Should Obama give Morsi the Mubarak treatment?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

Serious question.

We all remember the Arab Spring. Many had reservations at the speed at which events evolved and warned that groups such as the Muslim Brotherhood would coopt the chaos to advance their own anti-democratic agendas. Though time has proven these voices correct that does NOT diminish the spirit of freedom that originally motivated the protests that drove Mubarak from power.

Obviously that fire for freedom is undiminished in the hearts of the Egyptian people. President Obama, to his tremendous credit, was on the right side of history in his calls for Mubarak to step aside in the name of Democracy. I believe History is presenting President Obama another opportunity to repeat with equal foresight his call for democratic reform.

Should he?

[dipsydoodle]

1. No

Nothing changes the fact that Morsi was democratically elected.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

3. But he is governing in a very undemocratic manner.

One should not use Democracy as a means to kill Democracy.

[dipsydoodle]

4. Nothing to say that wouldn't happen another time round.

The west is judging by its own standards and should keep their noses out.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

8. How many corporatist thugs would you see democratically elected

until you go, "Well, that's the process. I guess we'll just have to learn to live with it."?

Human rights, I've always believed, are universal.

[backscatter712]

5. This. Morsi too needs to be hung on a meathook by his own people. n/t

[Comrade Grumpy]

18. Wow, that's a pretty barbaric way to treat a democratically elected president.

[backscatter712]

20. But if it's done by the people that elected him, then watched him betray them...

...they hey, call me a fan of righteous barbarism!

[bemildred]

2. Obama should offer humanitarian aid and butt out. nt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

6. To which side?

[bemildred]

7. I just said we don't take sides. You give it to people who need it, the UN, Red Crescent, etc.

Sometimes they are even grateful.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

9. The Morsi faction might take umbrage if that aid reaches the anti-Morsi faction.

[bemildred]

10. So? nt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

12. So, they would interpret that as us butting-in in favor of the anti-Morsi faction.

Conversely, the pro-democracy demonstrators would interpret any aid that reached the "government" as the US propping-up yet another corrupt regime.

[bemildred]

13. Right, the ideologues won't like it. Those are the guys we want to ignore.

We want to deal with the people who want to get along, we want to help them.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

14. "We want to deal with the people who want to get along, we want to help them."

These are the people I think President Obama can offer moral support to buttress the humanitarian support you suggested.

[bemildred]

15. I don't understand what you mean,m could you re-phrase that?

[AngryAmish]

11. Egypt is a mess and is going to get much worse

The Muslim Brotherhood does not know how to run a country.

There are lots of young men who can see what the first world has and are enraged that they cannot have it. Yet no one can figure out how to raise living standards.

They had a monarchy - it failed. Socialism failed. Now religious rule is failing.

The opposition are nihilists. They don't know what they want just that the status quo sucks.

Egypt is going to burn. Eventually the army will install a Islamy strongman like Mubarek. It is the only way to have order.

This calls for real diplomacy to look after the US interests but we are not capable of that at the moment.

[Warren Stupidity]

16. Morsi is not a dictator, and what we should do is stay out of Egypt's business.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

17. "Morsi is not a dictator"

The protesters beg to differ, it seems.

[Comrade Grumpy]

19. The fact remains that he was democratically elected.

The first democratically elected leader of Egypt. Ever.

The protestors may be able to force him and the Brotherhood from power. Then what?

Like another poster upthread, I'm guessing a military coup is coming. Otherwise, Egypt falls apart.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

21. A majority vote does not constitute a democratic government.

Morsi is constructing the same sort of system as those who were democratically elected in the US but chose to impose Jim Crowe (sp?) laws.

[Warren Stupidity]

32. That is their business, not ours.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

33. When Mubarak was on the outs people cheered.

What changed?

[Warren Stupidity]

36. You've been told repeatedly why this is different.

Mubarak was our guy. A dictator we backed for decades. Morsi was elected in a nominally democratic process. If the Egyptian people desire to nullify that election on the streets, that is their business. We have no responsibility for Morsi being in power and this no responsibility to take a side in this event. But you know that.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

40. Orval Faubus was also democratically elected.

Civil process must never be used as an excuse for blind obedience to manifest injustice. I doubt you view the MB as the exemplars of justice.

[former9thward]

22. The OP is an insult to the Egyptian people.

Obama did not overthrow Mubarak and nothing he says will decide Morsi's fate. Obama made his comments on Mubarak very late in the game after it was all but over.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

23. You'll notice there have been no edits to my OP.

Please cite where I even came close to suggesting Obama "overthrew" Mubarak or likened it to a criticism or ever diminished the virtues of the Egyptian people.

[former9thward]

24. Everyone can read.

The title of your OP certainly implies that Obama has control. Quit dancing around.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

25. I unabashedly own my OP, title and all.

The body of the OP speaks to a higher idealism and a hope for genuine reform rather than the sad façade of democracy co-opted by the MB. I believe the Egyptian people want real freedom and I think President Obama played an important and necessary part in giving his moral support to their voices. I would like to see him do so again.

That being said, I'm at a loss to explain how anything I wrote can be construed as uncomplimentary to the President or the Egyptian people.

[former9thward]

26. You give the President credit and I don't think there is any basis for it.

I think President Obama played an important and necessary part in giving his moral support to their voices. Well if Obama did it then he owns the aftermath. I don't saddle him with that however because whatever he said was not really important and certainly not necessary to the 'Arab Spring.'

[Nuclear Unicorn]

27. You may not give the President credit but I do; again, unabashedly so.

I'm stunned that my compliment of the President is suddenly grounds for a complaint against me.

Nor do I saddle him with the aftermath. The MB pushed their way into power. Obama did not push them.

A consistent, steady, unwavering voice for democracy and universal human rights has to sounded. Why not President Obama? Isn't that what the just-concluded trip to South Africa was partly about or were those just photo-ops by just another strutting politician?

[former9thward]

28. The trip to Africa was about resources.

The Chinese are in Africa grabbing resources all over. Obama wants to make sure the U.S. gets a piece.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

29. .

[Duckwraps]

30. Absolutely not. We should stay the hell out of it

and let events take there course.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

31. Silence will be seen as a defense of Morsi.

[Duckwraps]

34. You are probably right but

what position can we take?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

35. We need not champion a faction, only our ideals.

Democracy.
Peaceful redress of grievances.
Human rights.
Equality under the law.

Say it over and over again until everyone believes it -- including us.

[Warren Stupidity]

37. How would you intervene?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

38. I've never petitioned for intervention.

I would have the President visibly speak to the ideals of the pro-democracy protesters. He needn't name any faction or persona. We need not send any military hardware or offer threats of withholding aid or supplying such-and-such. Just speak to what we all hope for: peace, democracy, equality; plainly and without hesitation.

I think that alone will carry the tide.

[Warren Stupidity]

39. We already send boatloads of military hardware.

Intervention of any sort could be seen as a greenlight to the military to use that hardware to re-assert control of the government.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

42. I meant it in the terms of equipping protesters or any such things some other party might

falsely accuse me of endorsing. It must be admitted that wild accusations can occur.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

43. Yes.

Is that the sole criteria for governmental legitimacy?