Hong Kong's Incredible Official Statement on Snowden's Departure

[Ichingcarpenter]

The statement issued today regarding Edward Snowden's departure from Hong Kong, directed both toward the U.S. government and the world, is remarkable.

For not only does it contain a clear rejection of America's attempt to extradite Snowden, but it also rejects America's surveillance reach and the NSA's hacking of Hong Kong.

I present it below:

Mr Edward Snowden left Hong Kong today (June 23) on his own accord for a third country through a lawful and normal channel.
The US Government earlier on made a request to the HKSAR Government for the issue of a provisional warrant of arrest against Mr Snowden. Since the documents provided by the US Government did not fully comply with the legal requirements under Hong Kong law, the HKSAR Government has requested the US Government to provide additional information so that the Department of Justice could consider whether the US Government's request can meet the relevant legal conditions. As the HKSAR Government has yet to have sufficient information to process the request for provisional warrant of arrest, there is no legal basis to restrict Mr Snowden from leaving Hong Kong.

The HKSAR Government has already informed the US Government of Mr Snowden's departure.

Meanwhile, the HKSAR Government has formally written to the US Government requesting clarification on earlier reports about the hacking of computer systems in Hong Kong by US government agencies. The HKSAR Government will continue to follow up on the matter so as to protect the legal rights of the people of Hong Kong.


http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/23/1218140/-Hong-Kong-s-Incredible-Statement-on-Snowden

[CrazyJudy]

1. this will be another bad episode for the administration n/t

[FreakinDJ]

3. Yep - they drank the Bush/Cheney Kool-Aid on this one

[nineteen50]

8. Obama joined the neo-cons they never left

Washington.

[zeemike]

12. Yep...that is exactly right.

They long ago captured our government...and Obama had to join them or else IMHO.

[loudsue]

21. That's what I think too.

But if you remember what he said early in his national campaign for 2008, "Joe LIEberman has been my friend and MENTOR " . You don't get Joe Lieberman for a friend and mentor if you lean to the left.

[warrant46]

60. Old Joe, a feckless Boot Lick

feck·less
/ˈfeklis/
Adjective

1. (of a person) Lacking in efficiency or vitality.
2. Unthinking and irresponsible.

[leveymg]

80. Okay. How do we define "Boot Lick"?

Whose boots? Hob nailed? Spikes on their helmets or horns? Cliche much?

[glinda]

47. His only hope would be to make a clear break from the Conservatives

by rejecting their ideologies, past Programs and transferring good Dems to positions held by Republicans as well as reject the insane notion of "compromise".

[SHRED]

103. LOL...as if...

[silvershadow]

108. Won't happen. It's too late for that anyway. He missed the boat. He missed the target.

He shot his wad worrying about re-election, instead of doing the right thing for the country. IMHO

[roguevalley]

32. and they earned it. When hong kong has more respect for their people than us, we are fucked.

[Shivering Jemmy]

35. You are kidding yourself

If you believe Hong Kong has more respect for its citizens than we do.

[dkf]

51. Is Hong Kong collecting every bit of info on their citizens?

What could be less respectful than that?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

53. You are missing the whole point....

We saw this same game during the Cold War.

The Soviets LOVED IT when a U2 pilot could be trotted before the whole world so they could play the victim.

[Savannahmann]

106. And by the same token, the Americans love to be the bad guy

Congress would be screaming about acts of war if the Chinese or the Russians did half of what we do constantly. Undersea wiretaps, spy planes, listening posts, spy subs and the rest of the debacle.

Can you imagine the outrage if Soviet planes were flying over the US?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

107. They'd be redundant considering we spy on ourselves....

....and for all we know,....share the shit...

[robbob]

105. Depends who you mean by "we"

If you mean the 1%, the powers that be, then I would say they both have about the same amount of respect for their citizens.

[Harmony Blue]

34. I am inclined to agree

they seemingly have to come back to reality at some point.

[Daniel537]

2. Love it.

A nice big FU to our govt. that still pretends to be the world's policeman and owner of the high ground.

[malaise]

4. The US lost all credibility and moral standing after Iraq

The world is not completely stupid. Pushing the view that only American citizens have the right to privacy is the last straw for the rest of humanity.

Thank Bush and Cheney for believing that the Magna Carta could be shreded over 9/11 and thank everyone who supported that madness.

[nineteen50]

10. And anointing ourselves

exceptional is surely not the way to win friends.

[HardTimes99]

15. I don't know how one would document or prove your assertion. I would say most of

our credibility and moral standing had evaporated in the rice paddies of southeast Asia, where the body count reached 2-3 million, by some estimates. What little was left after Vietnam perished in the small villages of El Salvador and Nicaragua. By the time of Iraq, we were the evil empire, with neither credibility nor moral standing left and only brute, naked power and utter contempt for international law remaining.

Still, Bush and Cheney were our Caligula. Or is that Nero? Can't keep my cast of villainsous Roman Emperor douche-nozzles straight

Points to you, though, for remembering and mentioning the Magna Carta! Bravo!

[malaise]

18. Very few of us focused on Vietnam or the

Central American madness.
Truth is that there were/are aspects of American democracy that were worthy of admiration.
Indeed leaking and whistle blowing are part of them.
Snowden is of no importance to me but if Wikileaks and other leakers (including him) expose the attempts to destroy the constitution and freedom as we know it, bring em on.

Obama still can change some of this madness and his legacy is partly in his hands. He has to stop pussyfooting with ReTHUGs and the 1%.

[HardTimes99]

23. You are far more optimistic than I (belying your handle :) - certainly

Last edited Sun Jun 23, 2013, 05:52 PM - Edit history (2)

the world in 2008 still wanted to believe in America, witness Obama's reception at the Brandenburg Gate.

I'm with you about 'bring em on.' Snowden has the same importance to me as Ellsberg would have had, had I been old enough then to understand what was at stake.

Based on some reporting we read on Friday and yesterday, my wife and I sadly have begun to conclude that even Obama may have fallen victim to this NSA Leviathan. If true, one shudders to think what 'dirt' the spooks and Bush boys might have dug up on Obama or his wife to blackmail them with. But such might explain his ongoing "pussyfooting with ReTHUGS and the 1%".

[GoneFishin]

95. I thought Kerry threw in the towel inexplicably prematurely. Maybe Gore also.

[HardTimes99]

98. Paranoia will destroy ya - maybe I'm going to have

to do what your screen handle suggests

[warrant46]

113. He has to stop pussyfooting with ReTHUGs and the 1%.--- Your Quote

Doesn't look like that will happen very soon

[dixiegrrrrl]

26. I like your thinking.

I got lost thru a series of left turns in 1968, never could find my way back to "The Real America" despite Raygin's addled attempts to make it sound enticiing.

[HardTimes99]

30. I once read (or heard) Daniel Ellsberg say that America would not truly

heal from Vietnam until a monument was erected to the anti-war protesters on the Mall in D.C. That comment has stuck with me through the years, even as Bush pere claimed he had kicked the Vietnam Syndrome "once and for all" in 1990. Famous last words . . .

FYI: I'd forgotten that Reagan coined the phrase "Vietnam Syndrome". Wiki makes for some very interesting reading indeed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_Syndrome

[tiny elvis]

72. chomsky said merca claims renewal and absolution every few years

nam was forgotten with morning in merca

[HardTimes99]

75. Gore Vidal called it "The United States of Amnesia." Vidal's voice

will be missed!

[Diclotican]

48. HardTimes99

HardTimes99

I think you got both emperors - Nero and Caligula in Bush and Cheney - but it is difficult to say who is who - as both Bush and Cheney was rather bad... Even though I suspect maybe Cheney was Caligula and Bush was Nero.. At least Nero had some attributes to him, who was "kind".. Caligula was just pure evil - and was not afraid of showing off his his attitude to the rest of the world... But then he had been in the school of Tiberius, who on his old ages had some nasty demons who was starting to eat him alive... And to be young, and fearfully man like Caligula was - when the Emperor was in the same room, was not the best way to get a grasp about what an emperor was all about...

But as we also know - both Caligula and Nero got what they deserved in the end... Caligula was killed off by his own bodyguard - who was fearfully for his own life after some funny business - and Nero was killed by his own slave - after the Roman Senate had told the world - and the empire he could be killed.... Not that Nero believed he was in danger - before the Senate Finlay got enough with his mismanagement of the empire... But it is also known - that the first couple of years in Nero's reign was rather pleasant - as the real power was in the hand of his trustees - and they managed the empire well...


Diclotican

[HardTimes99]

52. Thanks for those details. It's been a long time (> 30 years) since I

studied or read much on the Roman Empire. I knew of Nero's reputation for foolery and of Caligula's rep for absolute cruelty, but beyond that have forgotten much. May have to check Gibbon out of the library now

[Diclotican]

86. HardTimes99

HardTimes99

You can learn allot about modern politic - by reading who the roman empire was run - that be in the time of the Roman Republic - or in the time of the Roman Empire... It was a rather brutal time - who you either was the one killing - or the one being killed. The republic - and then roman empire had great politicians - who could ruin their opponent by real, or believed evidences - if they wast not to cruel they could at least let them survive - in a fashion - if they do not wanted to let them survive - the roman elite, could ruin you down to your own cloth by suing the hell out of you..

And the roman emperors - at least in the time of Nero - was all part of the same elite - who for the most part, have connection to Augustus - who had made the empire possible, by crushing his enemies - and build a new Empire on the ruins of the great Republic who had outlived them selfs by egoism... The Republic was perfect for a little state, build around a City, and where all the citizens had a say in how things was running.. But as the Republic started to be bigger - and the soldiers had to be on for a long time - even years the whole system of having a say in the governing was also lost.. And as the wealth of the east was starting to sip into the Roman elite -the whole system got corrupt - and more and more of the Republic was starting to be the playground of the rich and powerfully - or the ones who had power - but who wanted wealth.. In the time of Julius Casar, the whole Republic was starting to die - under the burden of their own success - and under the burden of the elite who was not able - or willing to understand what was needed of reforms of the Republic..

In the end - the roman empire was made possible, by the doings of the roman elite - specially the republicans, who had made it impossible to make the necessary reforms - and to repair the damage from the civil wars in the 150 years before Octavian Julius Casar - the later Augustus - in 31 managed to destroy his opponents - and regin supreme in the whole of the roman empire...

And in the more than 500 year of the Roman Empire (from the time of Augustus to the time of Romulus Augustulus ) great emperors should rule the whole empire and have a whole world in its hand - and many horrible, terrible insane emperors should also have a say about the future of the roman empire.. Some would make the name of the Roman Empire known - and feared long away from the roman borders - some would do their best to wreck any respect the "barbarians" might have had about the roman empire..

Nero was maybe a fool in the governing of the empire - but as long as he accepted the governing of his advisor's -and was more busy being some of a playboy on the throne the roman empire was ruled rather well - and the treasures was full of resources - and the roman population - both in Italy (who from the time of Augustus, to the time of Constantine the great, was not even paying any taxes to the roman treasure) and abroad in the provinces had a rather peacefully time - even with the outbreak of civil wars - who often started when ambitious generals was finding out - an emperor could be started other places than in Rome.. And many of the greater emperors, specially after the civil wars of the AD 70ths was successfully won by generals, who was able to muster the necessary resources to win most of the empire for them self - and to make claim to the roman capital.. If you had claim to the roman Capital - you also had the right to be the roman emperor... Most of this mess - who seldom managed to get a peacefully transition from one emperor, to another was in the system Augustus himself had made possible.. He made possible a empire, with an emperor on top - in the color of an Republic - in the first 150 year of the roman empire - the emperors itself was just the first of equals - he was not the supreme leader - and the emperors who believed to be above the law - as set by the Senate itself, was often make them self enemies of either the elite - or the population.. Even as most emperors understood the necessarily of having the population in Rome on their side... Caligula and Nero understood the necessarily of spoiling the plebes in Rome - and spoiled they got - even as Caligula was cruel against most, specially his own family and parts of the roman elite - he was known to love young, beautifully woman - who often was married to other. And they often had the "pleasure" of been told of the vices - or the attitudes of their woman, when the emperor have had sex with them... And he also was a cruel man - who had the habit of using brutal methods, if he was not able to do as he pleased...

You might have to check out Gibbons - and many others who have written books about the roman emperors over the years - it looks like many is still rather interested in the roman empire - and the roman emperors even though it are many years since the roman empire has been dead and ancient history... I believe you Will find a lot of "new" information about the roman empire if you ask a local library about it - and you can learn allot from the past, for the present I suspect too...

I have the habit on reading allot, maybe the reason I remember about it sometimes - even though it is a long time since I really did a great study about the roman empire and specially the times of Caligula and Nero... It was interesting times - where the roman empire was at it greatest - even though it could grow to the largest at the time of Nerva, Traian and Hadrian, Antonius Pius, Lucius Verus? Marcus Aurelius, Commondus (who also was a Caligula on the throne, just far worse!)

After that time - a lot of emperors would follow the one after the one - at one time - 50 emperors would in turn be killed by the other - until the time of Diocletian - who kind of was able to recover the empire - even if it also was making some sacrifices who in turn would ruin the whole system - the west and east would tear itself apart - and the West forever be the weak link, where the emperors had fewer and fewer tools to defend itself against enemies - and in the end, it all ended rather pitifully, when the last emperor, a 14 year old boy was asked to leave - or else by barbarians - and was lost to the mist of history.. Some says he was killed by order a few years after the facts - other sources say he lived out his life in peacefully retirement - with a rather handsome "retirement gifts" and was a scholar in old ancient roman history - at least, we do not know what really happened with the last roman emperor of the western part of the roman empire.. In the Eastern part, it would continue more or less till the 1450s - the last emperor was killed in battle when the ottomans was breaching the walls around Constantinople in 1453.. Gibbons had no love for the late byzantine empire - even if newer schollars have documented that the byzantine empire - was a vibrant empire - all up to the end - even if it was more down than ups in the last 150-200 year of the byzantine empire, it was still a vibrant empire - who could show of a lot of wealth... And for the Western Europe - the end of the Byzantine Empire, was a shock - as Bysantine had been there for more than 1000 years - but it also was given the rest of the Europe - specially Italy and parts of Europe - the nessesary kick to get a hands on the wealth of knowlegde who had been inside the walls of Constantinople.. And Europe of today had not been nessesary if it had not been for the wealth of knowlegde the Bysantine gave the rest of the world - after the empire was dead...

And all up to WW2, the idea of an emperor who ruled all of Europe was still a magical idea for many politicans - Hitler was just one of the latest one to dream about an empire in Europe -and in the World at large... Even though he used metodes I doubt even Caligulia would condone.... But then again - the issue of Hitler, is a whole different thing, than the roman empire..

Diclotican

[Jarla]

87. I enjoyed this brief history lesson. Thanks! :) n/t

[Diclotican]

89. Jarla

Jarla

You'r welcome History is intersting -and a lot of fun if you know what you are writing about

Diclotican

[heaven05]

115. thanks

[JDPriestly]

64. Thanks.

"Caligula was killed off by his own bodyguard - who was fearfully for his own life after some funny business - and Nero was killed by his own slave - after the Roman Senate had told the world - and the empire he could be killed.... "

And so it is with our governments when they try to be too smart. They are sabotaged by those they believe are their servants. This NSA scandal -- the fact of the ubiquitous surveillance -- could end a lot of political careers me thinks.

[Diclotican]

79. JDPriestly

JDPriestly

Be afraid of the men who have the weapons to kill you - if you are on the top....

And I suspect the US government should be carefully about NSA, who should be their servants - not their masters - as in the old Soviet union, where the NKVD and then KGB was the sword of the party - and the defender of the nation - was made possible, by fearfully men who believed they needed someone to defend them selfs agings enemies abroad and inside the Union... As it was - the NKVD, and then the KGB was making them self master of the Soviet Union - sometimes in concert with the leaders - mostly against them - they could make you a leader - or make you a traitor who deserved to be killed - after torture....

What is happening in the US this days - is like looking at the blueprint for other regimes - like the regime of Stalin - or the regime of Hitler, or many other regimes, who used and use the security system to defend them self against enemies - true or just in their fantasy of the NSA.. The NSA have powers that even Berjia of the NKVD, or Himmler of the SS RHSA, SD and so one could just dream about in the days.... And even then, if it goes down the bad way - I doubt NSA would have any power to stop if. They might tell you that they have stooped many terrorist attack with all the spying on everyone - but in fact, they are not exactly showing any interest in protecting the US population do they with the killings of civilians by gun- nuts - or by bombing of places like in the Boston Marathon....

And I suspect they will have a lot of documents - to blackmail possible politic ans - documents that might be used to evelate them to great powers - or to ruin their life... If they do not play by the rules..

Hopefully the US do not need to learn it the same way the rest of the world have learned it - but I fear the US have to learn it the hard way - mostly because it looks like most americans believe they are not in any danger... You will ALWAYS be in danger - for been used by secrets services that is the reason most country's keep and eye on what they do - all the time, because you can not trust secrets services to mutch... You need oversight form civilian masters

Diclotican

[JDPriestly]

81. Thank you, Diclotican.

You are a student of history, and I suspect you have personal experience with this. Every word you wrote is so true, but Americans think they are somehow immune for the infection that has destroyed every democracy thus far (not saying the Soviet Union was every really a democracy) -- hunger for power and the desire to secure that power at the cost of democratic institutions. Spying is a part of the expression of the hunger for power.

[Diclotican]

88. JDPriestly

JDPriestly

I believe it is important - to study history - to learn about the past - and the possible future of the world - Hunger for power - and the need to secure the power, on the cost of institutions who should defend us all against misuse and bad treatement... It is always a fight between the ones who would dominate - and the ones who would respect democratic institutions, and use the system as best, for as many as posible...

I am not sure I have to much personal experience with it - but I do have been in places - (eastern europe before the wall was coming down) and I think I might have learned a few things about how it could be -living in a authoritarian country - or outright a dictatorship - even as I was able to leave after the Holiday was over.. And I was lucky enough to have many in the family who have experienced WW2 and who was able to at least tell some stories about how it was when Germany was here - and ruled as they was seeing fit.. (It was not that bad as in many other nations - but bad enough for Norway)..

Many if not most americans believe they are immune against falling for a person, or organizations who will make US into a dictatorship - even as everything is showing the opposite.. The last 12-15 years, since 2000 had not been positive for the US....

Diclotican

[JDPriestly]

100. Again, thanks.

[Melinda]

92. You've brought me to tears. Oh, how I fear for my children, for my country!

I burst into tears after reading your contributions on this thread. History teaches, and people ignore teachings at their own peril. These are scary times, and your words are impactful to me- hopefully others reading here will absorb, and heed, histories warning. Thank you for your posts.

[Diclotican]

96. Melinda

Melinda

I'm sorry I have given you any grief - that was not the purpose of this at all - but I also fear for the future, as it are not looking to well if you know something from the past - you can at least look into the Crystal ball - and grasp some for the future..

History teaches a lot - but it looks like many have no interest in the past - or ignorant about the past, as it have no interest for them at all.. Our generation have all the experience of more than 10.000 year at our hand - the only thing we need - is to listen to our ancestors, and learn from their mistakes.. That be in ancient times as int he Roman Empire - or the last 80-100 year when some have tried to make things better - and some have tried their best to make it worse - even with the best of intentions....

It have been scary times - at least since 2000, when GWB got "elected" and the introduction of the Patriot Act, and all the other tools to a dictatorship... And even GWB is known, to have said "it would be better to govern - if I had been the dictator"... Rather intriguing saying from a american President...


Hopefully you and me - and our ancestors will live in a better world than ours - and hopefully our nightmares, our bad dreams will just be that - dreams about the future, who was not happening

Diclotican

[arcane1]

65. We left quite a bit of credibility in the Philippines before that

That is, whatever moral standing we had left after centuries of slavery.

[HardTimes99]

67. Yes, but we got points for fighting fascism in WW2 (including 'liberating'

the Phillipines from Imperial Japan).

If you want to get all technical, there's the little matter of the land grab that preceded those "centuries of slavery." Don't think we've expunged our karmic debt for that one quite yet

[arcane1]

68. LOL Indeed, we should stick to the mid-1900's to the present, for our own sake

[HardTimes99]

85. Our jesting aside, there is a serious question of 'first cause' embedded

within. I prefer to start the counter at 1945 and measure from there. But your earlier post quite rightly suggests we could just as well start the counter far earlier and to the U.S.' distinct disadvantage in the exceptionalism sweepstakes.

[heaven05]

114. +1000

[xtraxritical]

16. Thank Blair and the UK especially.

[malaise]

44. Why?

They are also to blame

[Theoted]

38. Right on!

Rebuilding our credibility will take a long time.

[KoKo]

5. Recommend...

[East Coast Pirate]

6. Would the U.S. gov. stomping its feet

and holding its breath until it turns blue help?

Plan B: A sweet deal for Putin.

[MannyGoldstein]

7. Scurrilous racist dogs

I'd think that reports of Snowden being an uncheerful neighbor would be proof positive to the Hong Kongians that there was no hacking.

I don't think a white President would be disrespected in this way.

[Zorra]

33. And besides that, Kos is well known as a progressive website, and has no standing as a credible

source on DU anymore.

The "real truth" will be posted here as soon as Third Way HQ releases the "Memo to staff - re: Snowden Departure".

Snowden is probably sharing caviar, brandy, and cigars at the Charlie Chaplin Memorial Chinese National Communist Party Ballroom in Beijing as I write this!

[Divernan]

40. The 3rd Way response: Hong Kong officials are nasty racists!

That will be the 3rd Way team leader's response, closely followed by the #2 bot's comment along the lines of "Yeah! And . . . and . . . and they're just poopy-heads, too!"

I'm torn about feeling sorry for these mindless defenders. On the one hand, the positions they are told to take are increasingly irrational and embarrassingly fascist; on the other hand, their job security improves with every passing White House decision.

[Zorra]

49. I'm forced to admire their bold, adamant persistence, despite the fact that basically everyone here

knows that they are bald face transparently lying through their teeth, and are at the same time incredulous that anyone could ever be naive enough to fall for their silly bullshit propaganda.

Of course, they are anonymous here, so no one in real life would know that they are all working tirelessly to sabotage our democracy on a daily basis,

[GoneFishin]

97. Hey. Jobs are hard to come by these days.

You do what you have to, to put food on your family.

[summer-hazz]

104. I agree

No more third way or Centrist BS,,
I want a Democrat in office!

[jsr]

39. Highly un-American and disrespectful of the President, indeed

It's time for Congress to cut off all foreign aid to Hong Kong.

[HardTimes99]

56. Ha-ha, I can already hear the debate over "Who lost Hong Kong?" starting :) - nt

[Th1onein]

41. lolololol

[whttevrr]

9. Oops... I hate when that happens.

[Earth_First]

11. "...the documents provided by the US Government did not fully comply with the legal requirements"

Is anyone surprised?

[dixiegrrrrl]

27. Actually, Hong Kong has NO extradition with USA

and is in the midst of developing/revising its extraditon policy.
I read about that this last week, sorry I cannot remember the source, ( Pro PUblica???)
but the article was talking about why Snowden was safe in Hong Kong.

[muriel_volestrangler]

13. It's pretty much what I'd expect - what was 'incredible'?

Hong Kong and China are not close allies of the USA. So they do not agree with the USA about things, and when criticised by the USA, they make criticisms in return. They took the opportunity of imperfect extradition paperwork to allow Snowden out of Hong Kong, thus meaning he's Somebody Else's Problem. What is 'stunning' about that?

Extradition requests not being good enough happens a lot:
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/kim-dotcom-could-be-safe-from-extradition-by-us-authorities-until-2014/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10601930

[Nanjing to Seoul]

14. In a weird way, I like it when the world sticks it to the US. Kind of makes up a little for the

Cold War bullying our government did to the rest of the war post 1945.

I kind of enjoy that middle finger sometimes. It's the reason the US Government hated Chavez.

[HardTimes99]

17. Got to speak up on behalf of my peeps. 'Cold War bullying' yes, but also

Marshall Plan. (George C. Marshall, a truly great military and political figure by just about any standard!)

[Nanjing to Seoul]

25. I'm an American and the Marshall Plan had numerous strings attached

[HardTimes99]

57. Can you imagine what America's reputation would be in the world, were we to

come up with a Marshall Plan for Iraq? Or keep the promises Nixon made to the Vietnamese in 1974? Or a Marshall Plan for Nicaragua and other Latin American countries where we have a sordid legacy?

Yeah, there were strings attached. But on balance, the Marshall Plan was an awesome thing, imo.

[ReRe]

102. I have imagined...

... of what you speak. The US alone could have saved the world. We could be that line in the poem "shining city on a hill" that politicians love to quote. We DID do the right thing after WWII with the Marshall Plan. So many things could be different about our lives here in America and about the lives of billions of people all over the world had we not taken the wrong turn. Tell me I am wrong by blaming it on Harry Truman for the wrong turn (NOT.) Yeah, maybe there would have been another President who would have signed those documents, creating the CIA and the NSA. Probably Ronald Reagan or GHWB. But maybe not. Maybe our Presidents would have been competing from then on, on who could make the world a better place, instead of ... well I will stop there.

History tells a story.

[L0oniX]

19. Elated ...and i hope Europe and Russia bites them too.

Odd that I am cheering for other countries ...it's a result of my own country not representing me anymore.

[frazzled]

20. Off to Moscow, where freedom is really free!

No spying there, eh? Just don't be a journalist who tweaks Putin's ego, however, or you'll find yourself quite, quite dead.

This story is getting more ironic by the minute. Snowden seems to have reignited the Cold War in one fell swoop. Congratulations.

List of Journalists killed in Russia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia

[morningfog]

22. Love it.

[Posteritatis]

24. That's the politest way of saying "fuck off, State Department" I've seen in ages. (nt)

[Liberal_in_LA]

90. agreed

Agreed

[Hubert Flottz]

28. Confucius say...

"Kiss My Hong Kong Dong!"

[Catherina]

29. The US revoked Snowden's passport. LMAO!

Akiko Fujita ?@AkikoFujita 2m

#Snowden's US passport revoked on Saturday 6/22. Senior US official tells @ABC: "We have little idea how he left Hong Kong"

https://twitter.com/AkikoFujita/status/348824572243628033

https://twitter.com/WilliamsJon/statuses/348825711454339072

ABC reports that Snowden's passport was revoked on Saturday, leaving US officials even more baffled as to how he was allowed to fly out from Hong Kong. It is, however, unlikely to be a problem for Russia – if Snowden is in transit and never leaves the airport, his immigration status is not Moscow's issue.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/global/2013/jun/23/edward-snowden-leaves-hong-kong-moscow-live#block-51c716eee4b0852763cb4d1c

[dixiegrrrrl]

36. as if a piece of paper could keep him frozen in one place...

Fun watching other countries diss the good ole US of A....
even more fun watching the US of A standing around clueless in slackjawed shock at the comeuppance.

[Catherina]

45. I'm slackjawed at our arrogance, slackjawed that he rattled so much

that we're absolutely tone deaf to what fools we're making of ourselves. Well the government that is. Confirming its hypocrisy while the whole world is watching lol.

And yes, I'm enjoying watching people tell us to butt out, it's a human rights affair.

[FarCenter]

31. The decline of America as the "sole superpower" is inevitable

The error in the Bush I adminstration is to think that the US could sustain sole superpower status after the collapse of the USSR. In a sense, the Anglo - American dominance of the West became unassailable for a short period of time.

However, China did not collapse, but took effective action at Tianamen Square and elsewhere to maintain internal order. Eventually, the traitorous Russian oligarchs were overcome by the FSB.

And in the Middle East, Islamic fundamentalism began a reaction to American hegemony in the region.

Now things are spiraling out of US control as passive agressive behaviour spreads via official and unofficial means throughout much of the globe.

There will be far too many obstinant smurfs for the US to herd effectively.

The historic progression will be from bipolar to unipolar to multipolar power politics leading up to then next series of global wars mid-century.

[leeroysphitz]

50. Bookmarking. See you in 2050!

[FarCenter]

58. The probability that I will exist in 2050 is extremely small.

[JDPriestly]

66. And our economy will suffer increasingly harsher realities.

We don't produce much of anything the world really wants other than military stuff and maybe a little GMO food that is eaten only by the desperate.

So, we are going to face some huge economic hurdles.

It is important that we blame those who mismanaged our economy in the first place -- the military/industrial complex and the multinationals who shipped our manufacturing capacity overseas.

[FarCenter]

69. Our service economy is only sustainable if our military can impose US suzerainty on the rest.

Domestically the service economy of finance, insurance, real estate, etc. works because contracts are enforceable and the police can haul you in front of a judge.

Internationally the service economy works because the US military can break or take your stuff.

So the ability of a 4th rate country like Ecuador to thumb their nose at the US over Snowden is a dagger at the heart of our prosperity.

[JDPriestly]

71. We need to rethink our economic strategy.

The dominance of our financial sector is a really bad sign of a crumbling economic infrastructure.

We have to do what every nation has to do -- make and produce most of our own stuff and our own food. We have become an import economy which means we are dependent on secure trade routes for our daily bread, the socks and shoes we wear and the coats we wrap ourselves in during the winter.

That is a far greater threat to our country than the terrorists ever could be. But it is a huge source of strength for the multinational companies that import our necessities to us and that either through investment networks or other means actually own and control the military/industrial production that still, to a small extent, exists in within our borders.

We are completely dependent on our military power. We have to have military power just to insure that shipments of fabric for making clothes get imported into our country.

I can't imagine that we could be any weaker economically than we are. But the media in general never talks about this.

[FarCenter]

73. It's actually a weakness of our multinational companies

Their cash is sequestered in foreign financial institutions. Their most recent investments and newest assets are located abroad. If the S&P 500's foreign assets were nationalized by foreign governments, our economy would collapse.

The only deterrent is to declare any country which does so, such as Cuba, Iran or Venezuela, to be part of the axis of evil and to exert economic sanctions and ultimately military sanctions if those fail.

[JDPriestly]

74. Precisely. We are unwilling to be what we really are which is not nearly

as rich a country as we would like to think. We simply cannot afford the military that we have.

We need things that strengthen us economically more than we need the military. I'm not saying we don't need a military. We do, but we should limit it to defending our 50 states and territories and not try to meddle in other countries so much. And here we are getting involved in Syria. Do we need that? No. Do we need allies? Yes. But we don't need to have so many bases in our allies' countries. Germany is not likely to face an invasion in the near future for example.

[FarCenter]

77. Yes, but we are like a cat stuck in a tree - can we climb down before we fall or starve to death

At the end of the Reagan adminstration, we were half way up the tree. Under the influence of PNAC, the neo-cons, and the Bush II adminstration, we have climbed to the top.

I doubt that there is a safe way down.

[John2]

111. I don't

frett about this at all. If people need something, they will work and support their own needs. The problem are a few people trying to claim the production of other people. I doubt people like Mitt Romney can fix his own car. Some of them can't even fix their own breakfast.

[Harmony Blue]

37. This High school dropout

is making the administration look like a bunch of amateur losers.

[flamingdem]

42. Hong Kong dumped a headache. They were sheltering him so he didn't exactly

"leave of his own accord".

When the state has you in an apartment it's not the same as being independent.

[George II]

43. Nice when "democrats" begin rooting for one of the most authoritarian and ruthless.....

....dictatorships in the world.

[Ichingcarpenter]

46. You need to read up on Hong Kong vs China

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong#Human_rights

[George II]

63. Yep, a model of human right protections:

There are concerns over the freedom of assembly which is restricted by the Public Order Ordinance.

The police has been occasionally accused of using heavy-handed tactics towards protestors and questions are asked towards the extensive powers of the police.

As to the right of privacy, covert surveillance remains the major concern.

There is a lack of protection for gay men and lesbians due to the absence of a sexual orientation discrimination law, though there are currently no laws that criminalize homosexuality per se.

There are also comments regarding a lack of protection for labour rights.

If you think that the government of Hong Kong is completely independent of influence from the Communist government, you're kidding yourself.

[sibelian]

91. Jesus Christ.

scrape,scrape,scrape,scraaaaape...

[Jamastiene]

93. Are you attempting to describe HK or the U.S.A.?

Your post reads like you are describing the USA.

[George II]

116. That came directly out of the link about HK Human Rights supplied by Ichingcarpenter

[treestar]

54. Really ! I guess China will stop hacking and spying now!

[Spitfire of ATJ]

55. See my post above (#53)

[DallasNE]

59. If Snowdon Departed Hong Kong "through a lawful and normal channel"

Then there would be no reason to issue a statement.

That China would slow walk the American request to extradite was fully expected and for the very purpose of whisking him out of Hong Kong.

Next, we need to learn whether Booz Allen internal security for company PC networks is really this rotten or if Snowden gave himself the security to data mine the PC network, exposing woeful oversight on the part of Booz Allen. Booz Allen cannot be left off the hook, nor can the NSA for not auditing Booz Allen internal security. This is the untold part of this whole story.

[SunSeeker]

61. +1

[davidpdx]

112. This is something a lot of people on DU are overlooking

There needs to be an investigation on background checks given to the employees of contractors. Are the backgrounds legitimate or are they being faked? A review of all security clearances needs to be done, but especially Snowden's. Did he have the proper background check? Not many seem to give two shits about that part of it.

[Lugal Zaggesi]

117. Yeah

sounds like he lied when he answered the question about "Would you be upset and take any illegal actions if you found out that your Government was committing a huge crime, such as lying about the reasons for starting a war, or torturing innocent peasants in a Third World country, or spying on everything that anyone says or types on any electronic communications in the Land of the Free ?

Because if you have any morals whatsoever, put down your pen and quietly walk out of this job interview process.
Thank you."

That's what they got Daniel Ellsberg on, lying on his promises to RAND Corporation for not disclosing a massive coverup about the Vietnam War.

BTW, security clearances are given by the US Government, not the contractors themselves.

[DallasNE]

118. Security Clearances

Depends on what you mean by that. Booz Allen did not perform Snowdon's security check, nor did a previous employer. Instead the government hired another contractor to process the SF-86. Technically it may be a government employee that has the final signature on the security clearance but it is not the government performing the actual work as that is being done by a contractor hired for such purposes.

[Lugal Zaggesi]

120. Snowden had Top Secret clearance

There is no way DoD subcontracted out that process.

It requires MUCH more than a "Questionnaire for National Security Positions".
They'll have people out in the field talking to neighbors where you grew up, talking to friends and teammates and roommates from college, etc. - these things cost 10's of $thousands and take many months.

(then again, I got my clearance decades ago - maybe after Cheney's report about "privatizing" the military and the national security apparatus, before Halliburton hired him to help them do just that, they HAVE contracted out the field investigators and the clearance process... I left that world)

The truth is, no matter how careful the Government is, it can't predict how a single individual will react when they find out extraordinary secrets.

Maybe if they took three years instead of six months - and put the person in an "experimental situation" where they didn't know they were being evaluated - they could make a much better psychological profile, but then it would take forever to staff up any project.

[davidpdx]

119. I had read something that said that the background checks had been contracted out

Either way we need to make sure only the appropriate people are being security clearances.

[WillyT]

62. K & R !!!

[DirkGently]

70. So much for "He's stupid for going to HK." n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

76. Shorter version....

[darkangel218]

82. LMAO!!!!!

[Jamastiene]

94. That should be a DUzy...

[liberal N proud]

78. How did he get a Visa so fast?

It takes 4 or more weeks to get a Visa to travel to countries like China and Russia under the best conditions.

[darkangel218]

83. I believe he's under political asylum aplication right now

Not a visa. That's why he can travel with a revoked passy.

[Ichingcarpenter]

84. Do I need a visa to visit Hong Kong?

A: Visitors from most countries can enter Hong Kong without a visa for periods of seven to 180 days, depending on nationality


Source: http://www.discoverhongkong.com/eng/plan-your-trip/know-hong-kong/frequently-asked-questions.jsp#ixzz2X4Z3OLwi


He's in transit
in Moscow airport no visa needed either but can't leave the airport.



you need to get out more


LOL

[idwiyo]

101. If he is in transit only, he likely doesn't need to have visa.

[blkmusclmachine]

99. .

.

[DeSwiss]

109. K&R

"I don't mind being accused of being an 'escapist.' On a planet that increasingly resembles one huge Maximum Security prison, the only intelligent choice is to plan a jail break." ~Robert Anton Wilson

[center][/center]

[DeSwiss]

110. K&R

"I don't mind being accused of being an 'escapist.' On a planet that increasingly resembles one huge Maximum Security prison, the only intelligent choice is to plan a jail break." ~Robert Anton Wilson

[center][/center]