Edward Snowden is an opportunist

[gholtron]

that pray on conspiracy minded people that think the government is always bad and is out to get them. I am so sick of hearings about how much of a hero he is. In my book, heros don't cut and run. Cowards do. Dr. Martin Luther King is a hero. He didn't cut and run and his life was in danger. Heros stay and fight. And this bullshit about how he is risking his life to inform us about what everyone already knew what the Patriot Act was doing is not enough to make him a hero or whistle blower.There were three other whistle blowers that said basically the same thing a few years ago and they are alive. In the beginning he said that he didn't want this to be about him but yet he is giving interviews not only here but to the Chinese media. Eddie if you're reading this, if you didn't want this to be about you then you should have stayed anonymous. Where is the proof? Why not dump out all the information instead of bits and piece? Does this mean that he has taken classified information to another country? That tells me that he wants to stoke the fire once it dies down. It's almost like watching a cliff hanger to a movie. "To see what happens next tune in next time hear what Big Brother is doing" . He claims that he can tap into any phone conversation or read any emails but doesn't tell us HOW. Why should I believe ths guy? What's next Eddie? A book deal maybe a movie? Give me a fucking break.

[Earth_First]

1. "Why not dump out all the information instead of bits and pieces"

Wasn't this the *BIGGEST* complaint that those who cannot/will not support Bradley Manning have? ...that rather than vetting the information before releasing it, he dumped thousands of pages of information without knowing what was on those pages?

[Earth_First]

47. No response?

I wasn't expecting one...

[gholtron]

65. Here is my response

You said that he is vetting the information before releasing it. That means that it is possible that he has information that has nothing to do with the NSA spying stuff. That means that he is in a foreign country with possible classified information that if found by say the Chinese or Russians could prove damaging to the USA. What do you call a person that STEALS classified un-vetted information and is in a FOREIGN country with it? Hummmm there's a name for that. I'll let you ponder on it. Let me ask any conspiracy minded person out there this question. Why do you think that Vladimir Poo Poo and the Chinese are thinking of giving him asylum? I'll let you ponder on that. So if that is not true then he must have already vetted the information that he took that he plans to release because either that he is that stupid to bring such unvetted information with him or he has already had vetted the information and just going to dribble it out like I said. Now it is YOUR turn to respond to that.

[PSPS]

2. Don't forget the whole girlfriend thing. That's the last straw! Domestic spying must be OK then!1!

[gholtron]

4. What makes this guy a hero?

He said the same damn thing that three other people did.

[railsback]

11. I think he's a hero because he had a pole dancing girlfriend,

loves Ron Paul, and is attempting to be Chinese.

Something like that.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

13. He presented documentary evidence.

First one on these programs.

Also, if this is old news, why the apopolitic response from gov.

[gholtron]

22. So you're telling me

That this is the first time you heard that the NSA is collecting data?

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

29. No. I am telling you that this is the FIRST TIME docs have been produced

Official, TOP SECRET docs, that have not been denied by our gov.

[jeff47]

33. Nope. That was the leak 7 years ago. (nt)

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

34. You are simply misinformed then.

Go check your link again, I think you must have misinterpreted it.

Feel free to post it here to get a "2nd" pair of eyes on it, too.

[jeff47]

84. Nope. Documents were leaked to the NY Times in 2006.

But hey, why should the real world get in the way of declaring Snowden's sainthood?

[HangOnKids]

78. Please get back in your thread

Your OP is painful. I am waiting for some answers.

[jeff47]

28. He presented evidence for some of his claims.

He has failed to provide evidence for all of his claims. Coincidentally, those are the most incendiary claims.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

30. He presented documentation, and his own experience.

It's time for a debate, and I for one am glad we are having it, finally.

[jeff47]

32. Why, exactly, should I trust his experience?

We've all run into tons of people who say things based on their experience that turned out to be utterly and completely wrong.

And things like running to China and changing the details of his claims do not help me trust him.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

36. Well, he actually worked in intel for years, and produced documentation as well.

I think him leaving the country, so he could come out publicly was very wise, not only for his own safety, but also for us, as now we get to learn much more about not only his motives, but also about what exactly is going on.

[jeff47]

40. Again, he documented some of his claims. Not all of them.

Someone telling me the sky is blue doesn't mean I believe their theory about reptilian aliens controlling the world's governments.

I think him leaving the country

My problem is his selection of country. You could not choose a country with less privacy and more spying on it's people than China. If that was so reprehensible when the US does it, why would you run to a place much, much, much, much worse?

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

44. So, I guess you are willing to dismiss all because of that, but other find him very credible.

Having made my career in IT I haven't heard anything from him that I found suspect yet.

Actually, he didn't go to China mainland, he went to Hong Kong, and believe it or not their are differences, also he needed to pick a country with enough independence and strength, to actually give him shelter (if they choose to, I haven't heard them grant him asylum yet), and as far as spying goes, today it seems hard to top the US today.

[gholtron]

53. Why the hell does he needs asylum?

Again, three other TRUE whistle blowers said the same things and they are walking around FREE and still Saying what they said years ago.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

63. Because of political persecution, we have members of congress openly calling him a traitor.

Ah, you must mean the 3 men who have had their careers ruined, and their liberty threatened, by an out of control police state, that is known to torture, and considers it 'legal' to lock you up forever, without any charges, or hearings, and who will KILL YOU if they consider you a 'terrorist' or someone aiding terrorist, even if you are a "privileged" America, so theres all of that.

Keep in mind, I am not talking about communist China, the evil Russians, Iran, etc... I am talking about my beloved America, for christ's sake!

Where have you been for the past decade?

[gholtron]

67. OMG Really?

I mean Really?

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

71. how old are you?

really...

[gholtron]

72. Old enough to know a bunch of Crap when I hear it.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

73. thought so

thanks

[jeff47]

83. Really? You don't find some claims unbelievable?

Such as the hundreds of millions of conversations per day that would have to be recorded? That's not suspect just based on raw volume of data required? Yes, the NSA's building a very large datacenter, but it isn't built yet.

There are people who find the Iraq war cheerleaders are very credible.
There are people who find anti-vaxxers are very credible.
There are people who find creationists are very credible.
There are people who find all sorts of conspiracy nuts very credible.

Show me the proof. Not some bullshit about "experience".

Actually, he didn't go to China mainland, he went to Hong Kong

Guess what psudo city state is being continuously spied upon by China, far, far beyond what Snowden's NSA claims?

also he needed to pick a country with enough independence and strength, to actually give him shelter

Then Hong Kong is a terrible choice. Hong Kong would happily turn him over, complete with gift bow attached to his head. The only worse choice he could have made would have been the UK. Hell, Mexico and Canada would have been better choices.

and as far as spying goes, today it seems hard to top the US today.

Yeah, it's not like Snowden picked a country that's literally surrounded by "The Great Firewall of China" or anything.

Oh wait.....

If these arguments are supposed to be convincing, I strongly recommend you stop trying to "help" Snowden.

[HangOnKids]

3. Eddie Must Have Really Hurt You

Please take good care of yourself.

[Life Long Dem]

5. Edward Snowden is also a Teabagger

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/10/edward-snowden-ron-paul_n_3414992.html

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

15. I never heard of a tea bagger who had faith and hope in Obama.

If memory serves... those sort were against him from the start, or am I remembering that wrong?

[struggle4progress]

58. After donating to Ron Paul and refusing to vote for Obama, Snowden now feels oh-so-very-betrayed

that Obama didn't live up to all the high-hopes-and-expectations he had originally invested in his candidacy

Oh, yeah!

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

70. Snowden waited to release the documents, hoping Obama would bring change

Edward Snowden:

"Obama's campaign promises and election gave me faith that he would lead us toward fixing the problems he outlined in his quest for votes. Many Americans felt similarly. Unfortunately, shortly after assuming power, he closed the door on investigating systemic violations of law, deepened and expanded several abusive programs, and refused to spend the political capital to end the kind of human rights violations like we see in Guantánamo, where men still sit without charge.

more...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/18/edward-snowden-live-q-and-a-eight-things

A whole lot folks, even right here on DU, can relate to that.

Not sure why you are rolling around on the floor, laughing at this serious issue, but that may explain why it is you are having trouble understanding other peoples legitimate concerns... in your mind this is all just some kinda big joke, huh?

[struggle4progress]

85. Neh. That's a well-recognized libertarian gambit by now

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

87. "well-recognized" By who?

[Monkie]

64. does huffington post pay their writers now?

there are so many places to link from, why a site that took all the content produced "for free" and sell it to a megacorps for big bucks without sharing that with those that actually produced the content?

and how anyone could watch snowden speak, and then for example watch clapper at the hearings, and not find snowden a credible person is something i find strange.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

6. Ah yes, another member of the reinforcement crew has arrived.

[Whisp]

7. a DUer today said her tv is able to monitor her.

honest to gawd.

this is the kind of person that laps this conspiracy stuff up like a hungry puppy when it comes to death and apocalypses and destruction of society as we know it so Ron Paul can rise from the ashes. The panting in glee is shameful.

[railsback]

12. Someone should tell her to duct tape her tv

I hear that works.

[Summer Hathaway]

19. There is/was another political website

which got into some heavy-duty conspiracy theories regularly.

They actually had several discussion threads about how no one should register on DU3, because Skinner had reprogrammed the site in order to spy on its users. Their story was that with the new DU3 software, Skinner was able to track your every keystroke, even if you were on sites other than DU, or sending email.

Of course, there was great speculation as to what Skinner would be doing with this information - each theory more convoluted and far-fetched than the last one.

Thing is, many people there bought it hook, line and sinker. They never even questioned how Skinner was going to track every, single DUer's internet use and email, all day, every day.

I just bring this up to demonstrate how gullible people can be - especially those who pride themselves on being far more well-informed than the average person.

[struggle4progress]

62. I used to think that. But after months and months of watching TV nekkid with my phone number

stenciled on my chest, nobody ever called me asking for a date

My refrigerator doesn't seem to be bugged either

How am I ever going to meet that special someone?

[MNBrewer]

8. Bob? Bob Schieffer? Is that you?

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

9. If that was true, you would have never heard of him.

[backscatter712]

10. Oh look, another DU fascist!

Next he'll tell us that Snowden kidnapped the Lindbergh baby!

Better post faster. Those characters don't assassinate themselves.

[shenmue]

24. Somebody calls out Snowden and they're a fascist?

Hyperbole much?

[backscatter712]

39. You're out here protecting the honor of the American Stasi, are you not? n/t

[Katashi_itto]

46. +1

[gholtron]

75. Oh I'm sorry that I called your hero an Oportunist.

I should have called him a traitor. Who would steal classified information and flee to a foreign country with it? No wonder Putin and the Chinese are interested in him.

[HangOnKids]

76. Gee you have been gone so long

Signed up in 2008 and then got bored? Where is your proof about this:

"Who would steal classified information and flee to a foreign country with it?" please provide some links that this statement is true.

Got some proof? WAITING.

[gholtron]

86. Maybe you forgot how to use Google. Let me help you out there.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/17/edward-snowden-guardian-chat_n_3454379.html

http://www.policymic.com/articles/47327/edward-snowden-former-cia-employee-revealed-as-prism-whistleblower


http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/06/10/why-nsa-it-guy-edward-snowden-leaked-top-secret-documents/

He also said that there is MORE to come.

[Thinkingabout]

14. K & R

[MjolnirTime]

16. He's using stolen National Secrets to wage political war.

Utterly shameless.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

18. To inform the public. Only partisans feel that way.

[MjolnirTime]

21. that's why he leaked the info about spying on Medvedev right as Obama met with Putin??

yeah, right.

Snowden has an agenda.
And it is not Freedom.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

27. If that were true (personal gain/spy) you would have never heard of him. n/t

[shenmue]

25. Dingdingding

You win the prize.

[disidoro01]

17. I think

the problem is, he came 5 years too late. He would have been a hero. Or perhaps, the way the party is behaving, he came out 3 years too early.
I'm not sure but I think we have a problem of when he did it, not what he did.

[Kolesar]

20. Go GOP! eom

[shenmue]

23. How long did it take you to figure it out?

I saw the movie deal thing coming up Main Street.

[flamingdem]

26. When are the Paulbots gunna get their own website

Just sayin'

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. It's raining shit

This is a gale 5 shitstorm.

Hoping some sticks.

How about we talk of your and my civil rights and not the person? Nah, that means dealing with actual serious issues...instead, reach for the binky and the blankie...terrorists are under every bed.

[gholtron]

41. Since the time the internet and the computer was invented

You lost any type of privacy you had. If it not our government doing it, then it's some 15 yr old hacker. Your business is spread across so many servers. So what do you want to do? Disable the internet now?

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. That is a pretty weak argument

Real weak sauce.

Tell me does this 15 y/o hacker has the power of the state? That is just for starters.

By the way, I got a police scanner, part of work...not the cute app, an actual scanner. It's frequency range means I could, theoretically, listen to cell phone calls. In the early days of cell phones indeed you could...(and when I was a young EMT they were fun)

Why do you think that part of the radio stream was ahem..made private and your radio shack police scanner can't do that these days? There are good reasons for that. And trust me, radio is far older than the Internet.

Yup, I did that these days...it's a federal felony.

[gholtron]

48. Oh I see now.

It's ok for a 15 year old hacker or the Russians or maybe the Chinese to peek inside your computer but it better not be the US government. Ok I understand now. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. Not really

But you insist n conflating.

Actually, to parrot the if you have nothing to hide crowd, the Chinese and Russians are far more interested in our infrastructure and industrial espionage. Given I am a working journo, I got far more to fear from the NSA, as the AP showed to us.

[gholtron]

55. Such as WHAT?

That's what I don't get. What is the FEAR? Give me an example when the NSA or any government agency secret or not put anyone in jail or made them disappear or sent them to Guantanamo Bay? I want to believe you but you're not helping me. Example Occupy Wall Street. How many were arrested based on private communications and not by civil disobedience? Is there any documented proof? What about the three guys I wish I could remember their names, that actually told us what the NSA was doing years ago. Are they in jail?

[Marr]

35. Hey neat, a new employee.

Be sure to sign up for the seminar next week on paragraph breaks.

[treestar]

37. Good point re the other 3 guys still being alive

And still yakking about it in public. We still have our freedoms in spite of this silly database.

[gholtron]

51. And they are not in Guantanamo

Or any black ops prisons overseas. Wow imagine that.

[ohheckyeah]

74. You don't have to be ion Guantanamo to have your life screwed up

by the government.

You can find the consequences the three men suffered here:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/06/16/snowden-whistleblower-nsa-officials-roundtable/2428809/

How would you like to have your life ruined?

[davidn3600]

38. Today, heroes like MLK get beat by the cops and thrown in jail

Look what happened to OWS.

The government knows how to shut you up when you threaten the elite ruling corporate class.

[gholtron]

42. please share how the government

Wired tapped anyone's phone or email and put them in jail simply by just protesting? Do you know anyone that experienced that treatment? Oh you're saying it could happened.

[Marrah_G]

45. I see another one joined

[Puglover]

49. And a poopy head that abandons ballerinas.

Bastid!

[gholtron]

52. No she's with him now.

Course they will have to get a new pole though.

[Puglover]

57. Stay classy!

[gholtron]

61. oK, You're right

It won't happen again and thank you.

[99Forever]

54. So, since you don't like some guy...

... that means that the NSA isn't spying on almost everyone.



Wow, what a fucking relief!



You really are quite fucking awesome.

[gholtron]

59. I have a reason why I don't like this guy.

He is playing YOU. I believe he is out to make a name for himself. He is taking a serious issue at hand and using fear to drive the conspiracy minded people to make him into an Icon so he can sell books or make movies or just bask in the glory. This NSA stuff is serious and yes I do have an opinion on it. But when someone like this guy sees how he can whip up old news to make a name for himself by stoking fear and half truths then yes I DON"T FUCKING LIKE HIM.

[99Forever]

79. No, newbie.

The NSA and the police state is playing you and you are swallowing it all, hook, line, and sinker. Buying into character assassination is for naive suckers.

[gholtron]

82. Riddle me this.

What do you call a person that steals classified documents that can be damaging to the USA and is hiding in a foreign country with it? Oh that's right. You call him a hero. No wonder Putin and the Chinese are welcoming him in with open arms. I guess he would be a hero to them too.

[99Forever]

92. Riddle me this.

When did I call anyone "a hero?"

I'll be waiting for that quote.

(But you did look mighty awesome pummeling that strawman.)

Bwahahahahahahahahaha.

[Apophis]

56. I heard he steals candy from children too.

[Vinnie From Indy]

60. The SOB has BOXES in his fuckin' garage fer Christsakes!!!!!!

OP FAIL!

Cheers!

[Fumesucker]

66. TL;NP;DR

[bobduca]

68. NSA outsourcing astroturfing to foreign countries now?

WELCOME TO USA, HERE WE USE PUNCTUATION, IT MAKES EVERYTHING SO MUCH EASIER TO READ!

[gholtron]

69. Then don't read it if it that hard.

[HangOnKids]

77. It Isn't Hard Dear It Is Fucking Painful

Are you going to lay in the reality based community soon? Because that would be so perfect.

[gholtron]

80. You're still here?

Let me kick it up a notch. Y dont u go hid wear you're here roll is at in hung kon.

[Union Scribe]

81. Thank you for contributing your block of text to the debate. nt

[PufPuf23]

88. Edward Snowden is an opportunist and I am glad.

Snowden as a personality is irrelevant.

My heart hurts at how far off the rails of kindness my home, from USA to neighborhood, has jolted since my youth.

We are not living in a moral, legal, nor just system and the situation is getting worse.

Read your OP and be realistic with manners and humble.

Denial is not perceiving the pathologies between humanity and Earth and within humanity.

Do you know what it is to put your existence on the line for principal?

Do you know what it is to put your existence on the line for principal and lose?

[gholtron]

89. So what you're saying is

We should pin a medal on this guy? You've got to be kidding. So far, this guy lied. He released some documents that showed that the government had direct access to data from Google, Apple, Facebook, and Microsoft. Each one came out to say that is a complete lie. This guy suggest that he could listen to the phone calls without giving any information on how. This guy is in a foreign country with classified documents that he stole and is asking for asylum with it. I don't share your sense of humanity towards someone who uses a serious issue to make a name for himself.

[HangOnKids]

90. "you're sense of humanity "

What does this mean?

[gholtron]

91. I changed it.

Feel better now.