The Coalition of the Unwilling

[denem]

Russia, China, Cuba, Venezuela and Ecuador are unwilling to return Snowden to the United States.

For better or worse, it's not hard to see this as payback for the hubris of the Iraq war. America's appeals to International Law would have more authority, if the US took the same law more seriously itself.

[geek tragedy]

1. If you think the Chinese, Russian, and Cuban governments gave a shit about that kind of thing. nt

[denem]

2. I'm not sure I understand you?

Are they particularly concerned about International Law? No. Are they resentful of the United States exceptionalism? Yes - surely. When the US unilaterally ended the ABMT, it declared it's world order. When it declares that the ICC, nor any other international body can never rule on the legality of US actors, the implication is the US is above the law. We can do what we want, you will do as we say doesn't impress anyone.

[geek tragedy]

3. I doubt it's resentment, even. That's an emotion.

The Chinese and Russians are our global rivals, and all three benefit from reduced American prestige and influence.

Any change those three get to weaken the US, they're going to take.

[denem]

4. I don't dispute that for a minute.

But Vladimir Putin in particular, is I believe resentful of Russia's loss of status. There is emotion there.

[geek tragedy]

5. I doubt Pooty Put lets emotions govern such things. nt

[denem]

6. I respectfully disagree nt.

[geek tragedy]

7. It's a draw, since neither of us has George W Bush's ability to look into his eyes and see his soul.

[denem]

8. Just to be clear

I won't a have bar of Russia's, China's, let alone Cuba's pretensions about the Rule of Law. I am not holding a candle for these guys. I'm talking about the authority and leverage the US can exercise in the world. And hubris has weakened that, including the suggestion that the US reserves the right to the rest of the world's telecommunications, without exception. That's what Snowden is smoking.

[geek tragedy]

9. I was born in 1972, during Vietnam, and I don't recall an instance in my lifetime

where the USA had moral authority outside its own borders.

[denem]

10. Again we disagree,

but my views were shaped as an Australian Citizen; During the Cold War, the United States was prepared to put the homeland at risk of nuclear devastation, for the sake of Western Europe. It's no small thing. The US put it's men and money in the front line at West Germany. There's the morality - it didn't have to. Equally, the Soviet Union did not have to send its tanks into Prague in 1968 - there's morality there too of a rather different hue.

[denem]

11. Sorry I guess that was your point.

The legacy of the US defence of Western Europe, may seem like ancient history. It's still very real to me.

[geek tragedy]

12. Western Europe didn't seem particularly grateful--they thought

they were caught in the cross-fire of two global bullies.

[denem]

14. I lived in West Germany in the '80s

It didn't feel that way to me. The were worried Reagan might provoke the Soviets to war, but the spectre of Soviet tanks rolling into West Berlin was never far away. You could stand by the wall, and see Russian soldiers looking back at you.

[geek tragedy]

15. Given the way we treated Latin America and Southeast Asia as part of the cold war, it

never occurred to me that people might have viewed the US as protecting them.

Memory is a funny thing, I guess.

[starroute]

13. The point is that America-bashing sells

I've been wondering for a good while when villainous Americans would emerge as standard movie bad guys equivalent to the Nazis and Commies in the old days. I suspect that if the movie industry weren't still dominated by Hollywood, we would already have seen it. But down under the surface of the global propaganda machine, Americans have a well-deserved reputation as bullies and torturers -- and any time China or Russia can play up that trope, they automatically win.

It isn't about whether they care or not -- it's about them recognizing a good story and running with it.

[denem]

16. I'm suggesting that story includes a 'Coalition of the Willing' chapter,

and another for the Bush Blair bromance. It was one Hell of a story.