There are people who don't think animals have a soul. I say they are wrong.

[DonRedwood]

Having my own herd of pets, I have no doubt that my pets love me and each other. We put our faithful hound dog down here in the living room a few years ago. Our cats wouldn't leave her side until it was over. Then they both got up, moved half a foot away, where they sat next to each other with their backs to the dog. Those two cats were not buddies but they loved that dog. I have no doubt they mourned her passing. (as did I).
This video is something different. Almost a human act, but, perhaps a canine act that humans learned from their cave dogs? It is an amazing video. I'm very sorry for the dead puppy, very sad for the grieving dog, but amazed by this act of sadness and mourning.

Anyone with a dog knows the difference between pushing things with their snout and digging with their paws. Dogs push things to you with their snout when they want to give you something. This dog loved its buddy (or baby-not sure which).

Peace everybody. May we all learn from our animal buddies.

EDITED TO ADD: Since the idea of "soul" is not something everyone agrees upon, myself included, I ask that you fill in that blank on your own. But there is a spark to life that makes us all different from each other, that allows us to love and care and feel, and it is something that leaves the body upon death. I don't have any idea what that actually is, but to me, that is kind of the soul. That little bit of something that makes you different from the dead body that stays behind. Do I think there is something next? Yup. I do. But I have no idea whatsoever what that is. The only think I am sure of, it is not what big religion tells us it will be. I guess we'll see, eh?

[GeorgeGist]

1. People are animals, too.

[DonRedwood]

2. OK, some animals don't have souls...

the human ones. And just the bad ones.

[Rod Walker]

3. Count me among those who don't think animals have a soul.

...given that there's no evidence that "souls" exist in the first place.

[cynatnite]

4. I don't think humans have a soul. Why would I think animals have one? n/t

[stopbush]

14. Bingo! We have a winner!

[hamsterjill]

5. And peace to you.

I agree with all that you've said. My tribe of critters most definitely love one another, protect one another, and grieve for one another. I've been privileged to be a part of their lives!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

6. The concept of souls is a religious concept. So for those of us who are not religious

it is really difficult to interpret what a soul means.

Some animals have concepts of morality such as empathy and fairness. If that is what you mean by souls, then yes, some animals have 'souls'.

[DonRedwood]

9. I guess I should have described what I think a soul is....

That spark of life force that makes us different than a dead body...with an ability to love and connect to other living beings. That sort of thing. Not the complicated mess that religion has turned it into.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

17. some animals have empathy, which is what it seems like you are describing. mostly mammals.

i recently heard a TED talk about this

[snooper2]

7. There is no such thing as a "soul" besides an abstract concept

Just like there are no "ghosts" or "fairy gods" in the clouds-


Sounds warm and fuzzy but that's about it. Be happy in the miracle that is nature that allows certain animals to be around humans without eating our eyes out

[DonRedwood]

15. I'd have to argue about the ghosts....

been there. seen that.

Can't explain a darned thing about it.

But there are ghosts.

[snooper2]

16. Sorry, no, they don't exist either...

Your brain wasn't able to interpret the stimuli coming in-----

[Logical]

33. No there is not really. Especially with cameras everywhere, proof is still....

Not there.

Just like ESP and astrology, etc. Mary claim experiences but that is not proof.

[Rod Walker]

36. Isn't it funny now that there are CCTV cameras everywhere, ghosts & UFOs are nowhere to be seen on

surveillance footage?

[bananas]

23. There's no such thing as an "abstract concept" besides an abstract concept

and yet abstract concepts do exist!

[MindPilot]

8. I don't believe humans have a soul either, but...

Animals have a hell of a lot more going on in their brains than we give them credit for.

A few month ago I had the TV on with sound off and music playing. As I surfed through the channels looking for something that went with the music, I stopped on an show about training rescue dogs. In the show a golden retriever was walking on a elevated plank. My dog, Dingo, an Aussie Shepard, Golden mix, started watching intently. Then the dog on the TV fell partially off the plank. Dingo instantly tensed up. you could totally see him narrow his focus, his face was taunt. Then the trainer helped the dog back up on the plank.
Dingo sat back, relaxed. But he did not take his eyes of the TV until that dog had made to the end of the plank and safely on the ground.

Think about all the "human" functions that have to be in play there. First this is purely visual--there was no sound--but Dingo would have to have visually identified another dog--one that looks like him. Then he has to understand that the dog on the TV is in jeopardy--that requires a complicated thought process, being able to look at a situation and predict an outcome. Then for that distressed reaction, Dingo had to have felt some kind empathy for the other dog.

That is some pretty complex emotional behavior for an animal.

[aikoaiko]

10. No souls for animals - human or otherwise.

[Egalitarian Thug]

11. K&R If anything has souls, it is the animals. n/t

[grilled onions]

12. To Earn Your Place In A Better Place

If such a place exists one would have to help others along the way, making life better for others and often doing for others before yourself. Animals seem to fit that bill far more than many humans who often seem to want to take and destroy as they see fit. Animals, especially our domesticated varieties love,entertain and enrich the lives of other animals as well as humans. Many a mutt has rescued a family from tragedy. Some help keep the soul alive for one who is homeless. That animal will not leave his side simply because he has no money or a roof over his head. Almost everyone I know has a story to tell about an animal in their past that brings a smile to their face or a tear to their eye. They are unforgettable.

[hlthe2b]

13. There are plenty of people that I believe have no souls

Perhaps one must have a soul to recognize one...

And clearly, there is more compassion, intelligence--emotional and intellectual-- empathy and, yes, souls among our non-human animals than we have begun to discover.

To those who refuse to acknowledge this, I pity their willful ignorance.

[ZombieHorde]

18. Only spiders have souls.

That is why they are so creepy. They're haunted.

[BrotherIvan]

19. Anyone who thinks animals don't have emotions hasn't spent much time around them

Sorry the word "soul" is derailing your OP. I assumed you meant something as a counterpoint to the notion of "dumb animal."

I see it as a throwback to our agrarian roots, where animals were considered livestock and property, anything but living, feeling, thinking beings. That video is very sad, and I didn't know dogs had any preference for burial like elephants or humans.

Many people have a knee-jerk reaction because this often accompanies a demand to stop eating meat. But having gone through the whole process, including becoming a vegetarian for 10 years (which unfortunately landed me in very poor health) I finally came to understand that there is no eating without suffering. Monocrops or farming without animals is very harmful in other ways and leads to much suffering as well. Spending a ton of time and effort to seek out good farmers with humane and yes, compassionate practices has helped me make better decisions.

I must admit though, I'd love to hear your ghost story. I'm a sucker for those!

[rbixby]

20. They don't have one because they can't tithe

Or something

[longship]

21. There are people who say people don't have souls either.

Last edited Tue Jun 25, 2013, 02:34 PM - Edit history (1)

Of course, that's a different issue than what the argument in the above post is making.

I would prefer that it be phrased differently. Can anybody credibly claim that animals do not have the ability to have a sense of self? This is a tough question because it is difficult to know what a dog, elephant, dolphin, crow, etc. experiences. However, there is some research on this issue. For instance, dolphins and elephants both recognize themselves in mirrors. Dogs recognize when a human gestures by pointing their finger, something chimps apparently cannot do. Rats apparently communicate verbally as do dolphins. Octopodes do some astounding things. Ants, not so much so. Each animal is part of a broad spectrum of cognition.

Research on human cognition is equally interesting. Specifically, almost all neurological research indicates strongly that those attributes most associated with a soul are emergent behaviors from the brain. A sense of self, or that one lives within ones body, etc. Neurologists have learned that these attributes can be selectively turned off and on at will using a variety of techniques (drugs, various types of stimulation, etc.) or are present in people with brain dysfunctions, for instance epilepsy.

So the research is strongly indicative that there is no soul beyond the physical brain.

The question of treatment of animals is an ethical issue, not entirely a scientific one, although science can certainly help inform that question.

But, hanging ones hat for ethical treatment of animals on the existence of a soul is probably not the best argument. There is no workable definition of what soul even means beyond obtuse religious concepts, which like the many world's religions can be diverse and even contradictory.

I would hope that people would recognize that the ethical treatment of animals is correct on its own. And science can help here, too, and it has. It supports the ethics without the need to invoke a soul. Other animals may not have the cognitive skills of human animals but they feel pain, have at least some level of self awareness, and have emotional lives. The more science studies this, the more rich we find are animals in these respects.

Please don't hang ones ethics on a soul which may not even exist.

Thanks for the post. It is an interesting argument.

[Rod Walker]

24. Best post of the thread.

[longship]

26. Whoa! Thank you very much.

I owe it all to me being a huge fan of the Skeptics Guide to the Universe, which is (IMHO) one of the best podcasts in existence. SGU.

It is hosted by a Yale clinical neurologist, Steven Novella who often discusses the research in his field as it relates to the podcast's skeptical, science-based theme.

And the SGU has not missed a week in over six years!!! I know of no other podcast which can meet that incredible record.

So I am tipping my hat and raising my glass to the SGU.


Thank you again for your compliment.

[Logical]

34. I will check it out! n-t

[customerserviceguy]

22. How do you decide

which animals have souls, and which ones don't? Is it only the cute ones that have souls?

[sinkingfeeling]

25. I firmly believe animals have every bit a soul as human beings do.

[chillfactor]

27. my thoughts exactly n/t

[raging moderate]

31. The Bible says that animals have spirits, too.

Ecclesiastes 3:18-21:
"concerning the sons of men...they themselves are beasts...that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts...they all have one breath...a man hath no preeminence above a beast...who knoweth the spirit of a man...and the spirit of the beast?" It also says that the just man is considerate of the life of an animal.

[sinkingfeeling]

32. Thanks for that beautiful Bible verse. I don't think I'd heard that one.

[KamaAina]

28. There are even people who think that only mixed-breed animals have souls.

But purebreds do not.

[Recursion]

29. My favorite definition of "soul" is Aristotle's

He distinguished four types of causes:

1. Efficient cause: the table moved because I threw it
2. Material cause: the table broke the glass because it's made of wood, which is harder than glass
3. Formal cause: the table has four legs because that's what its design dictates
4. Final cause: the table has four legs so that it stands evenly

Aristotle defined an "animal" as something for which the formal and final cause or identical: that is, the "blueprint" of a dog is also the dog's purpose; to be the best dog it can be. That combined formal and final cause is what he called the "soul".

[Cleita]

30. Since I interpret a soul as a life force. All living biological beings have souls even

plants. A plant soul might be different than an animal soul in the fact that spirit might inhabit a group of individual plants as one. They aren't sentient like we are but they do seem to know what to do to survive like seek the sun and water. When it comes to self-aware species like our pets and ourselves, it becomes more obvious. I have always had a thing about taking a life even an insect without good reason. I don't think we have a right to determine what lives or dies except in self-defense. All life is sacred.

[red dog 1]

35. Whether or not animals have a soul is a personal belief

Last edited Tue Jun 25, 2013, 04:01 PM - Edit history (1)

The same as whether or not humans have a soul...it's a belief, one way or the other.
Some believe humans have a soul; and some believe they don't.
This is not something that can be proven, or dis proven.

I was raised a Roman Catholic, and was taught that "Jesus died for our sins"
That's what I believed for many years.
Now, 50 years later, I don't believe this
Now, after much reading and research, I believe that Jesus actually died because the Sadducees, (who were part of the upper social and economic echelon of Judean society, and who ran the temples), were really pissed off at Jesus because he threw out the moneychangers from the temple (if one "believes" the bible).
Is it just coincidence that shortly after this, he was crucified?
I don't "believe" so.
In my opinion, (belief) Jesus wasn't a "thorn in the Romans' side"; he was a "thorn in the Sadducees' side", because he didn't like them making money off those who visited the temple.
So THEY went to Pontius Pilate (procurator of Judea) and requested of him that Jesus be crucified

I can't "prove" any of this....it's just my "belief"..period.
It certainly is not the "belief" of the Catholic Church.

No one can prove or disprove whether or not humans and animals have "souls' either.

This too is a matter of "belief"

For those who are open to the possibility of the existence of the "soul", (human or animal), and the possibility of there being some kind of "life after death", I would recommend an excellent book written by a physician named Raymond Moody called "Life After Life"

For those who are 100% sure that when we die...that's it!...no "life after death",.. no "tunnel of light"....no "spirit leaving the body"....Nothing!
that is their "belief", and they have every right to their own beliefs.
We all do.