An American citizen is seeking asylum in a foreign land

[CanonRay]

An American citizen must seek asylum from America.

Just think about that concept. How strange and odd and foreign that seems in the mind. The America I grew up in was a place others sought asylum. I cannot quite get my head around this idea. It isn't supposed to be this way.

But now we have:
secret courts, http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/21/us-usa-security-fisa-judges-idUSBRE95K06H20130621

secret laws, http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57588763-38/senators-call-for-end-to-justice-departments-secret-law/

secret trials, and http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bradley-manning-wikileaks-and-the-secret-trial-at-fort-meade-proceedings-begin-for-the-soldier-charged-with-leaking-national-secrets-8641393.html

secret evidence. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/18/fbi-secrets_n_3457258.html

I have an older friend who was a young boy in Nazi Germany during the war. This America is starting to look like the country he grew up in, not the one in which I grew up.

What happened to the "land of the free". How can this not be wrong?

This is not an anti-Obama scree, this is beyond one single President; a system out of control. I submit this is not a right/left issue. It's an American issue, and one we had best adress quickly, while we are still able.

[geek tragedy]

1. Seeking asylum doesn't mean one is entitled to it. nt

[CanonRay]

3. I don't think my post addressed the merits of his claim

merely the irony of the situation, and the unspeakable sadness I feel watching it unfold.

[geek tragedy]

4. Well, someone can be seeking asylum when in fact they're just a criminal.

The act of seeking asylum tells us nothing on its face--if the claim has no merit, it really tells us nothing.

[CanonRay]

5. Obviously, this is a political "crime"

not a murder or theft of bank funds.

[geek tragedy]

7. Had Snowden just showed those documents to the Chinese government, would you

feel differently?

[morningfog]

9. No.

[geek tragedy]

10. Do you think Jonathan Pollard got a raw deal then? nt

[CanonRay]

11. I beleive Pollard was spying for a foreign government

and if you cannot see the difference, then this discussion is meaningless.

[geek tragedy]

12. You said if Snowden had just handed these intelligence files over

to a foreign dictatorship, you'd feel it was a political crime.

Do you doubt that Snowden showed the Chinese government US intelligence documents in order to win his "get out of China free" card?

[CanonRay]

24. Actually, look at my posts, I never said anything of the sort.

My comment that his is a political crime had nothing to do with your query about "what if" he'd hand over doc to a foreign government. He didn't, so the point is moot. I won't speculate on what he did or did not show the Chinese. I don't know, and neither do you. And, frankly, your whole point has nothing to do with my post.

[zeemike]

47. There is no advantage in knowing intelegence

If it is first printed in the press and the whole world knows about it.

If he had been working as an agent or wanting to sell them information he would not have given it to the press....it would have made it worthless.

[morningfog]

14. In almost all cases, anyone serving a life sentence without taking a life got a raw deal, imo.

[geek tragedy]

16. He's going to be released in a couple of years anyways. nt

[nineteen50]

66. It says plenty

he feels he cannot get a fair trial in America since the changes after 911 the government can totally control the process the place the judge what can an cannot be used as evidence and what the public is allowed to hear. Don't you think Snowden has followed recent whistle blower court cases and how Manning is being treated? At one time America was the place people felt they could get the best trial now they run unless they have the $ to get off.

[geek tragedy]

68. Or it could mean that he broke the law and doesn't want to go to jail.

There's virtually zero doubt that Manning's release of the diplomatic cables was against the law.

[CincyDem]

79. Everyone seeking asylum is thought of as criminal in their home country.

Some people are criminals because their gender identification differs from the "norm".
Some people are criminals because of the tribe into which they were born.
Some people are criminals because of the faith they choose to practice.
Some people are criminals because they call out the inhumane practices of their home country government.
Some people are criminals because of the secrets they're willing to expose.

But, in the end, ALL asylum seekers are considered criminals at home.

I think the point of the poster is that it is weird to have America be the home from which citizens are seeking asylum.

(and it's not surprise that, as is usual, that many/most/all of us think he's a criminal).

[geek tragedy]

81. Roman Polanski sought asylum in France, because he raped a 13 year old

and didn't want to go to jail for it.

What did his bid for asylum prove about the US?

Edited to add:

Obviously, Snowden's case is a lot more political and nuanced than Polanski's is and he's nowhere near the loathsome pig Polanski is--point is that the mere fact that someone seeks asylum from the US doesn't prove anything.

[CincyDem]

83. I think the point of this is the changing nature of asylum.

I think there's a difference between the two.

I agree with you that Polanski was/is (at best) a loathsome pig. If I'm not mistaken, he was charged with statutory rape and pled out to indecency with a minor. He stood in a court room and was sentenced and decided to hit the road because he didn't want to do the time. I think the wheels of justice turned for Polanski and he demonstrated himself to be a sleeze - not only in his criminal actions but his unwillingness to then pay the price of those actions.

In contrast, I missed the wheels of justice turning on Snowden and, given Manning's experience and the effective suspension of habeus corpus anytime the government chooses, it's not an unrealistic presumption on Snowden's part that he might never see anything like the turn of justice that we, as a country and justice system, we willing to afford to even the lowest of our low - a child molester.

What's that say about us. We were willing to give a fair hearing to a child molester but not to someone who exposed the depth to which the patriot act has run amok throughout our system.

And to be clear - not only what does Polanski's asylum say about the US...what does it say about France ? Clearly they were on the wrong side of history. I suspect Hong Kong, Russia, China, maybe Equador, Venezuela...they all think they're on the right side of history here. What if they're right ?

[geek tragedy]

85. There's very little appetite on anyone's part to help another country

capture someone who's acting as a source of information.

If this guy was leaking (HYPOTHETICAL) Ecuadorian government documents about how they spy on people, he'd find a place to grant him asylum without a doubt. Perhaps in the US.

The reaction is generally, this guy's your problem, but no we're not going to help you keep your spying a secret.

Of what interest is it to these countries to help stop this guy from blabbing?

[CincyDem]

87. Agreed

Honk Kong's reaction that they released him "on a technicality" is an example of that.

And consider this from a global perspective. The US has a program that allows it to spy, at will, on any non-US citizen they choose. And the government is proud to say it, as if it were a deterrent. How do you think the rest of the world is feeling about this.

I traveled abroad pretty heavily from 1992 through 2008. It was absolutely amazing to feel the different in the post 9/11 world. I can't tell you how many people outside the US were openly hostile to the US by about 2005 or so. What do you think this stuff is doing for our world standing.

Imagine if somebody like India announced that they thought it was ok to tap the phone of every call from America that came into India. We'd be going crazy. And when someone did something inside India to make it harder to execute this program, I'm sure there would be a nice house, a cool swimming pool and a hot curry waiting for the guy when he got here. LOL

[im1013]

2. I was really hoping...

that I wouldn't have to see this actually happening in my lifetime. I feel
the need to DO something, however I have no idea what to do.
It's the scariest thing I've ever encountered.

[Awknid]

8. Why didn't they do this to Ellsberg?

Or did they? I was reading about him and trying to find out. Yes, our country has taken a terrible turn toward evil in the last 40 or 50 years.

As for Obama- call me naive, but I think his hands are tied. The look on his face the night he first won in 2008 was so different than the night before. I believe he was given some very unsettling instructions. He did not seem to be happy at all! Anyone else remember that? It was weird, as are some of his policies. But you cannot expect him to be able to fight the intelligence establishment single handed.

[oldandhappy]

18. agree

[hack89]

28. Ellsberg was arrested, indicted and tried.

due to illegal activity on the part of the FBI in gathering evidence, the trial judge declared a mistrial and Ellsberg walked free. A competent and legal prosecution on the part of the government most likely would have sent him to prison.

[RobinA]

45. The Point Is

Ellsberg was not treated like Bradley Manning. He was arrested and had all the Constitutional safeguards of an American citizen. Well, that an American citizen USED to have.

[hack89]

53. What Constitutional safeguards was Manning not afforded? nt

[TheMadMonk]

82. Speedy trial. Face his accuser. Just for starters.

Cruel and inhumane treatment.

Forbidden to use the information he leaked in his defence, despite the fact that it's an open secret know to all, but a couple of yak herders in Outer Mongolia.

I'm sure there's more.

[hack89]

84. His lawyers requested delays in order to prepare his defense.

His accuser is the US government - he is facing them right now.

His "inhumane" treatment last six months and ended over two years ago. He has been in the general prison population in a medium-security prison since April 2011.

There is no constitutional right to use illegally obtained information as a defense.

Try again.

[Coccydynia]

36. No. The President doesn't get a free pass because he didn't live up to your expectations.

[LeftInTX]

69. Ellsberg posted bail

Considering the serious charges against Ellsberg he was able to post bail. As to whether Snowden would be allowed bail is a good question. However since he left the country that would probably be a reason to deny bail to Snowden.

Manning unfortunately is within the military justice system. I have no idea whether the military allows bail.

[oldandhappy]

19. I have the same feeling.

[oldandhappy]

22. weird

my reply to you ended up somewhere else! Anyway, understand your post.

[dkf]

51. Me too

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. It has happened in the past

Not just in the open, and I will leave it at that.

[marions ghost]

13. "A system out of control..."

that is what we are looking at. That is the big picture.

And we need to stick together to confront this mind-boggling state of affairs.

Thanks for the links.

[OilemFirchen]

15. Were the tables turned...

the U.S. would ignore Russia's request for extradition.

And that's the way it should be. Obviously Kerry is obliged to make the request, and, just as obviously, Russia is obliged to refuse it.

Then there's this:

I have an older friend who was a young boy in Nazi Germany during the war. This America is starting to look like the country he grew up in, not the one in which I grew up.

My stepfather is a concentration camp survivor, now 92. He loves this country and he loves this President. He also, BTW, escaped Hungary's Communist rule and finds any comparison between the U.S. and totalitarian regimes hilarious.

[randome]

20. Your stepfather isn't the only one who finds these comparisons hilarious.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Coccydynia]

37. False analogy.

Growing up in a country that was conquered and then essentially occupied is different than growing up in a country that was Democratic and then morphed into Fascism on its own. We are Germany, not the conquered Eastern Europe.

[leftynyc]

30. Nothing is making me angrier

that the fucking morons who compare us to the nazis. They are bastardizing history to fit their views and it's downright evil.

[Coccydynia]

38. You can compare the trajectories for sure.

NAZI Germany arose over time, not over night. You don't have to wait until you reach the gruesome conclusion to know where this story is heading.

[leftynyc]

44. There is NOTHING the NSA

is doing that compares to the nazis - NOTHING. Just stop it already. The Nuremerg laws passed in 1935 were these:

The Laws for the Protection of German Blood and German Honour
(5 September 1935) Moved by the understanding that the purity of German blood is essential to the further existence of the German people, and inspired by the uncompromising determination to safeguard the future of the German nation, the Reichstag has unanimously resolved upon the following law, which is promulgated herewith:
Section 1
Marriages between Jews and citizens (German: Staatsangehörige) of German or kindred blood are forbidden. Marriages concluded in defiance of this law are void, even if, for the purpose of evading this law, they were concluded abroad.
Proceedings for annulment may be initiated only by the Public Prosecutor.
Section 2
Extramarital sexual intercourse between Jews and subjects of the state of Germany or related blood is forbidden.
(This concept was unofficially termed Rassenschande - 'defilement of blood'. Supplementary decrees set Nazi definitions of racial Germans, Jews, and half-breeds or Mischlinge --- see the latter entry for details and citations and Mischling Test for how such decrees were applied. Jews could not vote or hold public office under the parallel "citizenship" law.)
Section 3
Jews will not be permitted to employ female citizens under the age of 35, of German or kindred blood, as domestic workers.
Section 4
Jews are forbidden to display the Reich and national flag or the national colours.
On the other hand they are permitted to display the Jewish colours. The exercise of this right is protected by the State.
Section 5
A person who acts contrary to the prohibition of Section 1 will be punished with hard labour.
A person who acts contrary to the prohibition of Section 2 will be punished with imprisonment or with hard labour.
A person who acts contrary to the provisions of Sections 3 or 4 will be punished with imprisonment up to a year and with a fine, or with one of these penalties.
Section 6
The Reich Minister of the Interior in agreement with the Deputy Führer and the Reich Minister of Justice will issue the legal and administrative regulations required for the enforcement and supplementing of this law.
Section 7
The law will become effective on the day after its promulgation; Section 3, however, not until 1 January 1936.


Stop with the ridiculous comparisons to nazis - they're making you look foolish to anyone who actually knows history.

[Coccydynia]

72. Point missed, once again.

Before Germany was the Nazi Germany we all came to hate, Germany started down the path of authoritarianism. You can deny it, or decide that if you do no wrong you have nothing to hide. But that is where it began.

Now, we can use history to our advantage, or we can ignore history at our own peril, or we can draw the wrong conclusions from history.

I chose to learn from history.

[leftynyc]

74. Yes, I can deny it

because that's not what happened. As soon as WW1 was over and the treaty completely hosed Germany, people were starting to blame scapegoats. That's the lesson that needs to be learned. If you want to pretend the nazis started with spying and worked from there, that's a problem for your history professors because it's a fantasy.

So once again, I'M not the one missing the point.

[Coccydynia]

77. Okey, dokey.

[RobinA]

49. I Think the Point is

that the Nazis weren't the "Nazis" when they started out. People are saying, "Well metadata ain't so bad." The point some of us are trying to make is that you don't start out busting down the door of your enemy and shooting his family, you end up there. Yes, this is hyperbole. Yes, comparison to Nazis is hyperbole. But before 1942 there was 1932, and it looked very different from what it was to become.

[leftynyc]

50. The nazis were always the nazis

They passed the Nuremberg laws in 1935 and the US looks nothing like that at all. I understand people want to express their outrage at the NSA but STOP the comparisons to nazis - it's not historically accurate and does nothing but downplay what actually happened. If people can't make a point without stupid hyperbole, that's their problem.

[JustAnotherGen]

52. +1

[RobinA]

56. If People Keep

missing the point and going down various sidetracks, then it will be EVERYBODY'S problem. In reference to the Nazis always being Nazis, you might want to check out "In the Garden of Beasts" by Erik Larson. There are other books as well.

[leftynyc]

59. I haven't missed the point at all

and suspect the people making the comparisons are too inept to make their arguments using realistic examples.

[Coccydynia]

76. The PATRIOT act was the beginning of our journey.

See you at the end of the path.

[Coccydynia]

73. Thank you. You've expressed it much more eloquently than I.

[Marrah_G]

34. Point one I agree with

Point two is a little more difficult.

What Germany did was so horrific that people like to try and rationalize it that somehow it was an evil power and not human beings that were responsible. The problem with that sort of thinking is that it leaves you blind to the signs of it possibly happening again. And even beyond that, once you can be absolutely sure that a country is heading down a horribly destructive path, it is far to late to do anything to stop it.

Do I think we are turning into Nazis. No.

Do I think we are becoming a country heading towards a different place just as bad or maybe worse. Yes.

It's like boiling a frog. it happens slowly, so you almost don't even notice and those who do notice are called crazy.

[OilemFirchen]

40. We've been headed "towards a different place just as bad or maybe worse"...

often throughout our history. Native American genocide, Slavery, monopolies, internment camps, McCarthyism, Jim Crow, Vietnam (Cambodia and Laos), arms for hostages, torture...

Ebb and flow, my friend. But never anything approaching Totalitarianism, Fascism or Nazism. It's a beauty of our design - tons of checks and balances, a free press, a robust system of judicial review and redress.

Everything could get worse but, unless and until our powerful self-correcting system is upended, hysteria is totally useless.

[Marrah_G]

42. I personally think our system of checks and balances is broken beyond repair

Those who would need to vote to fix it, never will.

[OilemFirchen]

46. It's not.

Even if it were, it wouldn't be "beyond repair".

Sorry. That's emotionalism run amok.

[Marrah_G]

60. I disagree and I think that it is.

I respect your point of view, I just don't agree with it.

[oldandhappy]

17. You pulled it together.

Thank you for this set of links. All of this has been developing for a long time. I do not know if we have the wisdom to counter all of this. It cannot come from the top. Will have to be a grassroots uprising with a strong will to sustain all that will be involved. I do not know what needs to happen or what can happen but will keep my eyes open.

[Egalitarian Thug]

21. Oh no, it can't happen here.

Your friend is only one of the very many that have been saying this for a long time now. Of course once it's too late to do anything about it, we all know who will be whining the loudest and blaming everybody but themselves.

[Buzz Clik]

23. I guess you were born after Vietnam.

Draft dodgers in Canada.

That's not the only time.

Why the melodramatics?

[CanonRay]

25. As I considered going to Canada myself at the time

I don't think the two things are the same. I was interested in not fighting an unjust and insane war. Snowden is revealing government wrongdoing (and if one doesn't think spying on American citizens is wrongdoing, further discussion is pointless). Those two don't equate in my mind, although in fact you are correct, those who fled to Canada were seeking a type of asylum from our government, so maybe your comparison is more apt than I'm giving it credit.

My "melodramatics" are because I see the totality of what is happening, or at least I think I see the tip of the iceberg. It isn't just Snowden, it's everything the government is doing, from drone killing of citizens, to the spying, to the secret trials and courts. It's all just so un-American. Snowden just sort of switched the light on for me and brought it all together.

[VA_Jill]

65. Exactly

Sometimes I wonder what would be different about living in a country where the tyranny and corruption are up front and everyone knows they are there and just deals with it, from living in one where they exist but the government (and a lot of the people) pretend they do not.

[gcomeau]

26. What's strange or odd about it.

Guy massively violated law. Guy ran away to avoid prosecution.


Tell me the strange and odd part of that?

[CanonRay]

27. It must be wonderful to have things be so simple

I envy you.

[leftynyc]

32. Oh please

looks where he's running - China, Russia, Cuba - yes, he's a real giant for civil rights. I don't blame him for not wanting to go to jail but the lionizing of this "hero" is stupid.

[RC]

63. You really expect him to go to any America friendly countries?

Snowden might as well as stayed here and hidden out in a Motel 6 or something.

Anyway, what I hear you saying is that you think the US government collecting all the communication data on everyone, everywhere is just A-OK. Why don't you have a problem with that?
You think you don't have anything to hide, but the government secretly spying on you, your friends, neighbors and everyone else in the USA and the world, is fine with you?

[leftynyc]

67. Oh brother

My post said nothing about the NSA I'm guessing your just another rube who cannot hold two thoughts at the same time - that the NSA is out of control and the patriot act is a piece of shit legislation that needs to go AND that snowden is no hero who is is railing against a lack of transparency in the US from places like China and Russia. What a freeking joke.

[RC]

71. I can hold several thought in my head at the same time. But if they are related they have to mesh.

Talking points won't do it for me. Neither does lock-step. There are too many lock-steppers posting the government talking points on DU lately.
Our government, including the NSA IS out of control. The Patriot Act was mostly written before bu$h was even elected. Look at the short time between 9/11 and the time that massive document was put to a vote.

Why do you think Snowden is running? The NSA, correct?
Just because YOU did not mention the NSA in a post, does not mean there is no connection. Nice try.

[leftynyc]

93. I think you posted this to the wrong person

because that is not responsive to my post at all.

[RC]

94. Actually, it is.

[gcomeau]

35. You'll notice that I asked you to explain your position.

And *I* can't help but notice that you were incapable.

Sometimes things really are 'so simple'. Envy away, or you could just acknowledge reality and join me.

[sibelian]

48. He broke a law he felt had to be broken for a more ethical cause than that which the law supported.

He left the country that established that law because he felt that country would not permit to openly discuss the problem he saw.

So there you go. All you had to do was take away the NSA and he looked all different, didn't he? It's not as if the story's actually that complicated in the first place, it's just that in order to make him look like an unambiguous criminal you have to take away the idea that US security services are duplicitous and untrustworthy and have no real moral direction other than generalised advantage for themselves over everything else.

Perhaps you think the US securtiy apparatus is all nice guys and kittens and unicorns and on the side of ordinary Americans, in which case... well. It's certainly a comforting thought, isn't it?

But then, I think you knew all that. It's not like the board's been quiet about all this the past weeks.

[gcomeau]

54. Fine.

Which leaves the fundamental issue of "he broke the law and ran away to avoid going to jail" unaltered now doesn't it?

Which, I repeat, is not strange or odd.

"So there you go. All you had to do was take away the NSA and he looked all different, didn't he? "

Ummm... no? How were you under the impression it did that?

[nineteen50]

70. Yes "we owe our allegiance to the king but

we are still responsible for our soul"

[CanonRay]

80. What's "strange or odd"

is that this individual, while he did break "the law", does not trust our legal system enough to believe he could ever get a fair and impartial public trial. In this I agree with him. The goverment will so stack the deck he'll never have a chance, and may not even get a public trial. From an American point of view, this is stange and odd, at least to me. I happen to agree that he'd never get a fair trial here.

We'll hold the question of what is "the law" for now. It seems that you can get lawyers to say anything is legal or illegal (look up the torture memos). If you break an illegal law, is it illegal? Is making something that the government is doing illegally a "state secret" a binding legal law? I don't know, but you might consider the question.

[gcomeau]

89. Oh please.

"is that this individual, while he did break "the law", does not trust our legal system enough to believe he could ever get a fair and impartial public trial."

Pure unadulterated bullshit.

He ran because he's *guilty* and would get convicted. He's effectively given a public confession. Over and over and over and over.

"We'll hold the question of what is "the law" for now.

No... I don't think we will. He broke the law, and then he ran for it to avoid prosecution.

No strangeness. No oddness. "Criminal runs away from law enforcement" is pretty damn mundane.

[CanonRay]

90. Thanks for making my point!

[gcomeau]

91. I didn't...

...but maybe it's a bit much to expect you to get the difference between "wouldn't be acquitted" and "wouldn't be fair".

If a person puts themselves on national television and confesses to a crime.. and does so explicitly, repeatedly, and enthusiastically... they're going to get nailed for it if they get pulled into a courtroom.

That doesn't mean it wouldn't be a fair trial.

[leftynyc]

29. Meanwhile, with all this going on,

we STILL have thousands of people trying their best to get into this country. I guess not everybody thinks it's East Germany redux. Why I'm bothering conversing with someone who thinks we're like nazi Germany is beyond me because I think it's an evil comparison that makes mincemeat out of history.

[JustAnotherGen]

55. leftynyc

Good thread idea - start an op. And it's a good point. That I will speak to if you start it - send pm if you do. It's your point and it's a good one - so I don't want to plagiarize.

[leftynyc]

58. Not enough time for me

to pull all the thoughts together into an OP but I appreciate your support for the point I was trying to make. These nazi comparisons don't just piss me off, they make everything else the poster has to say irrelevant in my mind.

[JustAnotherGen]

62. Gah

I know - someone on another thread once again tried to compare him to Civil Rights activists. Medger Evers took a bullet . . . when Snowden does that . . . make the comparison. Not a moment before then.

[CanonRay]

78. OK, to clarify

I don't think we're Nazi Germany...yet, but we are taking steps in that direction. First, we are nearly Mussolini's definition of a facist state, the merger of corporate and state power. Second, where the Nazi's used citizens to spy on each other, it is no longer necessary...we have the NSA. So far they have not been arresting people for what they write or say. If you think that next step cannot happen, you are mistaken. The government is not driven by a racial ideology, I'll give you that. It is driven by corporate greed, however.

[leftynyc]

92. OK - that I agree with

The Citizens United decision was the worst decision in decades (although it didn't help the pubs in 2012 - it did force the Democrats to raise an unspeakable amount of money that could have clothed, fed and housed many Americans). But as you pointed out, that doesn't make us like nazis. We also do not have a government that is rewarding people for spying on their neighbors. I'm in complete agreement that the NSA is out of control, that the patriot act is a law that needs to be overturned (although this court hasn't met a police power it wasn't willing to grant). My objection is comparing it to the nazis who passed the nuremberg laws (I posted a list of them somewhere) and committed mass genocide - it's simply a misreading of history and a hyperbolic response that makes me skeptical of anything else the poster is writing - instead of seeing whatever message the poster is trying to convey, I see someone who uses hysterical rhetoric and is not a serious person.

[tridim]

31. Lots of Paul-ites and teabaggers will likely seek asylum from the country they hate.

I'm guessing it'll become common after they get walloped in 2014.

[JoeyT]

88. On the other hand,

Dick Cheney didn't have to seek asylum anywhere because the current administration is friendly toward him.

We might chase leakers with all our might, but we damned sure protect our war criminals.

[Autumn]

33. What with Gitmo, Manning and the current political climate

I don't blame him one bit. He is smart to do so.

[bike man]

39. I would imagine that most, but certainly not *all*, of the people

who sought asylum in the US were doing so in order to avoid PERsecution.

This guy is running/seeking asylum to avoid PROsecution.

[Cleita]

41. Yep, we have stepped through the looking glass in so many ways. n/t

[cstanleytech]

43. Except one big difference is he isnt doing it because the government

was persecuting him because of his race, political views, religion, sex or for anything else except for breaking the law as far as revealing information about classified intelligence programs including information regarding the US spying on other nations so really what you have here isnt someone fleeing their nation because they are being mistreated you have fleeing their nation because they are wanted for committing actual crimes.

[ProSense]

57. List of United States citizens granted political asylum in Cuba

"Just think about that concept. How strange and odd and foreign that seems in the mind. The America I grew up in was a place others sought asylum. I cannot quite get my head around this idea. It isn't supposed to be this way. "

It's not so "strange."

List of United States citizens granted political asylum in Cuba
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_citizens_granted_political_asylum_in_Cuba

Julian Assange Won’t Say When Wikileaks Began Working With Ed Snowden
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023082812

[baldguy]

96. Theives, rapists, kidnappers, airplane highjackers, murderers.....

Real fine upstanding list of people there.

[kardonb]

61. asylum

An American TRAITOR seeks asylum in a foreign county hostile to the USA .

[LeftInTX]

64. Joey Del Toro sought asylum in Mexico after murdering a woman in Florida

He was a paid hit man who killed the ex-wife of an associate. The victim was the mother of 2 year old quadruplets. They witnessed her murder.

He took off to Mexico after the crime and sought asylum. It took almost 2 years to bring him back to the US.

Excerpts from a congressional hearing about the case:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CHRG-106hhrg63595/html/CHRG-106hhrg63595.htm

House Hearing, 106 Congress
From the U.S. Government Printing Office

GETTING AWAY WITH MURDER, IS MEXICO A SAFE HAVEN FOR KILLERS?: THE DEL TORO CASE

snip..........

Today, this subcommittee will examine extradition problems
the United States has had with the Government of Mexico. In
particular, we are going to address the case of the State of
Florida v. Jose Luis Del Toro. We will not take anything for
granted in this hearing. I want to provide background on the
depth of this particular case which I believe may be useful for
the subcommittee.
The U.S. Government has requested the extradition of Jose
Luis Del Toro to Florida where he is wanted for the brutal
murder of Sheila Bellush, a resident of Sarasota, FL. The U.S.
Government has waited more than 18 months for action on this
matter.
The Government of Mexico has refused to turn over Jose Luis
Del Toro, despite our complete cooperation and agreement to
every demand.

snip.....................

Although the State of Florida clearly, for good reason,
wished to seek the death penalty, the prosecutors in that case
agreed to waive the death penalty at the Mexican Government's
insistence. Now, Mr. Del Toro still sits in Mexico, appealing
the extradition ruling while Sheila Bellush's family is
grieving, deprived of the justice they truly deserve.

[nashville_brook]

75. k and r

[jberryhill]

86. Roman Polanski threads are so last-year

[baldguy]

95. A self-confessed criminal is seeking asylum in a foreign land.

His crimes were premeditated, and could easily destabilize America's relations with a half-dozen other major countries.

Most of the time there are very, very good reasons that secrets are secret.