When was the last time, or any time, that Wikileaks

[pnwmom]

or a "whistleblower" released multitudes of secret documents from China or Russia?

Why is that, exactly? Are China and Russia "open" and "transparent"? Do they have no secret documents? Do they never engage in spying inside or outside their countries?

The US is operating in a CONTEXT that many Snowden supporters are all too willing to ignore.

[treestar]

1. I asked that question and some of the fans

Did have links that they had released other country's documents.

[Luminous Animal]

4. See post #2. I posted the same info multiple times and it doesn't seem to stick in people's head.

The pathetic thing about this accusation, is that it is too easy to find on ones own.

[Warpy]

2. Here is the website with documents assorted by country

China and Russia are listed. Have fun reading.

http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Category:Countries

Whistleblowers including Wikileaks are operating in a CONTEXT that too many unread people are all too willing to ignore.

[pnwmom]

5. Thank you. So 57 pages on Russia, 215 on China, and 9720 on the US.

And what do we have from China and Russia that's equivalent to Manning's release of 250,000 diplomatic cables?

[Warpy]

9. Go ahead, move those goalposts!

Your original complaint was that there have been no media announcements trumpeting the release of documents from Russia or China. I have proven you wrong, that the media silence never meant that nothing had been released.

However, do have fun with those goalposts. They're all yours, along with your straw man.

[pnwmom]

12. The numbers prove my point. I asked when Wikileaks had published "multitudes of documents."

The numbers of pages related to China and Russia are trivial compared to the 250,000 diplomatic cables released by Manning.

[frylock]

23. so take it up with the chinese and russian whistlblowers

[pnwmom]

25. The point is that our spying on Russia and China has a context.

And Snowden's revelations have only made diplomacy more difficult.

[morningfog]

29. Snowden's revelations have only made spying more difficult.

There, I fixed it for you.

[frylock]

49. ++

[frylock]

48. go on....

[treestar]

30. Yeah I noticed that too

And it's not as if China/Russia's sins are way worse.

[Luminous Animal]

3. Wikileaks can only report on documents that they are given. If Chinese or Russian dissidents aren't

currently uploading to Wikileaks, there is nothing Wikileaks can do about that.

And, of course we know that China and Russia are spying. What I find disturbing is that the U.S. blusters about Chinese hacking when we, in fact, are doing the same thing. I also find spying on conference attendees (G8 and G20) not kosher.

FYI, Russia has its own version of Wikileaks. I've forgotten the name but I'll try to find it. Since I don't read Russian, I've no way of knowing the kind of leaks that they are receiving.

[Recursion]

7. Really?

What I find disturbing is that the U.S. blusters about Chinese hacking when we, in fact, are doing the same thing.

Really? You actually find that disturbing rather than "what every country always does"?

[treestar]

11. It appears to at be disturbing that we try to protect ourselves

We should it appears have just let the Russians take over in the Soviet Era!

[Warpy]

14. He found the constant blustering disturbing, which it is.

Professionals would keep it zipped while they went about their business of pursuing our hacking programs while trying to block theirs. That's how business in the intelligence community is done. People who bluster about it generally aren't doing anything about it.

Unfortunately, it's being done to us, ordinary people going about their business. And it's being done both by the government and by corporations.

[Luminous Animal]

22. I fnd the hypocritical blustering disturbing, yes.

Do you think the U.S. should stop spying on other nations?

[treestar]

8. Maybe because they know they'd be shot?

Interesting that they don't get much from those countries because people in them are either more loyal, or more likely, a lot more scared.

[Luminous Animal]

24. I'd say a lot more scared. Though it is not to our credit that Manning could have

faced the death penalty and he was afraid that, if caught, he might.

[pnwmom]

13. We're not stealing their technology but they're stealing ours.

I find that disturbing.

[Luminous Animal]

16. How do you know that? I find the assumption that we aren't, disturbing.

[pnwmom]

21. We openly publish and patent our scientific research.

It is easy enough to see who originates the work.

[Luminous Animal]

26. How do you know that we aren't hacking in order to steal their secret technology?

[pnwmom]

32. Because we're the ones that develop the technologies first.

And because I've spent my life around engineering and science engineers. They're not stealing technology and they're not getting fed it by the government.

[Luminous Animal]

34. Hahaha! Oh those stupid Chinese.

[pnwmom]

35. They're not stupid. But they lack the scientific infrastructure we have here,

and so they've been taking some shortcuts in moving to a more technological economy from their previously rural-based economy, and one of them involves stealing technology.

[magellan]

53. We never did that? Remember Operation Paperclip?

Just because the Chinese boom coincided with the internet era, making it easier to steal technology, doesn't make it any more criminal than the science (and scientists) we've helped ourselves to in the past...and undoubtedly still do. It's an error to think otherwise, considering the amount of spying we do on other nations.

[pnwmom]

54. They are doing it now and we're justified in trying to protect ourselves from it. n/t

[magellan]

55. No one's arguing that.

But to suggest this is something new, or that we never did the same or would do now...that's the disagreement. We have just as many bad actors as any other country.

[pnwmom]

56. Yes, people are arguing that. People who are shocked and horrified

that we would spy on China, an "ally."

[magellan]

57. lol, well, I can't speak for those people

Or for the Chinese who are shocked, shocked to learn we've been spying on them. It's absurd to think otherwise. They're a rising global power. Of course we're going to spy on them, any way we can.

[Blue_Roses]

19. +1

nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. But not through wiki leaks

But you knew that right? Some of it our greedy corps gave away in search of cheap labor.

[HiPointDem]

36. we *gave them* technology, what are you talking about? *massive* technology transfer

when we started using china as a cheap manufacturing platform.

so i don't take *anything* you have to say about 'stealing' technology seriously.

if the US gave a damn about its so-called 'secrets' it wouldn't have contracted most of the military and intelligence services out to private corporations.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. There are Russian documents in the document collection.

[pnwmom]

10. Yes: 57 pages from Russia vs. 9720 from the U.S.

Which doesn't account for the 250,000 diplomatic cables released by Manning.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. You started with the assumption there were none

There are...so now we move goal posts.

The mission statement is not to embarrass the US, but to make these public.

This is what the mission is.

You don't agree with it, but they are getting documents from everywhere.

Though you asked, why don't we ever hear about it? US networks report on foreign media or events? Are you shitting me?

[pnwmom]

27. Please reread my post. I didn't start out with the assumption that there were "none."

I said that they hadn't released "multitudes of documents."

China and Russia are far more closed societies than the US -- as evidenced by the tiny number of pages on Wikileaks compared to the US.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. Enjoy the new goal post

Have a good day.

[pnwmom]

33. Just can't read, can you? n/t

[Floyd_Gondolli]

50. Careful

You'll end up on its "Iggy" list, that's where it puts all the people that disagree with it.

[Romulus Quirinus]

52. "it"? Really? nt

[NoOneMan]

17. Maybe the people with access to that info in China & Russia are better koolaiders

After all, spying and intrusion do fit along better with their cultural myth. On the other hand, it creates cognitive dissonance in the west, requiring very dedicated and/or deluded people to turn a blind eye. Maybe part of the western myth actually encourages martyrdom for that fake "greater good" we are all fighting for (but you know, not really).

[ZombieHorde]

18. Why do you think that is? nt

[Hekate]

20. Thanks pnwmom

Just, thanks

[progressoid]

37. Exactly. We should be more like Russia and China!!1!

[Spider Jerusalem]

38. Russia and China don't pretend to be open and transparent

and they don't talk about freedom and democracy while destabilising governments, sponsoring coups d'etat, and supporting authoritarian dictatorships. There aren't any whistleblowers in China and Russia...or there are very very few, compared to the USA...because unlike the USA China and Russia don't pretend they're anything but ruthless. The USA has whistleblowers because of people who are shocked, appalled and disgusted at discovering the difference between the way they've always been told things should be and the way they actually are.

[pnwmom]

40. So how does it help encourage more freedom to throw a monkey wrench

into our diplomatic efforts with those countries?

I'm not justifying all the surveillance going on inside the US. I'm objecting to Snowden releasing classified documents concerning our relations with China and Russia.

[geek tragedy]

39. Any rational person will tell you that, as imperfect as the US is, it's far more free and open

than China and Russia.

[pnwmom]

41. That's not the impression I've been getting around here lately. n/t

[geek tragedy]

42. Lots of hyperbole, but virtually no one here would have the gumption

to write that China allows greater freedom than the US does.

[JI7]

45. that's why some tried to push the "hong kong isn't china"

thing . and then we got this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023078738

[geek tragedy]

47. Awfully naive of people to think that

Hong Kong is really independent in its decision making.

[Skidmore]

51. Misplaces snarkiness.

That thread simply introduced an article for information.

[Humanist_Activist]

43. Do you complain that Wikipedia has a lot more English articles than every other language available?

You are basically complaining about the same thing here.

[pnwmom]

46. There's no reason they can't post pages in other languages.

So it's not the same issue.

[Humanist_Activist]

58. Of course there are reasons, Wikipedia started as an English language encyclopedia...

most users of it speak and read English fluently, and English is, for large parts of the internet, the standard due to the history of the Internet itself.

None of this is anyone's FAULT, because Wikipedia, just like Wikileaks, doesn't produce hardly any of its own content, they provide a service that allows users to generate or distribute content, no more, no less.

Wikipedia does have pages in many differently languages now, from popular to obscure, because of its users, however its still heavily lopsided in favor of English. Again, nothing about Wikis makes them NOT publish other content except their users.

[pnwmom]

59. Wikileaks is a separate entity. And Wikileaks has published pages

from Russia and China -- just a tiny number of them compared to the US.

[Humanist_Activist]

60. Wikileaks is a Wiki, wikis are a type of web site/publisher that allows others...

to edit or publish content on their servers, no more, no less. Wikileaks publishes pages in a similar way to Wikipedia, they do, just like Wikipedia does for controversial content, vet some of it before it is publicly available. But they are a means of distribution, if the content doesn't exist, or they don't have access to it(i.e. no one submits it), then its not going to be published by them.

[pnwmom]

61. I know what Wikileaks is. And I know it's capable of publishing in languages other than English.

The point I was making is that those countries Snowden has been flitting between are markedly more closed than ours -- and this is demonstrated by the fact that very little information from there has leaked to Wikileaks.

And now he's off to Ecuador, which is known for its lack of freedom of the press. Why would he choose that country? What does Snowden really believe in except for himself?

[Humanist_Activist]

62. I don't care, I just find your criticism of Wikileaks to be extraordinarily stupid and petty...

I was talking about Wikileaks in a vacuum, I frankly don't care about Snowden.

[pnwmom]

63. How was I criticizing Wikileaks? I was pointing out the relative closed-ness

of countries like China and Russia, which has resulted in very few leaks from these countries -- the ones Snowden has been running off to.

[JI7]

44. it just makes no sense, how are we to believe what he said ? he is so upset about civil rights in

the US , yet he goes to Chinese territory, Russia, even Ecuador isn't so great .

why didn't he go to Australia, Japan, France, UK, ?

[moke720]

64. True. Wikileaks can't get the info no matter how hard they would try. The leakers would be killed.

We have so many leaks because we are a free country and people are not assassinated for revealing top secret information or for publishing on it. There are so little leaks of actual documents from countries where protesting is punishable by deathsuch as China, or espionage as in the Russian informants involved in the Robert Hansen case, or they are shut down immediately as the Russian page I checked was. People in Russia and China would be giving their lives and probably the lives of their families to do this. Leaking all this stuff is a luxury of living in a society such as ours. I don't agree with the government collecting all this civilian data, but terrorism is a civilian war, so I am not surprised. Our foreign informants and CIA agents probably get killed before they can get much information. I still think Snowden should be thrown in prison and detained forever. He admitted what he did, throw away the key. And let Assange face his rape accuser. He is afraid of prison. Wimp. Let Russia have a crack at trying to slip some poison in his food. I don't know why Russia let this guy land there. They threatened Wikileaks if they would release a lot of info on them. Makes Russians look weak. Since he leaked more documents while in Russia, they could probably just throw Snowden in a Gulag. If a Russian did that of Russian information, a Gulag would be light punishment.