General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsGet ready for it: Another economic collapse is coming.
The topic of Greece has been in the news over the past week, because no nation in Europe has experienced the depth of malaise that Greece has. Other European nations, including Spain, Italy, Ireland and Portugal are afflicted with many of the same problems that Greece is currently saddled with. The question on everyone's mind is whether or not the Euro can be saved. Regardless of whether one believes that the Eurozone can continue to exist as a viable sociopolitical entity (personally, I don't), there are several leading indicators of economic trouble on a global scale. Right now, one of those indicators is displaying behavior that should deeply concern everyone.
Meet the Baltic Dry Index: http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/BDIY:IND/chart
The Baltic Dry Index, as defined by Wikipedia, "The index provides 'an assessment of the price of moving the major raw materials by sea. Taking in 26 shipping routes measured on a timecharter and voyage basis, the index covers Handymax, Panamax, and Capesize dry bulk carriers carrying a range of commodities including coal, iron ore and grain.'"
Basically, the Baltic Dry Index serves as a proxy for total global economic activity. No matter where a good is produced, unless the purchaser's destination is on the same continent, that good will, in all likelihood, be shipped in cargo containers on an oceangoing cargo vessel. As economic activity waxes and wanes, the Baltic Dry Index rises and falls, just as any other measure of economic activity. But the interesting thing about the Index is that it rises and falls ahead of major economic events, such as the devastating collapse of global financial markets that we endured in 2008. If one clicks on the link above, and checks the 5 year chart, one will notice that the Index peaked at 11,623 on 6/4/2008, more than three months before the economy came crashing down in tandem with the house of cards that Wall Street built. In fact, by the time the great sell-off on Wall Street began and Bernanke and Paulson were scheming for the $700 Billion bailout of the financial industry, September 18, 2008, the Baltic Dry Index had already fallen to 4,856. The value of the Index would continue to fall, bottoming out at 666 on 12/4/08, for a loss of nearly 95% of its value from its June 2008 peak.
What relevance does this have today? Well, I typically keep abreast of the value of the Baltic Dry Index because it is such a sensitive indicator of where the level of global economic activity is headed, but for the past two months, I've been very busy with grad school and an internship, so I haven't had much free time. Today, I read a thread posted by DUer Zalatix, that reported on a massive drop in retail gasoline deliveries. You can read his thread here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002312856
After seeing this trend, which functions as another type of leading economic indicator, I began to wonder how the Baltic Dry Index had been performing since I last checked. As one will note from the chart, the Index recovered to 4,291 on June 3, 2009 (almost one year to the day after its peak value), and has generally been valued in the 1,200 - 2,000 rang for most of the last year. In fact, the post-2008 low for the Index was 1,043 on 2/04/11. Since December, the value of the Index has absolutely cratered, relative to what it has been for the last few years, post-collapse. On February 3 of this year, 2012, less than two weeks ago, the Index was valued at 647, a figure lower than the one recorded at the absolute worst of the previous crisis. And although the value of the index has recovered somewhat, to 734, the fact remains that the precipitous drop in the index indicates that the global economy is barely moving, relatively speaking.
We're teetering on the brink... Right now, total economic activity is so low that all it will take is one major incident to tip the world into a full-blown, capital "D" Depression. And with the turmoil in Greece, the constant saber-rattling between Israel, the U.S. and Iran, and God only knows how many more potential trouble spots, we may very soon find out just which straw it will be to break the proverbial camel's back.
I hope and pray that my analysis is incorrect, but the fundamental situation is what it is, and barring a miracle, I don't see any way for the world to avert an economic disaster of unrivaled proportions. The carnage of the First World War, which claimed 20 million human lives, began with a young Serbian nationalist, Gavrilo Princip, assassinating the Austrian Archduke Franz Ferdinand. This act of political terrorism plunged the entire European continent into a conflict that was, at the time, unparalleled in human history. Similarly, all it will take to plunge the entire world into an equally unparalleled global Depression is a single economic shock to any of the world's major economies. We are poised on the edge of catastrophe, and in closing, I reiterate the advice that I offered in the title of this thread, "Get ready for it."
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banned from Kos
(4,017 posts)Most don't remember but 2007 (second half) was a dreadful time for US equities. It presaged the 2008 collapse in the US.
But commodities and the BDI kept chugging right along then.
I think you are putting too much into the BDI.
Nicely written though. I suspect you are a heck of a student.
Leftist Agitator
(2,759 posts)And I agree that there are other, perhaps superior methods of economic forecasting, but the reason that I put so much stock into the Baltic Dry Index is that moves in its value presage economic conditions in the immediate future, so less correction is necessary as the temporal distance increases. For example, the weakness in the U.S. equity market in the third and fourth quarters of 2007 didn't deter Wall Street from chugging along, full steam ahead, all the way up until the collapse.
In October 2007, the Dow peaked over 14,000. Even a week before the collapse, the Dow was still valued at 11,400. The movement of the Baltic Dry Index clearly indicated that a collapse was imminent, and given that there was a roughly three-month gap between downward trends in the Index and the Dow, I would argue that it can (and should) be used to forecast global economic trends over the same time frame. Given that, I am deeply, deeply concerned about the latest movement. A BDI of 647 tells us that we can expect to see an either flat or declining global economy over the next few months. And, as I mentioned, the problems are so rampant in Europe that all it will take is a single crisis of confidence to bring the whole thing crashing down.
And as far as leading indicators go, we had a clear warning all the way back to 2006, when the housing bubble burst. It's too bad that the collapse created such disruption in the housing market, because that was one of the best domestic indicators that we had. It remains to be seen if the housing market ever recovers sufficiently to serve in that role again.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)I would say equities all through 2008 presaged the collapse of 2008-2009. Throughout 2008 the S&P never rose above its close on the last trading day of 2007.
Ian62
(604 posts)the indicator of that collapse were the no of teaser rate resets rising rapidly in Q4 2007 and remaining high in 2008.
(There was a 10X plus rise in teaser resets Q4).
When your mortgage repayments go from 2% to 8% or even more in one jump .......
The indicator for the next collapse is a bit more nuanced.
The number of insolvent European banks.
The potential domino effect of a Greek default.
And don't think America is immune from this - a significant number of banks were put on negative watch by Moody's yesterday.
As usual the tatings agencies are so far behind the curve on this it is farcical.
There will be hundreds more downgrades over the next year or so - of sovereign debt, several hundred banks and some v large insurance companies.
The financial system is a mess.
The great majority of Eurozone countries will be downgraded. Quite a few have already but not by enough.
The slowdown in Chinese growth and their other problems (like an unwinding propery bubble and bad debts).
The slowdown in US retail sales in Jan and the rise in credit card debt - peeps can't pay their bills.
BDI down 60% in a few weeks indicates a strong slowdown in global trade.
A small amount of this due to new ships coming on stream - but it is small.
I think there will be a global technical recession 2nd half of 2012 (global growth below 3%). It probably won't be reported as such until 2013.
IMF etc. is repeatedly downgrading future growth forecasts.
zipplewrath
(16,646 posts)Your full of predictions, but not much in the way of substantive suggestion on how to "get ready for it". Are you advising a sell off of assets and moving to cash? Should one buy gold? Should one buy 30 acrea in Montana? Bury food in PVC pipes? How does one get ready for such a thing? You make allusions to the turn of the last century and the onset of WWI. What could someone at that time done to "get ready for it"? Considering the lack of mobility of most people at the time, it isn't clear where they would have gone. They very easily could have walked into a vastly worse situation.
In the collapse of '08, if you didn't get out early, and move into cash, there wasn't alot to do. Moving to bonds wouldn't have saved you if you were heavily in stocks. Paying off the house might have been the worst thing you could have done. The best thing you could have done is to sell it off, but you probably would have had to do that a good year prior.
Leftist Agitator
(2,759 posts)And I don't purport to be one. To me, preparation means making sure that you have an adequate supply of the things that are necessary for survival, such as food, water, toilet paper and other hygiene products, as well as a means of leaving an area quickly if that becomes necessary.
If you spend a little time using The Google, you can read accounts written by Argentinians who went through this very situation only a few years ago, albeit on a much smaller scale. I would read what they have to say, and plan accordingly.
zipplewrath
(16,646 posts)I'm not sure what you meant then by "get ready". You are describing something close to total global economic collapse, I'm not sure the Argentinians went through that. And I don't think any of us could store that much water, much less food. And that kind of preparation would have been fairly useless prior to the crash of '29.
Hugabear
(10,340 posts)Basically we're all about to get royally fucked.
Get ready for a Depression that will make the Great Depression look like fun times.
There will be no coming out of this one. The capitalist economic system is about to collapse worldwide.
Kablooie
(18,641 posts)
librechik
(30,677 posts)simply because the Shock Doctrine contracts which caused these nations to be in debt to the banks are fraudulent, gouging and criminal. DON"T APPEASE THE BANKS BY PAYING THEIR OUTRAGEOUS FEES AND INTEREST or giving them BAILOUTS!! TAKE YOUR COUNTRIES BACK!!
banned from Kos
(4,017 posts)And that excess capacity effects the BDI?
The BDI does not merely measure cargo hauled.
Leftist Agitator
(2,759 posts)And the overexpansion is why the BDI has been floating around 1500 for the past several years, and not recovered its value more robustly. But given that carriers have more capacity than necessary right now, the fact that the BDI has recently dropped so much indicates that even with the expansion of their fleets, carriers are seeing less activity.
Obviously, one wouldn't expect to see new shipbuilding occurring for the foreseeable future, but irrespective of that, total cargo rates have dropped dramatically, ostensibly because of a lack of demand.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)...disagree.
Dean Baker
http://sync.democraticunderground.com/1002283297
Krugman
http://sync.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=285369
Leftist Agitator
(2,759 posts)Krugman himself admits that a major European crisis would cause major disruption with unforseeable consequences, "...if European events cause a Lehman-type event, disrupting financial markets world-wide, all bets are off."
And though Dean Baker may be convinced that the collapse of the Eurozone is unlikely, I disagree. The EU doesn't have the kind of institutional structure that the US does. If Nevada gets into financial trouble, the other 49 states pick up the slack under the guidance of the Federal government. The EU constitution doesn't have a similar provision. Greece is still sovereign, and Angela Merkel And Nicholas Sarkozy can't force the Greek government to defy the will of the Greek people forever. If there is a revolution in Greece, which looks increasingly likely as harsh austerity measures are imposed, then I agree with Krugman that all bets are off.
And though I respect the opinions of both men, I would remind you that the majority of economists (though not these two) didn't see the handwriting on the wall before the last crisis.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)And though Dean Baker may be convinced that the collapse of the Eurozone is unlikely, I disagree. The EU doesn't have the kind of institutional structure that the US does. If Nevada gets into financial trouble, the other 49 states pick up the slack under the guidance of the Federal government. The EU constitution doesn't have a similar provision. Greece is still sovereign, and Angela Merkel And Nicholas Sarkozy can't force the Greek government to defy the will of the Greek people forever. If there is a revolution in Greece, which looks increasingly likely as harsh austerity measures are imposed, then I agree with Krugman that all bets are off.
And though I respect the opinions of both men, I would remind you that the majority of economists (though not these two) didn't see the handwriting on the wall before the last crisis.
...but what constitutes "major European crisis"? When all the talk about Greece's impending doom was at its height and parallels were being drawn, Krugman made the case that the U.S. is not Greece. Does anyone foresee a "Lehman-type event"? That was the basis for a lot of the past predictions of doom. In fact, some went so far to say Wall Street reform wouldn't prevent it. I disagree. The FDIC has its new powers and the Volcker rule takes effect in July. Whatever financial crisis awaits in the future, it will not be similar to the last one, and it will not happen anytime soon.
Leftist Agitator
(2,759 posts)That's the most likely scenario that would qualify as a "major European crisis". Also, it really doesn't matter if the structural instabilities in Greece are dissimilar to those in the U.S., because the damage to the world financial system in the event of the collapse of the Euro would be so far-reaching that the U.S. wouldn't be spared , regardless of the health of our economy. Even in the best economic times, the U.S. would see massive repercussions if the Euro collapsed, and given that our economy is limping along, still reeling from the collapse in 2008, the effect of such an event in the U.S. would be to cause a Depression.
The Volcker rule is an important safeguard against the sort of speculation that imperiled commercial banks, but the fact remains that the flashpoint for a future crisis likely will not be in the United States.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)That's the most likely scenario that would qualify as a "major European crisis".
...think that's what Krugman meant.
<...>
So the next time you hear someone claiming that if we don’t slash spending we’ll turn into Greece, your answer should be that if we do slash spending while the economy is still in a depression, we’ll turn into Europe. In fact, we’re well on our way.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/02/opinion/krugman-killing-the-euro.html
On edit: I misread this point:
girl gone mad
(20,634 posts)He's a neoliberal surrounded on all sides by shockingly incompetent neoliberals. He supports and endorses extremist conservative economic frames. He's anti-deficit (embarrassingly inane on his part), pro-financialization, pro-bankster, corporatist, authoritarian. When the time comes, he will throw the middle class under the bus to try and save the banks (yet again), but this time China and Europe won't be there to brace our fall. Remember what I told you in 2008. The administration took a private debt crisis and rather than pre-privatizing the banks and writing down those bad debts while the problem was fixable - rather than reining in our corrupt and criminal financial sector - they bailed out Wall Street, fucked Main Street up the ass and turned that simple private debt crisis into something much worse and much more dangerous over the long term. Now we get to watch the results of their foolish choices play out, like a slow motion train wreck.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)...is handling the crisis, which is why the doomsayers are upset and the pessimists are now experiencing optimism. I think you have the President confused with the assholes who caused the crisis and are now obstructing the recovery.
Which is not to say that all is well with U.S. policy. True, the federal government has avoided all-out austerity. But state and local governments, which must run more or less balanced budgets, have slashed spending and employment as federal aid runs out — and this has been a major drag on the overall economy. Without those spending cuts, we might already have been on the road to self-sustaining growth; as it is, recovery still hangs in the balance.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/30/opinion/krugman-the-austerity-debacle.html?_r=1
girl gone mad
(20,634 posts)and, if you will recall, back in 2008 and 2009 many of us argued vehemently for Obama to enact a revenue sharing program with the states so that the issue Krugman refers to in your excerpt could be avoided. Obama was not interested, and now we know why. He made misguided, overly optimistic assumptions about the economy from day one, and he relied on the advice of morons who were equally deluded. He put the banks first and the people last. You know things are bad when his best option would have been listening to Larry Summers.
Ian62
(604 posts)that predicted the housing bubble bursting roughly when it did and who now think we are in trouble again over the next year or so.
I don't know of any that prdicted the house price crash and are optimistic forr the next 2 years.
I am not familar with those 2 - did they predict the housing bubble bursting? It was easy to see,
But I am unfamiliar with most economists that appear in the mainstream media - because they are wrong headed and cannot predict.
I listen and critically appraise those economists who are informed and apply reason and common sense. But you won't find any of them appearing in the financial column of your paper.
okieinpain
(9,397 posts)Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)Prior to the collapse, China was sucking in enormous, and by that I mean record-shattering amounts of raw materials, ore, scrap metal, fuel, grain, you name it, and shipbuilding yards couldn't meet demand fast enough for both bulk carriers and container ships.
The numbers were skewed dramatically by that, and now until Europe either settles down or blows up, caution is the word as no one wants to be caught with their stuff in the breeze like four years ago.
If the Eurozone can't fix the Greece problem, this economy will be collateral damage, but Europe will shatter.
Kablooie
(18,641 posts)The way I prepare for most disasters is to dig a hole in the ground and stick my head in it.
Works every time.
It annoying brushing the earthworms out of your hair though.
eridani
(51,907 posts)If the global economy is shifting toward more local systems, not as much transport would be needed, correct? Seems that BDI would not track this well.
Leftist Agitator
(2,759 posts)In that the BDI most certainly would not reflect a shift toward local, more sustainable systems. I'd love to believe that this is the reason for the drop off, but I sincerely doubt that is the case, unfortunately.
Selatius
(20,441 posts)Take the US, for instance.
It's an economy that is now very heavily dependent upon imports from countries like China and India and other places in the world where mass production is done. If the US were to shift to a localized system, it basically just enacted a policy of "autarky," where the goal is the emphasis of domestic production and self-sufficiency. To do that would essentially mean re-inventing the infrastructure, skill sets, and trouble-shooting know-how needed to resurrect and run the entire industrial capacity of the United States that existed in the 1940s all the way through the 1970s. As it stands, the US can't even produce consumer electronics at a level to meet demand without heavily relying upon China.
Ian62
(604 posts)Less than negligible impact on world trade.
You might like it to happen and have some stories to tell. But it is miniscule.
sendero
(28,552 posts)... the BDI is only one of several indicators/situations ringing a loud alarm bell.
The economy has never actually began a serious recovery from the 2008 crash, and all factors are arrayed against it doing so now.
Are we headed for a major crash/depression? I don't have a crystal ball but I would say that everything has to go just right for many years to avoid one, and the likelihood of that happening is very low.
Even if we do manage to avoid an all out crash, the Fed's continued debasement of the currency will have consequences, those being primarily huge increases in the price of oil and food.
When the Fed comes out and says "I'm keeping interest rates at ZERO until at least 2014", well, if that doesn't scare you I don't know what would.
The recent "gains" in employment are phantom (created by the BLS playing with their models) and even if they weren't they are not anywhere even in the ballpark of the numbers needed to pull us out of this. In fact, all of the numbers (inflation, employment, you name it) are complete bullshit at this point, they were mostly bullshit long ago. So, IMHO, the whole game is to try to trick you into believing that we are "recovering" (heard that word a few times in the last 4 years?) when in fact nothing of the sort is happening and the mechanisms that usually pull us out of a recession are simply not in play, mostly because we've shipped our jobs overseas.
Selatius
(20,441 posts)If a person is discouraged but is ready and able to work and is classified as discouraged for more than a year, I believe the person is removed from the labor force and is not counted. If we added them back into the unemployment numbers, the numbers are probably worse than either the U3, the one commonly reported in the news, or the U6 measure of unemployment that the BLS reports on a monthly basis.
Other major indicators are not really showing much improvement. Housing starts are still essentially bottom-bouncing, but that's probably because of the huge glut of foreclosed homes in the market that are yet to be sold.
And the problem with any pick-up in economic activity at this point is that gasoline prices are going to rise up, and that will not help any recovery, and since it takes fuel to move food from the farm to the store and then your refrigerator, food prices will jump up as well, and I guarantee you most employers do not give pay raises that meet rising cost of living, at least those employers who do not have to negotiate with a labor union anyway.
If economic activity is picking up not because weekly incomes are rising but because now it's easier to put it on credit, such activity will not be sustainable. The bill will come due on that borrowing.
lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)Selatius
(20,441 posts)In many inland states, right-to-work laws make unionization tremendously difficult because it creates freeloaders on the labor union itself. It's easier to decertify a union than it is to certify one in these states. This is a legacy of the Taft-Hartley Act. Prior to the passage of that law, roughly one out of every three workers in the US was unionized. Today, there's likely less than one out of ten who are in a union.
Another major difference between today and then was that the US did manufacturing in-house. The US had the industrial capacity to wage a global war because it had a manufacturing base large enough to produce goods for Americans, and it was easily converted towards war production. Today, we can't even manufacture consumer electronics without heavily relying upon China, a country that is basically a brutal military dictatorship.
zipplewrath
(16,646 posts)That's probably the most reasonable thing you wrote. Yes, we have not "recovered" not by a long shot. And the reality is that we probably won't for more than a decade. Regardless of the specific number associated with unemployment, the lost WAGES of both the unemployed, those who are now re-employed at lower wages, and those who are doing less work, and therefor earning less income, represent a real loss to the economy that hasn't begun to recover.
The flip side is that there are positive indications in areas like manufacturing. And the reality is that there is still alot of "wealth" out there that is not being spent, or invested.
Everything does have to go "just right", but it is also true that there are ALOT of people all around the world with vested interests that are working to accomplish exactly that.
There will be set backs, and some of them major. Some of them are basically "knowable" as well. The price of oil is certainly going to go up, for some period of time, we just don't know exactly when. The european crisis will "happen" in some sense or another. Too many countries in too much trouble with not enough answers. The problem is we don't know what country will do what, and when. Could be anything from a minor default on debt to a civil war. And the foreclosures are going up, alot. "Everyone" knows it's coming and the result on our economy is going to be felt. We just don't know how much it's going to go up.
The flip side is that the magnitude and nature of the problems can be managed. Unfortunately that doesn't mean they WILL be managed. That uncertainty is the real problem. But it is an uncertainty. That's what make these doomsday declarations problematic. It's not that they aren't possible, they are just as uncertain as the economy is. We might be headed towards a total economic collapse, but we might not. It is uncertain, and to some extent it is dependent upon decision to be made in the future.
But the LAST thing we need is for people to presume that the total economic collapse is "certain". Because then it will become a self fulfilling prophecy.
sendero
(28,552 posts)... that if we acknowledge reality that we are contributing to the problem.
Sorry, I don't think that way.
I've been here sounding the alarm since around 2005. I've caught a lot of crap for doing it but I have been more or less correct. And I am more or less correct now.
You can worry that if people figure out what is really happening that will make it worse - that is a viewpoint. But MY viewpoint is that if you know what is happening you might be able to take steps to mitigate the pain. I'm concerned about people who are here, Democrats, who generally care about economic justice. I don't care about Republican status-seeker dipshits who bought tract mansions and giant SUVs on credit and and are now screwed. I'm funny that way.
All of the wishing in the world is not going to fix this and the "people working on it" are not helping, they are hurting because they are only interested in saving the bankers, not the average American. The average American is on his own. And more and more of them are figuring that out and outright lies about what inflation and unemployment really are is not going to work much longer.
Yes there is a tiny uptick in manufacturing. There is a tiny uptick in employment. Seize on them and convince yourself we've "turned the corner" like we supposedly have several times in the last 4 years. With Europe hanging by a thread, our currency debasement raising the cost of oil and even China in trouble, it would take more than a miracle for anything like a traditional recovery to happen. Miracles do happen, but I'm not betting on one, I'm preparing for the most likely eventuality. And I implore everyone else here to do the same.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Wars can be waged economically and militarily, and we are seeing a ramping up of both to create the crises they need for major structural change.
They are not just after short-term gain from collecting debts or building weapons. World wars and financial collapse are all about consolidating political and financial power for the one percent. They are about driving entire nations into debt, restructuring political systems to assume control of nations and global resources, and subjugating a global workforce. Note that all seriously considered proposals for managing the debt crisis in Europe have involved nations' relinquishing more of their self-governance to global, corporate control.
Austerity is coming to America, too. And we are seeing a rapid, sustained, and multifocused effort to militarize our police forces, increase government control of the Internet, and increase general surveillance and control of Americans in advance of any resistance we decide to put forth to the major changes in store.
Amonester
(11,541 posts)for a "little" while, I guess...
Maybe a couple of hundreds animal species "would" escape extinction (again, for a 'little' while)...
How "would" this be a bad thing?
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)If nothing more than as a distraction at least.
Not to mention that desperate people don't have a lot of qualms about screwing up the environment, it's relative wealth that allows for the luxury of worrying about environmental impact.
Swede
(33,295 posts)The Greece situation is being handled. It may move slow,but we're getting out of this thing.
bhikkhu
(10,725 posts)We have had a recession or three, and at least a couple of collapses, and plenty of "churn" - jobs destroyed here, jobs created there, one thing after another. But overall the big picture just moves along, and the difference between collapse we're supposed to fear and prosperity we're supposed to cheer is just a few percentage points, somewhere in the mix.
Not that I'm saying it should be easy for people, or that my circumstances haven't diminished in the last few years, but the whole idea that one gets ready for disaster by learning to fear, and feeds the fear by devouring up on every portent of doom that can be found - well, that's just not very bright. I'd rather say that the best defense is to enjoy life, cling to what you enjoy and keep a smile close. A life full of fear is half abandoned already; its much better to live a life that's worth keeping - especially if it centers upon people rather than "stuff".
Imagine years down the road talking to your grandkids - if they ask you what you did back in these good old days, you wouldn't want the answer to be that mostly you complained, or that you spent too much time fearing the future to enjoy the present.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)Peak oil, peak food, peak EVERYTHING.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002307920
bhikkhu
(10,725 posts)...so I bicycle to work, we grow food and cook, we insulated our house, we waste less and we buy less. Unless you bought into the endless bounty of the shining city on the hill sort of crap, a new world of less is only slightly different than the old world, and no surprise.
