badge number and the deed was done. This is why the plethora of classified material floating around. Things, such as Newspaper articles grouped together, none of which are classified, but taken together show a focus of interest on a given person or subject, which would be classified in itself.
usGovOwesUs3Trillion
(2,022 posts)Always with a pro gov bias, or the former NSA employees with actual firsthand knowledge.
Good advice
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)And that's fine with me.
usGovOwesUs3Trillion
(2,022 posts)Just your online behavior and habits which have been consistently biased, pseudo-official pronouncements, full of empty callories.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)First off, contrary to your assertion, those slides ARE compartmentalized. Gawd, the rest is just the type of word salad one finds over at Freeperville. #FAIL
Top Secret: Public disclosure of the document would cause 'exceptionally grave damage' to national security.
SI: Special Intelligence, formerly known as COMINT or COMmunications INTelligence, which means being part of a control system for Sensitive Compartmented Information (SCI)
Orcon: ORiginator CONtrolled, meaning the originator controls dissemination and/or release of the document. These are always viewed in secured areas that are cleared for top-secret data and one cannot view or copy such a document without leaving an audit trail.
Noforn: Not releasable to foreign nationals
"merely are classified as TOP SECRET for effect"
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)But, that's OK.
usGovOwesUs3Trillion
(2,022 posts)But you love to pretend to on the www.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)HipChick
(25,485 posts)It's like shearing a pig, lots of squealing, and very little wool or something like that..
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)Life Long Dem
(8,582 posts)Still top secret material leaks will still cause damage to national security as has been said.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)However, the information in those briefing slides is pretty widely known already. Or it should be. Perhaps people in the US haven't been paying attention. I guarantee that other countries have been paying attention, though.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)Here are the committees Bachmann sits on that relate to Intelligence:
Member, Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations
House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence
Member, Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations
Member, Subcommittee on Technical and Tactical Intelligence
She will have seen the documents Snowden released, during one of the NSA's briefings to those committees, if she bothered to show up for the briefings.
Now, would any sensible intelligence agency provide really sensitive information to Michele Bachmann? Would you? This is why such PowerPoint presentations are prepared in the way they are. Morons abound in Congress. This is why information is limited in such presentations.