Listening to Trayvon Martin trial

[madaboutharry]

It seems that the entire defense of George Zimmerman is based on the theory that Trayvon Martin had no right to fight for his life.

[sinkingfeeling]

1. Yep, because only armed people are entitled to 'self-defense'.

[pnwmom]

4. There is evidence that he was afraid the larger man who had been following him

was going to attack him -- and under those circumstances, he wouldn't know how bad it could get. Anyone could fear for their life in that situation, not knowing what the other person's intent was, but knowing the other person was acting bizarrely. Once TM started trying to get away, every step GZ took toward him was a threat.

[Whisp]

7. Dub-V-You - hmm, at first glance it read to me as: Dub-L-You. hmmm.

interesting!

[pnwmom]

12. We don't know who threw the first punch, but under the Stand Your Ground

theory, I think TM should have been more entitled to throw the first punch than GZ was to shoot the first bullet.

That's the insanity of that law. You're allowed to "defend" yourself by taking the first shot, but apparently not by throwing the first punch.

[uppityperson]

20. Being followed in a car and then on foot, seems reasonable to be afraid. But then I'm not a black 17

yr old in Florida so maybe I am just projecting.

[pnwmom]

26. Trayvon was clearly AFRAID that he was about to be attacked,

and that fear was NOT unreasonable. He was alone in the dark at night being pursued by some larger, older man. Any rational person would be afraid in those circumstances. And Rachel was fearful for him too, and they discussed that.

[pnwmom]

30. And it doesn't mean GZ could shoot anyone GZ followed at night,

even if by his actions he did provoke the younger, smaller person into throwing a punch.

[pnwmom]

46. Under Florida's Stand your ground law, a person who's being followed

and feeling threatened should be just as entitled to throw a first punch as a gun owner should be to fire the first bullet.

GZ wasn't prosecuted under Stand your ground, but that's irrelevant since we're talking about TM's possible culpability. IF he did throw the first punch -- which no one knows he did -- then he should be entitled under Stand Your Ground to have done so. How can a man be entitled to proactively defend himself with a gun but not with his fists?

[pnwmom]

67. There have been people found not guilty under SYG who shot people who were just

in the shooters' yards, not threatening them at all. But the shooter was AFRAID, so he was let off.

[pnwmom]

77. Sure. And this one's even worse. The circumstances are similar to GZ: the shooter followed

the victim.

The reason you don’t see more of these cases at trial is that judges dismiss them on the grounds of stand your ground or the Castle doctrine before they ever get to a jury. Like this Florida case:

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/04/29/us/stand-your-ground

Proponents of Florida's Stand Your Ground law say it was never intended to apply to people who pursue someone and then use deadly force. "There's nothing in the statute that authorizes pursuit, confrontation or provocation and altercation," said Rep. Dennis Baxley, one of the sponsors of the 2005 law.

"Everything in this statute says, 'Defend yourself if you are a law-abiding citizen,'" he added. "We stand by you and the presumption of the law is with you."

But how much on the defensive was Greyston Garcia when he chased a suspected thief for a block and confronted him before killing him early on the morning of January 25, 2011? Where should authorities draw the line?

Police arrested Garcia, and prosecutors believed they had enough evidence to charge him with second-degree murder. But a judge dismissed the case late last month, citing Stand Your Ground.

[pnwmom]

168. I didn't bother to look for one because I ran into this one first,

and it's even worse than shooting someone in your yard. The shooter didn't shoot someone intruding into his own yard -- he followed him for a block and then shot him.

[pnwmom]

173. Right, he stabbed him. And the judge let him off based on stand your ground.

So Trayvon should have had every right to punch the guy who was following him around, based on stand your ground.

[uppityperson]

178. Trayvon was not in zimmys yard.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

140. "Feeling threatened is not reason to resort to violence"

Like shooting someone?

[Blue_Roses]

53. the "provocation" started when Zimmerman continued to

follow TM after he was told not to. Zimmerman was the clear aggressor from the get-go.

[Blue_Roses]

79. that makes no sense...

and yes, following someone can be provocation in of itself.
prov·o·ca·tion (pr v -k sh n) n. 1. The act of provoking or inciting. 2. Something that provokes.

[uppityperson]

81. "following someone is not a provocative act". Incredible. nt

[uppityperson]

87. Following someone in the dark with your car and then on ft = sales person going to dressing room?

:

[uppityperson]

93. Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

[WinkyDink]

94. May DubV be followed at night while you are merely walking in your naighborhood.

[uppityperson]

101. Did you see this part? Hahahahahahahahahahaha

"customers could assault any sales person who followed them back to a dressing room"

[uppityperson]

105. BWahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahaaha!!!!!!!!!!!

[uppityperson]

31. And it doesn't mean he can shoot anyone HE follows at night either. Like he did.

[WinkyDink]

90. AHEM. Z was NOT AFRAID. People in FEAR do not STALK the person they fear. GET IT?

[uppityperson]

103. Yup, Z only accidentally was driving, then parked and walked, in the same way TM went, setting

aside his 911 call that he was stalking him.

[uppityperson]

107. "sales person following you to a dressing room". Snort. Hahahahahahahahahaha

[uppityperson]

111. hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[pnwmom]

169. They presented plenty of evidence of stalking at the trial,

along with evidence that the 911 operator told him to stop.

[pnwmom]

172. Stalking has a legal and a conventional definition, and no one here is barred

from using the conventional definition.

[notadmblnd]

138. And it doesn't mean GZ could shoot anyone he was following either

Yet he did. If GZ was afraid,he should have kept his ass in the car until police arrived and not followed TM as the 911 dispatcher suggested.

[hfojvt]

193. How can you possibly think you know that?

I say that Trayvin was not afraid - based on all the things he didn't do

1. he didn't run home, even though he had a 1 minute head start
2. he didn't call the police to report somebody following him
3. he didn't call anybody else for help
4. he didn't use his phone. a pretty obvious defense is to take a picture of somebody with your phone and quickly send it. That way the potential attacker knows they cannot get away with their attack.

Further, I say he was not afraid, because he thought he could kick Zimmerman's a$$, and given the scenario of him being on top of Zimmerman and pounding on him, he would not have been wrong to think so.

Further, perhaps Trayvon did not know it, but if you are attacked, or fear attack, your primary defense should be - with your feet. That is - you run away. If you pop somebody in the nose and knock them down, you use that edge to take flight. You don't jump on top of them, because that gives them a chance to turn the tables, perhaps with the gun you don't know they have.

At least that's how I learned self defense in the 9th grade, and it makes sense to me, especially since I am small and kinda speedy.

Again, not that Trayvin would know that, but I think it is worth using this incident to educate the wider public.

[Voice for Peace]

55. there is no evidence that trayvon hit zimmerman. period. there is a bloody nose of unknown origin.

[appleannie1]

54. Do you know something the rest of us don't? The evidence seems to indicate Trayvon was simply

responding to a perceived threat. Even the call Zimmerman made indicates that he is the one that initiated contact.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

66. Why would Trayvon ambush someone chasing him for no apparent reason after having lost him?

I've asked that question over and over again to people who take Zimmerman's story at face value, and I've yet to get a logical response.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

76. No such criminal record.

I don't believe there is even any anecdotal evidence of that even, at least not from any reliable source.

We know that George Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon. We know that George Zimmerman got out of his car, armed with a gun, knowing police were on the way, and said "These assholes always get away" and "fucking punks". We know that the leading detective, Chris Sorino, felt that Zimmerman's injuries were hardly consistent with his story of having his head bashed in repeatedly. That all we do know.

We don't know everything, but we do know a good amount.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

99. So you just want to play "what if" and pull speculation clear out of your ass?

I tell you who did have a criminal record.....

Detective Sorino has yet to testify. There have already been several strong prosecution witnesses.

[Little Star]

86. Zimmerman had previous episodes of violence but I have not...

heard of Trayvon having any.

[Hoyt]

84. Let's not forget it was a bigot with a gun stalking an unarmed teenager.

[arely staircase]

108. what makes you assume the smaller person who was being chased did the attacking?

nt

[notadmblnd]

134. There has been no evidence presented that TM attacked GZ

Only GZ's statement to police and there's definately no reason to take GZs word for it.

See how that works?

[Bjorn Against]

6. Zimmerman was following Trayvon with a gun

No matter how much the gun nuts try to deny that it is threatening to follow someone in the dark with a gun most people who are not morons know that guns do pose a threat.

[Fla Dem]

11. I would be surprised if Mr Zimmerman didn't make his gun visible.

He was in that frame of mind, wasn't gonna let any n***** punk get away this time. Use his gun for intimidation.

[uppityperson]

22. Only Zimmy's solemn word. Bless his truth telling little soul.

[naaman fletcher]

116. It doesn't make sense the gun was already out.

Why would Trayvon be on top of Zimmerman holding him down (or punching him) and just let Zim's hand continue to hold on to an already displayed gun?

[Bjorn Against]

13. Nobody knows that aside from the murderer

Whether Trayvon knew or not however is irrelevant, Zimmerman DID have a gun and he WAS a threat, not only was he a threat but the threat actually materialized.

[uppityperson]

18. Is it unreasonable to think a black teenager being followed by a "creepy ass cracker" might have

something to fear?

[uppityperson]

29. So a black 17 yr old being followed at night not only in a vehicle but then on foot at has nothing

to fear. Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.

[uppityperson]

40. I can never remember the difference between a strawman and red herring.

[uppityperson]

50. Not at all. You seem to think the pigment of his skin had no bearing on whether or not he felt fear.

You also seem to think you can put words in my mouth. Not at all either. You do NOT, however, seem able to answer whether a black 17 yr old male in Florida being followed after dark by a light skinned man both in a car and then on foot would have anything to worry about.

[uppityperson]

65. You will not answer. OK. Bye.

You do NOT, however, seem able to answer whether a black 17 yr old male in Florida being followed after dark by a light skinned man both in a car and then on foot would have anything to worry about.

[uppityperson]

75. "lies, damned lies and statistics". Too bad he was followed by an asshole with a gun, period.

The fact that TM was black, 17, Zimmy was older skinhead light skinned DOES influence whether or not TM had a rational fear.

[uppityperson]

80. You will not answer.

You do NOT, however, seem able to answer whether a black 17 yr old male in Florida being followed after dark by a light skinned man both in a car and then on foot would have anything to worry about.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

143. I believe the correct term is "Straw Herring"

On edit, what do you know? Urban Dictionary already has it covered:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=straw%20herring

[HockeyMom]

154. Make it a FEMALE

Can a woman attack any male for follows her? BTW, ask Zimmerman's ex-girfriend (Order of Protection) or the female bar patron who was thrown against the wall by bouncer Zimmerman.

I will give you this. Mr. Macho Man (look up my post on that) Zimmerman has problems with females also. It seems anybody who is less powerful than him who he can bully around. Oh, BTW, Zimmy tried this with a cop and got himself arrested. Apparently, Daddy Judge saved his ass on that one.

[HockeyMom]

161. He is MORE than a Racist

Understand? He needs serious mental health counseling. Hopefully, he will receive that in prison.

[HockeyMom]

166. I said he was MORE than a Racist

That is only one part of it. He is a violent person against anyone he thinks is not equal to him. Women, blacks, people with paper bags, eating skittles or slim jims, bla, bla, bla. He was the lawman, judge, and jury.

[uppityperson]

180. "what makes him racist in the first place?" probably his upbringing since his dad is a published one

[Bjorn Against]

25. How do you know that Trayvon did not know there was a gun?

You don't know what Trayvon knew, but we do know the fact that he was unarmed and he is now dead. Zimmerman was the only person with a weapon and he used that weapon to kill. That is what is relevant, we don't know what Trayvon knew or did not know. We do know that Zimmerman was a threat and that threat actually materialized.

[uppityperson]

36. No. Trayvon had a rational fear. And why do you keep assuming he "didn't know there was a gun"?

Black 17 yr old male in Florida? You think it "irrational fear" to feel fear when being followed in a car and then on foot by a light skinned man.

[uppityperson]

43. Do you have evidence he didn't know? And again, strawman or red herring?

You think it an "irrational fear" for a black 17 yr old male in Florida to feel fear when being followed in a car and then on foot by a light skinned man. Gotcha.

[uppityperson]

68. Overall, Trayvon was more likely to live to be in his 60's at least. Aren't statistics fun and

meaningless when you look at one situation?

You have no evidence and think it an "irrational fear" for a black 17 yr old male in Florida to feel fear when being followed in a car and then on foot by a light skinned man.

[Hoyt]

85. When a bigot is following/stalking you at night -- you can be sure he has a gun.

The friggin coward would have stayed in his car otherwise.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

114. There's a strong argument that he engaged in racial profiling that night.

He doesn't need to be a KKK member to have a stereotypical and biased view towards young black males.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

122. Did he? I haven't heard that yet.

Or are you just making shit up?

(That's not rhetorical....if he actually followed a suspicious white kid on Feb 26, 2012, please come forward with the evidence and I will give you kudos.)

Zimmerman witnessed Trayvon commit no crime. All Zimmerman said was that he was walking slowly in the rain, at one point apparently having his hand around his waste (that in and of itself not being a crime.) Zimmerman did not identify Trayvon as being the same person who had committed a prior crime in the neighborhood.

So yes, Zimmerman did profile Trayvon. Undeniably, he profiled Trayvon. And I'll bet the combination of his race and age had a good amount to do with it.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

128. You just said he followed a white person that night too.

I never, ever heard that. Ever.

Did it actually happen, or are you just making shit up? Please answer the question.

He called police at least 5 times before regarding black males he believed suspicious. It's quite possible Trayvon fit that same profile, because Trayvon too was a black male.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

132. Okay, typically, when one says "Did he not...." at the beginning of a question....

....they are attempting to argue the subsequent statement as fact and intend the question as rhetorical.

So yes, you make bullshit up.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

137. Your punctuation didn't confuse me.

Your phrasing of fictional statements as fact, when they are clearly not, shows you for who you are.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

145. And I gave you a response?

It was a well reasoned response?

Unlike your pull it out of your ass bullshit?

You're a smooth smoothie, you know.

[uppityperson]

182. No. He did not. Oh, tell Frank I said hi. Eom

[Hoyt]

127. Yes, all I need. Maybe not to your satisfaction, but maybe you just don't

want to accept the truth. You might not even care about why this happened.

[Hoyt]

135. No, they found it didn't rise to a hate crime thay could be proven.

I suppose your posts don't either, but they sure are "suspicious."

[Hoyt]

150. I suspect the only way you'd accept Zimmy is a bigot is if he lynched someone.

Truthfully, you probably would find a way to rationalize that as well.

Enjoy your trial.

[Blue_Roses]

56. It doesn't matter

what TM "thought". The FACT is, GZ did have a gun and shot him, AFTER being told to NOT follow him.

[Zoeisright]

14. What a bunch of bullshit.

Zimmerman was stalking that poor kid. If you think it's fine for armed idiots to go around following kids walking through neighborhoods, you need some serious help.

[nashville_brook]

23. if you're a SYG fan, then surely you can appreciate that being stalked at night

is cause for wanting to protect yourself.

[riverwalker]

57. when an armed man started to follow him n/t

[uppityperson]

70. I do not think it was irrelevant to Trayvon Martin, his family or his friends. Good lord.

[uppityperson]

78. 17 yr old claiming he is afraid of a man following him is "little ridiculous". Gotcha. And no, the

gun is not irrelevant at all. Did you miss the fact that Zimmy shot and killed TM with the gun? You seriously missed this?

[uppityperson]

175. Wrong. It is very possible to be afraid of an armed man if you do not know he is armed.

[uppityperson]

177. Nope. I'd be afraid of an armed man.

[hrmjustin]

185. He and the other Zimmerman lover are gone!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=303475&sub=trans

[uppityperson]

186. Thank you, thanks MIRT and great reason!

[hrmjustin]

179. Now I see why you went from 1-81 in 24 hours.

[uppityperson]

187. Blame me, playing around with it. It followed me home but I didn't get to keep it.

[hrmjustin]

188. LOl His first 5 posts were to me. I guess i bored him after that.

[HangOnKids]

92. The Only Reason There Is A Case & Trial Is Because Zim Was Armed

If this was a "dust up" fight between 2 people this would not have ever come to trial. Sorry Raider Dub the gun makes this relevant. Did you sign up on DU to educate us? Sorry, sadly it is NOT working. Is Rush on soon?

[HangOnKids]

118. IT IS A MURDER TRIAL

Did you miss that fact? Please keep on dude your posts are comedy gold.

[HangOnKids]

130. Are you waiting for JaMarcus to come back to the Raiders too? n/t

[HangOnKids]

142. Final Countdown 3...2...1

[uponit7771]

91. AT THE TIME OF THE ILLEGAL STALKING!!!!

[noiretextatique]

126. it takes an especial kind of stupidity

to suggest that an unarmed person's life was not threatened by the armed man who was following him.

[Cali_Democrat]

3. Yup

Many people think unarmed African American teenagers shouldn't be allowed to defend themselves.

Zimmerman follows, stalks and confronts Martin. It seems to me that Trayvon had every right to kick his ass and defend himself.

[csziggy]

15. A lot don't think African American teenagers have the right to walk down a street!

Because that seems to be the only reason Zimmerman targeted Martin. Whatever happens with this trial, I hope Zimmerman gets counselling for his paranoia. Otherwise he will continue to be a danger to others in his community.

[ksoze]

9. The defense has not presented yet. Please share time machine codes.

[nashville_brook]

21. yup, and i'd add that with their treatment of Rachel yesterday

they're putting being black on trial as well. the way she was treated on the stand was shameful.

[ksoze]

27. Putting being black on trial?

What are you listening to? Are you posting on the wring board?

[uppityperson]

34. What? That poster is talking about how the young woman was treated yesterday.

What are you talking about?

[customerserviceguy]

32. You haven't heard any of the defense yet

Only the defense team tearing down the state's witnesses. That's what's supposed to happen in a criminal trial.

In answer to your point, my bet is that the defense will portray a picture of GZ down on the ground, Martin over him, landing blows, and GZ thinking that Martin is going for his gun. At that exact second, they will have established a theory of the case that allows self-defense, and I think that there will be no evidence to refute that. It comes down to what six women will think when they imagine themselves with only one possible chance to live.

[madaboutharry]

41. Yes we have.

Cross-examination serves to lay out the defense that is coming.

[ksoze]

44. And the laying out is not good for prosecution

[customerserviceguy]

49. I've been watching O'Meara during this whole thing

I'm thinking he probably has something surprising when he gets to put on his side of the case. It's true, in most cases, you can tell the theory of the defense's case from most cross-examinations of prosecution witnesses, but most lawyers aren't as cunning as O'Meara.

[yardwork]

47. This woman has no sympathy for Zimmerman

If Zimmerman was in fear (and it's not clear to me that he was) it was due to Zimmerman putting himself in danger. Anything that happened as a result of his foolish behavior was his fault.

That is mom reasoning. Ask any mom.

[customerserviceguy]

51. Yes, moms sometimes like to see their kids suffer some consequences

when their kids do something stupid. But getting killed by a guy beating the crap out of you is not the same thing as getting an F on the test you didn't study for.

O'Meara's going to play that jury like a fiddle. He's going to use "mom reasoning" in a way that may shock you. He didn't take this case to lose it, he knows that if he gets an acquittal for someone who has been fully convicted in the media that his fees will reach in the tens of millions. Nervous banksters are watching his performance, and he knows that.

[yardwork]

112. Meh. Trayvon Martin was killed, not Zimmerman

[customerserviceguy]

190. One or the other was going to die that night

It's just a matter of which one got to the gun first, after the brawling started on the street.

[yardwork]

196. Nonsense. That's the killer's story. I don't believe it.

[customerserviceguy]

197. What matters is if the jury believes it

Either GZ messed up his own head on the concrete, or Trayvon did. I guess you find the former believable, I don't.

[HangOnKids]

125. Before You Chime In With More Wisdom You Should Get O'Mara's Name Correct

It is obvious you know nothing about Mothering or fiddling for that matter.

[customerserviceguy]

189. And it's my guess that he knows

something about all three, including the spelling of his name.

[HangOnKids]

192. But you didn't know how to spell his name or did not take time to search it

Coming after your diatribe about attention to detail and education, I just find that amusing.

[riverwalker]

58. John Good was "star" defense witness

but prosecution had to call him first.
If that's all Z's team has?......I'm not impressed.

[customerserviceguy]

191. I doubt it's all the defense has

When O'Mara gets his stuff started, you're going to see all kinds of outrage vented here. He will find a way to put Trayvon Martin on trial, it's the best chance he's got to show that his client was in desperate fear for his life while the brawl went on.

[Humanist_Activist]

195. A "brawl", I would classify it as assault, that he initiated...

which should disqualify any attempt at a defense on this.

If he was afraid for his life, then he shouldn't have assaulted Trayvon Martin in the first place. His fault, his responsibility, the worst thing you could say about Trayvon Martin was that he wasn't equipped enough to defend his life. Zimmerman should, by all rights, be dead, instead its the reverse, which is sad.

[customerserviceguy]

198. Yes, it would have gone better for all concerned

if GZ had stayed in his vehicle. But once the two of them started mixing it up on the ground, with a gun present, only one of them was going to survive.

There's an old saying among cops that they'd rather be tried by twelve than carried by six, and there's a history of how to build a defense on the idea of "it was him or me". I'm sure GZ's lawyer has tried out various strategies on focus groups, and knows which one will be most effective. It's no guarantee, of course, but being as he's done pretty well so far, I would put my money on it succeeding rather than failing. To lawyers, truth is a minor obstacle on the way to the result,

[yardwork]

38. Seems that way to me too.

Doesn't Florida have a Stand Your Ground law that allows people to fight back when threatened?

[hobbit709]

42. It's the Zimmerman trial

[customerserviceguy]

52. Excellent point

I saw the title of the OP, and let it slide until I read your post. It indicates that many here who are viewing the trial are doing so through the lens of their own preconceptions. Trayvon Martin looks like he is the one on trial to them. Clever, cunning attorneys know this, and I expect O'Meara to try to play that jury like a fiddle.

[Dawson Leery]

48. Agreed.

[DrDan]

96. it is not up to the defense to prove anything - it is up to the prosecutor to prove their charges

[Tommy_Carcetti]

113. They do have to prove self-defense by a preponderance of the evidence.

The state bears the ultimate burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, but when a defendant is arguing self defense (an "affirmative defense&quot they have some affirmative obligation to back it up, albeit at a lower standard.

[DrDan]

146. this is not a self-defense hearing - they waived that and went to trial

the defense need not prove anything - the jury will decide whether the charges brought by the prosecutors are legit or not

[Tommy_Carcetti]

148. It's not a stand your ground hearing before the judge.

It's a trial before a jury where the affirmative defense of use of deadly force in self-defense has been raised by the defendant.

And the jury does have to weigh the defendant's argument of self-defense under the preponderance of the evidence.

[DrDan]

153. the state has to prove second degree murder

if they cannot do that - it's over

[Bjorn Against]

139. False, the burden is on the defendent to prove deadly force was necessary

The state only needs to prove Zimmerman killed Martin, something that is not even in dispute. Zimmerman is arguing the killing was justified, the burden is on him to justify it. The state only needs to prove a crime was committed, they do not have to prove it was not justified.

[DrDan]

149. the charge is second degree murder - the prosecutors must prove that

[Bjorn Against]

151. Yes they need to prove second degree murder

They do not however need to prove that Zimmerman did not act in self defense, he needs to prove that he did act in self defense.

[DrDan]

152. nothing matters if they do not prove second degree murder

[Bjorn Against]

156. Considering an unarmed teenager is dead and Zimmerman admitted killing him...

The charge is not difficult to prove, self defense is far more difficult to prove in this case than murder is.

[DrDan]

157. don't believe it has been proven yet

and think it is going to be difficult to prove

[Bjorn Against]

160. Not legally it hasn't and it can't be legally proven until the trial is over

The evidence however is overwhelming that this was second degree murder, the evidence that Zimmerman acted in self defense is flimsy at best.

[Marrah_G]

120. If he gets off every murder in FL will use this as an excuse

Because hey.... they other person isn't around to tell the other side.

[riverwalker]

147. this medical report

saying he did "Intensive Mixed Martial Arts" 3 times a week is going to be significant

[bravenak]

165. Against a gun carrying madman.

He sure sounded mad at those punks who always get away. Why should a punk be able to defend himself? I don't get the defense. I would have plea bargained if I killed a kid.

[hfojvt]

194. why fight for his life?

His life was not in danger.

Not unless and until it can be shown that Zimmerman attacked him.

So what was Trayvon supposed to be fighting against? Was Trayvon scared of the way Zimmerman was pummeling Trayvin's fist with his nose?

The whole lynch Zimmerman argument seems to be based on the idea that once Zimmerman got out of his car, that he deserved to get the shit beaten out of him, and he had no right to defend himself.