I hope the prosecution uses John Good's testimony very carefully

[Duer 157099]

This eyewitness to the Zimmerman/Martin fight says some very important things, that many are taking as good for the defense without really evaluating them critically. I hope the state doesn't gloss over them because there are good points that can be made from his account.

1) He stepped outside when he heard a scuffle going on, but BEFORE anyone cried for help. His account is that GZ was on the bottom and TM straddled him on top. Witness stepped outside his patio door and told them to "cut it out" and ONLY THEN was when he first heard calls for help. I personally think that it was GZ calling for help. Here's the problem: GZ claimed that when he called for help, nobody came, and THAT was why he shot Trayvon. But here's an eyewitness who DID come outside, made his presence known, TOLD the two men rolling around that he was going to call 911, and proceeded to do just that. After the witness went back inside, that's when the gun shot was fired.

So: George (and Trayvon) both KNEW there was a witness who was calling 911. And yet George still thinks his life was so endangered that he had to kill the kid who was trying to hold him down. I hope the prosecution makes hay of this point over and over.

It also impeaches Zimmerman's account of "nobody came to help." Isn't calling 911 the form of help most people a) want and b) offer? Good thing John Good didn't try to physically intervene, or HE may have been on the receiving end of that gunshot, even if by accident. That's why people call 911.

And if I'm Zimmerman, I know that I only have a few more minutes to pull my gun out and shoot the kid on top of me. Why? Because I'm fearful for my life? NO! Because I know the police will be there momentarily and if I don't want this "punk" to "get away" I'd better do something with my gun right fucking now.

That is how I see it.

[JI7]

1. interesting, are any of the media whores bringing this up ?

[longship]

3. Irrelevant. The jury is all who need to hear it. nt

[JI7]

4. well, it could help someone on the prosecution if they had not caught it themselves

to bring it up .

[Duer 157099]

7. Not that I'm aware of n/t

[warrior1]

2. Could you send that to the prosecutors

That makes a lot of sense

[Tommy_Carcetti]

5. Also, if Trayvon knew someone was calling 911....and taking for a moment Zimmerman's account as true

....wherein Trayvon "ambushes" Zimmerman and starts beating him senseless......

....wouldn't Trayvon cease beating the snot out of Zimmerman and high tail it away?

Although I personally don't think it was Zimmerman crying for help. At least not the cries we heard on the 911 call.

[Duer 157099]

6. Depends if he had seen the gun by that point.

If TM had the upper hand or at least had GZ somewhat under control by pinning him down, and then sees the gun, he might figure he'd better keep holding him down before that gun gets put into action. As it did.

I think GZ not only instigated this whole thing, but perhaps even submitted somewhat for the beating so he'd have physical proof of his purported need for self defense. The instructions to the neighbor to call his wife and tell her that he had shot someone was bizarre, very bizarre. The neighbor started telling his wife more details, like that he was cuffed and being taken in for questioning, and GZ cuts him off and tells him "just tell her I shot someone" almost like "see? I told you I would." I bet he told her not long before something like "I swear, I'm going to shoot this guy if I find him." And the phone call was his confirmation to her that he did just that.

[Lurks Often]

8. It is very probable that neither Martin or Zimmerman

were ever aware of Good's presence or anything he said. Regardless of who you believe, both of them were almost certainly well into fight or flight response: http://psychology.about.com/od/findex/g/fight-or-flight-response.htm which includes auditory exclusion: http://panicdisorder.about.com/od/glossaryah/g/AuditoryExcl.htm

So it is very likely neither Martin or Zimmerman heard or saw John Good

[Tommy_Carcetti]

9. Of course, fight or flight also wouldn't have Trayvon "ambushing" Zimmerman in the first place.

Both Zimmerman and Rachel's accounts agree on one major thing:

Trayvon fled Zimmerman and initially lost Zimmerman. So why would Trayvon then decided to double back and attack the person that he was so afraid of that he fled?

[Lurks Often]

14. Not sure where you got

"fight or flight also wouldn't have Trayvon "ambushing" Zimmerman in the first place" from my post. Whether Martin did or did not ambush is irrelevant to the point I was trying to make on what happens to the human body during a fight, similar stress situations or other life and death situations.

Fight or Flight is an automatic response and is laid out in the link I provided.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

33. Before considering the micro, consider the macro as it relates to fight or flight.

Someone who is being chased for reasons unknown and manages to lose his pursuer--flight won. There's no reason to fight. Yet people are assuming that Trayvon felt the need to fight despite the fact his instinct was for flight, and at least initially that decision worked to his benefit.

[Lurks Often]

34. My comment was not meant to be a statement

about the choices either of them made that night.

It was to only point out that it was entirely possible and even probable that neither of them heard or saw John Goode when he went outside before going back inside to call 911

[Duer 157099]

12. Possible, except that, according to Good, when he stepped outside and yelled "Cut it out"

only THEN did one of the men start yelling for help, as if in response to his (Good's) presence. Good said that the man on top did not respond to his presence at all. Which sounds like he felt the man on the bottom certainly DID respond to his presence. Thus, he told them he was calling 911.

[ksoze]

10. Your facts are not correct

The transcript says he heard the yell for help THEN told them to stop"

“Yeah I pretty much heard somebody yelling outside. I wasn’t sure if it was, you know, a fight or something going wrong. So I opened my blinds and I see kind of like a person out there. I didn’t know if it was a dog attack or something. So I open my door. It was a black man with a black hoodie on top of the other, either a white guy or now I found out I think it was a Hispanic guy with a red sweatshirt on the ground yelling out help! And I tried to tell them, get out of here, you know, stop or whatever, and then one guy on top in the black hoodie was pretty much just throwing down blows on the guy kind of MMA-style.”

Please post other testimony that supports your claim.

[Duer 157099]

11. Point me to a transcript of today's testimony and I'll find it for you

ETA: my facts are based directly on TODAY's testimony from the witness stand. You are wrong.

[ksoze]

13. You made the assertion. Back it up.

O'MARA: I apologize for not asking the question the right way, when was the first time that you heard the person on the bottom scream for help?

GOOD: When I initially went outside, I didn't see a second person, then I could see a second person and it sounded like it was coming from the person on the bottom because usually when someone is on top the person on the bottom is the one screaming or yelling. And that was when I heard that, but I didn't hear anything after.

[Duer 157099]

15. Why do I need to when you just did?

"When was the first time (you heard screams for help)?"

"When I initially went outside."

You said that wasn't true. Now you say it is. Which is it?

[ksoze]

16. Your contradicting yourself. Read your original post.

You said that the yelling started AFTER he told them to stop.

The testimony refutes that and your original post:

1) He stepped outside when he heard a scuffle going on, but BEFORE anyone cried for help. His account is that GZ was on the bottom and TM straddled him on top. Witness stepped outside his patio door and told them to "cut it out" and ONLY THEN was when he first heard calls for help.

[Duer 157099]

17. When I locate a transcript of today's testimony, I'll post it

He said what I said he said. I just cannot find a transcript yet.

I thought you were disputing that the cries for help begain after John Good went outside. Now I see that you are disputing whether the helps started before or after Good's "Cut it out."

[ksoze]

18. We look forward to it.

[Duer 157099]

19. No, I bet you won't

because it absolutely 100% will say exactly what I said: that he stepped outside, neither of the two men said ANYTHING before John Good FIRST spoke to them, upon which the man on the bottom said "Help."

Hope you're willing to admit when you're wrong.

[HangOnKids]

20. We? Did your 9 year coma make you royalty?

You seem very confused.

[Duer 157099]

21. Here is a quick version. Let me know if you still dispute it.

Prosecutor: Initially when you first stepped out, did you hear any yelling?

Good: Not initially when I stepped out.

Prosecutor: And when you did step out and you said something,
did any of the individuals, prior to you saying something,
did you hear any of them say something at that point?

Good: Nope.

Prosecutor: And you mentioned that they said something.
Was it after you said something to the individuals?

Good: Yes

[ksoze]

22. Well we have dueling transcripts it seems

What exactly are you trying to prove?

[Duer 157099]

23. That you were mistaken when you said I was wrong.

Is that not what is happening? You said I had the facts wrong. Did you say that? Did I just prove that I had the facts correct?

[keta1945]

24. Listen to Mr. Good's 911 call

There seems to be a discrepancy in the way Mr. Good reports his "stepping outside", and the way he speaks to the 911 operator, when he says, They're wrestling around beside my back porch..."I'm Not going Outside..."as if to suggest that would be crazy! That would be the normal reaction. He also is reporting to the operator as if from inside the house, and he doesn't say ANYTHING about having stepped outside, or spoken to them, at all. He' not sure if it's a "gunshot, or a rock being thrown at my window."

I had already questioned his being so bold as to step outside, and say,"What's going on? Stop it!" Which seems to be rather macho, in light of the screams reported by other neighbors, and no one else, including Mr. Manolo, ventured outside, and in fact told his wife not to get involved.

But, when they played the 911 tape of his call, his voice was very nervous, excited, and showed the expected anxiety in reporting the events. That seemed more credible, than his calm report today, saying that he spoke with the same slow cadence, with hesitation between words, as he did today on the stand.

His description of colors, which require light to elicit, seems also a bit too convenient, as no one else could see anything, and required flashlights to see anything. We all knew the color of the jackets the next day, as it appeared on the news. I'm sure he looked at the men after the police were there, and it was now safe for him to go outside.

Doesn't sound like a macho type to me...

What are your thoughts?

[Duer 157099]

25. I think that if Mr. Good were a 19-year-old friend of Martin's

his contradictions would be picked apart by the media and everyone else. But for some reason, he's getting a pass. Wonder why?

Aside from that, I can imagine that when he first went outside, he was still thinking it was a dog fight. Nobody had been yelling at that point so he wasn't even sure there were two people involved and not just one and a dog or two dogs. But, after he went outside and got a better look, and spoke to them and then heard the screaming start, he went back inside to call 911. While dialing, he heard the gunshot. So yeah, his disposition may have changed dramatically when he heard the gunshot.

[keta1945]

29. 911 call Mr. Good

I think the obvious reasons in a patriarchal society, as well as he is articulate, appears confidant, and looks them in the eye. If you have this combination of characteristics, as well as nod your head frequently in the affirmative while speaking, and look like you have business there, you can make almost anyone believe what you are saying...anywhere. You appear..."credible". The only way to debunk this type, is to carefully "fact-check".

If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is!

As to to the scenario you posit with the dog fight, would you go outside to tell 2 dogs that were fighting to "stop it?" I would be even less likely to interrupt two fighting dogs, who also have epinephrine, and "fight or flight" instinct in play.

He also stated when asked about the patio door being open or closed, that "I probably didn't care about the patio door, so I probably didn't close it." Also, when asked if others were outside, or looking out windows, he stated he wasn't focused on anything else...just looking at them on the ground. He stated that he couldn't remember what he heard, because probably, his "fight or flight had kicked in, and auditory suppression had occurred".

That didn't fly in the Jodi Arias trial...seems there is indeed a double standard going on.

I think he has too many answers that he states are "rational", not that he remembers, but that he 'reasons" must be the case. i.e., "the guy on the bottom is probably the one screaming, because he was on the bottom", and "if the guy on top was screaming, it would have bounced off the wall at me, rather than the sound come toward me"...not that he SAW who was screaming, nor did he "reason" that a just turned 17-y/o boy would have a voice in transition from puberty, and have the high-pitched tonal scream that was heard by others, sounding like a boy, rather than a fully mature 27-yr/old man.

Another scenario, rather than screaming because you are on the bottom, is being on the top, and seeing a gun, one would try to hold his hands/arms down, and scream for help.

Lastly, it is curious that Mr. Manolo found it strange that George Zimmermans desire was for him to report to his wife that "I shot somebody"...so much so, that he would interrupt Mr.Monolo trying to gently explain to his wife his current status, in being arrested, saying, "Just tell her I shot somebody."

All in all, quite curious!

[uppityperson]

26. Did they bring up the colors in the dark bit? Not being able to see colors in the dark?

[keta1945]

27. 911 call of Mr. Good

They did not.

[Go Vols]

28. I used to fight a lot when I was a young man

and in a tough fight, everything going on around me was background noise whether winning or losing.
Fighting isn't like chess,you get in a zone and are focused on the matter at hand.

[keta1945]

31. 911 call Mr.Good

Agreed...but...Mr. Good wasn't the one fighting...was he? Remember, he was just calmly telling them to "stop it" or "cut it out". "I'm going to call 911"...by his own report.

[ChiciB1]

30. I Live In Florida & Actually Took Part In A

"Justice For Trayvon" March here in Sarasota, so I guess I'm biased. THAT was fun??? Not exactly a place that seems to give a hoot about TM!

I'm also extremely P.O'ed seeing this guy smiling & laughing with his lawyer!! IMO, he's a smug fat f--k who seems a bit arrogant at the fact that he's been charged with anything!

Yes, he does deserve his day in court, but given some interpretations about what I hear as "self defense" I'm getting very worried that he just might WALK!

For me, as an observer it's been difficult to watch the trial. I don't usually watch trials, but felt this is one I should. Not sure I'll be able to stick it out to the finish. Some comments made locally in this "white bread" community are simply disgusting. And I'm a white female myself.

Defense said Trayvon who weighed around 157 lbs and around 6' wasn't very thin! Say what? And today, his Dr. said Zimmerman is around 5' 7" and 204... OBESE by her calculations. Just making comments like this irritate me.

Anyway, my comments are disjointed at best, but felt a need to say "something" before I try to sleep as I'm simply unsettled by all of it! If he walks, I'm afraid I'm going to come unglued. Fair on my part or not!

JMHO

[keta1945]

32. 911 call Mr. Good

I applaud you for having the courage of your convictions...that's never easy in an environment that holds to a different philosophy!

Thanks to all for replying to my post. It's nice to have a place for civil discourse...the television doesn't answer...no matter how many times you respond to it!

God Bless...sleep well!