Since when does whistleblowing require transmission of secrets to the world?

[Dreamer Tatum]

The job of a whistleblower is to blow a whistle. Not to gather every scrap of information possible and
toss it to the wind in childish indignation.

At least Manning stayed around long enough to accept his fate like an adult. I've previously savaged him
here, but at least he has courage. Pointing a finger is one thing; filling hard drives and running like an infant
to economic and military adversaries is another.

And anyone who thinks China, Russia, and even ENGLAND don't spy on us...wow. Just wow.

[cali]

1. I contest your depiction of what Snowden did and is doing.

Furthermore, whatever his motives, Snowden has done us a huge favor in putting the issue of illegal, massive and exponentially growing surveillance as well as the incestuous corporate/government relationship within this expansion of the national security state.

It's my understanding that Snowden had no legal avenue to whistleblow.

And so what if China, Russia and England spy on us?

Snowden really isn't the issue.

[randome]

6. Snowden was a Systems Administrator, not an Intelligence Analyst.

He was never in a position to "see things" as he claimed.

So no, he is not whistleblowing because the most he could blow the whistle on was the warrant for phone metadata which was already known.

Putting the rest of his allegations into context means taking into account the fact that he never had access to the internal workings of the NSA.

Which is why this 'Run, Snowden, run' cheerleading is so unfathomable to me.

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[dkf]

11. Already known my ass. Like nothing he exposed caused the slightest bit of consternation. Lol

Get real.

[randome]

22. Think about it.

He showed us the legal warrant about phone metadata. We already knew about that.

Then he showed us that the U.S. spies on China. We already knew about that, too.

The NSA wants to stop him from giving away more secrets to China and other countries. You think that's unfair?

All of Snowden's other claims depend on taking his word for them. The word of someone who never had access to the internal workings of the NSA in the first place.

Why would you believe him?

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[dkf]

23. Because the Goverment won't tell me what is going on.

Since they refuse to come clean and in fact LIE straight to our faces Snowden has more credibility til they disprove him.

Actually I don't think I believe what the Goverment says anymore. Obama is just as bad. He hasn't fessed up to capturing our data yet. I am so disappointed in him. I can't believe I donated a single penny, distributed his literature. Devastating.

[randome]

25. Who lied? Clapper? I don't deny that.

But there is a reason we have national security secrets and there is a reason high-level authorities are not allowed to speak in public about these matters. He also realized his answer was a flub and answered truthfully later.

Is there too much secrecy? Hell, yeah!

But all this trouble, all this international hopping about, giving away national security secrets, Snowden ruining his life and getting everyone to turn on everyone else. For what?

So far it has all been for the two items I mentioned above: the legal warrant and the fact that we spy on China.

That does not rise to the melodramatic level of 'whistleblowing' to me.

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[dkf]

26. You haven't been following close enough.

He released the docs on how the FISA court was overseeing (or not overseeing) the NSA. There have been at least 6 docs iirc. And he released the UK docs which show that they capture US info and open it up to the NSA etal.

US officials are full of it. Disgusting.

[randome]

29. That's troubling, I agree.

I don't recall the FISA documents themselves and the media apparently didn't make a big deal out of them so I wonder if they were narrowly tailored to prevent the massive 'surveillance state' that Snowden claims.

I would need to look more closely into that, though, and I will.

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[ljm2002]

12. So basically you're saying...

...that our government is in an uproar over nothing. Nothing at all.

Yet the director of the NSA claims Snowden's revelations have done huge damage to our intelligence operations.

My own guess is, it's somewhere in between. Remember, Greenwald and the Guardian have more information than what has been reported on so far.

For example, we know there was a lot more information on those NSA training slides, that was not revealed by the Guardian. They only released a handful of slides from the whole presentation.

The argument that he has not revealed anything we didn't already know makes no sense at all, given the reactions to the story by various governments, including our own.

[randome]

21. He stole documents and gave away secrets to China.

What governmental organization -what private employer, even- will wave a fond goodbye to someone who steals and runs?

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[ljm2002]

28. What secrets?

From your own post:

"...the most he could blow the whistle on was the warrant for phone metadata which was already known."

Of course they will go after him, I am just remarking on the disconnect between saying things like he "gave away secrets to China" and "the most he could blow the whistle on ... was already known".

[randome]

31. Oh, come on. What he revealed to us was ho-hum, in my opinion.

What he revealed to China most likely contains the methods used to hack into their systems. No one knows for sure, of course, but any time someone takes documents to China, you can be sure he is not there for the cause of freedom in America.

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[ljm2002]

36. From your initial post that I was responding to...

...to wit:

"He was never in a position to "see things" as he claimed.

So no, he is not whistleblowing because the most he could blow the whistle on was the warrant for phone metadata which was already known.

Putting the rest of his allegations into context means taking into account the fact that he never had access to the internal workings of the NSA."

So back atcha: Oh, come on. Either he had secrets or he didn't. You chose to argue that he didn't. Now you want to argue that he did. Please, pick a position and stick to it.

[cali]

17. bwahahahaha. and how the fuck would the likes of YOU know that he was never

in a position to see things?

pull stuff out of your.... much? why yes, yes you do.

[randome]

20. Then why ddn't he get any evidence of his claims?

Even his claims of 'direct access' to all the world's Internet providers is bullshit, according to the companies involved.

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[ljm2002]

30. And "the companies involved", of course,...

...have no motive to lie.

Yes I certainly trust them implicitly.

Because they are so, sooo caring about my privacy. And they would never, ever act in cahoots with their government for any reason. No sir.

I'm not saying they are lying, I'm just saying I don't necessarily take their word for it. Therefore, their statements do not in themselves constitute a refutation of Snowden's claims.

[randome]

33. But you'll take the word of someone who says he "saw things" without explaining what he means?

The word of someone whose resume is forged?
The word of someone who said he was not in Hong Kong to hide from justice?

Sure, everyone up and down the line could be lying to us. But again, without evidence, or even just an indication that they are, why all this 'Run, Snowden, run!' nonsense?

I don't get it.

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[ljm2002]

37. You should try reading to the end...

...before responding:

"I'm not saying they are lying, I'm just saying I don't necessarily take their word for it."

If I'm not saying they are lying, that would mean that I'm not just taking Snowden's word for it either.

Clear now?

[wandy]

24. Once again, you would have to know........

Snowden's exact job responsibilities.
A Systems Administrator can be locked out of given data areas, however that depends on the security mechanism of the system and more importantly just how much authority and in what areas the Systems Administrators are given.
One would hope that in that type of environment, data security and systems administration/operation would be kept as separate as possible. To the least a 'guns and butter' relationship.
If that were not the case, poor system design is apparent.
Then, again their is the matter of Snowdens resume. Did he have the craft to override any restrictions placed on administrators to access any and all data. Information theft might be a good description here.
It would not be surprising if there were a team to identify and prevent such loopholes.
I certainly hope that NSA addresses these considerations.
Then and again........

[randome]

27. I think it's obvious that lax security allowed Snowden access to the internal NSA documents.

And you can bet NSA is addressing that right now, as you say.

But apparently Snowden did not have access to the internal workings of an Intelligence Analyst. If he did, then the question becomes why didn't he get evidence to support his statements?

His vague claim that he "saw things" doesn't stand up without some evidence. I'm not going to take his word for anything.

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[HardTimes99]

15. Hear, hear - nt

[niyad]

2. "childish indignation"? "running like an infant"? (when was the last time you saw an infant run?

very obvious tactic there, but keep trying.

perhaps it was having seen the WAY in which manning is being treated that made snowden decide to go.

and, most people are well aware of the spy game.

[snooper2]

3. He didn't reveal anything that wasn't already known

What he did do is make some ignorant blanket statements like

(I can listen to any call in the World! (real time))




LOL, then the stupid started coming out of the woodwork

[ljm2002]

14. "He didn't reveal anything that wasn't already known"...

...I'm sure Snowden would be ever so grateful if you would pass that on to the government authorities who are so anxious to prosecute him for theft of secrets. If they weren't secrets, then there must have been no crime, right? "No harm, no foul".

Yeah, that's the ticket.

[snooper2]

16. I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop

He has "tons" of documents right?


I'm sure they know more than everyone posting here. Laptops? Dongles? Come on snowboy let it all out if your such a super spy LOL

[avebury]

4. Since it has become abundantly clear

that whistle blowers who try to work through the system not only get their personal lives trashed but the perpetrators of whatever offense is being reported on are never held accountable for their misdeeds. Whistle blowers are treated horribly in this country and have, at times, ended up in jail. However if you are in government, a member of the 1%, a corporation and/or corporate officer who has helped to destroy our economy, etc. then you are perceived to be above the law. No one should be above the law. I am not going to get that upset on what Snowden is reported to have done until such time as the hundreds of individuals who belong the the previous mentioned groups are held accountable for their misdeeds.

[magellan]

5. And anyone who thinks China, Russia, and even ENGLAND don't know we spy back

...wow. Just wow.

Manning stayed around long enough to accept his fate like an adult? Manning didn't have a choice. He was arrested while on active duty in the ME!!

I wonder how many Americans are familiar with the names Binney, Drake, Wiebe and Tice and their NSA whistleblowing efforts? My guess is very few. They used the proper channels to try to blow the whistle. The government got hold of them and shut them down quick.

[Amaya]

7. I really don't care about Snowden

I don't about
China or Russia ...... The point is the United States Government is fucking SPYING on its citizens. Fuck them. And fuck anyone who tolerates that bullshit because it was brought to light under a democrat or because it's our patriotic duty!

And Manning stayed around and was tortured ... oh great... WT Flying Fuck!



DU looks like a freeperville party

[bigwillq]

8. Tremendous post.

[Dreamer Tatum]

10. Boy, I know MY response to learning about the US spying on its citizens

would be to pack up a bunch of computers full of secrets and flee to another country.

[dkf]

13. Still more to expose. We haven't learned of all the perfidy yet.

[cascadiance]

18. and ask Sibel Edmonds how State Secrets Privilege PREVENTS a whistleblower from being "responsible"

... and being able to do anything to constructively fix the system that they are sacrificing a good portion of their lives to fix.

The problem is when the system is FIXED to F with whistleblowers and prevent them from being able to effectively work within it to fix it, then many like Snowden will see that they have to go outside of it to force change instead. Americans just need to step back and see this reality before they start "killing the messenger" the way the government is telling them they should.

Manning, and many others recently have been the prosecuted instead of those who are really abusing our system of democracy inside the system.

Heck even the blogger who exposed the Steubenville rape case was being threatened with 10 years imprisonment for what he did, while the rapists themselves aren't getting more than a year or two. Just one more example of how the system doesn't want to be questioned by "the people" it is supposed to be answerable to.

Let's help Aaron Schwartz rest more comfortably in his grave for his ultimate sacrifice when he was faced with heavy penalties for trying to fix the system as well.

[Egalitarian Thug]

34. +1 The interesting times have only just begun. n/t

[Harmony Blue]

35. I agree

Manning has been tortured and people are asking some silly questions lately....

[X_Digger]

9. "If a whistle is blown in a forest and nobody's around to hear it, does it make a sound?" n/t

[Pale Blue Dot]

19. Ummm... EVERY SINGLE TIME

Watergate. Ellsberg. I could go on and on.

What do you think whistleblowing is, privately telling your supervisor?

I sorry, but this is the stupidest post I've seen on this whole mess. Learn some history.

[Deep13]

32. Accept his fate like an adult.

You mean his foolish idealism caused him to think he would be treated fairly. Manning wasn't being an adult (as if he could be anything else), he was being an idiot.

What Snowden exposed is plainly unconstitutional and, therefore, illegal. The real sin here is letting the public know to what degree the power structure was invading their lives.