To whom do you give the most credit for the repeal of DOMA?

[Stinky The Clown]

Clearly no one person or group did this. Instead, it took many people and many groups.

But to whom do you give the most credit? Who lead on the issue?

[MADem]

1. I give credit to time and the dogged work of those who publicized the simple bone-headedness of the

act. It wasn't a 'defense' of anything, it was a hateful, fearful measure that said more about the people supporting it than the people it ostensibly targeted.

It was a group effort, but I don't think the repeal would have happened under a GOP President.

[WovenGems]

2. We did

[tavernier]

3. Television.

Seriously. I think that sitcoms and variety shows that celebrate all people, regardless of sexual orientation, have made a huge difference in what the general population now finds not only acceptable, but unremarkable.

[treestar]

11. Good point

The media sometimes does use its abilities for good.

[MannyGoldstein]

4. Margaret Marshall

The Chief Justice for the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court who, ten years ago, decided that of course gay Americans had the right to marry the people they love.

That first domino toppled, the rest were fait accompli.

[graham4anything]

5. I give Dr. King and Lyndon B. Johnson 100% for the 1960s voting rights/civil rights acts signed

I give all those that built it, 100% credit for getting it to the President's table.

With a President behind something, it gets done.

So let's say thank you President Obama and the millions and millions and millions that got today to be today

(note, deleted a line here, as it is unimportant to my answer)

As LBJ said, if tomorrow he walked across the water and made everything happen, the only thing the haters would say is-
why can't LBJ swim.
It didn't specifically happen when Bush was in office, and the rights LBJ signed specifically did not happen with Eisenhower,
because Eisenhower did not want it, just like Bush did not want it.

[Stinky The Clown]

8. "This question obviously was asked, because on that other thread . . . . ."

What are you talking about?

I have no idea what other thread you're citing. If you have issues with another thread, take it up there. I don't appreciate you dragging your leftover drama into my thread.

[graham4anything]

13. my answer is the same- just like the 1960s civil rights acts. Without LBJ and Dr. King working toget

working together, it wouldn't have happened.

It didn't happen during the Bush years, same as stem cell research, because Bush made sure it wouldn't happen

shows there is a difference.

[Ninga]

6. A long, dedicated, organized effort starting with courageous folks stepping

out of the closet, and everything that followed....important voices, politicians....people living in long term committed relationships, on and on and on....

Women will however, need the support of everyone going forward as those who fought and continue to fight against gay rights will turn with a vengeance and redouble their efforts to chip away at all women's choice issues.

[idwiyo]

7. To the gay, lesbian, transgender, bisexual, and queer Americans and their supporters who

refused to take the backseat and kept demanding justice NOW.

[Whisp]

9. Not the most credit but a fair part of it goes to the President.

Contrary to DU, the President is well liked, admired and trusted and his opinion matters to millions.

I think his support to gay people moved people to think in the right direction.

[Bluenorthwest]

16. Obama, bless his heart. When he finally stopped defending DOMA

that was an important, if passive action. His opinion of course for most of his tenure thus far was 'God does not want marriage equality, Sanctity, Sacred, Sacrament, One man, One woman, I am a Christian'. So if his influence was important as you say, those years he spent preaching against us must have also had influence and if nothing else wasted years of human lives....for what? Not for us, that's for damn sure.
So let's remain real, shall we?

[JoePhilly]

19. Obama spent "years preaching against us" ??

That's some serious nonsense.

[William769]

21. President Obama may not have preached but he made his views quite clear

In his first Administration. Are you going to deny that? (trying to rewrite history are we?). President Joe Biden was the first to come out for this of the two I believe calling President Obama's hand.

Yes President Obama evolved & got on the board with the majority of Americans. I voted for him and don't hate him but give credit where credit is due.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

51. Obama's evolvement on this issue has also brought a good number of black Americans

to the same place. Yes, that's right. The black and Hispanic communities are not necessarily known to be friendly towards gay rights issues in the past. Well, that has changed now. Thank God, greater numbers of black and Hispanic Americans that now support LGBT rights, and a lot of that is President Obama's influence.

And he didn't spend "years preaching against us". Where do you get this stuff from? Even when he attended Jeremiah Wright's church, Wright himself is for marriage equality as well as a host of LGBT rights.

But again, it doesn't matter to you because you're so resentful, so nothing counts. Your resentment will eat you alive, even as your rights as a member of the LGBT community are beginning to finally come to fruition.

There's work yet to be done.

Why not get over your resentment of this president and join those of us who actually want to see discrimination end. Work with us. Get over your hatred and let's get to work.

[BlueCaliDem]

56. I agree 100%.

I know for a fact this would've never happened under a Republican president. Never.

But Democratic President Obama has stood up and stood strong for equality for all Americans, regardless of sexual orientation, skin color, creed, and/or religion. He's publicly stated, as no other president dared before him, that he believes gay and lesbian people should have the same rights as any other American, and that he supports full same-sex marriage. Then he asked his DoJ to not defend DOMA at SCOTUS.

And yes, contrary to DU, President Obama is very well liked, admired, and trusted. His support for gay rights has brought a LOT of formerly staunch anti-gay Black religious leaders on board, and that has helped A LOT.

[boilerbabe]

63. HAHAHAHAHAHA. funniest thing so far on DU today.nt

[justiceischeap]

10. The Queens at Stonewall that decided they just weren't going to take it anymore

if it hadn't been for their uprising, the LGBT equality movement wouldn't have been born (or at least born later). Since then, there has been tireless work by many, many people--both gay and straight.

I would also credit the plaintiff in the sodomy law that was reversed 10 years ago. That had a lot to do allowing this Supreme Court to do what they did. Finally, the American public for finally seeing that we aren't the demons the Right makes us out to be. I truly believe if the majority of Americans didn't support marriage equality, the court may have ruled a different way.

[Orangepeel]

12. DOMA particularly? I'd say Boies and Olson.

There are many fronts in the battle for equality, but on DOMA specifically, they led the charge.

[longship]

30. And Olson is a Republican Christian.

(But I repeat myself.)

However, people should remember Olson and his mealy mouthed wife, Barbara (who died on the Pentagon flight on 9/11) during the 2000 election debacle.

But Ted Olson has obviously gone from partisan hack to something better. Whether what happened on 9/11 had anything to do with that transformation I have no idea. Regardless, it is a pleasure to see.

If only other Republicans could see their way to do the same.

[RudynJack]

43. Boies and Olson fought the battle

against Prop 8, not DOMA.

[Orangepeel]

46. Ack! Dumb me.

Mary Bonauto, Gay Marriage Hero

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2013/06/mary_bonauto_doma_repeal_why_every_gay_marriage_supporter_should_be_thanking.html

[RudynJack]

47. Nah,

not dumb. An easy mistake.

and yes, Mary Bonauto is a hero.

[NCTraveler]

14. A family member of mine and millions more like him.

He lives his life bettering himself and those around him. He thinks before he acts, donates his time and money to worthwhile causes, and is loved by many. He happens to be gay. He has the audacity to fight for equal rights.

[Bluenorthwest]

15. People who lived free lives in spite of the bigotry and discrimination imposed by

the Straight Community. You have no idea what your lot put nice people through in thousands of scenarios, for years on end, and it continues of course.
Other than the people themselves seeking rights and living life, I give credit to the artists and writers and actors who slowly and surely educated and informed the public, I give credit to the public for allowing themselves to be informed. Harvey Milk sure, but also Harvey Firestien and Larry Kramer...

Straights still insist on keeping the right to fire us and evict us for existing in 29 States, who do you give the most credit for that?

[Stinky The Clown]

22. The tone of your post is offensive

Not arguing with your point. Only the tone.

[William769]

28. No offense to you stinky

But unless you have walked in our shoes been subjected to what we have been subjected to, I think his tone is tempered.

On that note I would never tell a African American "Not arguing with your point. Only the tone." I wouldn't do it because I could not begin to understand what they suffered at the hands of their oppressors.

[Stinky The Clown]

36. William, my objection was to use of the word "you"

Reference to "the straight community" are perfectly okay. I object to making the reply personal.

You are absolutely correct. I am simply unable to relate on a first hand basis. At best, I can imagine it, but that likely doesn't come close.

William, thanks for making a reasoned reply to me. I appreciate it.



edit to clarify the post title by adding the word "was"

[Nuclear Unicorn]

23. Juror #4 here.

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

Mail Message



At Mon Jul 1, 2013, 10:31 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

People who lived free lives in spite of the bigotry and discrimination imposed by
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3139674

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

blanket condemnation of the straight community ignores the reality of so many who fought for Gay Rights. Typical of this consistently offensive DU'er.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Jul 1, 2013, 10:42 AM, and the Jury voted 1-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I wouldn't have said straights, but republicans who are generally straight. Still do not see a reason to hide this one.


Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Gonna have to do better than that.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Stinky The Clown]

37. For the record, that was not my alert. I rarely - very rarely - alert.

And I almost never alert on a reply to me.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

48. And I believe you.

It isn't that you spoke anything untrue in your objection. I understand it, the alerter's objection as well.

I would, however, in rebuttal point out when SCOTUS rendered Brown v. Board of Education it was a predominantly white bench that did so. When the Civil Rights Act was passed in 1964 it was a predominantly white legislature that passed the bill and a white president that signed it. When women obtained suffrage it was by a process dominated by males. In other words, whites and males don't deserve a "blanket condemnation" any more than straights do.

Be that as it may, those who have lived at the short-end of those sticks may, at times, reflexively lash-out in overly broad terms. I understand it is an overly broad term. It isn't constructive and at times it can be hurtful.

However, I believe a quiet forgiveness is best. In a less heated moment I can speak to my friend as a friend. And my friend will respond as such. More importantly, my friend will realize -- though it remains unsaid -- that I valued their friendship more than I valued my sense of self (which is where the original offenses of bigotry were born in others). That alone will go farther in healing the wounds that even long-overdue legislation cannot cover.

That is my motivation for the verdict I offered and I hope all parties in this episode will choose to see it in the same light.

[closeupready]

26. Absolutely agree. Living with integrity can be painful, but

justice like what we saw last week makes almost ALL the pain worth it.

And frankly, most of them STILL don't get it, and will CONTINUE fighting to keep us down.

[The Link]

29. This straight person agrees with your post.

[The Link]

17. You. Me. Joe Biden.

[Revanchist]

18. John Boehner and the rest of the House Republicans

for being stupid enough to keep the lawsuits going and giving the Supreme Court the opportunity to make their ruling. I bet they love the fact they decided to push the issue.

http://www.salon.com/2013/06/26/boehners_doma_backfire/

[William769]

20. The Republican party & right wing christians.

If it had not been for their bat-shit, crazy eyed, foaming at the mouth, bible thumping misquotes, lunacy. The American people had no choice but to go WTF? The Supremes followed.

[closeupready]

24. David Boies and Ted Olson. But I think

there were so many people who did their part in rejecting it, the answer really has to be every one of us who spoke against it almost in unison. Edie Windsor, too.

[RudynJack]

44. Boies and Olson

had nothing to do with DOMA. They fought Prop 8.

[closeupready]

58. True, but by the same token, all of us had even less to do with DOMA.

That is, in fighting Prop 8 publicly, they advanced many of the same arguments effective in striking down DOMA, and getting those arguments out there in the public's consciousness.

But I take your point that strictly speaking, Boies and Olson represented a party on a separate (if related) case.

Cheers.

[bemildred]

25. We the People did it. nt

[MrScorpio]

27. A group effort by all of the opponents of DOMA

Everyone played their part.

[Marrah_G]

31. The credit goes to all the activists, members of LGBT and Allies who refused to sit down and shut up

Perseverance changed the hearts and minds of enough people to make this possible.

Also HUGE thanks and praise needs to go out to Edie Windsor and attorneys for fighting this fight.

[Safetykitten]

32. Not the person you are fishing for.

[Stinky The Clown]

39. Who is it you think I am fishing for?

Seriously.

If you think it is Obama, you could not be more wrong. I don't think he did a damned thing except get aboard a train that already had left the station. His "considering it" was a crap cop-out.

[yeoman6987]

33. To whom do you give the most credit for the repeal of DOMA?

KENNEDY! That is the lone person who had the power to do so.

[Iggo]

34. I don't.

In the spirit of equality, I'm giving everyone equal credit.

[dsc]

35. I think of people like my uncle

who in the 1950's, in a PA mill town, lived as an openly gay high school student. Sadly, he barely made it to see Stonewall as he died in 1970. I think of the people of Stonewall. I think of the founder of PFLAG who just recently passed. I think of Matthew Sheppard who didn't live to see this day. I think of Lt. Leonard Maltovich who came out on the cover of Time Magazine as an openly gay military man. People like them helped set the foundation for that repeal.

I think of all the gays who lived open lives of integrity and helped change public opinion, so that the marriage equality which seemed so alien and evil in 96, is now favored by a majority of people. I think of the children of gay couples who have fought like lions for their parents, the kid who appeared in the Maine ads, Zach Walls of Iowa, the children of the women in the prop 8 case, and so many others. They put a lie to the notion that gay couples raise defective children.

I think of Edie Windsor who took on what had to seem like a legal nightmare that could take the rest of her life when she lost her Thea. I have to imagine she has spend well over the 300k she paid in estate taxes, in legal fees. But this 83 year old woman pressed on. Through district court, then the appellate level, and finally to SCOTUS.

Finally, I think of the justices that overturned the case, and the presidents that appointed them. Two were from Obama, two from Clinton, and one from Reagan (though another one from Reagan voted against). And, the person who likely deserves the most credit, is whatever gay person it is in Kennedy's life which makes him so pro gay when he is so anti every other minority. We may never know who that gay person is, but he or she likely deserves as much credit as all those I have listed since it is he or she which provided that crucial 5th vote. Which goes to the entire point of this post. Gays living open and authentic lives are what brought us to this day.

[closeupready]

38. Just FYI, Windsor's case was done on a pro bono basis - i.e., free

to her, done without charging her for fees and costs as would be done normally.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

41. O.K., thanks!!!

[dsc]

42. I didn't realize that

I figured it might be cut rate but didn't think it would be pro bono. Still at age 80 time is a big deal and she gave a lot of that.

[dsc]

60. I left a big one out

Jesse Jackson deserves some credit here. He helped us win the Senate back in 2006 which led to Bork being rejected and Kennedy being named in his stead.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

40. The couple who brought the case. DOMA can't be repealed in theory. The process requires

a lawsuit or "bringing the case" when there's a challenge to existing laws. So, the REAL heroes are the couples that brought the case and the organizations that backed them. I'm sure money was an issue, so those organizations also deserve credit.

It's the same with ENDA. People are furious with the president because they *wrongly* believe that all he has to do is sign some Executive Order. And while he COULD sign an EO, it doesn't have the force of law, and EO's may have an expiration date, so Congress would eventually have to consider the issue. In the same way that DOMA was challenge, ENDA would have to also be addressed that way. It needs to have the force of law.

Also, I believe that the president has ordered several benefits to federal employees and their spouses. I work for the federal government, and two LGBT couples I know have filed jointly for federal benefits.

[dsc]

45. EO's in this regard have often survived even into GOP administrations

at the state level several have been issued, and to my knowledge on VA's got repealed and the AG who engineered that is running for gov now and is considered very extreme for that and other such stuff. Clinton's EO on gay employment survived Bush as did his EO on security clearances. Yes, an EO would be more limited since it would only apply to contractors, but there is literally a 0% chance of a law passing before 2015 and a small chance (whatever the odds are of a Dem house without losing the Senate) of such a law by 2017. I am willing to give him until after the midterms, but if a GOP House returns as is likely, then there needs to be an EO.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

53. You really think that the Republicans at ANY level of government won't attempt to repeal

Obama's EO's? Really? I mean, really? I want some of that stuff you're smoking.

[dsc]

54. The tea bagger governors of PA and OH

haven't repealed there, nor did WI. Bush didn't repeal Clinton's. Again, the only such EO that has been repealed was in VA.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

57. I still would prefer that ENDA be addressed through the proper channels. We fought civil rights

legislation through the Courts because we knew that the courts would have the FORCE of law. And we also knew that the neither Congress nor the southern states were likely to address the issues properly (until the CRAs and VRAs of the 60s, of course).

And though not all Republican-dominated state legislatures have attempted to overturn Obama's EO's (I don't think they have the numbers to overcome the repeal), I'd rather these issues be fought through the courts. If we get a Republican president, the EOs would be overturned. Or, maybe not, but it's a chance I'm not willing to take. EOs are flimsy and sometimes awkwardly or vaguely written. We need the force of law from either Congress or mediated through the court system.

Also, Obama has already extended benefits to federal employees who are in LGBT relationships. However, I agree that we really need ENDA.

We either need ENDA passed through Congress (not going to happen) or for the courts to add LGBT to the list of "protected class" status.

[dsc]

59. I highly doubt we will win ENDA in the courts

and the civil rights act was won in Congress, but it was predated by over 20 years, by an EO issued by FDR that forced federal contractors (during WW2) to not discriminate against African Americans. Another EO signed by Truman ended discrimination in the armed services. Neither were repealed by IKE.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

61. But that's what EOs are for. EO's direct the president's agencies to act on behalf of

FEDERAL EMPLOYEES. How do I know this? I'm a federal employee. So you say that Obama could do something. Well, he already has!

And the problem with EO's is that they only apply to federal employees. They're only applicable at the federal level. We need to end discrimination against LGBT in employment, period, not just on the federal level. We need to do it at the state level. And that's the problem with EOs. As I said before, they do little in the way of having the force of the law.

If Congress won't pass ENDA, which they've tried repeatedly to do when the Democrats were in control of the House, then the only recourse ARE the courts.

Do you see what I mean?

[dsc]

62. actually this EO

would apply to companies doing business with the federal government. Just like the one FDR issued in the 40's.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

64. Federal laws DO apply to businesses that contract with government. Contractors have to follow

federal guidelines as a condition of their contract. As one who manages federal contracts, contractors are mandated to abide by federal laws. They have to submit EEOC forms, for example. And I work for HUD, so they also have to submit Fair Housing (housing non-discrimination) agreements.

[dsc]

65. but there is no federal law protecting gays

nor will there be in the forseeable future. I doubt we can win the House back as it is currently gerrymandered. Thus we need an EO to compel federal contractors to not discriminate against gays.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

66. And again, EOs are very limited in what they can do because they only apply

to federal employees. Contractors are not treated as federal employees; in fact, they are not federal employees. So even if there is an EO, it wouldn't apply to them.

[dsc]

68. yes it would

or at least it would make them choose between the federal contract and treating their employees differently. There is history behind what I am saying. FDR did this in the 40's. There was also talk of Obama issuing an order requiring contractors to report political spending (I am not sure if that got issued or not). The government also requires contractors to pay prevailing wages in most cases, though that is by law.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

69. Let's wait and see what happens. Just because Obama hasn't issued an EO doesn't mean

he never will. Let's wait before we start to condemn the man.

[morningfog]

49. The attorneys for their strategic and effective litigation.

[tarheelsunc]

50. The voters.

We (well, they: I wasn't of voting age in 2008) made the right choice and voted for the guy who nominated reasonable people to the Supreme Court.

[BlueToTheBone]

52. Joe Biden.

In his Joeness, he started a whole new conversation of "yes, it's okay. We're all people here and we just want to live" He may not have been supposed to say that, but it changed everything.

[dkf]

55. TV, movies, media.

Attitudes were changed, society changed, acceptance changed. It became ho hum and not a big deal to be LGBT.

Young people. Older people passing away. The switchover of generations.

[treestar]

67. The five Supreme Court Justices

The plaintiffs who challenged the law and whoever supported them.