We are a messed up country. 44 states punish the victim of Domestic Violence

[diabeticman]

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/06/20/2190691/domestic-violence-employment-discrimination/




Last week, Carie Charlesworth, a teacher in California and a victim of domestic violence, was fired from her job because her abusive husband invaded the school parking lot and put the school on lockdown. While her abuser was sent to prison, she was also punished for his crime by losing her employment.

The school’s action -– firing her because she is a victim of domestic abuse –- is sadly legal in most states. Just six, Connecticut, Hawaii, Illinois, New York, Oregon, and Rhode Island, have laws on the books that bar employment discrimination against victims of domestic abuse or sexual assault, according to an up-to-date document tracking these laws from Legal Momentum. State Senators in California introduced a non-discrimination bill in February, which has been referred to committee.

Illinois and Hawaii, as well as New York City and Westchester County, go further to mandate that employers offer victims reasonable accommodations so that they can stay at work: “things like allowing you to change your work telephone number or changing a shift so someone can’t stalk you and find you,” Michelle Caiola, a senior staff attorney at Legal Momentum, told ThinkProgress. Fourteen states protect victims who need to take time off of work to go to counseling, court, or seek medical attention due to their abuse.

_______________________________________________________________________

(Words cannot express.)

[pipoman]

1. She wasn't fired

"because she is a victim of domestic abuse", she was fired because her bad decision in mates put the students at risk. If I have a child in her classroom I don't need to wonder if her crazy husband is going to go in and take out her and anyone else he wishes. I have known far too many women who seek out the 'bad boys' because that is what gets them going..while certainly not always the case, it does happen with some regularity and every woman and 'good guy' knows it. I had a grade school teacher who was a local outlaw biker's old lady..the guy had been in and out of jail and prison his whole life...her decision to put herself in that position shouldn't endanger students. Of coarse there are similar incidents with people which is no fault of the victim. These should be looked at on a case by case basis. To blanket state that domestic abuse victims should or shouldn't have their jobs protected regardless the domestic situation they find themselves in is contrary to the safety of the school and students, imo..

[cali]

4. this is one of the most disturbing and disgusting posts I've seen in a while

it's pure blame the victim.

shame on you.

[pipoman]

9. As stated, some victims aren't to blame..

some are truly the victims of bad people, some make decisions knowingly which puts them in bad positions..to claim otherwise is more a claim that women are too stupid to see consequences of being involved with people who are bad....which is far more demeaning for the masses who aren't.

Another example is some years ago I interviewed around 20 Aryan Brotherhood members in federal prisons. One member told me about a head start school teacher he had been corresponding (graphically) with for 5 years and they planned to hook up upon his release. She began corresponding with him while he was serving time for 2 murders while committing a bank robbery. Who's fault would it be if he did something crazy after his release? She would have no blame because she was the victim? You are denying that some women have a thing for 'bad boys'? I'm not saying they can't do what they like, but certainly a grown woman should have better sense than to woo a federal prisoner or gang member if they want safety and security.

[cali]

13. wow. "some victims aren't too blame". bzzzt wrong. No expert in the field

would ever back up that sicko disgusting claim.

sick shit.

[pipoman]

19. Really?

So 'no expert' would agree that a person romancing a bank robbing murderer should suspect that that bank robbing murderer might be violent and/or crazy? That romancing that murdering bank robber might be a bad decision? Complete nonsense..

[cali]

23. really. and you're making up stupid scenarios won't change that

yes, experts might say justifiably that choosing to be with a bank robbing murderer would be a bad choice, but no they wouldn't blame the abuse on the woman.

Anyhoo, that's fucking not the case in most instances of domestic violence. obviously. and no, blaming the victim is not something any expert does.

[pipoman]

34. They would blame the bad decision on the bad decision maker..

if they don't the bad decision maker could go on to continue making bad decisions..the trith hurts sometimes and every therapist I have ever known makes sure their client is looking through clear lenses..not doing the same thing over and over expecting different results..

[TheMadMonk]

77. Unfortunately, they are not made up scenarios.

Except in as much as the scenario is a composite of many.

And anyhoo, it is also an unfortunate fact of life, that for many reasons, victims of abuse either return to their abusers at the first opportunity, or enter into new relationships with people who are just as abusive as their previous partners.

And all that said, I'll chew on dingleberries, before allowing that that is a valid reason for summary dismissal. However, I would allow that it is potential reason for a thorough INDEPENDENT evaluation of both parties. A victim who has a victim's mindset is highly unlikely to make a good teacher, and is all to likely to be victimised by their students as well as future partners. They should be gently encouraged, AND given every possible assistance to find employment elsewhere.

On the other side of the coin, an abuser who can (or will) not be disabused of the idea that they have a right to OWN another human being has absolutely NO PLACE IN A FREE SOCIETY. Give them a good solid taste of what it's like to have every last detail of their life dictated by others, and if they can't learn, let them die as they would have others live. NOT FREE.

[bettyellen]

66. "of coarse" they aren't!

[janlyn]

52. Seriously?????

By your post you show your ignorance of domestic violence. That's not necessarily your fault as your thoughts are the prevailing mindset. So you think that domestic violence is a blue collar, low rent crime. I hate to burst your bubble but, there is no class line when it comes to domestic violence. I am a SURVIVOR of domestic violence, as well as an advocate. A women can be married to a man with a 6 figure income and still get the crap beat out of her.

And most states have the attitude you have, that somehow its the womans fault for being in the relationship. The violence starts most often with mental abuse. Designed to keep the woman under control, alienated from friends and family and totally dependent on their abuser.
Until we as a nation change the " bitch deserved it attitude" nothing will change!!

[heaven05]

65. +

10000

[pipoman]

68. I didn't say a single thing about

class...my perspective is that of a person who spent many years talking to both victims of abuse or were abusers...or accused of abuse. Most were upper middle or higher income people. Some abuse victims absolutely get blind sided, and in fairness I don't know the specifics of this case. From my experience those who are unaware of bad pasts, or who's spouse turns into someone else after the marriage, are by far the minority. Most victims I have spoken to were either abused during their per-marital relationship, knew of abuse allegations or convictions, or married after a very short relationship.

The victim is the victim regardless the circumstances, and the abuser should be punished and is a shithead..the victim may or may not be culpable through bad decisions..no less a victim...I'm not sure in this case it matters if she is or isn't. How would you feel about your children being in the classroom with a teacher whose significant other is publicly threatening her safety?

[heaven05]

64. not

all relationships start out bad. Most don't. Yet there is a 50% divorce rate which tells me the stress this society puts on couples. If you don't truly love each other as friends, it can end badly. Who's to know. To, in this case immediately say this teacher made a wrong choice is problematic, to say the least about your judgement of this teacher. The aryan idiot marrying someone is not even part of what you said in your first post. You blamed the teacher and knew NOTHING of that relationships dynamic. I totally disagree with you and you moralistic judgmental attitude toward this teacher. I hope she stays safe.

[pipoman]

67. If you re-read what I wrote

Different circumstances would evoke different responses by me as an employer. As in my true example, if I knew a person on my staff had made a ridiculous decision in a personal relationship which could endanger the residents I have responsibility for, it would be my duty to dismiss the person in the interests of the residents. With all of the mostly completely justified outrage over school shootings, it is freaking mind blowing to hear so many people wish to throw caution to the wind in this case...

Oh, and you would be just peachy with your child or grandchild in her classroom?

[bunnies]

7. It must be a great gift to be able to tell how a person will behave...

for the rest of his or her life. Clearly, when my then estranged husband when ape-shit and came to the bar I worked at, I should have been fired for my poor choice in mates which then, endangered the patrons. Right? Oh, but then again, he had a harley so maybe I should have known he'd turn out to be one of the "bad boys". Right? Or maybe I just should have stayed inside, locked in my house, because after he became violent he *could* have followed me anywhere, endangered anyone. Right? I picked him, so that means I wanted to have my ass kicked, Right?

Lucky you to have never been the victim of domestic violence. It appears that you don't have a clue what the hell youre talking about.

[pipoman]

16. It doesn't require telepathy to know someone

with a violent history might be violent. As stated, not all victims of domestic abuse, but certainly some women do just that...expecting different results. I'm merely stating that if this is the case, maybe the teacher should find a different line of work...if not, the victim should receive more leeway than someone who knew, or should have known they were making a bad decision..

[bunnies]

20. Where did it say that her abuser had a history of violence

that she would have been able to refer to? Guess what. Turns out my ex-husband did have a history of violence before me which I was not aware of. Do you think I should have been fired for what he did at my place of employment?

[pipoman]

22. Where did I say she did?

" I'm merely stating that if this is the case, maybe the teacher should find a different line of work...if not, the victim should receive more leeway than someone who knew,

Seems pretty clear, I said no such thing..

[cali]

24. you immediately lit into blaming the victim which says everything about your mentality

it's inexcusable and disgusting to blame the victim.

[pipoman]

26. Clearly,

the only victims I blame are stupid people who knowingly get into relationships with people they know are bad. Claiming every victim is the same and none are paying the price for their own stupidity diminishes the pain and suffering of those who truly do end up in bad situations through no fault of their own.

[pipoman]

25. And, are you saying

someone who knowingly gets involved with a violent ass should be able to bring his/her shit to a public school and claim absolute victimhood? It is disgusting to those who truly did end up in a bad situation through no fault of their own..

As for you, I have no idea whether it would have been something most people would have reasonably known before getting married to another person or not..

[cali]

27. this is all such a steaming pile that you're depositing

first of all, YOU have no fucking way of knowing if this even is the situation, but you keep insinuating that it is. sick, sick, sick.

Your victim blaming here is no fucking better than the crap about how rape victims shouldn't get drunk or wear "provcative" clothes.

Your victim blaming crap has no business on DU.

[pipoman]

31. You obviously are blinded by something or

are reading challenged..

[bunnies]

30. Youre joking, right?

How the HELL could I have known that he had a history of violence? Please enlighten me. I would LOVE to know that. Should I have injected him with truth serum and demanded to know if he'd ever beaten a woman before?

And have you given any thought at all to just how difficult it can be to get away from an abuser once the abuse actually starts?

There is not a single women out there who chooses men in order to be beaten. Not one.

[pipoman]

33. In your frenzy

you are not able to read and comprehend apparently..I clearly stated, "I have no idea whether it would have been something most people would have reasonably known" but you seem to be stating that nobody could reasonably know such a thing, which is nonsense.

And apparently no women ever make stupid decisions about mates...that is an insult to women who don't make stupid decisions..who don't choose to knowingly get involved with violent assholes.

[bunnies]

36. Yeah. I got that. You have no idea.

But I do. And there was no way to know. You, apparently, aren't sure if thats the case or not. So Im asking you: what were the options I had to inform myself? What in the world would lead you to believe there are ways in which I could have had such information? Or is it simply that you cant accept no one ever really knows how anyone else will behave. To claim otherwise is just silly.

Everyone makes stupid decisions. Glad to know youre an expert on whats insulting to women. Certainly claiming that some of us want to get beaten isnt one of those things.

[dsc]

39. I don't know if it says so in that article

but previous ones pointed out he did indeed have a humungous history of such behavior in several states.

[bunnies]

42. Thanks for the info.

I wonder what the history involved. The other story linked in the thread doesnt really give many details either. Maybe she didnt know about his history... or maybe he was hard to get away from. Either way, I really feel for this woman. This asshole turned her & her childrens lives upside down, exactly as he probably wanted.

[dsc]

45. I feel for her as well

but I don't know what the school is supposed to do. He is apparently going to be released soon.

[bunnies]

47. We should have an island for people like him.

Where they can all go and beat the hell out of each other. Id vote for that.

[dsc]

48. It is inexcusable to me that he isn't facing a lot more jailtime

but he isn't and the school has a real hobson's choice.

[leftyohiolib]

55. we did have one it's called australia but i dont think we can dump our criminals there anymore

[pipoman]

73. It would be like Disneyland

no violence at all...from my experience, most wife beaters are as tame as a kitten when confronted by another man. The wife beaters I have met who will also fight with men were mostly in prison or charged with a serious crime...

[raccoon]

54. Well said! nt

[uppityperson]

49. She was fired for "her bad decision" = blaming her for his abusive behavior. Plain and simple. eom

[Savannahmann]

53. Her "bad choice in mates"

Was incarcerated at the time of the decision to fire her.

Frankly, I find this insulting. Many of us make bad decisions, and we are surprised by personality quirks or worse in a mate we have chosen. You make it sound like anyone who was abused, should know they were going to be by their "mates" and deserve whatever fallout there is.

Nuts. Ridicules, outrageous. Society is best served when we come together to help one of ours who is the victim of any violence. You can put whatever reason behind the alternative, the safety of others, but again, the victim is ostracized with logical sounding excuses, but ostracized just the same.

You may count me in absolute opposition to that train of thought, now, and forever.

[duffyduff]

60. I can't believe somebody on this board justifying firing a VICTIM

I hope somehow she can get her job back or at least her reputation back.

Lots of people make "bad choices" in mates, but they aren't penalized in their JOBS for it.

[pipoman]

72. FFS..most people

aren't surrounded by 100 people's children. The administrators are responsible for the kid's safety...what don't you understand about that?

[Savannahmann]

74. Sadly, I can.

It is said to be careful of what you hate, because you will become like that which you hate. Some of our party, some of our supporters have become more authoritarian than the Republicans in an effort to defeat the Republicans. They have become more unforgiving in an effort to show that the Republicans are not alone in caring about security issues. Once you have sacrificed civil liberties on the altar of security, what is a little more? What is ostracizing the victim when compared with Guantanamo Bay? So a woman loses her job, fired for the actions of one she has resisted showing great strength. If we are willing to sacrifice privacy, dignity, and our constitutionally guaranteed rights, what more is a woman's job? After all, what happens if the mad man she married, and divorced, comes to the school.

We have become so determined to resist Republicans, to oppose Republicans on every issue we have forgotten who and what we are and what we stand for. We sell out our beliefs, at first expensively, and later, for any loose change that happens to be laying around.

Sadly, this is why I am not surprised. This is why I fight so hard for principles, because without the principles, without those ideals to anchor us, we are merely another shade of the political party we oppose, and our argument becomes as asinine. We are evil too, but just not as evil as they are. We are greedy corporate shills too, just not quite as greedy as they are. We are authoritarian snoops invading your privacy, but not nearly as bad as they are. We are anti woman in our policy towards victims too, but not as bad as they are. Democrats, wrong on the issues, but just not as wrong as the Republicans.

[treestar]

56. She still should not be fired

for "bad decision in mates." That's just wrong. No one can be completely accurate on that question and there's no indication he'd come to the school - that could happen to anyone, by anyone, fortunately rarely. It could be a woman who is the crazy one, too.

[pipoman]

69. So you're cool with

your children in the classroom with a person who's life is being threatened? I'll bet you'd be outraged if he shot up the classroom and found out that the school officials knew she was being threatened?

[treestar]

75. He's in jail

So there's more danger from unknowns like Lanza or other teachers who made bad choices in mates.

[pipoman]

81. Maybe you haven't seen this...

we understand from court files that he may be released as early as next fall.

Source: http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/holy-trinity-school-el-cajon-san-diego-teacher-fired-211244611.html#ixzz2X6rshcSA

This story is about the school not offering a contract beginning in September 2013-14 school year.

Now, are you going to answer the simple question in the post you responded to, or just go away like everyone else I've asked in this sub-thread?

So you're cool with your children in the classroom with a person who's life is being threatened?

[Cal Carpenter]

79. The person being threatened is *not* the problem

I can't imagine how your mind twists it around that way.

FFS.

[pipoman]

80. Hmm, you didn't answer the very simple question..

So you're cool with your children in the classroom with a person who's life is being threatened?

Frankly I can't imagine someone in this day and age on this board not agreeing that the safety of perhaps hundreds of kids doesn't outweigh the job security of one teacher...there's your FFS..

[duffyduff]

59. She was fired because she was a domestic violence victim.

You can't seem to understand you are making a distinction without a difference.

She should NOT be fired because of the actions of a husband.

[pipoman]

70. Even if her husband has

threatened to kill her? Maybe you're good with your kids in her classroom, plenty of people wouldn't be ok at all with that..Is it worth the risk regardless if she made a bad decision or was blind sided?

[heaven05]

63. you

are some piece of work.

[LuvNewcastle]

2. What could be the possible justification for this?

I don't see how a company could get away with firing someone for something that is completely out of her control. It's ridiculous that we have to pass laws to keep employers from doing this to abuse victims. Even without such a law she should be able to sue that company for wrongful termination or discrimination or something.

[justanaverageguy]

5. I own a company that employs around 20 people at any given time.

It doesn't happen often but I've had to run off the occasional crazy boyfriend and even 1 crazy girlfriend who wanted her boyfriend's paycheck given to her. Now I've never had to fire someone for it, but If I did have an employee in which it became a pattern and regular disruption to my business I could get to the point where I would fire the employee over it even though it is quite likely out of his/her control.

[LanternWaste]

11. Thus damning the victim twice-over, and kicking the problem down the road to the next employer.

"I would fire the employee over it even though it is quite likely out of his/her control...."

Thus damning the victim twice-over, and kicking the problem down the road to the next employer. However, as long as it's not our problem, we may easily repress the guilt and shame for out actions.

God bless America...

[Egalitarian Thug]

40. And quite revealing of just how valuable this employer feels his employees really are.

Just another imminently replaceable object to be discarded when it gets too expensive or troublesome.

[pipoman]

76. He has a responsibility to his 20 employees

to allow them a safe work environment and not have his business disrupted. What? To hell with his other employees who may be put in danger by one worker's jealous, abusive, maybe even dangerous spouse? Really?

I find it incredible so many here can't look at the responsibility of the administration of the school, to above all else, protect the safety of the children they are responsible for in almost any way possible..parents have demanded it and it is legislated to the degree of a child not being allowed to take a vitamin or aspirin..wishing to endanger perhaps hundreds of children in the name of what?

[Egalitarian Thug]

83. The apparent absence of awareness that the contract between employer and employee

works, or should work, in both directions is just sad.

It's not you, it's just about everybody in the 'industrialized world'. That you sell yourselves so cheaply and with so little regard for your fellows well being. If you were literal slaves, you might band together to take back your lives, but you're so well conditioned that the thought never even occurs to you.

We might well live to hear of someone's last words, if fact be, "I wish I'd spent more time at the office".

[Pelican]

43. It's not his problem and it shouldn't be...

He is trying to run a successful business and the school is trying to successfully educate children without having to worry, within reasonable boundaries, about some crazy asshole coming in and causing a problem.

I'll be the first to admit that you can never be 100% sure that an issue won't come up. What you can do, is react when there is a clearly defined threat to the organization you are responsible for.

[LuvNewcastle]

14. I guess I could understand if the employee stayed in

the abusive relationship and the spouse continued to come to your business and disrupt. If I owned a business, though, that would only happen once, because I would get a restraining order against that spouse and simply call the cops if they ever stepped on my property again.

I've had friends over the years who I've helped to leave abusive relationships, and most of them went back to the abuser. I'm leery about helping anyone ever again. I've put myself in danger by getting involved in those situations, and usually it turned out that it was a waste of time and effort. I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who continue to stay with an abuser when they can get out of the situation.

That article left out a lot of information that's essential in determining what happened there. Each one of these cases is different and must be judged on its own. I guess my initial response was a bit hasty, but I think in most cases companies shouldn't penalize someone for something a crazed lover does.

[treestar]

58. Why not get the crazy mate for trespassing?

[pipoman]

84. So he'll go to jail for 15 minutes and get out even more enraged?

[ancianita]

3. Proof that institutionalized sexism and Marilyn French's claim for the War Against Women is on.

[Bay Boy]

6. I can see that there are two sides to this issue...

...as others have said; I would be VERY nervous about having a child in a classroom of a teacher who has a spouse/boyfriend who has exhibited behavior like this.

And on the other hand it certainly is unfair to the teacher to lose her job over something she can't control.

The solution of moving the teacher isn't a very good one because it would be pretty easy in most school systems to track down a teacher and figure out where they are at.

[bunnies]

8. The solution is to put the abusive asshole in jail...

Far, far away from the victim.

[Bay Boy]

10. But unfortunately...

...they have to eventually let him out.

[bunnies]

12. This is why there needs to be rehabilitation.

Serious rehabilitation. Which, unfortunately, is seriously lacking in our jails and prisons. That is, if the abuser even goes to jail to begin with. It never ceases to amaze me the kind of things that go unpunished when it comes to this.

[Bay Boy]

15. Rehabilitation... yeah that'll happen when....

...bunnies can balance pancakes on their heads.

[Puzzledtraveller]

18. C'mon

you didn't know that when you are released from jail you are de facto rehabilitated? There's no recidivism, that's a myth.

[bunnies]

21. heh.

You should see what I can do with a waffle!

[Lurks Often]

17. I understand why the school took the action

They determined that the welfare and safety of the students and the rest of the faculty was the priority. Unfortunately that means Carie Charlesworth is out of a job and that she has to find a new school for her children.

http://www.10news.com/news/carie-charlesworth-teacher-fired-from-catholic-school-because-of-abusive-ex-husband-tells-her-story-on-gma-holy-trinity-0614

Per the link, the husband has a 20 year history of domestic violence, so the possibility of him showing up at the school again would seem to be likely. Also per the link, parents of other students their agree with the solution.

I don't see any good solutions here:
If the school allows her to keep her job and the husband comes back and hurts her, a member of the faculty or any of the children, the school is going to lose big in the inevitable civil suit.


Personally I think the spouse needs to go away for a good 10-20 years and lose all custodial rights. That would allow her to start life over in another state and maybe with a new name.

[cali]

28. I agree with you. the students' and faculty and staff interests outweighed that of the

teacher's.

I also think that the abuser should be behind bars.

[bunnies]

32. She got fired simply because he "showed up"...

wow.

[Lurks Often]

35. So you think the school should be allowed to risk the safety of the faculty and students

on the chance that he won't hurt someone next time?

Because that is what it boils down to, allow the teacher and her children to stay and they risk both them and others being hurt the next time the ex-husband, who has a 20 year history of domestic violence, shows up or remove the ex-wife and her children from the situation and the reason for the ex-husband to show up at the school.

[bunnies]

37. Was he a threat to the students or faculty?

I'd think a restraining order might have been a good first move. I tend to come down on the side of protecting the victim in domestic violence cases. And Im not sure I agree with firing someone because of something that *might* happen.

[Lurks Often]

38. She had a restraining order against him

The school has to look at worst case possibilities in a situation like this, they can not and should not make decisions regarding faculty & student safety based on guessing or hoping a man with a 20 year history of domestic violence won't hurt someone the next time.

I am sympathetic to the teacher and I wish there was a way she could keep her job AND guarantee the safety of the students and faculty, but I don't see one and I can't blame the school for making the decision they did. The school is responsible for making sure everybody there is safe and they are the ones that will be held liable if someone gets hurt.

[bunnies]

41. Wouldnt that line of thinking make her...

completely unemployable now? I mean, why would any business want to take on a liability like that? When my ex came to my workplace and went apeshit on everybody... my co-workers rallied around me and had my back. Guess I was lucky.

[Lurks Often]

44. Possibly

Although the fact that her employer was a school and full of children resulted in a decision that might not be made by another employer.

I think any employer would have to weigh the possible risks to their employees or otherwise decide at what point an employee's personal issues impacting the workplace become too much of a detriment to the employer.

Sometimes there are no good solutions, just less bad solutions.

[bunnies]

46. Yeah.

This sure does seem to be one of those 'less bad' cases. Too bad we cant just rid the world of violent assholes, eh? It would be such an improvement.

[Lurks Often]

50. Don't put money on that,

the human race has treated each other poorly for thousands of years and I don't expect to see that change in my lifetime

[bunnies]

51. Its sad.

I had a hippie moment thinking about that the other day. Wondering... maybe love really is all the world needs. What a different place it would be if everybody cared for one another. It wouldnt even have to be love. Just care about people. I came the the conclusion that it really is that simple. Simple and impossible. *sigh*

[undergroundpanther]

29. sociopaths like to blame

the people they've victimized.There are too many callous even abusive people in positions of power. If courts are full of abusive callous hypocrites and sociopaths "protecting people like themselves(sympathizing with abusers),then we need to remove them from power.This country has too many narcissists,sociopaths and authoritarian personalities in it,now it can't function.Sociopath behavior is incompatible with human well being or social well being.

[treestar]

57. Why'd they fire her, he's in jail

He won't be coming back. Illogical on their part.

[duffyduff]

62. I read that piece, and it's a private school

Private schools get away with murder, and she is an "at-will" employee.

She should sue, but now her reputation is trashed and won't be able to get a job anywhere teaching because of this.

[Liberal_in_LA]

78. k&r