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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe lesser included manslaughter charge, and why the Zimmerman case ISN'T Casey Anthony redux
People keep obsessing that the state somehow "overcharged" Zimmerman with the 2nd Degree Murder charge (which does require proof of a callous disregard for human life but does not require proof of premeditation like 1st Degree does) but forget that even if Zimmerman is acquitted of 2nd Degree Murder he could still be convicted of Manslaughter (which merely requires that Zimmerman reckless actions caused Martin's death.)
There's a fine line between callous disregard for life and recklessness, but arguably both are still on the table. The state does not have to prove that Zimmerman set out to kill Trayvon.
An example where the state did overcharge was the Casey Anthony murder case, where she was charged with 1st Degree, premeditated capital murder. Not that Casey didn't lie to investigators (to which she was convicted) and that her actions weren't suspicious and stunk to high heavens. However, in that case, the remains of Caylee had deteriorated so much when they were found that it was impossible to get an exact cause of death. Could have been intentional murder, could have been recklessness, could have been negligence, might even have been totally natural--it just wasn't clear. For whatever reason, the state decided to proceed with 1st Degree murder and make the argument that Casey intentionally killed her daughter because she wanted to resume her old partying lifestyle. That certainly was a plausible argument to make, but without an actual cause of death, it was all just speculation.
Of course, even a manslaughter conviction was hard to get for Anthony because the state had pretty much locked itself into the story that Casey intentionally killed her daughter and that was the story they chose to present to the jury. Arguing that Caylee died due to some act of recklessness or negligence and then Casey covered it up (also quite a plausible theory) was something of an afterthought after the state had spent so much effort claiming Caylee's death was 1st degree premeditated murder. (Not to mention that even in light of manslaughter, the state still couldn't definitively show the cause of death, so that still would have been a major obstacle to overcome even with a lower bar of culpability).
Here, the question of whether Zimmerman acted merely recklessly or with callous disregard for Travyon's life is a much closer question. Plus we are dealing with a smaller set of disputed facts. Unlike Casey Anthony (and OJ Simpson) we aren't dealing with a Defendant who is denying committing the homicide. So there's no talk of alibis or whodunit--it's a straight whydunit.
So all the concerns that Zimmerman was "overcharged" or that this case is the next Casey Anthony/OJ Simpson case is overwrought, IMHO. For now, let's trust the legal system.
Little Star
(17,055 posts)Casey Anthony. They seem to have trouble with lesser charges and also with evaluating circumstantial evidence.
I also lost faith in Florida prosecutors during that trial and so far this team is even worse, imho.
Even though I have these feelings I will try to keep the faith that the Martin's get some type of justice for the loss of their child.
I hope this week is better than last for the prosecution.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)Regarding his testimony that he thinks it was Trayvon on top and Zimmerman on bottom. And even that wasn't necessarily fatal to the state's case, just somewhat problematic.
The others could help, depending on how much weight and credibility the jury chooses to place in their testimony. Some people claim that Rachel Jeantel's testimony was disastrous, but if the jury does choose to believe her story (and it's possible that they may), it's devastating for the defense.
The bottom line is we just don't know what the jury's thinking at this point, so it's impossible to say who is "winning" at this point in time.
Little Star
(17,055 posts)People don't know how long that fight was going on before any witness saw them. Just because they think Zimmerman may have been on the bottom at the time Good saw him would make little difference to me if I was a juror. People roll around during a fight.
For me, I would be looking at who was the person who caused this train of events and who was trying to get away right at the get go. I also think that Rachel Jeantel's testimony spoke to that point.
Auntie Bush
(17,528 posts)I was thinking the same thing...when tumbling around different people may be on top and Good only saw a few minutes of that fight.
Also, red at night looks black (You can't see red or colors in the dark) so it would be difficult to say for certain which one would be on top by the color of their jacket.
Funny how Travon's hands didn't show signs of fighting and Zimm's shirt didn't have Travon's blood on it. Also, as someone else pointed out. The recoil of the gun shot could very likely have broken Zimm's nose.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)...a couple of times.
The reason he wasn't on cross for 5 hours is because he's not a young black girl who talks different
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)which would have avoided this whole circus. At this point it is utterly inconceivable that there will be a guilty verdict for murder.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)....ranting about "These assholes always get away" and "fucking punks", going against Neighborhood Watch S.O.P. and against the advice of dispatch, to chase someone he views as suspicious simply because he is walking slowly and alone (and arguably because he thought he fit the "right" demographics) couldn't be argued as demonstrating a callous disregard for human life?
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Which they have not come close to doing. Anytime you have a weak case and a lineup of awful witnesses, you need to be thinking plea-bargain. But in this case the politics of the situation overruled this.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)It matters what the jury thinks.
And neither you nor I are on the jury so we are in no position to say any witness was "awful" or not.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)The jury can convict either of 2nd Degree murder or manslaughter. It's not an either-or.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)is guilty of at least manslaughter, you have described words spoken by Zimmerman at a time when they have no evidence or testimony for. I believe he spoke those words to a police investigator after the fact.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)It's clear as day. Direct evidence of Zimmerman's state of mind as events unfolded that night.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)I recently read about Zimmerman's police interview three days after the shooting. Do you know if that cop has testified yet?
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)The other I believe is Chris Serino, who hasn't testified yet.
It's Serino who didn't think Zimmerman's injuries were consistent with his story and had wanted to charge Zimmerman.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)...believe that Zimmerman wasn't chasing Trayvon at one point
Duckwraps
(206 posts)and if there is ample evidence of that, then the prosecution should be bringing it to the forefront. I suspect that such a subjective thing as "ill will" may be difficult to prove, but what do I know!
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)if what I've read is correct. I guess we'll find out soon enough.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,182 posts)Because people still are wringing their hands with consternation that Zimmerman was "overcharged."