Natural Gas Industry hamstrings Doctors in Pennsylvania

[Frack Glop]

Natural Gas Industry hamstrings Doctors
Doctors swear an oath to do no harm.
It's obvious from this bill, that the oath sworn by the Natural Gas Industry and PA legislators is to do no harm to profits or campaign donations.

Terry Engelder, Penn State Professor of Geology, says we are the sacrifice, this bill makes it abundantly clear that he was not talking metaphorically.

http://fracktoids.blogspot.com/2012/02/natural-gas-industry-hamstrings-doctors.html


Read these too:
You Can’t Tell the Players Without a Scorecard!
Connecting the Dots: The Marcellus Natural Gas Play Players – Part 1
By Dory Hippauf
http://commonsense2.com/2011/12/naturalgasdrilling/connecting-the-dots-the-marcellus-natural-gas-play-players-part-1/

Chesapeake Energy – Peeking Behind the Curtain
Connecting the Dots: The Marcellus Natural Gas Play Players – Part 2
By Dory Hippauf
http://commonsense2.com/2012/01/national-politics/connecting-the-dots-the-marcellus-natural-gas-play-players-part-2/

Energy-in-Depth (EID): The “GAS”roots
Connecting the Dots: The Marcellus Natural Gas Play Players – Part 3
By Dory Hippauf
http://commonsense2.com/2012/02/naturalgasdrilling/connecting-the-dots-the-marcellus-natural-gas-play-players-part-3/

[badtoworse]

1. The law seems reasonable and fair to me

The information in question is proprietary and the law has long recognized the right of companies and individuals to keep such information confidential. The Pennsylvania law requires the gas companies to disclose the information about fracking fluids to doctors but requires the doctor to certify a medical need and agree to keep the information confidential. It also provides that the information must be disclosed immediately on verbal notification that an emergency condition exists, but requires the subsequent execution of a confidentiality agreement. It seems to me that such an arrangement protects everyone.

[GeorgeGist]

2. Hopefully ...

the Medical Profession won't agree with you or this profit first bullshit.

[badtoworse]

4. Have they even commented on it?

[CanSocDem]

3. Huh....!!??

"It seems to me that such an arrangement protects everyone."

Hardly. Unless you believe that the petro-chemical industry puts public health ahead of corporate profits. Is that what you think???

.

[badtoworse]

6. The law mandates that the information be made available to doctors.

How is that not protecting public health? Requiring that confidential information be kept confidential is not unreasonable and is well accepted by the medical profession.

[CanSocDem]

10. ...and that 'doctors' cannot share...

...that information with the general public.

If a health professional determines that a medical emergency exists and the specific identity and amount of any chemicals claimed to be a trade secret or confidential proprietary information are necessary for emergency treatment, the vendor, service provider or operator shall immediately disclose the information to the health professional upon a verbal acknowledgment by the health professional that the information may not be used for purposes other than the health needs asserted and that the health professional shall maintain the information as confidential.

In other words, if a health professional discovers harmful chemicals in one patient, they cannot presume that its' origin is dangerous to the general public.

[badtoworse]

11. They can share their concerns with regulators such as OSHA and the DEP

They already have a right to know under current law and are in a position to act on the information.

[grntuscarora]

13. I'm confused.

In a situation where chemicals were ingested through a shared water supply, wouldn't it be prudent to imeidiately notify others who were drawing from the same water supply? Wouldn't it save time and expense to tell them upfront the chemicals to be alert for?
When the chemicals are this toxic, I don't feel the drillers have any right to their "proprietary" secrets.

[badtoworse]

14. See No. 11

The DEP is the agency that would would deal with what you describe. They are already set up to do that and have a legal right to know what is in the fracking fluids. If a doctor suspected a contaminated, shared water supply, that should be his first phone call.

[grntuscarora]

16. I'm assuming

the patient is allowed to be told the "secret ingredient" that's causing his or her problems. Is the patient under a gag order along with the Doctor?

[grntuscarora]

17. No matter.

If it was me that was sickened, I'd be notifying family, friends, neighbors, townsfolk, and singing that "proprietary secret" from the rooftops, gag order be damned.

[badtoworse]

18. I don't know the answer to your question about a patient being being bound by the confidentiality

Assuming you were, however, you would be foolish to do what you are saying. You would be taking on a lot of potential liability for yourself. That is not prudent and would not be necessary. The safer approach would be to go the DEP and let them deal with it.

[grntuscarora]

23. After being poisoned by

drilling chemicals, liability risk would be way down at the bottom on my list of concerns, I imagine.

[badtoworse]

24. Perhaps...

But if I had to choose between being sick and broke or being just plain sick, I'd go for the latter.

I think you're getting a little carried away - I'm aware of situations (Dimock, PA and Pavillion, WY) where wells have apparently been contaminated (studies are still ongoing), but I haven't heard of anyone actually being poisoned or winding up in the ER because of exposure. Have you heard of any?

[grntuscarora]

34. There is a recent study called "Impacts of Gas Drilling on Animal and Human Health"

by Michelle Bamberger and Robert E. Oswald. It is largely about effects on livestock and pets but it does document some effects on humans, on pages 62 and 63. And yes, one child was hospitalized, although her arsenic poisoning was not conclusively linked to the drilling. It's an interesting report. I imagine many more reports and studies will be done in the future.

http://baywood.metapress.com/app/home/contribution.asp?referrer=parent&backto=issue,1,1;journal,1,56;linkingpublicationresults,1:300327,1


One part of the study was particularly pertinent to this conversation:

"Nondisclosure Agreements
Nondisclosure agreements between injured parties and corporations make it
difficult to document incidents of contamination. Compensation in the form of
cash, payment for all settlement expenses, an offer to buy the property and/or
payment for medical expenses in exchange for a nondisclosure agreement
prevents information on contamination episodes and health effects from being
documented and analyzed. Nondisclosure agreements are common in all areas of
business and are often essential to protect intellectual property. However, when
documentation of health problems associated with gas operations is shielded
from public scrutiny by a nondisclosure agreement, this is clearly a misuse of
this important business tool and should be prohibited."

[LanternWaste]

65. I imagine many people believe that...

I imagine many people believe that corporate trade secrets are indeed more important than health, and will themselves rationalize and justify that very idea.

[Frack Glop]

63. Different frack formulas

Each gas driller may use multiple sources for their frack chemicals. Each source has a different forumula. Each gaswell frack may use a different formula. Each formula is "proprietory"

Now, pretend you are a doctor, a patient comes in with symptoms that you suspect may be poisoning from exposure to frack chemicals. Which chemical do you test for?

To find out, and before you even pick up the phone - you need to know WHO is fracking in the patient's area, and what are the well pads id #'s and their locations. There may be more than 1 well pad within 1-2 miles of the patient's home. Now make your phone call, and leave a message because you would be extremely lucky if:

1. a real person answers the phone
2. they know what you are talking about and able to give you the information immediately

exempt from this is exposure and poisoning from FRACK holding ponds, spills, blowouts, illegal dumping etc.

[siligut]

5. The problem is with the verbiage used as the medical profession sees it

1. indicates that the industry knows that much of the substances they are using are a threat to public health - enough so that emergency room and other physicians would see cases of toxic exposure to fracking and related chemicals and substances on a regular basis, i.e. that this is not a safe process;

2. indicates that the industry wants to keep it quiet - they know that if the health risks of their activities due to chemical exposure (in air and water) were to become public there would be such enormous outcry that they would be - appropriately - shut down;

3. [shows that industry knows fracking/ms] is a human rights and a civil rights violation to the residents and workers affected, and would ultimately contribute to a public health catastrophe;

4. would guarantee that other individuals [and] families in the area would not be warned that they are being exposed on an on-going basis to highly hazardous chemicals that have made other individuals ill — often seriously and irreversibly ill.

[badtoworse]

7. There are already "right to know" laws on the books that deal with what you describe

[siligut]

8. They are making it very difficult for medical professionals to do their job.

Of course it is legal, these guys have plenty of money for attorneys, the question is, is it ethical?

[badtoworse]

9. I don't see a problem here

This is excerpted from the new law:

"If a health professional determines that a medical emergency exists and the specific identity and amount of any chemicals claimed to be a trade secret or confidential proprietary information are necessary for emergency treatment, the vendor, service provider or operator shall immediately disclose the information to the health professional upon a verbal acknowledgment by the health professional that the information may not be used for purposes other than the health needs asserted and that the health professional shall maintain the information as confidential."

Basically, all the ER doctor has to do is ask for the information and agree to keep it confidential. What's wrong with that?

[siligut]

12. They are not forthcoming with the information, it is the equivalent of jumping through hoops.

If they weren't protecting themselves and profit ahead of human rights/health, the information would be public knowledge. Again, it is a matter of ethics.

[badtoworse]

15. You may not like it, but there are valid reasons why trade secrets exist - nt

You are speculating that there will be problems implementing the law. I doubt that will be the case because the potential liability would be huge.

[blue neen]

19. Well, you just said it all right there..."trade secrets."

That is exactly why this law was passed--to protect the Oil and Gas Industry. It certainly wasn't passed to protect the public. There is nothing that Tom Corbett EVER does that is to protect the public.

Everything about the law that Governor Tom Corrupt signed yesterday was designed for the benefit of the Oil and Gas Big Boys. It's not so difficult to understand why they contributed millions upon millions of dollars to his campaign. They got what they wanted--their puppet.

Local municipalities now have no authority over what ordinances can and cannot be passed to protect the citizens. They may get some money, now that Corbett finally enacted a pittance of an extraction fee...so small that it's an actual joke in the industry.

Corporate Tool Tom is also doing his very best to gut public education in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. He keeps cutting funding to public schools, while multi-national Oil and Gas companies are making insane profits at the citizens' expense. It's no accident that another major funding source for Tommy Boy's campaign was for-profit charter schools.

He's cutting funding once again to public universities, pricing Pennsylvania schools out of the market. The students will be going out of state for an education, causing a brain drain in PA, and costing us jobs. It's quite interesting that Governor Gashole couldn't cut it in Pennsylvania schools, isn't it?

Tom Terrific is repeating the cutting of funding to Medicaid. This is really hurting lower income senior citizens in PA. Nursing homes no longer want to accept Medicaid patients because of Corbett's cuts. What are these poor families supposed to do? They don't have the resources to care for their loved ones, but nursing homes won't accept them.

This state is going to hell in a hand basket, and Corbett will be standing there waiting with his pitchfork when we all arrive.

It's too bad that those of us who had the sense to not vote for him also have to suffer the consequences of his evil dictatorship of Pennsylvania.

[badtoworse]

20. There are situations where state law should preempt local law. This is one of them.

Towns and municipalities generally do not have the resources to manage and regulate activities such as fracking and they likely do not have the knowledge either. The state has both and can be much more effective.

You also don't want different rules in every township. That would make compliance with regulations very difficult for industry and likely lead to a worse safety record than having a uniform set of rules.

BTW, I am a strong supporter of developing our own energy resources, rather than relying on imports. I believe we should use fracking to accomplish that. I also believe that fracking can be done safely with properly cased wells and care taken to properly handle and dispose of the wastewater.

[blue neen]

26. Really?

I suppose you do realize that there are not enough D.E.P. workers to regulate the wells we now have. As a matter of fact, they don't even know HOW MANY actual wells there are:

"When PG Web content producer Laura Schneiderman downloaded DEP's production data, she discovered it says there are 495 more wells producing gas, or ready to produce gas, than DEP has recorded as ever being drilled, and 182 of those wells don't even show up on the state's Marcellus Shale permit list."


Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/12008/1202172-503-0.stm#ixzz1mTw7QaWi

To make matters worse, Corbett cut funding to the D.E.P. and eliminated some of the jobs, and is set to do so again this year.

Yet, we are supposed to trust that the state of Pennsylvania, under this administration, will be "much more effective" at managing and regulating fracking activities. Right.

Oh, and as far as that "energy independence" meme you're talking about:

"Gasoline exports have more than doubled since 2007 and are on pace this year to exceed 150 million barrels, triple the amount in 2007—even as gas prices remain high."

"In the first quarter of 2010, the United States exported more than 17.8 million short tons of coal. American coal exports increased by nearly 50% in the first quarter of 2011."

"Two permits for natural gas export terminals have been approved, with several more proposed to send gas from the Marcellus Shale overseas."

"Meanwhile American taxpayers are subsidizing the oil companies’ huge profits to the tune of billions per year. In essence we’re spending billions of dollars every year to allow multinational oil and gas corporations to plunder American lands. The profits from sales on the world market go to energy companies and Americans foot the bill."

http://wilderness.org/content/report-energy-independence-thwarted-us-oil-and-gas-heads-overseas

Concerning the handling and disposal of wastewater, here is but one instance where that did not occur:

"After Scott Ely and his father talked with salesmen from an energy company about signing the lease allowing gas drilling on their land in northeastern Pennsylvania, he said he felt certain it required the company to leave the property as good as new."

"So Mr. Ely said he was surprised several years later when the drilling company, Cabot Oil and Gas, informed them that rather than draining and hauling away the toxic drilling sludge stored in large waste ponds on the property, it would leave the waste, cover it with dirt and seed the area with grass. He knew that waste pond liners can leak, seeping contaminated waste."

"I guess our terms should have been clearer" about requiring the company to remove the waste pits after drilling, said Mr. Ely, of Dimock, Pa., who sued Cabot after his drinking water from a separate property was contaminated. "We learned that the hard way."

"Americans have signed millions of leases allowing companies to drill for oil and natural gas on their land in recent years. But some of these landowners -- often in rural areas, and eager for quick payouts -- are finding out too late what is, and what is not, in the fine print."

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11336/1194101-84-0.stm#ixzz1mTzUfksb

I, and many other Pennsylvanians, could cite more of those instances for you. You see, there are quite a few of us who do not believe the Gas Industry's propaganda machine.

[badtoworse]

32. The EPA is currently investigating Dimock

I'm very interested to get the final report as well as the one for the work they are doing in Pavillion, Wyoming.

I think we can agree on one thing: We do need rigorous safety standards covering well casings and the use, storage and disposal of fracking fluids. We also need a strong enforcement capability. There is certainly the potential for great environmental damage if fracking is not done properly and with the appropriate level of care. I'm sure that environmental damage has already occured because of the lack of standards and enforcement - unfortunately, EPA did not get involved soon enough and even now, it is still developing standards. That needs to be rectified, but I am confident it will be done and that fracking can be safely employed.

I would say that most on DU would ban fracking outright. I'm not one of them.

[TheKentuckian]

38. I think that no matter what damage to people, the water supply, or the environment

you will simply circle the wagons around the extraction industry and blame the government and insist that there would be no problems if whatever alphabet soup had held up their end of the bargain and will defend the extraction industry no matter what.

[badtoworse]

46. That is not true

I support standards that mandate properly cased, safe wells. I also support regulations mandating the safe handling, storage, use of and disposal of fracking fluids. I also believe there needs to be a strong enforcement function to insure it actually happens with penalties for violations that are high enough to discourage non-compliance.

I wouldn't defend irresponsible drilling practices any more than I would defend any other industry that operates outside the law and good operating practice.

I believe there has been a lack of leadership on this matter at the federal level and in many cases at the state level as well.

[blue neen]

39. In post 20 you are saying that we should trust the state to take care of regulating fracking.

The reason the EPA is investigating Dimock is because the DEP (STATE agency) did not properly do its job. So, now you're okay with the EPA having to intervene here because the state, in fact, did not protect the citizens of Dimock. That's quite a contradiction.

Yes, we do agree that we need more rigorous standards and enforcement of said standards. Tom Corbett and his Oil and Gas Company buddies have rigged the game in Pennsylvania, and the regulations will not occur. It WILL NOT be rectified in Pennsylvania until we get this ass clown out of office.

You would possibly feel differently about fracking if these chemicals (among others) were going to go directly under your house:

2,2-Dibromo-3-Nitrilopropionamide
2-methyl-4-isothiazolin-3-one
Acetic Acid
Acetic Anhydride
Acetylene
Alcohol Ethoxylated
Alkyl benzene sulfonic acid
Ammonia (aqueous)
Ammonium Bifluoride
Ammonium Persulfate
Ammonium Bisulfite
Ammonium chloride
Ammonium Salt (alkylpolyether sulfate)
Amorphous silica
Benzoic Acid
Boric Acid
Boric Oxide
Calcium Chloride
Calcium Oxide
Choline Chloride
Cinnamaldehyde
Citric Acid
Complex polyamine salt
Crystalline Silica:
Crystalline Silica: Quartz
Cupric chloride dihydrate
Cured resin
Cyclohexanes
Dazomet
Diethylene
Enzyme GBL-8X
EO-C7-9-iso-, C8 rich-alcohols
EO-C9-11-iso-, C10-rich alcohols
Ethoxylated Alcohol
Ethyl Acetate
Ethyl Alcohol
Ethylbenzene
Ethylbenzene
Ethylene Glycol
Formic Acid
Gluconic Acid
Glutaraldehyde
Glycerol
Glycol Ethers
Guar Gum
Hydrochloric Acid
Hydrochloric Acid 3% – 35%
Isopropanol
Isopropyl Alcohol
Methanol
Methyl Alcohol
Methyl Salicylate
Nitrilotriacetamide
Phenolic Resin
Polyethylene Glycol
Polyethylene Glycol Mixture
Polyoxylalkylene sulfate
Polysaccharide Blend
Potassium Carbonate
Potassium Chloride
Potassium Hydroxide
Propargyl Alcohol
Propylene Glycol
Silica
Sodium Bicarbonate
Sodium Bromide
Sodium Hydroxide
Sodium Persulphate
Sodium Xylene Sulfonate
Sulfuric Acid
Surfactants
Talc Adomite Aqua
Tetrakis(hydroxymethyl)phosphonium sulfate
Tetramethyl ammonium Chloride
Trimethyloctadecylammonium chloride

Quite a number of these are known carcinogens, or regulated under the Safe Drinking Water Act, or listed as hazardous air pollutants under the Clean Air Act. Oh, and yes, maybe a doctor would need to know the makeup of fracking fluid to treat a patient. Why would any doctor have to keep information about toxic and poisonous substances that are a danger to the general public confidential? That reason could only be to protect the Gas Industry.

You're interested in investments. Well, for most of us the major investment of our lives has been in our homes and property. Once these fracking poisons come anywhere near your property, the property value immediately goes down...and we don't even get a freaking choice about it.

You are getting to choose your investments and have the freedom to do so. People who invest in pipelines need to know that the Marcellus Shale industry is infringing on the basic rights of American citizens and taking away our freedoms, forcing misery on millions of people, decimating wildlife, and polluting our environment.

All that just to ship oil and gas to China.

[badtoworse]

44. In Post 20, I was referring to local governments being preempted by state law.

I actually think the EPA should wear the most blame on this. It should have been involved in this much earlier - taking on a leadership role in 2009 as opposed to still being in a reactive mode in 2012.

I don't think that Pennsylvania has a particularly good record either. In doing research on this, I was very surprised to learn that Pennsylvania has no standards for the construction of private water wells. They too are late in regulating fracking.

As far as local governments go, they simply have no resources and are not in a position to do much of anything (IMO).

As I've said elsewhere on this thread, we need standards to insure that wells are properly constructed and we need strictly enforced regulations to insure that fracking fluids are properly handled, stored and disposed of. With such regulation, I believe fracking can be done safely; without it, there will certainly be problems.

ETA: Our investment mandate will be low carbon sources of energy - gas fired generation and renewables such as wind, solar and biomass. We are also looking at mid-stream gas and electric transmission as potential investments. As I've said, I do believe fracking can be safely and one of the things I am looking at is the regulatory environment and whether the appropriate safeguards are in place. At this point, I do not believe that is the case.

[blue neen]

50. Tom Corrupt's hand-picked crony, Krancer has been quite active in keeping the EPA out.

"Ever since he took office, Depart­ment of Envi­ron­men­tal Pro­tec­tion Sec­re­tary Michael Krancer has been wary of the fed­eral Envi­ron­men­tal Pro­tec­tion Agency. Again and again,he’s chided the EPA and other fed­eral orga­ni­za­tions for get­ting involved in issues he thinks should be reg­u­lated by Pennsylvania."

"Now, as the EPA weighs an effec­tive over­ride of a major DEP deci­sion - deliv­er­ing water to res­i­dents of Dimock, Susque­hanna County, after the state told Cabot Oil and Gas it could stop pro­vid­ing potable flu­ids — Krancer has fired off another deri­sive letter."

http://stateimpact.npr.org/pennsylvania/2012/01/09/krancer-strikes-a-chilly-tone-in-epa-dimock-letter/

Some of the officials in local government are very knowledgeable about fracking, gas companies, drilling. They also may have a better idea about their particular area's topography, geology, and water issues than unknowns who come in from Texas or Oklahoma. IMHO, locals have a much more vested interest in protecting the local citizens, as a lot of these drilling operations affect them personally. Tom Corbett, however, just insured that they truly won't be in a position to do much of anything.

Eventually, fracking may be done safely. That would be great. In the meantime, it is not being done properly or safely. The gas isn't going anywhere. Why is there such a rush to extract it when no one really knows exactly what they are doing and what the impact will be?

It needs to stop NOW!

Thanks.

[badtoworse]

52. Krancer's letter was about methane migration, a different issue

I think the jury is out on that. I'm aware of two studies that were done in Pennsylvania on methane migration. One study, done by Duke University concluded that methane migration was related to fracking with higher concentrations being seen nearer the wells. Another, later study, done by Penn State University found no such correlation. I believe more study is needed to reach a definitive conclusion.

A couple of points to consider. There other potential sources of methane that could come into play, such as coal bed methane and biogenic methane. Given that Pennsylvania has no standards governing private water wells, it's possible that the methane is seeping up from coal beds that are close to the surface - that phenomenon is known to occur in Pennsylvania. Biogenic methane (caused by rotting organic matter in the ground) could find its way into a poorly constructed well.

The shale that is being fracked is thousands of feet below the surface, whereas a water well is at most a few hundred feet. It's hard for me to see how methane could seep through thousands of feet of rock to contaminate ground well. The only way I can see is if the gas well were improperly cased and the methane was leaking from the well. The Penn State study points out that the Duke study was done in 2010 before Pennsylvania upgraded the casing requirements for gas wells.

I personally think more study is needed about methane.

[blue neen]

56. The article actually states that Krancer has tried to block the EPA.

"Ever since he took office, Depart­ment of Envi­ron­men­tal Pro­tec­tion Sec­re­tary Michael Krancer has been wary of the fed­eral Envi­ron­men­tal Pro­tec­tion Agency. Again and again,he’s chided the EPA and other fed­eral orga­ni­za­tions for get­ting involved in issues he thinks should be reg­u­lated by Pennsylvania."

If you re-read that paragraph, I'm sure you'll see the point.

I assume that you are already aware that the Penn State study was funded by the Marcellus Shale Coalition, an industry coalition that fights against environmental protections. Many citizens consider the Penn State study to be biased, particularly about methane contamination of ground water and wells.

It has been found that methane in affected water wells came from drilling; they analyzed the dissolved gas — generating a sort of chemical fingerprint — and found that it was thermogenic methane, which comes from the same rock layers targeted by gas drillers.

There does indeed need to be more study about methane.

[PA Democrat]

54. If the gas industry has their way

they will make sure the EPA is defunded and defanged as well. Corbett has shown them just how CHEAPLY a politician can be bought. I have heard through an excellent source that he is regarded as a joke within the gas industry due to how eagerly he does their bidding.


Thanks for the great info you have added to this thread, blue neen.

[blue neen]

58. You're quite welcome.

We're all just trying to survive in the face of the Gas Industry's propaganda machines. They already own the government here--they also try extremely hard to control the information we receive.

The sad thing is, a lot of the time they are successful. I guess that is what happens when Big Oil and Gas are actually using military psyops to brainwash us all into seeing things their way:

"Matt Carmichael, manager of external affairs for Anadarko Petroleum, which has nearly 300,000 acres of Marcellus Shale gas holdings under lease in Central Pennsylvania, gave a speech urging industry media spokesmen to read a military counterinsurgency manual for tips in dealing with opponents to shale gas development."

"Download the U.S. Army/Marine Corps Counterinsurgency Manual, because we are dealing with an insurgency," Mr. Carmichael said in a session titled "Understanding How Unconventional Oil & Gas Operators are Developing a Comprehensive Media Relations Strategy to Engage Stakeholders and Educate the Public."

"There's a lot of good lessons in there," he said, "and coming from a military background, I found the insight extremely remarkable."

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11317/1189273-503-0.stm#ixzz1mW6bUIzo

Yes, if we don't agree with the Robber Barons we are "insurgents."

Classy, huh?

[MattBaggins]

27. Those fucking trade secrets take a back seat to public health

Medical community needs to know about the substances before exposure to prepare for them not after.

Trade Secrets is not some stupid magic term to hide all information.

If you are directly pumping your "trade secrets" into other peoples vicinities, your trade secrets do not trump their right to know.

[Frack Glop]

64. Gassers are Exempt from RIGHT TO KNOW in PA under this bill

have you leased? because the way you are defending the gift to gasser bill it sounds like you are counting on building a cement pond on your beverly hills estate

[Avalux]

21. Protection is for those who are victims of fracking, not the companies.

When it comes to the safety of human beings, fracking fluid information should be public knowledge, period. I could give a rat's ass if a company claims it as 'proprietary', there should be no burden on physicians or patients to certify a medical need or prove an emergency situation. They should not be required to enter into a confidentiality agreement.

[badtoworse]

22. Has it even happened where a doctor needed to know the makeup of fracking fluid to treat a patient?

If it has, I'm not aware of it and I follow what's going on with natural gas.

There are lots of industrial products that you could make the same argument about. Do you know what those rail tank cars running through your neighborhood are carrying and what you might be exposed to in a derailment? How about that 18 wheeler that just past you on the interstate? What happens if that overturns and dumps its load? What about the household chemicals you've got under the sink? Exposure to many of them could make you very sick or kill you. Assuming you were exposed and had to be treated in the ER, the ER staff would likely have to go through the exact same exercise they would if fracking fluid made you sick. Existing right to know laws cover these situations quite well and have done so for decades. There is no reason why fracking fluid should be special.

[Avalux]

25. Do you work for Marcellus Shale?

Your argument is absurd. Fracking is an environmental and public health catastrophe; the footprint and impact on drinking water and human life is enormous. As I said, a physician should not have to sign an confidentiality agreement and prove medical necessity to get the information needed to treat a patient. Those chemicals should be public knowledge when the lives of so many are and will be impacted.

[badtoworse]

29. You didn't respond to my question, but I'll respond to yours anyway

The answer is no. I've worked in the electric power business for more than 28 years and am currently advising an investment management company that plans to invest in North American energy infrastructure. It's unlikely we would would invest in exploration and production, but pipelines and storage are definite possibilities. I follow what's going in the gas business for a living, but I'm not tied to it.

What makes your opinion an informed one?

[Avalux]

33. Medical professional; public health advocate.

Protection of people's health trumps any 'rights' companies have.

[badtoworse]

35. How many cases have you treated for exposure to fracking fluids or even heard of?

If you have links, I'd be really interested to read about these. I really do want to learn all the facts

[Avalux]

36. There are anecdotal cases -

diagnosis takes awhile and it's almost impossible to prove a causal relationship to fracking chemicals; making it easy for companies to deny the chemicals are harmful (hence no liability).

We do know that the chemical 2-BE can dissolve red blood cells; exposure causes thinning of membranes (nosebleeds) and anemia. Other chemicals (or toxins) include arsenic, hydrogen sulfide, mercury and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons. Exposure to these cause an array of health problems including tumors. It's not safe for people to live near fracking where these chemicals are pumped into the ground; it's not safe for the land, plants and animals who will endure the effects for years and years to come.

A clinical study must be done to collect and analyze data showing a correlation between fracking chemicals and health problems; such a study will take years; we have yet to see the effects of long term exposure. Until people like me can prove a correlation without a doubt, people like you will continue to say fracking is safe. Even then, denial will rule the day as long as there's money to be made.

P.S. - I read some of your other posts and you are mistaken if you think people are showing up at an ER with acute exposure; doesn't work that way.

[PA Democrat]

37. Should we wait for a cancer epidemic?

Congressional probe finds 29 human carcinogens in hydraulic fracturing fluids

Between 2005 and 2009, the nation’s 14 leading natural gas drilling service companies used hydraulic fracturing fluids containing 29 different chemicals regulated under the Safe Drinking Water Act (SDWA) as potential human carcinogens, according to a new congressional report released Saturday.

Nationwide, the companies injected 11.4 million gallons of products containing at least one of the so-called BTEX chemicals (benzene, toluene, xylene, and ethylbenzene), according to the report produced by Democrats on the Energy and Commerce Committee, including Colorado’s Diana DeGette. Colorado, along with Oklahoma and Texas, ranked in the top three for the highest volume of fluids containing possible carcinogens.

“It is deeply disturbing to discover the content and quantity of toxic chemicals, like benzene and lead, being injected into the ground without the knowledge of the communities whose health could be affected,” DeGette said in a release.

“Of particular concern to me is that we learned that over the four-year period studied, over one and a half million gallons of carcinogens were injected into the ground in Colorado. Many companies were also unable to even identify some of the chemicals they were using in their own activities, unfortunately underscoring that voluntary industry disclosure is not enough to ensure the economic benefits of natural gas production do not come at the cost of our families’ health.”

http://coloradoindependent.com/84495/congressional-probe-finds-29-human-carcinogens-in-hydraulic-fracturing-fluids

[blue neen]

40. Here's an example:

"A report showed that 464,231 gallons of fracking fluid containing the toxic chemical 2-BE were injected into West Virginia gas wells and 747,416 gallons of 2-BE bearing fluids were employed in Pennsylvania. This is the same chemical that showed up in contaminated well water in Pavillion, Wyo. and is likely the cause of the adrenal tumor that Laura Amos of Garfield County, Colo. developed after her well water was contaminated by Encana drilling activity."

http://www.frackcheckwv.net/2011/04/17/investigation-yields-list-of-chemicals-used-in-fracking-many-are-known-carcinogens-regulated-pollutants/

[badtoworse]

47. Very good link - thank you

The information is useful.

[MattBaggins]

28. Yes we can find out what is in those rail cars

they have to properly labelled and MSDS info stored along with them. You can look that information up at any time.

I want access to the MSDS sheets for fracking fluids.

[badtoworse]

30. DEP and OSHA already have access to the MSDS sheets under existing law

And all a doctor has to do to get them is ask for them, if he has need.

[me b zola]

41. You're kidding, right?

Sweet Jesus.

Obviously you've never been to a doctor, so I'll clue you in. Every single time you go to see a physician or recieve medical care you are asked to list all substances that you are taking or have been taking, both prescription and over the counter. This is done because it is necessary in diagnosing you and knowing how to treat you.

[badtoworse]

42. How do you take your fracking fluid?

I like mine on the rocks with a twist. Seriously what do your medications have to do with this?

[blue neen]

43. Well, right now I'm drinking mine in my glass of water.

...and so are hundreds of thousands of other people in this particular area.

[badtoworse]

48. How do you know that? Has the water been tested?

If it's documented, has the DEP taken any action?

[blue neen]

57. We're still waiting for the results. Geez, I wonder why it's taking so long.

"Brien Palmer, a business technology consultant and fellow member of the citizens group, said he's not opposed to gas drilling but questions the judgment of the water utility. "The fact that they would drill near a drinking water source first, and not as a last resort, is astonishing," he said. "I'm just not sure what I can say to someone who can't see the absurdity of fracking in a drinking well basin."

"Daniel Jonczak, an electrical engineer who lives two miles from the Beaver Run Reservoir, says that he, too, is a far cry from an anti-drilling activist. He grew up in the 1970s, when Westmoreland County's streams flowed orange from acid mine drainage. So extreme was the damage, Jonczak laments, that local creeks were given names like coal tar run. Gas was always seen as less polluting."

"Yet the decision to lease Beaver Run Reservoir has him extremely worried."

"Are we really sure what's going on with MAWC [Municipal Authority of Westmoreland County] and the water supplied to half of Westmoreland County?" asked Jonczak. "The chance of a spill is just too huge. I don't think they were aware of the risks."

"Officials from the Municipal Authority of Westmoreland County — which is operated by the Pittsburgh-based consulting firm Resource Development & Management — did not respond to repeated requests for comment. (Unrelated to gas drilling, the water utility is being sued by Cross Connection Control Management for allegedly failing to keep customer drinking water and sewage pipelines separate, which would be a violation of the federal Safe Drinking Water Act.)"

"Lynn Seay, a spokeswoman for CNX and its parent company CONSOL Energy, told SolveClimate News in an email: "We have several measures in place to ensure that all is safe and compliant at our Beaver Run operation, consistent with CONSOL's core values." Seay added that a team of faculty and geology students from Indiana University of Pennsylvania will be preforming independent water quality testing several times a year."

http://www.truth-out.org/fracking-drinking-water-source-80000-pennsylvanians-raises-alarms/1311168512

Tick. Tick. Tick. Still waiting. Still not trusting a Municipal Authority who is already being sued for water safety violations.

[PA Democrat]

60. Gee, what could possibly go wrong here?

Two Marcellus drilling sites can be seen in the photo above, one toward the top left edge of the photo and the other toward the middle. Oh, and that body of water next to those wells? That is Beaver Run Reservoir which supplies drinking water to 150,000 people, including my family.





Drilling site overlooks the reservoir that provides drinking water to 150,000 customers in Westmoreland County near Pittsburgh, Pa





A second CNX site near the reservoir with two impoundment dams. One impoundment dam is lined, while the the other is not.

But the gas industry apologists and propagandists think we should just wait and see. After all there are no confirmed deaths.... YET. What's to worry about a huge pool of known carniogens sitting in ponds (some of which aren't even lined) next to our drinking water?

http://www.marcellus-shale.us/Beaver-Run-Reservoir.htm

[blue neen]

61. It makes your hair stand on end, doesn't it?

Now, they are doing more drilling in the area. There are thousands of underground natural springs that all eventually empty into Beaver Run Reservoir. It would be hard to believe that fracking chemicals wouldn't reach any of those springs...

[me b zola]

45. I'll speak slower for you

Foreign substances in your body could possibly effect your health. So physicians need to know what you have been taking or exposed to. Lead paint is a good example. If a child is having neuro and/or cognative symptoms the doctor will want to know if they have been exposed to un-natural substances like lead paint. But of course there are other things that could cause the child's problems, like hazardous chemicals found in fracking fluid. But doctors can't treat until they know what is causing the problem.

[badtoworse]

49. As I understand the new law, it provides a way for doctors to find out

[me b zola]

51. But denies them the ability to warn the public of a huge health risk

Imagine if doctors weren't allowed to warn the public of the dangers of lead paint. Get it? We'd all still be painting our homes with lead paint and taking our children to the doctor with horrible disabilities rather then changing what is allowed to poison our children.

[badtoworse]

53. Does the law prevent them from notifying DEP, EPA, CDC, OSHA, etc.?

That would be the proper course of action.

ETA: The two situations are not quite analogous. I do not believe there is anything restricting doctors' ability to warn the public of potential contamination in their water and suggest having it tested. That is what doctors actually did (and still do) with respect to lead paint. It's recommended that if you live in or are painting an old house, you test the paoint for lead so you can take the proper precautions. If a doctor were dealing with a specific case of lead poisoning caused by a third party (e.g. a landlord), I believe he would report his findings to the proper regulatory authorities who would take action. I would be very surprised if a doctor went public with a warning about lead in a particular apartment complex. Huge potential liability if he did.

[Angry Dragon]

31. badtoworse

It seems your name explains fracking to a 'T'

[Tsiyu]

55. I was thinking the same thing

I love how cheerfully they cheerlead:

"It's all just so WONDERFUL, so just be quiet and go along cuz I can make some moneys off dis! Don't be silly and cause a SCENE or expect any protection! La dee da! It's all good."

I cannot stand that fakey, happy drivel.

[BeHereNow]

59. Those with nothing to hide...

hide nothing.

Sounds like the Frackers have PLENTY to hide if they
are trying to gag doctors from alerting communities they practice in.

BHN

[WinkyDink]

62. Tom Corbett: More Than a Sandusky Player.