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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe Errors of Edward Snowden and His Global Hypocrisy Tour - Vanity Fair
http://www.vanityfair.com/online/eichenwald/2013/06/errors-edward-snowden-global-hypocrisy-tour** see link for much more
Updated to actual title
-- snip
Take the actions involving Tsinghua University. There are many reasons the N.S.A. would be interested in communications and computer activities at this Beijing-based school. For example, beginning in the past decade or so, university programs on arms control have played an important role in the Chinese governments efforts to administer export controls on sensitive items. (For those wishing to know more, this is well detailed in a book published by the Rand Corporation called Chasing the Dragon: Assessing Chinas System of Export Controls for WMD-Related Goods and Technologies.) Now, perhaps the most prominent university program in China on arms control is atyou guessed itTsinghua University. So, do you think there might be a reason why the N.S.A. would want to know about any communications on arms control that might take place between the Chinese government and Tsinghua?
The importance of China in global arms-control issues is hard to understate, even in American negotiations with Russia over proposals on nuclear-arms reduction. As Richard Weitz, a senior fellow and director of the Center for Political-Military Affairs at Hudson Institute, wrote last year:
Chinas continued absence from strategic nuclear arms control negotiations is already impeding U.S.-Russian progress in this area. Beijing has traditionally resisted participating in formal nuclear arms control agreements. . . . Whereas U.S. officials want the next major nuclear arms reduction agreement to include only Russia and the United States, Russian negotiators want China and other nuclear weapons states to participate. In particular, Russian representatives insist they cannot reduce their major holdings of nonstrategic, or tactical, nuclear weapons without considering Chinas growing military potential. Involving China in certain U.S.-Russian arms control processes could facilitate progress between Moscow and Washington in these areas and yield ancillary benefits for related issues.
Is this the reason for the N.S.A.s activities at Tsinghua? My intel friend held it out as a good, educated guess, but then made a broader point. Contrary to the depictions in movies, the N.S.A. does not engage in foreign surveillance as part of some James Bondian plot to take over the world. Decisions are based on the national-security needs of the United States. Actions at Tsinghua are not arbitrary; there is a national-security reason they are being done, whether about arms-control policies in China, something else altogether, or both.
MADem
(135,425 posts)PSPS
(13,607 posts)flamingdem
(39,314 posts)because some nerd butt doesn't know reality from idealism?
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)Because some nerd butt doesn't know reality from idealism?
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Jesus.
flamingdem
(39,314 posts)MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)LOL, OMG... He's such a nerd butt.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Big secret....PSSSST.... the cool kids are NOT cool at all. The rest of the school knows it, they don't.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)stop, it hurts
flamingdem
(39,314 posts)but I'm not as paranoid about it as many others. My issues are voting rights, citizens united, climate change.
And in this case we can see intelligence can actually help with arms control. This is a factor that many here don't understand.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)But keep on busting with the "high school" jargon and condescension. It is HILARIOUS!
flamingdem
(39,314 posts)Got it.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Doesn't make a lick of sense but it is finger licking good!
Romulus Quirinus
(524 posts)It's good to have fiber to go along with all those carbs, eh?
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)What's really hilarious is watching a twice-banned zombie ragging on another DUer.
Sid
flamingdem
(39,314 posts)aaaaaaaah
PSPS
(13,607 posts)I'll have to add that to my list of apologies:
1. This is nothing new
2. I have nothing to hide
3. What are you, a freeper?
4. But Obama is better than Christie/Romney/Bush/Hitler
5. Greenwald/Flaherty/Gillum/Apuzzo/Braun is a hack/gay/doesn't live here
6. We have red light cameras, so this is no big deal
7. Corporations have my data anyway
8. At least Obama is trying
9. This is just the media trying to take Obama down
10. It's a misunderstanding/you are confused
11. You're a racist
12. Nobody cares about this anyway / "unfounded fears"
13. I don't like Snowden, therefore we must disregard all of this
14. My private life contains "critical intelligence," so it must be monitored
flamingdem
(39,314 posts)MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)or gained some perspective.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)"My tolerance for Edward Snowden has run out."
I stopped reading there.
flamingdem
(39,314 posts)at this late date
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)goes well with the arm band and party banners.
flamingdem
(39,314 posts)I make sure to do the lingo at those when I've downed a few
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)flamingdem
(39,314 posts)funny thing
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)So exactly what are you saying? Oh and I have to add Cali Democrat to your list of Heathers. Where would you be without he/she. Sorry I was remiss with that omission.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)pnwmom
(108,988 posts)he had on internal US surveillance, and putting the focus on damaging, possibly treasonous, revelations of US spying on other countries.
In his narcissistic megalomania, he crossed a very serious line.
Cha
(297,446 posts)in 2009. Prolly evolved on that issue since they're so close to home now.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023102239
With the pics to prove it..
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3102896
Dead on point, pmwmom..
..by taking the focus off the information he had on internal US surveillance, and putting the focus on damaging, possibly treasonous, revelations of US spying on other countries.
In his narcissistic megalomania, he crossed a very serious line.
NoMoreWarNow
(1,259 posts)Cha
(297,446 posts)NoMoreWarNow
(1,259 posts)PSPS
(13,607 posts)Well, except for anyone who was paying attention that is. But, by all means, let's just concentrate on how "bad" Snowden is and how he is a "narcissistic megalomaniac" who has "crossed a very serious line." Yes, that's it. Thanks for enlightening me. Why, I feel better already! Gee, I'm just dandy with my government spying on me! Thanks!
pnwmom
(108,988 posts)But you should be unhappy for what Snowden has been doing and threatening to do with regard to US relations with other countries. Sabotaging delicate negotiations with Russia and China is a bad thing. Threatening to release the names of current Valerie Plames is a bad thing -- as we seemed to understand during the Bush years, but have forgotten in the interim.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Inwards is just their invention...
Jesus...on a crutch
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)nt
snooper2
(30,151 posts)I think the level of misinformed opinions has reached a breaking point on DU
Taverner
(55,476 posts)With the USSR, we made them so paranoid, we almost had WWIII
Since now much of our fleet is in the Pacific, surrounding China, they are starting to get a little paranoid too
Don't make other countries paranoid
It's not good for business
flamingdem
(39,314 posts)I think that intelligence can help more than hurt at least in some of the examples described.
It seems like China really didn't know that this was happening, hard to know if that's true, but if so that would have been damaging to the establishment of trust.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)I don't think Governments, if they truly are of the people, should have secrets
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)flamingdem
(39,314 posts)Paranoia can make everything look negative but institution can be sources of progress, of course.
It's back to what Ed Schultz said, am I going with Obama's assessment of this or Snowden's..
Snowden and Greenwald are negative angle and in their own way pushing fear, the same fear they criticize.
railsback
(1,881 posts)"Snowden and Greenwald are negative angle and in their own way pushing fear, the same fear they criticize."
Its like when they say 'stop attacking Greenwald personally' while personally attacking those questioning his authenticity.
flamingdem
(39,314 posts)now there's a whole twitter feed devoted to it
watch the aclu fall for the drama ..
ACLU Massachusetts ?@ACLU_Mass 25 Jun
Creepy: Glenn Greenwald's partner's laptop was stolen from their Rio home. Nothing else was taken. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/06/25/greenwald-snowden-s-files-are-out-there-if-anything-happens-to-him.html
here's a twitter hashtag for upset greenwaldistas
#ggscandals
example of the humor:
umair haque ?@umairh 2h
Glenn Greenwald was mean to a puppy once. #ggscandals
railsback
(1,881 posts).. and pretty hard to stomach.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Please, I like reading, but when I come across a sentence that just makes no sense I want some clarification. They are negative angle? Help me out here, I don't get this.
flamingdem
(39,314 posts)HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Are they letting you down?
flamingdem
(39,314 posts)There's never a very good justification for this kind of childish posting.
Why don't you write a post of your own with your thoughts.
Otherwise you're just playing irritant and you and your twin might end up tombstoned
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)I don't recommend that, it is harsh and makes ones skin look bad.
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)You're just into petty public humiliation.
pnwmom
(108,988 posts)that all too many otherwise intelligent people seem to lack completely.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)is cyber-spying on us by China also OK if it is in China's interest?
Or are the Chinese subject to rules that don't apply to us?
flamingdem
(39,314 posts)They don't follow rules. It looks like the US isn't quite as nefarious.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)flamingdem
(39,314 posts)and trust what I know that I know
frylock
(34,825 posts)you just place trust in your government, full stop.
flamingdem
(39,314 posts)At Thu Jun 27, 2013, 11:01 AM you sent an alert on the following post:
in other words, you don't know fuckall..
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3111781
REASON FOR ALERT:
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)
YOUR COMMENTS:
.
JURY RESULTS
A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Thu Jun 27, 2013, 11:10 AM, and voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT ALONE.
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: Enough with the gratuitous nastiness around this place. If frylock can't debate without being a dick, he should be shown the door by MIRT.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: Close one. Not really that bad, almost voted to leave it alone, but it is ruder than is necessary. The person that the poster is responding to is not being rude, and this response is very rude.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Thank you.
Scurrilous
(38,687 posts)That's closer than usual.
And despite what frylock says, I believe you really do know fuckall.
frylock
(34,825 posts)flamingdem
(39,314 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)flamingdem
(39,314 posts)mañana
frylock
(34,825 posts)and got no plans of going anywhere. but it's nice to have a dream, isn't it?
flamingdem
(39,314 posts)we'll probably be on the same side of some issue sooner rather than later
for now you're a bit too passionate on this one .. that's why I shared that with you .. I am not the only one who would find it over the top.
frylock
(34,825 posts)I've clashed with many people here over a particular issue only to discover that we're aligned on another.
flamingdem
(39,314 posts)of my Democratic Club. They are very liberal usually compared to most clubs but wow I was the only one not tripping about civil liberties and excited about Snowden's revelations. So I kept my mouth shut!
I learned something about people who are very focused in on civil liberties. That's never been my focus but I can see it's almost a religion, interestingly it was the over 60 set and the under 35 group who were most agitated about nsa and related.
However it did turn to attacking Obama very quickly, something I find dangerous considering the upcoming midterms.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)The effect is sort of like an "open skies" program in cyberspace, so far as intergovernmental relations are concerned. And it is useful to all governments in terms of keeping tabs on non-governmental adversaries.
And all countries get to complain about the actions of others to their constituents. This allows them to enhance internal data integrity and privacy programs.
Snowden is messing with the program.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)companies that aren't in on the spy conspiracy.
Liberty, justice? Spying of the sort you describe that includes spying on normal people and private businesses is inconsistent with the concepts that hold our country together. And forget about free enterprise if trade secrets are scooped up by surveillance nets.
creeksneakers2
(7,475 posts)is OK with the Chinese but not with us. The U.S. spying on China is OK with us but not the Chinese. So it does work out even.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)Scurrilous
(38,687 posts)"Global hyprocrisy tour?" Shouldn't that be hero tour?
flamingdem
(39,314 posts)http://www.wnd.com/markets/news/read/24430043/snowden_is_%27handsome%27_hero_in_china
Snowden Is 'Handsome' Hero in China
By: ABC News: Top Stories
NSA leaker Edward Snowden has reached hero status for many Chinese internet users. His Chinese fans on Sina Weibo, Chinas version of Twitter, have posted Snowdens old modelling photos and Snowden Handsome is the first result to come back when his last name is entered...
JI7
(89,259 posts)wife was ugly. remember, china was where they thought that one girl during the olympics who sang a song was not pretty enough to be shown and they got someone who had more of a "western" look .
flamingdem
(39,314 posts)Twitter is terrible for catty remarks (with racial undertone if not overt) as we saw with Rachel Jeantel this week.
Cha
(297,446 posts)And along the way, Eddie decided to toss out classified information about foreign-intelligence surveillance by the United States in other countries. For the Chinese, he was quite a spigot of secrets. He revealed documents showing that the N.S.A. had obtained text messages from the Chinese by hacking into some of the countrys telecommunications networks, engaged in computer espionage activities at Tsinghua University, and hacked into systems of Pacnet, an Asian provider of global telecommunications service
"Grand Hypocrisy Tour" is perfect in its succinctness.
thanks flamingdem
TalkingDog
(9,001 posts)But thanks for sharing.
NoMoreWarNow
(1,259 posts)BeyondGeography
(39,377 posts)K&R
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)Now there's great sourcing for you. Damn! Yes, let's all sit around in a circle and be schooled now by the Rand Corporation on how surveillance is cool.
And we see drivel here arguning about what to TRUST? Puleeze. Don't even bother to go there again after this -- there isn't even a vague clue of the concept. Clearly.
LeftInTX
(25,464 posts)The parallels between Pearl Harbor and 9/11 are interesting. According to the article we had the info, but it wasn't used properly. I never knew that.
Would Snowden have been outraged that the United States was intercepting Japanese data at a time when the countries were not at war? It took years to crack the Purple codewould Snowden think the United States should have waited until after Pearl Harbor to tap into Japanese communication lines, and only then begin the arduous effort to break the code? And if not, then what is his point in turning over these kinds of secrets to the Chinese? All I have to say is, thank God Snowden was not around in 1937, four years before the United States joined the warLord knows how many Americans would have died if he had acted with whatever arrogance, or self-righteousness, or narcissism, or pure treasonous beliefs that drove him to his espionage on behalf of the Chinese.
ohheckyeah
(9,314 posts)so, the U.S. collects tons of data but doesn't know how the hell to use it properly once it has it and that's supposed to be justification for collecting more data?
Really instills a lot of confidence in the government, eh?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)They spy on us, we spy on them, that's Tuesday.
Can we speak of how this affects citizens of the US who have their civil rights violated...for our own safety of course. That is the question at hand. Not were he's gone.
haele
(12,665 posts)I do have a lot of issues exposing our foreign surveillance. I did with the Shrub and Valerie Plame (how many people do you think that killed?) and I do with exposing the "spy game" in China and other countries at this time - which will probably also kill people or cause deaths in the future.
That's the issue with the article.
Our soi-naive "hero/whistle-blower" Snowden might be due for an attaboy or two - I won't argue the potential unconstitutionality of Prism and Solarwind and the over-reaches of the corporate wing of the NSA; but he also committed at least three significantly serious honest National Security aw-shits that he does need to take responsibility for.
I don't like the fact he's running from those like a giggling Robin Hood, throwing everything to the wind and sowing chaos in his wake instead of thinking about how to fix or mitigate the current vicious confluence of national security, privacy, and profits.
I hold the same viewpoint when it comes to Cheney and co. I don't care if TPTB are hypocritical corporatists, but I'm not. Everything's not okay just because we do it.
Haele
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Especially since this man has not been interviewed by foreign agents, as far as we can tell
Two possibilities to that...his information on us spying on them is so hum hum, that it is he propaganda value is more valuable.
Or...like we have done for decades, the CIA counterparts have reporters who are spies too.
FYI, vanity fair was (probably still is) tied to CIA operations, with a slew of other elite media.
haele
(12,665 posts)right before investigations for fraud against the government or government interests after audits had already found significant wrong-doing.
Not that it's a bad thing to do that, but it's more like setting that company up in the public sphere right before the government brings the hammer down.
Greenwald himself has plenty of "friends" in the intelligence world who are prefectly happy to feed him leads for their own benefit or to manipulate media viewpoints.
Snowden might not have been interviewed, but from what little passing experiance I've had with such organizations (foriegn and domestic), I'm 95% sure he's already been searched and information taken, no matter how "secure" he think's he's been.
I think BAH pissed some people in the operational side of things off. They do have a reputation for being a bit high-handed and finding ways to make money on contracts in ways that are considered less than ethical. However, I also think Snowden probably got more information than they bargined he would get due to corporate inertia.
That is, unless someone(s) wanted a master reset of their alphabet soup organization and orchestrated this "leak" to get rid of projects (and people) that were too costly and inefficient without going through the process of justifying the cancellation of contracts and potentially slowing the overall money spigot.
Haele
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)but what I am hearing locally is pissed off people regardless of party affiliation. If it was a slow hang out (the way the government has handled this tells me otherwise), it was poorly done.
I mean it is so bad that people may give up on government altogether. I mean all of it, including your local planning board.
But empires do rot from the inside, and this apple is showing how mushy it is any longer.
flamingdem
(39,314 posts)There are multiple reports on that and a new one today. He's not as good as the hackers in China or Russia.
I'm guessing its our very own hacking that allows the US to know that his information has been obtained.
Sure it could be a psyops to make Snowden less of a hero but I tend to think they don't need to do that and that like you say a lot is known and they're doing cleanup.
Interesting theory you have about how Booz might have set him up to justify changes that might save them millions (billions!)
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)telling the Chinese how and when and where we are listening in when we are trying to negotiate limits on nuclear arms is incredibly stupid and dangerous.
they can't arrest this guy soon enough.
NoMoreWarNow
(1,259 posts)IMO, the NSA is causing the damage to this country by erecting this insanely unproductive surveillance state.
Btw, spying on other nations is fair game--par for the course-- but spying on our own citizens is unconstitutional.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)Now they do. And hell let's assume they did. That is not for Mr. Snowden to decide. And will in no way serve him as a defense at his trial. And that trial will happen as it looks like Mr. Snowden's available options are rapidly shrinking. Nobody wants him. the Chinese and the Russians already have what they want. They don't need him anymore.
He is toast.
NoMoreWarNow
(1,259 posts)seriously-- that does make a difference.
And I admit it obviously looks bad to give out info like that. I'm not sure why he did it-- maybe as part of a deal to avoid extradition. And it sure doesn't help his defense. Finally, I'm not sure I trust him either. I just don't like the way he has polarized this discussion, so that people here either think he's great or a traitor.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)Edward Snowdens revelations keep coming. On Friday, the South China Morning Post reported that the former National Security Agency contractor shared details on the IP addresses of the computers in Hong Kong and China that the NSA had hacked over the last four years. The detailed data also reveals whether an attack on a computer was ongoing or had been completed, along with an amount of additional operational information, reports the Hong Kong daily. Snowden insisted that he felt comfortable sharing this information because the targets were civilian computers. "I don't know what specific information they were looking for on these machines, only that using technical exploits to gain unauthorized access to civilian machines is a violation of law. It's ethically dubious," Snowden said.
Snowdens justification seems either naïve or purposefully misleading. As the New York Times points out, the line between the civilian sector and the government is hardly clear-cut in China. While some legal analysts say Snowden may be digging his own grave, as one put it, others contend that the leaks could encourage Beijing to prevent the former contractors extradition if he agrees to share what he knows. At the very least, the revelations to the Hong Kong paper seem to demonstrate he has plenty of information that Beijing might find interesting. So far though it isnt clear whether Beijing will get involved, according to a South China Morning Post source. Theres much officials could learn from Snowden. Former CIA chief of staff Jeremy Bash tells ABC News that if a foreign government learned everything that was in Edward Snowden's brain, they would have a good window into the way we collect signals intelligence.
Some in Beijing insist Snowden gives China an opportunity that cant be wasted. On Friday, the Global Times, a Communist Party mouthpiece, called on Beijing to get all the information it can out of Snowden and to treat him well so that others who may have secrets might be encouraged to seek refuge in Hong Kong: "The Chinese government should acquire more solid information from Snowden if he has it, and use it as evidence to negotiate with the U.S."
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/06/14/edward_snowden_reveals_details_of_hong_kong_and_china_nsa_hacking.html
here is the original Chinese story:
http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1260306/edward-snowden-classified-us-data-shows-hong-kong-hacking-targets
NoMoreWarNow
(1,259 posts)the IP addresses of the Chinese computers should be obvious to the Chinese, as well as whether they were under attack. This info would mainly serve to bolster Snowden's credibility to the Chinese. But as I said, it does look bad and obviously the US can prosecute him for this.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)Suffice it to say, that's Tuesday, nerd butt.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)But hey, thats just real life, not the Internet privacy that concerns Snowden. And, of course, the level of the Chinese governments surveillance and control of their citizens use of the Internet is almost an art form. Just six months ago, Chinas legislative body, the Standing Committee of the National Peoples Congress, adopted the Decision to Strengthen the Protection of Online Information. The new rules, which Human Rights Watch says threaten security and privacy of internet users, require telecommunications providers to collect reams of personal information about customers who sign up for Internet, landline, or cell-phone service. The law also requires for the providers to insure they have the ability to immediately identify the real names of people who post comments under pseudonyms. Guess why? In the days following the decision, Human Rights Watch reported, several well-known online activists found that their weibo micro-blogging accounts had been shut down.
As for Russia, the crackdown on public activism has intensified in recent months, which, again, has led to Human Rights Watch issuing a report just a few weeks before Snowden landed in Moscow. The crackdown is threatening civil society, said Hugh Williamson, Europe and Central Asia director at Human Rights Watch. The EU has spoken out strongly in recent months, but now is the time to directly call on Russias leadership to revise restrictive laws and stop the harassment of independent groups. Primarily, the Russians are going after hundreds of rights groups and related activist organizations as part of a massive campaign to force them to register as foreign agents. The authorities are seeking to define political so broadly as to make any involvement in public life that is not controlled by the government off-limits, Williamson said. They are also trying to tarnish groups with the foreign agents label, which in Russia can only mean spy.
And what about Ecuador? Why, just two weeks ago, this country that is apparently on Snowdens list of possible future homes passed new rules that impede free expression. The statute, called the Communications Law, prohibits anyone from disseminating information through the media that might undermine the prestige or credibility of a person or institution (you know, like revealing a government-sponsored surveillance program). The law also places burdens on journalists, making them subject to civil or criminal penalties for publishing information that serves to undermine the security of the state (you know, like revealing a government-sponsored surveillance program).
It's fascinating to watch people cheering these countries because the "stuck it" to the U.S.
Ecuador Says Snowden Asylum Document Unauthorized
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023110603
DCBob
(24,689 posts)Imagine an American seeking political asylum in Russia regarding a government surveillance complaint. Its simply absurd.