What is it about Edward Snowden that elicits a negative reaction from some people?

[Puzzledtraveller]

Last edited Mon Jun 24, 2013, 01:03 PM - Edit history (1)

I can't quite put my finger on it. The vast majority of DU'ers who are concerned and have voiced those concerns over the NSA have iterated time and again that it is the issues at hand and not Mr. Snowden that they give their support to. I do not know of anyone seriously concerned about the intelligence communities overstepping trying to deify Edward Snowden. I admit some people throw labels around, hero has been one but seriously, most of us are not concerned with Mr. Snowden one iota.

So why do some have such a visceral contempt for the man? Why do some still try to make this about him? When most of us have made it clear over and over again it's now about Edward Snowden?

title edited for LanternWaste.

[Harmony Blue]

1. It is viceral because it forces a paradigm shift

about how they view the world and how they are associated with the world. It creates chaos to their stratified and neatly defined world and it starts to become murky and clouded. Everything isn't as clear and it creates a defensive reaction.

[Puzzledtraveller]

3. that could very well be the crux of the matter.

[Kolesar]

2. Trolls know how to phrase their posts to get a reaction out of others

Hot words, loaded sentences, etc

[RobertEarl]

4. He stole Obama's pony!

[jimlup]

20. That one is funny

Sorry, I don't take glee in Obama's difficulties. I support him though from a left/libertarian perspective. But still that was funny.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Read what Harmony wrote, and there is more.

If you make it about Snowden then you can avoid talking of the issues. Why personalizing it is critical for those running the propaganda.

[UTUSN]

6. Allow me to clarify:

1) As a veteran, citizen, human, we were made to take an oath and we were told there would be consequences.

2) If you/he/ have a beef, file a complaint.

3) Don't trade with the enemy.

4) Loose lips sink ships.

5) Jane FONDA. (suffered more than he did)

6)

[think]

7. File a complaint? Like the other 3 NSA whistle blowers did? How'd that work out?

Seriously.....

[UTUSN]

9. So giving info to "others" is the answer. n/t

[RobertEarl]

19. What info did he give them?

We've been told time and again that we all knew the spy program has been going on for years and years. So it was public. Of course the foreigners knew too.

And, here's the question that everyone should ask: If Snowden had info that could severely damage the US, how did the US let him get into that position?

I doubt Snowden had any real top secret stuff. The press is just blowing that part up and has way too many of you barking up that tree.

But if you think he did have top secret stuff, you are accusing the Obama administration of being very very lax.

[GoneFishin]

29. Their real concern is that it is embarrassing, a waste of money, and more valuable as a blackmail

tool than a terrorism fighting tool.

And they want to keep doing it in the shadows. They don't like it when somebody threatens to expose it.

[karynnj]

42. His position and access give more credibility to his claims - even without documents

This is actually true even if he misstates - either because he lacks understanding or intentionally miscasts - what was done. (There I am arguing that it is entirely likely that someone designing the system or being the system administrator would NOT know exactly the purposes or the NON-COMPUTERIZED controls on the system. No matter how brilliant the system administrator is.) He is using his former access to embarrass the US internationally.

In doing so, he makes it harder for Obama and his administration on any international issue they are involved with. I KNOW that many here can list things we are doing they disagree with, but if we loss influence, others become comparatively more influential. Do you consider that Russia or China - overall - are more likely to want to move the world in directions you prefer?

[TheKentuckian]

12. That is the plan, Stan. They want it kept under wraps.

[ZombieHorde]

8. I don't agree with your position at this point in time,

but I like how simply you laid out the reasons for your opinions.

[marions ghost]

11. Thankfully

Snowden questioned what he had signed and had some kind of conscience. Unlike probably the majority of the people working for the NSA who knew exactly what they were doing and felt it was right. Those people who will sacrifice their principles for a twisted code of honor are not to be respected.

I think he went into it believing in it just as you did. But what he saw that is wrong--goes far beyond keeping America safe. It is a serious abuse of power. The American people did need to know what is being done in their name, and to them directly. We have all been treated like children.

Snowden acted on his conscience, and you have to have respect for that. Not everything in government or military service is cut and dried.

This needed to be out in the open.

[jimlup]

21. I seriously don't think he considers himself

an "American"... he didn't buy into the propaganda. For good or for bad he made a call based on his own perception of right and wrong. I'm sure it was a difficult one. You may disagree with it but honestly what is good for what the government calls "America" isn't necessarily good for Americans.

[UTUSN]

27. To Posts#s11& 21,oh so I (anybody who disagrees) don't have a conscienceANDbelieve (only) propaganda

I'm not the one running around saying this AIN'T ABOUT ME and claiming a desire for PRIVACY, yet exposing the poor ballerina.

AND, as a full Democrat who believes in social justice and civil liberties AND GOVERNMENT, if the government SPYING on all of us is such a threat how come "they" couldn't PROTECT US from SNOWDEN or CATCH him?!!!!!!1

[vdogg]

10. Well

For me personally, it's the fact that he gave specific intelligence information, down to ip addresses, with regards to U.S. hacking operations against the mainland and Hong Kong (as though the Chinese haven't been hacking us for years, I think a little retaliation was in order) to the Chinese. Furthermore, he also gave specific information to the Russian government with regards to us eavesdropping on then Russian President Dimitri Medvedev. The guy is an idiot. If you have a problem with the U.S. spying on other countries then don't join two intelligence agencies whose sole purpose is to spy on other countries. This is what we pay them to do. Mr. Snowden has a very naive world view if he doesn't believe that every country in the world does this. All this is not to say that I agree with the NSA spying on us, I don't. But people on this board tend to prop him up as a hero because of the info he released on domestic spying and conveniently leave out the fact that he is giving secrets about foreign operations to those very nations. And it seems as though if anyone dare mention a bad word about Snowden they are shouted down and called a Cheney supporter or worse. It's all become quite ridiculous. This is not a black and white issue.

[karynnj]

43. I agree - and have been told that Rove etc agree with me - even though I have posted here for years

However, those years have shown me that DU culture heroes come and go - and it is likely that the same will happen with Snowden. Thow in that there are a lot of left libertarians here.

[treestar]

13. Seriously?

I don't think anyone is driven crazy by him. He has fans too, why don't you call them out for their obsession?

People seem amazed they are not agreed with all the time.

I've seen a lot more extreme language from those on his side.

[Puzzledtraveller]

15. I do not think those that idolize him help either but they haven't been making all

post's trying to make it ALL about him all the while ignoring the issues.

[karynnj]

44. Might be that you are giving the benefit of the doubt to them and not those troubled

As to issues, someone in favor of him who mentioned what he did - is considered to be speaking of the issues.

Someone who comments that someone, who takes a job with the CIA and the NSA, and then UNILATERALLY opts to release classified information to the media and to countries often seen as our enemies, is likely not acting in our interests is considered to be attacking him and not speaking of the "issues". Now, there are times when whistleblowers need to go public - but note that he did not go through any of the reasonable options. As some pointed out, why not take this to Rand Paul, who would have clearance?

The fact is that NOTHING on the telephone records differed from what was said in the Senate and House in 2007 when it was debated - ON CSPAN.

[flamingdem]

22. Well said. Those in favor of Snowden jumped to his defense so quickly

and that defense included full on attacks against those who would question him.

I went from 3 ignores to 28 a few days ago, probably higher now!

[sibelian]

14. I think it's just a generalised sense of having been thwarted.

Look at how many reasons for their they've come up with, every time it's pointed out how ludicrous their positions are they just shift to a new one.

Do you know what it reminds me of? Fundamentalist Christians trying to justify homophobia. You never actually get to what the real beef is, one minute it's AIDS, the next it's not procreating, then it's promiscuity, then it's like paedophila, then it's like bestiality... on and on and on.

They're annoyed with not winning the first time round, basically.

[Puzzledtraveller]

16. You nailed it

I was just thinking that earlier too. I was thinking, just how many deflections have we seen so far. They are always shifting, I think that's what creeped some of us out here too.

[vdogg]

18. Do you find my position ludicrous?

Please see post number 10. It bothers me that he gave information to foreign governments about spying operations in their countries. I was really hoping for a response from puzzled traveller but I'll ask you as well. I don't view this as some game, I honestly think this man has done some real damage to our national security. Do you think it was appropriate for him to release this information? If so, why?

[RobertEarl]

23. Why was a private contractor privvy to such info?

Seems you have pointed out a failure of the NSA to properly conceal its activities.

But really, the incidental info about isps or whatever are something the other state's intelligence probably already knew.

But let's say it did cause great damage. Then what you are claiming is that the Obama administration made a big mistake allowing such info to get into the hands of a private contractor.

[vdogg]

25. You won't get any arguments from me on this one.

It simply boggles my mind how some 29 year old high school dropout got access to so much classified information. It's beyond stupid, it's negligent and Bozo Allen needs to be held accountable. As a general rule, we shouldn't be entrusting contractors with highly classified info anyway. I only work for the power company. I had to have a college degree and 7 year background check before they let me in the door. I just don't understand how he slipped through.

[RobertEarl]

26. I don't consider it to be that big a deal

I doubt he had much important, new info.

The story is being blown up by the m$m because what Snowden really did is expose a story that our press should have been harping about all along.

Look what the head of AP is saying: The spying has really hurt his news gathering and damaged the free press. Snowden is just the messenger that our press should have been.

[Recursion]

33. Was he?

Seriously. What of this info did he actually get while at Booz Allen Hamilton vs. his time as a direct CIA employee? Do you know? I don't. The initial PowerPoint seemed to come from Booz Allen (and seemed to be orientation material), but what about the rest?

[sibelian]

34. Ah, well...

I'm not from the United States.



I think your position's understandable, I just don't share it. I'm from the UK and I want my country disconnected strategically from yours. I don't think you're good for us. The UK's name has gone through the mud along with America's what with the beating up weaker nations and everything. Bad for my emotional well-being, see. I used to like being British.

So, yeah, you're not really in any position but to oppose his taking your country's secrets to other countries, I entirely appreciate that... but as America has no business spying on me or any of the rest of its "allies" I don't give much of a shit when someone like Snowden rats on the States. It's me he's ratting to, you see?

And I like that.

You won't, of course. But it's okay. I know you're not a position to give up your country's right to spy on me. It makes you look unAmerican.

[Puzzledtraveller]

37. Those governments already know

Nothing revealed was not already known by those foreign entities, what was revealed was the extent of the surveillance on Americans as well as joint surveillance with other agencies foreign and domestic which circumvented the constitution as well as place citizens (not the governments) of other countries under surveillance further violating the freedoms granted to them by their respective constitutions and law.

[CakeGrrl]

17. The visceral contempt I've seen

has been toward those who suggest he did anything but make a noble sacrifice for his country.

The only thing I have to say about the guy is that he should go to jail. He stole documents from his employer and he's peddling them to foreign countries. He's evading the consequences of his actions.

[backscatter712]

31. You'll excuse me if I find character assassination to be completely repugnant.

Yes, there's a reason for my visceral contempt. Because viciously smearing someone like that is fucking disgusting. Because claiming he's peddling documents to foreign countries with zero evidence is even more disgusting.

He gave those documents to Glenn Greenwald, not the Chinese government. If you're spewing accusations, and providing zero evidence to back them up, that just makes you completely fucking vile.

[Scurrilous]

24. Crazy in love?

I don't get that either...

[Union Scribe]

28. It really is visceral isn't it?

The words they use in condemning Snowden reflect an incomprehensible personal loathing for him.

[tavalon]

30. I'll give it a try. There is a personality called the whistleblower personality

People with that personality tell truths, truths that cause them to lose jobs, sometimes their freedom, even their lives. It's a pretty rare personality to have, one that is guided by a due north compass of morality. People who don't possess that kind of personality seem to think they are being looked down upon for not having the guts to give it all up for truth. People aren't in fact being accused of that but I think that may be some of what we're seeing.

I have that sort of personality but when I had a child, I chose to live a life that was, for me, duplicitous. I no longer speak up about the things I see that should be spoken up about because I have a child to protect. It's no longer just me. Notice the three most well known whistleblowers are single.

Anyway, just my thoughts. In a word, envy. Envy can make for viciously mean people.

[mhatrw]

32. I loathe ANYONE who breaks a nondisclosure agreement or who has a bad credit score.

[datasuspect]

35. no one ever wants to face they were a willing participant

in a big rip off.

[Apophis]

36. He'd be hailed as a hero if he would've done this under Bush.

[allin99]

45. without a doubt.

[allin99]

38. b/c what he did gave their man a hard time...

and they're about 1 man in govt and about the party. it's the same vitriol i mentioned when Corey Booker said something not in obama's favor. And of all people to hate on, Corey Booker... smh. Anyone who defies obama gets eviscerated, so the real question is what is it about Obama that drives people to this.

i understand being attached, i've been campaigning for dems for over 2 decades, but this is wild. ESPECIALLY when it's regarding a cause people have been FOR (privacy rights, etc) the entire time. I like h clinton, but when she acts like a hawk, i'm callin' her a hawk. when she doe something else i'm not keen on, i'm not gonna hate her guts, i'm gonna throw her a boo, say it sucks, remember it and call it a night. i like B clinton, when does something i don't like, i'm gonna say it and adjust my schemata. When Mario Cuomo used to...well, he's perfect, nev mind. lol. But no matter what, i coulda still seen a point even if it makes my guy look bad. This is insane.

or it could be what politics just boils down to these days because we've bought into the cult of personality, good vs. evil and vitriol fed by party propoganda in order for THEM to win elections. Still never seen it reach this level.

[LanternWaste]

39. I've seen many opinions... some even passionate about the young man.

I've seen many opinions... some even passionate about the young man. I have though, to see anyone go crazy over it.

I do understand however, the need for many people to over-dramatize the position of others to imply a more stolid and critical position of their own.

"I admit some people throw labels around..." 'Crazy' is another one.


"most of us are not concerned with Mr. Snowden one iota..." Hence this post. About Mr. Snowden.

[Puzzledtraveller]

40. Show me where I called someone crazy?

Drving people crazy is not calling someone crazy. I could have used another word, shall I edit it for you?

[karynnj]

41. Look at the hundreds of threads about him - even just today

Count the number of replies defending him - and if you want sub tally those calling him a hero and those not going that far.

Count those that argue against him - again sub tally those that "show visceral contempt" for him.

Looking at the treads, I see FAR MORE defending him than arguing that he was wrong - even if the mildest possible negative ones are counted. I don't know what you consider visceral contempt for him. If I took that to mean considering him as many do Bush/Cheney, there are not that many. I also think that it is his actions that are being attacked.

I think what is happening is that DU has never been really just Democratic (underground). Given when it developed, there is a large core of people who are more accurately Libertarian. The overlap of most left leaning Democrats on social issues and especially on war has meant that it is issues like this that create the split here.

[randome]

46. His resume is a lie.

He said he "saw things" but never specified what he saw.

As a Systems Administrator, he was never in a position to "see things" in the first place.

He said he wasn't in Hong Kong to hide from justice.

Everything he's released so far has been ho-hum. Hard to see him as a self-sacrificing whistleblower who went on the run to tell us that there is a legal warrant for collection of phone metadata and that we spy on the Chinese.

He and Greenwald were speaking in February, before he started with Booz Allen, so they apparently had this planned from the start.

He is giving away national security secrets to China.

There is very little to admire about the man and any vitriol you see is likely a reaction to those hailing him as a hero for exposing...what, exactly? All we have to go on so far are his claims not backed up by evidence.

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