I believe it was Zimmerman screaming

[Duer 157099]

He strikes me (and many) as a coward. Talks big, walks big, but when the rubber hits the road, he's a coward. Needed that sidearm to make up for courage.

I think when Rachel joked (?) to Trayvon that the creepy-ass cracker following him was probably a rapist, that got inside of Trayvon's head, and his fear turned to "oh HELL no!" and they met up and confronted each other and Trayvon likely easily got the upper hand because his adrenaline had been pumping for several minutes already. I think he was doing exactly what GZ said, straddling him and trying to hold him down, to prevent what in TM's mind was most likely going to be an attempted sexual assault. TM was defending himself.

Then GZ very quickly realized he was in over his head, and he pulled his gun because he knew that was the only way to get the upper hand. I doubt he feared for his life. He was just humiliated that this young kid was so easily able to dominate him.

GZ instigated the whole affair, GZ was the aggressor and TM was defending himself.

GZ's cowardice resulted in TM's death.

That's how I see it, and I suspect the jury will see this too.

[Politicalboi]

1. I think TM didn't get a chance to even hit GZ

I think GZ's gun did the damage to his face from the kick back. TM was on his stomach, I doubt he was getting the upper hand on a man that outweighed him by almost a 100 pounds. I'm think GZ shot TM while he was straddling him.

[ksoze]

2. Wrong

Witness has TM on top wailing on GZ on bottom. TM found on stomach, due to being pushed off GZ after being shot. TM was much taller than him.

[Beaverhausen]

8. Other witnesses put GZ on top

[Pelican]

9. Now now.. Witness just claimed that he saw multiple MMA style punches...

... he couldn't claim that he saw all of them connect.

Maybe he was just flattening the ground around his head to make it more comfortable for him...

[frylock]

15. MMA style guy recanted months ago..

and testifies today that he saw no blows thrown:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014521647

[Pelican]

18. Got it.. repeated downward movement with his arm towards the guy's head...

Nothing punch like there....

[frylock]

20. you've made your decision

good day.

[Pelican]

21. I know it seems like that...

... frankly the prosecution just looked silly trying to jump back on that one.

Maybe they just hope that the jury will believe the person doing the punching had terrible hand eye coordination and never connected to the head of the person on the ground.

[Duer 157099]

33. Those sorts of downward arm movements would also be consistent

with trying to grab and hold someone's arms down to the ground, but who keeps getting their hands/arms free and trying to push you off.

Arm movements don't necessarily translate to punches being thrown.

[Adsos Letter]

54. Agreed. Another way of saying it might be

Another way of saying it might be that "downward arm movements" may be defensive, not offensive.

[frylock]

13. witness has recanted. saw NO blows being thrown..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014521647

[uponit7771]

26. Same witness recanted and had multiple versions of his testimoney. Zimmerman trained for MMA fights

[notadmblnd]

56. The witness has admitted he doesn't know what he saw

So keep telling your self what ever it is that you need to- to justify this boy's murder in your own mind.

There's not too many people buying what you're trying to sell here.

[Vattel]

69. This witness is a big help to the defense.

The witness saw Zimmerman being straddled by Martin and downward arm movements. You can fantasize all you want that Martin was on top screaming for help and fighting defensively, but what the witness says he saw is consistent with Zimmerman's story and so helps the defense show reasonable doubt.

[notadmblnd]

74. No,he wasn't on top sreaming for help

he was the one pinned down according to GZs own words. I'll grant that TM may have been on top for a moment before he was shot, but TM was screaming for help while Z held him down.

Z previously said he pushed T off after the shot and got on top of him and pushed his hands back.

I think GZ did this before TM wrestled his way on top and when TM got on top,GZ shot him.

Why? Because TM was not found on the ground with his hands and arms splayed out. He was found face down with his hands underneath his body.

GZ would have had to arrange TM body like that for his story to be plausible.

[Vattel]

78. The witness in question says that someone was yelling for help when Martin was on top of Zimmerman.

It was either Zimmerman or Martin. He assumed that it was Zimmerman because why would the guy with the upper hand in the struggle be screaming for help? Again, we can't know for sure, but his testimony is hugely helpful to the defense.

[Igel]

23. Perhaps.

Seems plausible. ("Plausible" not being a very useful word here.)

Can't tell squat from the tape.

On the other hand, I'm not sure anybody would emit that wail in the dark if he saw a gun pointed at him.

I can imagine that wail if somebody's having or had the back of his head hit the ground hard enough to leave a several-inch-long gash. Doesn't mean the gash was created by TM bashing GZ's head on the ground.

Also don't know how athletic GZ was. Or TM. I've seen dumpy guys with a lot of weight and little strength behind that weight. On the other hand, one of my karate instructors when I was a kid had a pot belly and if you wanted to hurt your fist you'd punch it.

I've seen scrawny, wiry guys with little weight that could use their weight and strength to good effect. And I've seen similarly build scrawny guys that had trouble opening a bag of Doritos with a pair of scissors.

Many of the views I've read here depend less on facts and more on what people want to be true.

[Voice for Peace]

34. several inch long gash?

there were two tiny cuts.
One 2cm, the other 0.5cm.
not deep enough to require any kind of suturing.
bandage would not even have been necessary, it was an option
for keeping the cuts clean, according to the doctor
who testified today.

[Duer 157099]

35. If by "several-inch-long gash" you mean

2cm long cut, according to the PA that examined him.

[anneboleyn]

53. Yes, the P.A. said one cut was 2 centimeters NOT 2 inches. The other was .5 centimeters and

neither were deep or needed stitches. Two centimeters is rather different than two inches.

[uponit7771]

25. +1

[Captain Stern]

30. Zimmerman outweighed Martin by 37 pounds on the night of the shooting (nt)

[Lurks Often]

41. Incorrect, police reports

indicate that Zimmerman was 5'8" and 200 lbs and that Martin was at 158 pounds and at LEAST 5'11" according the ME report.

It has been reported that both the initial measurement of body at the scene pre-rigor and family statements that Martin was 6'2", however I have not been able to find an official piece of evidence to prove the 6'2" part.

[Warpy]

3. I think all that is both irrelevant and unlikely

It's irrelevant because Zimmerman had no legal standing to stalk or confront anyone and Martin had every right to be where he was, walking back to his dad's house.

It's unlikely because shooting someone at close range produces a lot of blood and Zimmerman didn't have any visible spots on him.

I think Zimmerman was a coward. I think Martin probably demanded to know who the fuck he was when he got close enough. I doubt Zimmerman was close enough to exchange blows. I find it a little more likely, barring forensic evidence of fine blood spray on his clothing, that Zimmerman shot from a comfortable distance.

[Duer 157099]

5. That doesn't make sense to me

The shot is heard on the 911 call when cries for help are heard and when ear-witnesses heard physical confrontation in the form of scuffling on the grass. The powder marks on TM's clothing seem to indicate the clothing was a few inches away from his skin, which usually only happens by gravity. Which means TM had his back towards the sky with his shirt and sweatshirt falling off his skin and towards the ground. That seems to be the configuration when he was shot.

Totally agree that GZ had no legal standing to stalk or confront TM and TM had every right to be where he was and to respond as he did.

[Pelican]

10. Can you clarify this part?

It's irrelevant because Zimmerman had no legal standing to stalk or confront anyone

Are you saying that he had no legal right to talk to Martin?

[Warpy]

12. He wasn't a cop. Period.

He was a civilian who had appointed himself cop, judge, jury, and as it turned out, executioner. You know, a vigilante.

We rejected vigilantism a long time ago because that's where lynchings came from. They rarely managed to get the right person.

[Pelican]

14. Ok.. but what made it illegal for him to talk to or interact with Martin?

He had no right to initiate harm or even detain him but I believe you are confused about the rest of it.

[Warpy]

16. He had no real right to confront him, either,

which might have been the case had Martin been on Zimmerman's property.

The only right he had was to call 911. After that, his actions were that of a vigilante.

[Pelican]

19. Based... on... what... law?

What legally should have prevented him from interacting with another civilian on a public street?

That choice doesn't exclude calling 911 or a myriad of other things. You may disapprove ethically but legally he has the right to walk in the same direction as someone else on a public street or even engage them in conversation.

He has no right to detain or cause them harm. Martin would have been under no obligation to respond to him and if detained could have been justified in using force to get away.

All that said... Anyone can talk to anyone on a public road. Actions that came after that from both parties may or may not have been illegal.

[WinkyDink]

31. Have you ever had a stranger follow you? I HAVE, by car. I figured it out, pulled into a lot, and

waited, not pulling into a parking space, just waiting. Sure enough, the STRANGER pulled in, and...stopped. He was baffled as to what to do next, as he then knew I knew.

I got out of my car and CONFRONTED HIM about FOLLOWING ME, and told him if he didn't leave by the time I walked to the pay-phone, he was toast for the cops. He drove off.

I'm a female, BTW, and I CONFRONTED MY FOLLOWER.

So I completely understand Trayvon's position and attitude. It was NOT a mere matter of "a stranger has a right to speak to you."

[MADem]

27. He was also told, by the police dispatcher, to NOT confront TM. nt

[Adsos Letter]

37. Help me understand something about that characterization, because everyone is repeating it

I only heard the dispatcher say "Are you following him?" and then "We don't need you to do that."

Is that what everyone is referring to when they say Zimmerman was told not to confront him? I'm just confused about that.

I don't know how that fight originated, or who hit who when, but I don't believe Zimmerman had a right to use deadly force.

[MADem]

42. "We don't need you to do that," is a polite way--to my understanding and when listening

to the tone of the dispatcher--of saying "Stop fucking doing doing that. You aren't the police, sit your ass down and wait for them."

[Adsos Letter]

49. Thanks for clearing that up, MADem.

I agree with you that dispatch was trying to dissuade Zimmerman from following Trayvon, but it wasn't an order, as many are presenting it.

I just thought maybe there was some part of the call that has been publicized, that I had not heard.

Thanks

[MADem]

55. I took it as a directive. As I said, perhaps those dispatchers are going to

have to be less folksy and polite (I order you as a duly-authorized deputy of the Such-n-such PD to NOT DO THAT) in future.

I know that if a dispatcher told me I didn't need to do something, I would take it as "The dispatcher, a representative of the PD, told me not to do that." Not, "Golly gee, the dispatcher made a suggestion that I can disregard if I so desire."

Zimmerman is a tool...a murdering tool, if you ask me. He went looking for a confrontation. I wonder if he was on some sort of supplement that affected his testosterone levels? That degree of anger-hate is just so counterproductive, as he learned to his great dismay.

[Adsos Letter]

59. I'm trying to get some understanding of how dispatchers in that jurisdiction advise callers.

My understanding is that dispatchers have some restrictions on how they are to advise people (in that community, anyway). When the dispatcher told one of the early witnesses (the middle-aged blonde lady) something to the effect that she "might want to stay inside" or "might not want to go outside" for awhile, he didn't directly order her to do so. My understanding is that this is to avoid potential liability issues.

And I'm thinking about how that might factor into the exchange between Zimmerman and the SPD.

[MADem]

64. Could be, or it could be simply a "manner of speaking."

A cultural difference in the language, like tarof in Persian (that's where you're exceedingly polite, and say things you don't mean, like offering someone your watch if they admire it, hoping that the other person will refuse the offer--it's a very weird and wearying custom, to be blunt, but it is INGRAINED in the society).

"You might want to..."

"I don't think you oughta..."

These kinds of comments seem like they come out of the "I'ma fixing to...." and "Bless his heart" playbook. Who knows, though?

[Adsos Letter]

71. If post #63 is accurate, it seems to be a matter of authority.

Apparently Florida 911 dispatchers are civilian volunteers, unauthorized to give orders.

It will be interesting to see if this case changes that in some way, perhaps replacing volunteers with cops. I seriously doubt it.

EDIT to add: I didn't look up the reference the poster cited.

[lumpy]

60. The prime 'supplement' affecting Zimmerman's testosterone might have

been his rampant desire for glory and heroism.

[MADem]

62. Could be. He killed a young teen who should not have died that day. nt

[Carlpatrick]

40. Umm no.

Actually no he wasn't told that....listen to the 911 call. The suggestion from the civilian operator was "We don't need you to do that".
Not a legally binding directive.
Was good advise but not legally binding.

[MADem]

47. When I tell a child or a subordinate, "I don't need you to do that,"

it's not a suggestion. It's a directive, phrased politely.

The dispatcher, to my POV, and my ear, is telling the nitwit to step back in a polite, southern-culture way.

I'll bet in future those dispatchers won't be so folksy when they're dealing with neighborhood watch nimrods.

It doesn't matter if the directive is "legally binding." This tool with a gun, stalking teen boys going out for candy, had a LONG relationship with the PD. He knows what "We don't need you to do that" means. It means DON'T DO THAT.

If Zimmerman's defense is going to use that as an excuse, they really are stupid. If the idiot had followed the dispatcher's instructions, TM would still be alive.

[CatWoman]

48. Why wasn't it "legally binding"

Oh Great Gazoo?

[Carlpatrick]

63. Read Florida Law...

I have a place in Avon Park..Florida.
“911 public safety telecommunicator[s]” are NOT LEO.
They are civilians hired by the Department. They can strongly suggest.


Title XXIX Chapter 401..you can look it up don't need to take my word for it.
I've got no dog in this hunt.

[CatWoman]

75. I wasn't talking to you

[Carlpatrick]

79. Yeah you were...

you quoted me...put it ".."s

Star Member CatWoman (68,092 posts)
48. Why wasn't it "legally binding".

No one else said it to be quoted in this subpost.

[CatWoman]

77. you joined DU just so you could defend that sorry sack of shit?

[anneboleyn]

58. Not illegal. Just very stupid for a man with a LOADED GUN to CONFRONT a teenager

whom he does not know because (according to the statements Zimmerman made during the 911 call) the man is convinced that the teenager is up to something.

[Voice for Peace]

36. apparently it was point-blank, if that's the right term.. there were powder burns on the clothing

I believe according to the prosecutor's opening statement,
the gun was held/fired directly against his body.

[Lurks Often]

45. The ME classified it as intermediate distance

a contact wound, the muzzle against the skin, would resulted in a different wound as the muzzle gasses would have entered the body. Based on the ME report, I would think that the muzzle was within 6" of Martin, but not in direct contact with the skin.

[Voice for Peace]

61. ok, maybe I misunderstood

for the first time, EVER.. of course

[Lurks Often]

80. I had to research what the ME considered "intermediate" distance

and it wasn't what I thought it would be.

[Voice for Peace]

82. I just read (somewhere) one person postulating that

because of the location of the hole in the shirt vs
the hole in Trayvon's chest, it seemed his shirt
was being pulled down and away from his body,
thus the powder on the shirt but the distance
from the skin. This person suggested Zimmerman
had trayvon's shirt in one hand and the gun in
the other.

[Lurks Often]

83. It would also support Zimmerman's story that Martin was on top of him

and that the weight of the sweatshirt, wet or dry and if loose fitting enough, would result in the pattern of evidence.

[Voice for Peace]

84. it makes sense to me that

Martin was on top at least at some point and was
shot from that position; then Z removed himself,
and Martin fell forward hands to heart. This in
no way supports Zimmerman's claim of self-defense,
my opinion. I don't believe he ever thought his
life was in danger.

[Lurks Often]

85. Let's hope neither of us ever finds ourselves in such a position

because in the end, that's the only way to know for sure what they both were thinking.

[Pathwalker]

4. In a conrontation between one armed person, and one unarmed person,

wouldn't common sense say that the UNarmed person would be the one screaming for help? Zimmerman had all the (lethal) help he needed.


0

[Duer 157099]

6. I suspect that at the time of the screaming, the gun was not evident

GZ probably had his hands otherwise engaged, probably being held by TM who feared what GZ was up to.

[CatWoman]

51. and I'm of the opinion that the gun was drawn AND cocked the entire time

[Hell Hath No Fury]

7. Honestly, that's what I have been thinking as well.

I think Zimmerman confronted Trayvon, Trayvon (rightly) wasn't having any of it, and Zimmerman freaked the fuck out like the coward he is and basically shit his pants when things got real. "Black Panic" -- a close relative of "Gay Panic".

Stupid, bigoted, and angry are no way to go through life, son.

[janlyn]

11. GZ's injuries are eerily

similar to wounds my brother sustained when we were teens. My brother came at me at a run and tackled me from the side. Because he was heavier he ended up on bottom with a concussion from hitting the back of his head on the concrete and a broken nose from the back of my head hitting his face.

When I saw pics of GZ's wounds I immediately thought of that scenario.

[Voice for Peace]

38. that's also a feasible scenario in this case

as Rachel testified Zimmerman came up behind
Trayvon, and unexpectedly, according to what he
said to her on the phone.

and especially because there was no evidence
on Trayvon's hands, no indication whatsoever
that he'd hit or punched anybody. Or grabbed
anybody.

[slor]

17. That is clearly a young man scream...

And no I am not a voice expert, but it reminded me of how I sounded as a teen.

[Duer 157099]

22. GZ does not have a deep voice

I could imagine it being either one in terms of the sound. But logistically, I think it was GZ making the sound.

[MADem]

50. I don't think most people have a particularly deep voice when they are screaming in terror. nt

[CatWoman]

52. you can't distinguish between a young voice yelling over that of an older voice?

and why did everything go silent once the weapon was fired?

[Just Saying]

66. One of the witnesses that testified agrees with you

She said it was a boy's voice. Also, there is a recording of Trayvon's voice n the Internet and I think it sounds more like him.

But I'm also not a voice expert.

If someone followed me in the dark and then tried to stop me or physically restrain me, I'm sure I'd scream and fight. Now if he had a gun and I didn't know his intentions but knew he wasn't a cop, yeah I'd scream then too.

[1StrongBlackMan]

24. I disagree for two reasons …

First, based on having heard the 911 recorder during Lauer’s testimony, the yells for help stopped with the shot. Had it been Z, he would have continued yelling for help in that his situation hadn’t changed … he was still in the conflict.

Secondly, and I know this is anecdotal; but having listened to the recording, I can say, “Black recognizes Black.” I know that I (and most Black folks that I have queried) am able to discern a Black/non-Black distinction in just about any unseen voice.

But academically, this has phenomena has been tested and is supported. Back in the late 1990s/early 2000s, a study came out in the Fair Housing field, where landlords would deny the availability of housing as a result of the screening of applicants via telephone calls. I recall a study that indicated that 90+% of African-Americans (and 80+% of non-Blacks) can recognize a Black/non-Black identity of an unseen voice (this isn’t a link to the study, but my quick scan indicates the link speaks to the study: http://www.stanford.edu/~jbaugh/Black%20Linguistics.pdf)

[uponit7771]

28. ****ZIMMERMAN CLAIMED IN VIDEO TM COVERED HIS MOUTH****

[Duer 157099]

29. Why? Because he was screaming?

Or is GZ claiming TM was trying to suffocate him?

[Recursion]

32. It's a common thing when you're grappling with somebody

Try to cover his mouth so he can't bite.

[Captain Stern]

39. My conjecture

It's fact that Martin and Zimmerman came into contact with each other and had a physical altercation. Here are some ways (not evidence based) that I think that could have come about:

1. Zimmerman's story - He was physically attacked by Martin and ended up on the ground with Martin on top of him. He yelled for help while he was being beaten, and then pulled his gun and shot Martin.

2. Martin had been hiding from Zimmerman (who he knew was following him). When Martin emerged from hiding, he unexpectedly came across Zimmerman. Zimmerman attempted to physically restrain him, and Martin fought back and got the best of Zimmerman. Either Martin or Zimmerman could have been the one yelling for help.

3. Martin had been hiding from Zimmerman (who he knew was following him). When Martin emerged from hiding, he unexpectedly. came across Zimmerman, and Zimmerman already had his gun drawn. Martin (fearing for his life, since the man that was following him had his gun drawn) attacked Zimmerman. Martin knocked Zimmerman down, straddled him, and was fighting him for control of the gun...all the while yelling for help.

[Duer 157099]

44. I cannot dispute any of those 3 scenarios

All of them are plausible to me

[lumpy]

68. An eye witness has testified that she saw a figure on the ground straddled by

another person and after the gunshot the person straddling the innert person on the ground got up and walked around back and forth holding his head. Since the person on the ground failed to arise one would have to assume it was the victim of the shooting. How the victim came to be on the ground I have yet to determine since the only one heard from on concerning the scenario, might be the perpetrator of the shooting and I have no info about his testimony regarding that.

[tech3149]

43. I think the operative word is that you "believe"

GZ had a gun, he had a vehicle, he could have escaped any threat at any time. The 911 call showed that he did not follow the advice of those that had authority and chased down the person he "suspected" of wrong doing.
Clue for you, base your argument on evidence that can be substantiated not inference or interpretation based on your predilection.

I don't really care what your or any others response is. I'd just like you and others to really think about your posts and consider the logic and factual evidence that they are based on.

[Duer 157099]

46. I will base my opinions on whatever I choose, thank you

If you think I'm defending GZ in any way, you clearly haven't been reading my posts.

[tech3149]

57. I don't think your defending GZ

but if you make an argument I think it carries more weight if it is based on something based on fact.

[DeltaLitProf]

70. For a lot of us that just doesn't cut it

When decades and decades of a defendant's life are on the line, when a child is dead, it seems very flippant to base one's decision as a juror on what you yourself believe happened based on how much you dislike George Zimmerman himself or, conversely, on how much you may feel Zimmerman is getting a bum rap.

A lot of us would be unable to send a man we dislike to prison based simply on a dislike. We'd need some pretty clear evidence. In fact, a lot of us would feel guilty all our lives for doing such a thing. If, on the other hand, we acquitted Zimmerman based on a "feeling," a lot of us would regret doing that as well.

You, on the other hand, have communicated to us that you are not like this.

And we understand that.

[Duer 157099]

73. You know I'm not a juror on this case, right?

I've been a juror on actual cases, so I know the difference between speculating on a message board and performing my civic duty as a juror. Fortunately, I don't conduct my daily life as if everything I have to think about or opine about must be done as if I'm a juror on a trial.

[Vattel]

65. Wild speculation is fun, but I hope the jury avoids it.

[ThePhilosopher04]

67. I disagree, but ...

even stipulating what you say is true, Zimmerman is still guilty of at least 2nd degree murder. Whether he got the living shit beat out of him is irrelevant. He had a gun, he knew he had a gun, he followed Martin, confronted him and shot him dead. End of story.

[DeltaLitProf]

72. Rather than basing its decision on a "feeling"

. . . or an "impression" of what happened, I'd hope the jury actually does its job and considers what the evidence is for or against what both sides contend.

"Feelings" get blacks and poor people convicted of things they didn't do and put in Texas electric chairs.

Please challenge yourself to make decisions in life based on more than just what you "sense" happened. There is no such thing as a psychic or telepath. All we have is evidence.

[Auntie Bush]

76. I have two comments.

One witness said it was dark and needed a flashlight. The witness today said the guy on the bottom had a light or red shirt. I call BS! You can't see color in the dark. At night you can only see shades of gray and black. Red at night would appear black or very dark gray.

Another thing...If TM were pounding Z's head on the concrete sidewalk...it would have much more damage. He only had two TINY cuts which bled profusely like heads injuries do. How do you explain TM had no marks on his fists if he was pummeling TM so hard he feared for his life? If he hit Zim so hard to break his nose he'd have some marks and blood on his hands/knuckles...he didn't. I think that witness today was racially biased.

[spanone]

81. it really doesn't matter what anyone 'believes'