Are (were) George Carlin and Louis CK racists?

[FrodosPet]

They not only used the N word in their acts, they've claimed there is nothing wrong with using it in certain circumstances.

So are we ready to shut them down, lock them out, even boycott their body of work?

Well, maybe Louis CK. He does seem to plagiarize Carlin a lot. But I can't imagine a lot of people in this forum trashing Carlin because of the context he used it in (which was an explanation that there are no bad words, just bad meanings).

Obviously they were using it in a different way than Paula Deen did. It was part of social commentary comedy. And Paula's problems are more than a careless use of it. But nevertheless, they did use it. So the question becomes - what is the dividing line? Is it when used at all, or only in hostility? Does it mean we have to turn against a beloved edgy comedian who was historically a thorn in the side of conservatives?

I will not link to the bits on YouTube, but they are out there for the curious who have never heard them. And please don't lock the thread. I think this is a conversation that needs to be had (even if it is uncomfortable).

[HERVEPA]

1. Clearly not. silly question.

[FrodosPet]

14. I really don't think it was

I think developing and distributing a baseline of acceptable speech is necessary. Obviously, if we care about the First Amendment, racial, ethnic, sexist, and homophobic slurs cannot be legally proscribed. But since words have consequences, there should be clear lines developed and clear consequences defined.

[quinnox]

2. if you ask me, comedians can use any language they want

in service to comedy. Basically, I am saying a comedian should say anything they want if they think it will get a laugh. I don't think political correctness or any such standards should apply at all to comedians when they are doing their acts.

[alp227]

25. Even rape jokes?

wow is DU getting more right wing by the day? read this thread of mine & reconsider

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022133836

[pokerfan]

30. Carlin believed you could joke about anything.

Was he right? George Carlin's rape joke from Parental Advisory-Explicit Lyrics (1990)....

Lots of groups in this country want to tell you how to talk.
Tell you what you can't talk about. Well, sometimes they'll say, well you can talk about something but you can't joke about it.
Say you can't joke about something because it's not funny. Comedians run into that shit all the time.
Like rape. They'll say, "you can't joke about rape. Rape's not funny."
I say, "fuck you, I think it's hilarious. How do you like that?"
I can prove to you that rape is funny. Picture Porky Pig raping Elmer Fudd.
See, hey why do you think they call him "Porky," eh? I know what you're going to say.
"Elmer was asking for it. Elmer was coming on to Porky.
Porky couldn't help himself, he got a hard- on, he got horney, he lost control, he went out of his mind."
A lot of men talk like that. A lot of men think that way. They think it's the woman's fault.
They like to blame the rape on the woman. Say, "she had it coming, she was wearing a short skirt."
These guys think women ought to go to prison for being cock teasers. Don't seem fair to me.
Don't seem right, but you can joke about it. I believe you can joke about anything.
It all depends on how you construct the joke. What the exaggeration is. What the exaggeration is.
Because every joke needs one exaggeration. Every joke needs one thing to be way out of proportion.

[thelordofhell]

3. Was Paula Deen a comedian?

[FrodosPet]

12. She IS in show business

So perhaps not directly, but one could argue there are similarities.

But that's not the point I am trying to make. I am trying to explore what are the forgivable, if not necessarily acceptable uses of the word by whites. As well as starting a discussion about when it is to the point of making one irredeemable and worthy of social and economic destruction.

[Generic Brad]

18. She was a joke, not a comedian

There is a difference.

[Journeyman]

4. And Carlin's work (at least in this aspect) was derivative of Lenny Bruce. . .

something Carlin freely admitted.

Maybe it's better to see this as Bruce used to attest, as neither humor nor degradation, but simply a reflection of what is, a part of a social commentator's night club act, meant to enlighten (and possibly amuse) but not to be perceived as anything more.

[FrodosPet]

11. True that

No matter how hard a comedian might try to be completely original, ultimately, you are a product of your past experiences. So, if you are going to be a comedian on the edge, it will lead back to Lenny Bruce through Carlin and Pryor.

[JaneyVee]

5. NO.

[Cerridwen]

6. You used the word "context" in your post.

Perhaps you should understand that word before a) posting an OP mixing contexts (false equivalencies) and b) before using the word "context" which you don't appear to understand.

[FrodosPet]

17. I used context because Carlin used it in the bit I am referring to

I wasn't going to post this at first, because I know people are going to misunderstand my motivation. But if I am going to explain myself, I guess I need to bring the bit out front and center.

Warning: NSFW and definitely not safe for the easily offended

[thelordofhell]

22. Umm, the bit proves the difference between Carlin & Deen

Straight from the video..........

"It's the racist asshole who's using it that you oughta be concerned about"

[FrodosPet]

24. It is easy to find racists worse than Deen almost everywhere

I cannot see her being as supportive of President Obama as she was if she was the world's worst racist.

But not getting rid of Bubba and some other managers WAS a serious mistake. Definitely some major negligence there.

[davidpdx]

7. Carlin I'm not very familiar with, but I can say without a doubt no for Louie CK

I have watched three seasons of his shows and while he says some outlandish things (bags of dicks has to be up there) I don't think he's racists or homophobic (some might claim the later because he does talk about gay people and in fact in the opening episodes in season one there was an entire scene where he was playing poker and talking about it). I'm almost sure in one of the episodes there are some jokes with the N word, but given how many episodes there are I don't have time to find it.

For anyone who is curious season 4 of his show will be next spring on Fx.

[FrodosPet]

10. I was refering to his stand up act

I've only seen one episode of his sitcom.

[kwassa]

15. In his sitcom, his ex-wife is black.

Their kids are white, and there was no explanation of any kind.

The episode I saw.

[davidpdx]

20. Good point

I believe those are his children, not actors. I'm not sure about the ex-wife.

[davidpdx]

21. I've seen a few clips of his standup act

Its not that different from the show, although I'd guess he has a lot more leeway in terms of what he says on the stage then on TV.

[FrodosPet]

9. An excellent point!

Racial ignorance was the main theme of the movie. The people of Rockridge were a group of ignorant racists. Yet still the character of Sheriff Bart helped them save their town, despite their bigotry.

But nowadays, even if you repent, there is no redemption, no forgiveness. I'm not sure that this is a good precedent to set.

[FSogol]

28. "But nowadays, even if you repent, there is no redemption, no forgiveness"

Sometimes forgiveness takes time, some work, and some contrition. Deen will need some personal growth, not denials or strange pseudo-apologies. She's a restauranteur, go back to her roots (well some more 21st century roots anyway) and get her house back in order. One day she will be forgiven, but it is disingenuous to expect it immediately.

[Honeycombe8]

13. Using it in a comedy routine is totally different than referring to a PERSON that way....

in her case, she's being sued for workplace hostile environment because of racist remarks, or something like that.

But all the facts aren't out yet, so we'll see. She'll be fine. She's a mega milllionaire.

[kwassa]

16. Paula Deen is a racist for other reasons aside from the N-word use itself.

She is an ignorant product of her time and place. Read the civil action against her.

http://www.atlawblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Jackson-v.-Deen-et-al.-Complaint.pdf

[FrodosPet]

19. This makes more sense

Bubba Hiers is a piece of shit, if these allegations are true. And Paula Deen was pretty neglectful keeping him employed.

[cherokeeprogressive]

23. Juxtapose Paula Deen with Robert Byrd.

Paula Deen admitted in court that she used the word "nigger" (audible gasp) sometime in the fairly distant past. She could have lied, but she didn't. Now she's fucked, and people here and everywhere else are tickled pink and cheering her current situation. Who really cares if she's a Democrat and an Obama supporter. It's understandable though; she's a white woman with a southern accent.

http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/pictures/celebrities-political-affiliations-20122210/25628

Robert Byrd? All he did was start his own personal chapter of the Ku Klux Klan, becoming its recruiter and Grand Poobah. He sent a letter to a United States Senator (a fellow Democrat, segregationist, and Klan member) stating:

I shall never fight in the armed forces with a negro by my side ... Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds (emphasis mine).

Yeah, I'm betting Ol' Bob used the word "nigger" hundreds, if not thousands, maybe even tens of thousands of times. As Grand Poobah, I wouldn't bet against his involvement in some pretty mean and nasty stuff. What's Robert Byrd's scorecard say though? He and his wife have more shit named after them in West Virginia than one can shake a stick at, and he is widely regarded as a Democratic Party hero.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_places_named_after_Robert_Byrd

It's a strange land we live in...

[gollygee]

26. I'm always suspicious when anyone uses the word "racist" as a noun

People are not "racists." They might be racist to some extent or another. But person A using the N word does not make it OK for Paula Dean to use it, and context is important.

[mattclearing]

27. If Chris Rock is willing to work with Louis, that's good enough for me.

Racism is like the obscenity test...you know it when you see it.

[Trajan]

29. We are tired of your Deen apologia

Why don't you shut off your computer and go for a very very long walk ....

[Mojo Electro]

31. Context.

Context, context, context.

[Shankapotomus]

32. This is why I have been saying

a professional comedic context is the exception and should be afforded a little more flexibility and benefit of doubt. It's what a comedian says outside a comedic context that counts just like everyone else.