Zimmerman bit off more than he could chew.

[madashelltoo]

"Don't mess around and bite off more than you can chew." My parents used to say that all the time and it had nothing to do with an actual meal. They meant for us not to pick fights we knew we could not win.

In the case of Zimmerman, the gun on his hip made him feel more powerful than he actually was. If he had not had the gun, he would simply have taken an earned ass whipping, gone home and tended to his wounds and his ego. People keep losing sight of the fact that Trayvon was not guilty of doing anything wrong, and I don't care which scenario you choose (Zimmerman chasing and finally running up on him, or Trayvon got tired of being hunted and turned the table), Zimmerman initiated the situation thinking he would be crowned the neighborhood hero again. Well, he got crowned and he did not like the fit. Zimmerman did not decide to fight back with the same amount of aggression he met, he pulled his weapon. And, for the length of time of those screams he pointed it at Trayvon and let him know he was going to die. That young man pleaded for help, not from a fist fight, but rather a gun pointed at him. The reason there was no blood on Trayvon was because it was not there during the struggle. The blood appeared after Zimmerman pulled the trigger and the gun kicked back and hit him in the face. This is obvious because Trayvon was leaning forward and his clothes were not pressed against his body when the shot was fired, hence, the gun was too close to Zimmerman's face when he pulled the trigger.

No, Travon did not stand up and say, "You got me," then fall. His hands clinched at his chest and he fell forward. Zimmerman's scuffling out from under him did not disturb his hands. No, Zimmerman did not spread Trayvon's arms out as he said. Zimmerman simply rolled up on Trayvon and expected the young, black kid to be frightened and submit to his crap. Zimmerman would have created a scenario for the police that would have Trayvon taken into custody, voila, Zimm's the man.

Zimmerman bit off more than he could chew, a child is dead, and Zimmerman is guilty.

[DrDan]

1. the question, of course, is guilty of what

not sure 2nd degree murder has been yet proven

I have my doubts

[mtpscwriter]

13. Yeah, it sure looks more like manslaughter.

I mean from having watched the trial SO FAR. There's still lots of evidence to come.

It's amazing, though, how many pro-prosecution and pro-defense people have already made up their minds. They're concocting all kinds of wildly speculative theories based on things that have not even come into evidence yet. I guess they get a thrill out of amusing themselves. Other than that, there's really no reason to willingly delude oneself; it'll just make it more likely that they'll be disappointed because the verdict won't fit their preconceived agenda.

[DrDan]

16. it will be easy for them to blame the jury based on "that's Florida for you"

[NoOneMan]

27. It thought manslaughter is like if a gun in your pocket negligently goes off and kills someone

(maybe due to something stupid you were doing)

Not when you chase down an "asshole" with a firearm--after being told not to by 911--and instigate a confrontation that results in a shooting death (part of such instigation involves actually chasing such a person down)

[DrDan]

34. there are a couple of forms of manslaughter - voluntary and involuntary

your "pocket" scenario is an example of the latter

voluntary manslaughter is killing someone one did not anticipate killing. Second Degree Murder is non-premeditated, but was as a result of an act where death was a possibility.

I think the prosecutors may have overreached.

(my pov as a non-lawyer)

[NoOneMan]

35. Picking a fight while armed with a gun seems like an act with death being a possibility

Afterall, thats sort of what happened.

[DrDan]

36. that's why its important to determine who jumped who

[NoOneMan]

37. I consider chasing down an "asshole" while armed with a gun at night as "picking a fight"

Zimmerman wasn't innocently looking for directions to the supermarket. He perceived that he was chasing down a perp. That is documented.

If Zimmerman didn't throw the first punch in the fight he picked, Im not sure thats relevant entirely. He picked and forced the fight.

[DrDan]

42. well it's a good thing this is in the hands of a jury that must sit through all of the testimony

[rustydog]

62. 1st degree murder. But for Zimmie-fucks stalking of a kid walking

through fuck-nuts neighborhood, Trayvon Martin would be alive today.

Zimmie-fuck ignored the 911 operators instruction not to follow the innocent teenager who was simply walking home but happened to be of NEGRO descent.

But for Zimmie-Fucks tiny wanky, MMA training, carrying a semi-automatic pistol as a substitute for his tiny wanky, Trayvon would be alive today.

But for that Gutless cowards actions stalking and attacking an unarmed American citizen guilty of being black while walking home with candy for his brother, Trayvon Martin would be alive as I type this...Murder, first degree.

[DrDan]

63. won't disagree with 99% of your post - but what charges can be proven n a court of law

1st degree? nope
2nd degree? not going well
manslaughter - well . . .


we have evolved from lynch mobs decades ago . . . pretty much

[hedgehog]

2. "The blood appeared after Zimmerman pulled the trigger and the gun kicked back and

hit him in the face."

This is the first time I've seen that speculation, and it makes absolute sense to me.

Was Zimmerman wearing glasses or sunglasses at the time? I recall someone referring to this, but I may be remembering incorrectly. IF he was wearing glasses, the marks on the bridge of his nose would match getting slapped in the face.

[nyquil_man]

5. Or hit with a can inside a bag.

I've always figured that's how he got the nose injury.

[samsingh]

3. yes

[kentuck]

4. Yep. If he didn't have his gun...

he would not have been so brave.

[uponit7771]

6. There's a whole thread on another site theorizing the same thing, NO DNA on TM is going to be

...the clinching evidence

[noiretextatique]

48. i agree...that fact totally proves

zimmerman is lying.

[yardwork]

7. Powerful

Bottom line is that an adult man shot and killed an unarmed kid who was not doing anything illegal.

How people can defend Zimmerman is beyond me. I think it's because some people think that they have a right to kill any black male who scares them.

[DrDan]

8. funny how anyone who prefers to base their opinion on ALL of the evidence

is so quickly labeled a racist

[Scootaloo]

12. Maybe if they weren't so eager to give a guilty verdict to the victim of the killing...

Despite the fact he's not (and can't be) the one on trial

[DrDan]

19. well . . . have not read where anyone is claiming TM is guilty

not doubting you - just have not read it myself.

I have read many posts where evidence is analyzed, witnesses scrutinized, and conclusions delayed until all evidence/testimony is complete - as should be.

[yardwork]

66. The entire defense of Zimmerman depends on convicting Martin of assault - even though he's dead.

[DrDan]

73. it is about raising doubt as to Z being the aggressor

and I believe they are doing so

not defending Z's actions, but I do feel (watching the testimony) that every witness has aided the defense in some way

and this is still the state's case

I think 2d murder is a stretch at this point

[noiretextatique]

47. because...zimmerman apologists routinely ignore the evidence

ergo, it is doesn't take much of a stretch to conclude that their opinions are based on something other than the evidence. simple.

[DrDan]

49. I am seeing folks who have decided guilt- and those who are waiting for all evidence to be presented

have not seen "Zimmerman apologists"

perhaps there are some - I have not seen them

[noiretextatique]

50. yes...there are some

to me, pretending to not have an opinion on this case is sort of like being an "undecided voter" in the 2008 election. not that it matters one bit, because the jury will ulitmately decide. same with the OJ case...lots of people had opinions about his guilt before the trial even started.

[DrDan]

51. and that's fair as long as one reconsiders as evidence is presented

[Pelican]

11. Except for possibly punching him in the head...

[Myrina]

15. So a (supposed) punch in the head deserves a bullet in return?

Really?

[Pelican]

20. I was referring to the part where he stated that Martin did nothing illegal....

There absolutely is a valid self defense case to be made if one is pinned on the ground getting punched in the head or having their head smashed into the ground.

It is reasonable to think that a person, in that situation, might have a reasonable fear for their life.

[yardwork]

40. Martin had a right to self defense.

Martin was the one being chased by a man with a gun. Are you saying that Martin had no right to defend himself?

[Pelican]

61. I think that it would be difficult...

... to build a case for "self defense" based on someone walking towards you. Armed or not doesn't come into it unless you want to think that the weapon was being brandished or used as a threat to detain him.

[yardwork]

65. Nonsense.

[Pelican]

68. And?

How about some reasoning instead of just dismissal because you find it inconvenient...?

[yardwork]

69. Nonsense doesn't require detailed response.

[Pelican]

71. You should send that to the next Presidential campaign for the 2016 debates....

I'm sure they would be very interested to know that you can just declare victory in a conversation, especially one with specific rules, such as law, by merely stating "nonsense."

That's amazing!

Double points because up until this point someone might have just assumed that you don't have an actual response or know what you are talking about and thus are trying to avoid the topic because it makes you itchy.

Good thing that was cleared up! Phew... Well played sir... Bravo...

[brush]

41. Forget the head smashed into the ground . . .

. . . actually sidewalk according to ol' zimmy. It came out that there was no blood on the sidewalk. There was blood, however, on zimmy's gun. And as it turns out, it was his own blood. Sounds like the poster who said the gun kicked back and hit zimmy in the face is on to something.

IMHO the blood on the back of zimmy's head also came from the gun, him hitting the back of his head with his own gun to back up his story of getting his head bashed on the sidewalk.

Seems he forgot to drip some of his blood unto the sidewalk though. It's rough trying to think of every little thing when you're trying to cover your ass. The stress, you know.

[yardwork]

67. Has evidence been added to the record that Zimmerman's own blood was on his gun?

That would be very damning to Zimmerman. It would definitely imply that the minor injuries to Zimmerman's face were due to his own gun kicking back and hitting him in the face when he shot Martin.

I would not be surprised if the scalp injuries were self-inflicted, but even if they were caused by Martin, I don't see how that gave Zimmerman the right to shoot an unarmed person dead after Zimmerman initiated the confrontation by stalking an unarmed teen through his own neighborhood while armed with a gun.

[noiretextatique]

46. IF is the operative word, and so far, zimmerman's claims

have NOT been substantiated by ANY of the witnesses.

[noiretextatique]

55. if there was a shred of truth to his claim

i'd expect some of the eyewitnesses to substantiate those claims, the the EMTs, unless you think they are biased towards the prosecution.

[noiretextatique]

59. if his claim was TRUE

then even some of the prosecution witnesses should confirm at least part of his story. so far...nadda. how is the hell is the defense going to call to dispute the eye witness claims? the EMTS should have been able to corroborate his claims about his severe injuries.

[hack89]

9. Are you saying that Trayvon was kicking Zimmerman's ass?

that he was on top and whaling away at him?

[ksoze]

10. That is what closest witness said this morning

[mtpscwriter]

21. Yep. No way the prosecution could avoid calling Jonathan Good

to the stand, but they had to.

And he wasn't good for them at all.

[frylock]

23. Witness Makes Key Admission That He Never Saw Trayvon Martin Throw A Punch At Zimmerman

On day five of George Zimmerman’s trial for the death of Trayvon Martin, a key witness who previously claimed to have seen Martin “throwing down blows” admitted he never saw an actual punch thrown. This admission from John Good could undermine Zimmerman’s claim he shot 17-year-old Martin in reasonable self-defense.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014521647

[Myrina]

14. Or maybe trying to hold him down til help could get there ...

[hack89]

18. The eyewitness said that it was Zimmerman yelling for help

so I doubt it was just holding him down.

[noiretextatique]

45. bullshit

two witnesses said they thought is was martin crying for help. in your zeal to support a murderer, you continue to make completely false statements.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

58. Actually -

he said he thought it was Zimmerman who was yelling for help but admitted that he could be wrong. Defense kept trying to pin him to make many absolute statements and he would not.

[madashelltoo]

22. No, I'm not.

I am saying Zimmerman thought he could make his version of a citizen's arrest of a person who was minding his own business. Following a person who is minding their business will stimulate fight or flight. Obviously, Trayvon did a little of both. It still does not rise to being murdered.

Another thing about this pummeling people are trying use as an excuse for Zimmerman's fear. Any woman who has ever been hit in the face by a man's fist knows those little bruises on Zimmerman were not caused by intentional face punching. I repeat, he bit off more than he could chew.

[Iggo]

17. There's a lot in life he couldn't chew, and he knew it.

That's why that gun-fucker was carrying a gun in the first place. Scared of life, man. Scared of life.

[HiddenAgenda63]

28. Is this kind of thing common in CCW states?

My sister-in-law moved to Fla. several years ago. One of the first things she did after moving down there was get a license and a 9mm. I suspect that I mightr do likewise, out of fear and coming from a rural Canadian background...US cities are scary places, to me.

[Hoyt]

38. Um, yahoos with guns are a concern of mine.

[Iggo]

60. Word.

[MichiganVote]

24. The gun on his hip killed a 17 year old. People don't carry guns to look weak.

He bit off more than he could chew when he bought the firearm. He killed the kid when he used it.

[beevul]

25. i'm pretty sure it was a concealed carry weapon...

I'm pretty sure it was a concealed carry weapon, not an openly carried one.

Florida, to my knowledge, does not allow open carry of firearms.

Which opens another can of worms, if in fact Martin was on top of Zimmerman.

If I were carrying concealed (I don't carry a gun at all fwiw) and was on the ground on my back and someone were on top of me in a struggle, I'd definitely be concerned with whether or not the other person would be able to gain control of that firearm.

[MichiganVote]

52. If I were a juror, this would be a critical detail to me.

If the 17 year old knew/saw that Zimmerman had the gun, what then? What is the kid's reaction? Person is following, surely not happy the kid is there as he questions the youth. Did Z ask his questions with the gun in sight or not?

[Cleita]

26. He didn't do what he was expected to because he was getting off on playing

pretend cop. If he had waited for the police, after he reported the boy like he was told to, this wouldn't have happened. It's not the first time a wannabe cop did something criminal like this. I worked with a security guard at a department store, who was such a dick, he finally got fired after a customer he assaulted for supposed shop lifting turned out to be a lawyer who sued the store.

[Gin]

29. If Zimmerman was on the bottom...and he shot Trayvon in the heart...why no blood splatter

From the wound on Zimmerman?

Or do I watch too much csi?

[louis-t]

32. Something just occurred to me....

If it was that dark out that no one could identify who was who, how could Martin have "seen" and "grabbed at" the gun Zim was carrying?

[PearliePoo2]

30. Interesting scenario!

"The blood appeared after Zimmerman pulled the trigger and the gun kicked back and hit him in the face."
THAT would explain why there wasn't any DNA of Zimmerman's on Trayvon's body. If Trayvon had done the face punching, there would be blood on him and bruises on his fists. There was none.
Zimmerman's facial cuts and swollen nose could EASILY be from the pistol kickback. WOW

[Saphire]

33. it fits my theory, I think Z already had his gun out

and T was on top trying to pin down Zs hand/gun all the while screaming for help.

[PearliePoo2]

43. That's reasonable to me too! nt.

[TeeYiYi]

54. That's what he originally told the cops...

”Zimmerman told authorities that during their fight, Trayvon tried to cover Zimmerman's mouth with his hand and tried to pull the handgun away from him.”

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-15/news/os-trayvon-martin-gun-20120513_1_gun-shop-owner-gun-owners-kel-tec

Also, if you google the Kel-Tec 9 mm PF-9, the internet is full of complaints that it 'kicks like a mule.' Lots of people hate it because of its severe recoil.

I agree with the OP's scenario.

TYY

[adric mutelovic]

31. Thanks for the verdict

We are all adjourned.

[WinkyDink]

39. Oh, wah, wah, wah. Maybe we should all have empty heads?

[noiretextatique]

56. yet another coincidence

yet another low post count zimmerman fan

[noiretextatique]

44. that makes sense: he fell forward after being shot

sure makes more sense than zimmerman's discredited claims.

[Fla_Democrat]

64. Detective Greenley, I loved you in Boondock Saints.

You rock.

The blood appeared after Zimmerman pulled the trigger and the gun kicked back and hit him in the face. This is obvious because Trayvon was leaning forward and his clothes were not pressed against his body when the shot was fired, hence, the gun was too close to Zimmerman's face when he pulled the trigger.

[polly7]

70. Who the hell would say "You got me"!

That's always bothered me, a really bad movie line. I don't believe a word Zimmerman says. He's a lying child murderer, imo.

[walkerbait41]

72. That`s just the way we see it

Zimmerman is guilty